Theory crafting the celestial monk

[Vish]

Reaper
Str 20
Dex 72
Con 63
Wis 76
Cha 30
Hp 1888
Hamp 130
Sp 340
Pos 208
Ki /450
AC 197
Dodge 39/39
Fort 93
Reflex 100
Will 97
Bab 20/25
Doublestrike 57
Melee speed 15
Melee power 145
Sr 30
Fort 218
Prr 203
Mrr 50

Stunning fist 101
Dire charge 106
Tomb of jade 106
Quivering palm 60

Notes
Resolute to 7 slots. Took about 2 months of farming ravenloft.
Slotted with attack damage from one against many.
This is looking like the final build.
Got furious gem and slotted Gulthias. Work on that one now.
Running r1 raids and r2 sagas.
Reaper pt to 36
Guild to 67. Pushing for 70 new ship.

[Vish]

Hotbars
1 Stunning fist, ww, attack, haste, mp, thick skinned, shadow veil, void dragon, dire charge, blitz
2 Qp, tomb,, reaper2, ki shout, wings4, empty body,, leap
3 , jade strike, eagle claw, unbalance strike, dismissing,,,PDK, sneak, search
4 Fist of light, finisher, remove curse, green reaper eyes, meditation3, whole body,, unstoppable, greater pin, jibbers
2 bars of items and scrolls for hot swap
Scrolls teleport, true seeing, greater restore, heal, resurrection

2 vertical bars for toggles
1 Cocoon, loh, rise, remove curse pot, remove disease, lesser restore, death ward, CE, meditation of war, slow fall
2 Ascendant, fire stance, earth, air, water, protector, skill mastery, colors, doublestrike, brace

Notes
Secrets of the build and testimony
I was messing around in r1 today, saw 3000 hp
I get a tickle out of that
Ya it was like 1000 temp, but still
I've seen a few monks go over 3000. And I'm not even running us.
I was testing the empowered dragonshard. I had 1985. Ha good year as I recall, my step into the world. But I was running 39 doublestrike. So from 160 to 140. Easy enough in a team.
But see this has just been my experiment on this toon. To make the deadliest fighter possible. I was hoping that would be the henshin, but what with Shintao and wraps, the w is just too much. I mean the henshin was an auto attack beast, but this thing even moreso. I mean u can auto attack most monsters in 2 secs. That's not even enough time to throw in a stunning fist, since I use mouse to click my special attacks, and the time I use to fist is time I just can auto and kill it. Yes, simple overwhelming.
But I guess the biggest trade off is melee distance. You have to get up close and personal with Shintao. With henshin the staff kept everything at range, easy to hit 3 tgts, but wraps is all single tgt beat down. Super fast tho. Not as fast as wolf, but 3 attacks per animation. That's 12 x600 or 7500 not counting sneak. So 1 sec is like 10k dps. That's assuming hit. I do lots grazing, I see it now, so mostly run attack boost when front fighting. Always loose the sneak, which is avg 300, but I can tank most everything. Except greater hates and Strahd. Those guys chew me up.
So ya, close fighting. I don't really like it. In mobs you lose single tgts, mostly I still use henshin tactics, stand and sweep. Just now I take down mobs as I circle. With the henshin, it was more glancing blows and multi damage with cleaves. I've got whirlwind, and it's pretty killer combo to boost attack then ww. I can take down mobs to half that way, and then just single tgt clean up.
This thing really is a racecar. Like has 3 different gears. Fast, turbo and supercharge. So normal idle is like 600 damage with 300 sneak. Then boosts take it to like 750-800. And finally, for longer boss battles, there is blitz, which brings damage up to 1000. Yes this monster is a flasher for big numbers. I see crits up to 8k.
Then there is helpless damage which is the hot butter I talk of.
This is not a special attacks monk. At least I don't play it that way. No need. It is a auto attack dps monster. Twice that of the next melee, I've stood at watched others. It's no match. And it comes from being a monk. 6.5w just from monk. Then 7 for wraps. That 13.5 without adds. And the 3 more for 16.5. I've linked my wraps and ppl just freak out. The melees I mean. And I'm sporting 145mp up to 350. So it's even further unreal.
But the trick of this build is the fighting style. Because the loh is good for 1k in reaper. So if you got 2k hp then half is a full heal. So fight to about 600hp and cast loh. Or sooner if you're getting mobbed. But I like to fight in doors, or be mobile in combat. Because one of the secrets of this build is no threat. I never draw aggro, unless I'm soloing. Otherwise mobs just run by me most always. Make great for the sneak attacks. It's something I count on, but still marvel. I mean, I open doors or are first into room, and monsters just rush past me. Like they see me and say oh ****, and avoid me. It allows a lot of cherry picking.
The only weaknesses of this build are true seeing and death ward. Made up by the scroll or pot, but still, 10 min. Always nice to have a cleric in the group for death ward, because that's the only thing I fear. But I've found all the neg levelers in ravenloft, and know when to drink up. Still, better to have a 25 min spell on ya.
I use rise of the Phoenix regularly. Usually I save it for wipes, but it's useful soloing, for those lag moments. But it is super cool having a self Rez ability. The trademark of the Shintao. Because something in their training allows them to rise from the ashes. That's better than duality. But the wraps are just one aspect.
But everything you get is in contrast to being a brawler. So like I've said it's not for everyone. Melee timing is a different art, and playing the mobs is artwork. Done right that is. I've seen range just **** up the battlefield. All they do is run all over the place, trailing mobs behind them. I mean it's a solo game at that point. I don't chase that ****. Sometimes I'm nice and ki shout, but sometimes it's just funny to watch.
So there are no secrets to this build. It's just dps monster trumps all. Of course it's on a monk build, so defenses. I mean 200 AC, 200 prr, and 40 dodge is pretty decent. I take damage, but at a moderate rate. So I can manage my hp. And I got veil and thick skinned, and blitz. And mostly I got mobility, because I was playing lag the earth, and am down to like 1 fps, and when I move it's like 30 feet. So my move is like stupid high, but at 1 fps you have to turn around and then try to tgt the mob and inch towards it. Mostly in that quest I just keep swinging and run around until everything's dead. It's so laggy final fight. But I never die, so it's not so bad. And it's relatively quick.
The last thing I was gonna touch on was style. Like how you play the build. You can see by my hotbars, I run minimized. 8 bars total. Because more would clutter up my screen. The only caveat I have is a GUI setup that favors healing.
I set up my vertical bars to the right. Then I place the party bar right next to that. It's the shortest distance between clicks. So I have party member health bars right next to my healing spells. I've found it the best configuration. Kinda right center, with bars being right center and lower.
Other than that, always be cycling boosts. Attack is for front fighting, haste is for fast finish on a boss type hp mob, and mp is for when you have blitz up and you're going for sustained high dps. Mostly I use attack and haste for mobs and mp for boss.
So, my testimony is that I love the dps but don't like the fighting style. I'd rather be a henshin. So they've set the standard pretty high. Because this thing is twice the next melee.

[Vish]

Wisdom conversion
Kilgore, the supreme monastic
Ln aasimar
20 monk
Shintao

Str 8 0
Dex 15 8
Con 15 8
Int 12 4
Wis 20 +7 16
Cha 8 0
+6 tomes
+2 complete

Umd, hide, conc, balance, jump, heal

1 monk dodge
Feat twf
2 monk stunning fist
3 monk mobility fist of light
4-6 monk spring attack
Feat CE
7-9 monk whirlwind
10-12 monk itwf
13-15 monk gtwf
16-18 monk ic blunt
19-20 monk

21 imp martial arts
24 oc
26 PTWF
27 completionist
28 mass frog
29 dire charge
30 astral
Past life monk

Ap
41 Shintao core6
23 falconry wis to hit damage wisdom kta
14 henshin core3 +1 wis
2 (+5) aasimar +2 wis regen loh


Notes
Last I built a wisdom monk, it was on a henshin
Not really needed, but I learned that
However, Shintao is dc based off wis
And highest I had wis was 94
From a 77 dex nets +17, or +8 to hit damage and dc
I'm gonna have to build this and test the ap layout
Because when I was running the dex version of this build, I went 17ap into aasimar for the +10% hp. But all you really need is 7 for the regen hands. So if you go 7, 5 racial and 4 open, that gets you wisdom kta. So will have to look at that.
Maybe I call this the Kookoo build. Or the dodo.
No ninja!
Mass frog ftw!

[Vish]

Notes
Got this build up and running
Retired the necro hurler. It was an awesome build, but I'm a monk, and now with wisdom conversion
Just rerolled. Made it to level3 doing waterworks. And some gems of course.
I will do the harbors tomorrow get 4 and start reaping.
Got vish up to 30 as the bird man. He will do my raiding honors.
Mostly I just want to see a Shintao with wisdom to hit and damage.
I'm excited for leveling this build. 5 racial, 47 reaper. And I already got the gear for 30.
This will be a repeat run, like I did with philanthro, and I've got a monk life to give. Since I've done my aasimar. May stay epics a bit and roll some epic lives. I've not got too many left to do.
But it's nice having a 45 AC at level2.

[DrawingGuy]

Mass Frog has been half-fixed. It now benefits from Transmutation DCs like it always should have, but it is still erronously giving +30 instead of +20 to the DC and still has borked Spell Pen checks. Also snagging WIS + DC + Spell Pen from the Reaper tree becomes quite useful. Ultimately this means that you can run up to +6 to Mass Frog DCs in standard gear, and can flip on a Twisthallow Cloak or some Transmute goggles when you need to go Mass Frog mode (such as busting Totems/Scarecrows in Baba). You certainly won't be as effective as a divine caster in EA, but should be able to push Mass Frog into the 80s or even 90s.

Burst of Glacial Wrath is a bit of a tougher cookie to chew. First is you have a lot more competition for feats (unlike Destiny feats where there are only a handful, most of which are unneeded), which I discuss in various threads on these forums. You will be costing yourself other sources of damage/utility to take this feat. Second is SP pool. As a non-caster, especially one that can't really fit any SP gear other than an augment without serious sacrifice, your pool is small. Mass Frog alone can chew through it, Aasimar stances use it, Cocoon uses it... so unless you have a well stocked library of clickies and pile of SP pots, you won't get too many uses of BOGW. It also doesn't have the +10 DC advantage that Mass Frog has. So while you can get +3 from past lives, it will be sitting a fair bit behind. And unlike Mass Frog where gear swapping for a situational use/once a minute is not a big deal, BOGW is something that you'll be wanting to always be effective so you're not just blowing your time and SP on nothing. Where would you fit Evocation gear?

[Vish]

Level 6
Just rolled 6.
Most points into bird man first for wisdom conversion. That's most of 4. Then into Shintao
Get geared by 6. To 8 for slavers.
Of note ran some high reaper with some pros. It's not really easy at low level. Especially if you're not geared for it. Having 350+ hp helps, but you still gotta kill stuff. I dont really care for it. I'd rather not go over r3 on a melee in heroics. Lose too much. And it's slow so I don't find my fun that way. I'll get my reaper at cap thank you.
So I bailed and just ran the 3s in a bigger group. It's buddy weekend after all. Much faster, no dying, and get good xp. And you make time and favor. Free ddo points.
Next will be 3bc and necro. Then to 7s.

Drawing,
Ya I'll play with mass frog. I know I can do LH scarecrows just off wisdom. Since when I ran vish in a LH baba he was not geared and he had lower wisdom like a 84. I should see 94 on this build. I could make some swap gear. I'll look at that at 30.
And I put bogw in there just for fun. Kinda thinking outside my spell pool. Thinking like a cleric with 3000 mana. I think I'll just use frog for scarecrows, since I can prob dps the totem about as fast as a spell and the burst will likely be replaced. Not sure what. I'm not taking sneak of shadow again. Just like I don't use core3 ninja. Another clickie I don't bother with. This is meat grinder build. Dodge and AC will cover you enough. And besides, monks Shintao have enough cc. And besides there's dire charge, and then you normally run with a ccer. So it's totally unnecessary. Just dreaming. It cause helplessness. So it's like supreme cc for melee. Icy monsters.
So instead of henshin mp, this build gets wisdom conversion at the beginning. Maybe 9 mp isn't that big a deal in heroics anyway. Trees are always weak for mp. I'm still really sad they nerfed henshin. Should have made it mp usable with staff. Or like 3mp otherwise.
Anyways thanks for your thoughts. But I'll prob keep frog. That's just too funny on a monk.

[DrawingGuy]

While Tactics is an important feat for QP, the ability to insta-kill constructs and undead is extremely strong. Though outside of LH, you do need to go all-out WIS and likely use swaps to get it useful. Also if you are not really running heavy undead/construct quests, such as RL, Mass Frog loses a little more importance. But Mass Frog really does shine in Baba and Strahd, and as that is where you grind +8 tomes, likely most people will benefit from taking the feat over Tactics. I certainly do. Though Mass Frog is definitely faster than hitting the totem, as it is really tough to beat instantaneous. Though the totems do have SR, so unless you have the past lives to load you up with spell pen, it probably isn't worth the bother. I do, though.

I do agree with you that Reaper 3 is the sweet spot of speed and RXP, especially when you don't have a caster. Even though I can easily handle higher, I tend to also only run R3s.

Back to feats. Sneak of Shadows is a pretty solid feat for those that run Scion of Ethereal -- it would take about 20 minutes (variable crit math makes calculating this very complex, so this is an approximation) between shrines for Disciple of the Fist to beat it (though against SA immune targets like undead, Disciple wins). But it is indeed a clicky - you forget to use it, it is wasted. If the timer is caught between mob groups, it is wasted. It can certainly be nice to not have to worry about that.

Here is a quick list of feats I would suggest outside of the core "must have" for unarmed monks. I personally consider defensive feats bottom priority unless they are the difference of survival for you.

DPS Feats:
- Precision: Note that this will come at the cost of Combat Expertise's survival boost, but gives a large accuracy boost and fort bypass. Fort bypass is not really needed if you run with Expose Weakness from Falconry, but the accuracy bonus still goes a long way to avoiding grazing hits.
- Improved Martial Arts: Passive DPS boost by giving +1[W] if unarmed
- Overwhelming Critical: Passive DPS boost by boosting 19-20 crits
- Disciple of the Fist: Passive DPS boost by giving +0.5[W] if unarmed
- Sneak of Shadows: Clicky that boosts SA damage, though only worth it if you run Scion of Ethereal

Utility Feats:
- Completionist: +2 to all abilities and skills means a small boost to everything, and if you are building for QP, this becomes especially useful.
- Vorpal Strikes: Only way to get Slashing Bypass while unarmed as they nerfed Morninglord wraps.
- Blinding Speed: This is a "convenience" feat. I personally never take it, preferring to fit speed/alacrity on my gear or using haste pots/clickies if a caster isn't available.

Defensive Feats:
- Epic Damage Reduction: 10 PRR is 10 PRR
- Epic Reflexes: Not failing Reflex saves on a 1 makes a difference, though there is always GMoF when the need is critical (such as fighting Moiir)
- Toughness/Epic Toughness: Every little bit of HP helps
- Deflect Arrows: I do feel that this feat gets underestimated, but this is also available as a 6 AP spend in Vistani.


Still hope they fix Vorpal Strikes some day to provide the Vorpal procs on handwraps. ~+5 non-scaling damage per hit may not be amazing, but it is still something. And killing even a 1k HP monster can actually mean something on R10s.

[Vish]

Level 9
9 holding 10. Was 8 then I double ran shadow crypt. That was like 100k. Then I did von1-4 and wpm. Making great time and xp with buddy weekend. Too bad this wasn't permanent. Would shave a lot time off tr.
At 8 equipped 5 pc slavers might. That'll hold me til 13. Got disciple armor at 10 and spectral gloves at 11.
Points into bird man, and rest into Shintao. Don't have jade yet. That will be 10 most likely. Got 4 healing hands. And still have maxxed reaper trees. Over 500 hp in reaper now.
Build is strong and can solo easy. Great damage, and fast. I love monks. Not having any problems at all. Using vorpal wraps, and the lvl2 stk wraps for ghostly.
Smooth sailing. Will maybe do ravenloft. Oh ya got barovian wraps at 10 too. Having a hoot with xp weekend.
Oh ya, got ww at 9. So now I got my aoe. Stunning fist and wwa ftw!

[Vish]

Level 13
Made it to 13. Started running some gh
At 12 took itwf, based on recommendations. I got scraps of enlightenment. Equipped those and saw 4.5w and 18-20. So that means gtwf at 15 and ic blunt at 18. Juking it a little harder this time.
At 13 put on some cc gear. Neck for con, belt for dodge and shackles for defense. Also took out my gs goggles and put them on. They're the hp version. So hp at 13 is like 450, over 700 in reaper. Boo ya.
Other than that just leveling. Missed out on spies and elite run of von3. Did 2/3 of ravenloft. Juked a little bit of sands. Ran diplo chain duo in record time. Basically had a good group running 10-12 and made some reaper progress.
Put ap into fists, meditation of war and Phoenix. So I got my tier5s. Next points into bird man for killer instinct. Then some into aasimar to flesh it out.
Serious high speed killing machine. Good cc with stunning fist and tomb of jade. Keep looking for dire charge, guess I'll have to wait. Yep, it's an owner.
Regular restart this morning, so that means no patch this week? Gives me another week to make it to 20. Just in time for 25% hp boost.
Other than that just on cruise control. I may post some stats, but this is second time thru and I was jut going to make brief notes on way to 30.
I think this is my fastest time to 13. Think I rerolled on thurs or fri. Still got couple days of buddy bonus. Yes they should make it permanent. I think I see more lfms. But I'm also going thru sweet spots leveling. It would really cut down on the grind factor. Oh well, can wish anyway.
May post some stats after the restart.

[Vish]

Level 13 stat
Ocean stance
Str 22
Dex 28
Con 33
Int 21
Wis 48
Cha 18
Hp 457
Hamp 60
Ki 52/265
AC 92
Dodge 29/36
Fort 35
Reflex 30
Will 48
Bab 9/13
Doublestrike 9
Melee speed 4
Melee power 6
Sr 23
Fort 110
Prr 64
Mrr 35

Ap
36 Shintao
15 bird man
6 aasimar

Gear
Helm executioners
Neck cc 7con3
Eyes gs concord opp hp
Trinket Vom
Body disciple
Cloak of night
Bracers cc str7 sheltering17 heavy fort
Belt cc dodge7 natarmor7
Ring1 slavers wis
Ring2 insightful commands
Boots rng speed4 ff
Gloves spectral
Scraps of enlightenment 4.5w 18-20 x3

Notes
on gear, don't know if I have a wisdom ring, didn't see it in the bank. Maybe vish has it? I know he has my dex gloves. Will look again.
Sporting Vom, until 15 get planar and swap to dex gloves. I got some seeker goggles, so that could free up helm. Maybe the 14 wis helm with hamp? I'll check. And need my lvl10 boots, haven't pulled them yet either. Another new pair at 16.
Also, sporting insightful commands. Got passed it on a run of black and blue. I didn't have one, wanted the profane, even tho that's covered by disciple. But it's useful on a melee. Insightful deadly and accuracy. Don't have a accuracy item. I hit just fine tho. It's heroics.
On stats 48 wisdom at 13 is pretty good. Got decent dodge, and it's maxxed in reaper. AC at 92 is as good as my lvl30 cleric. That's kinda sad, for my cleric.
Really build is rocking. Almost 800hp reaper. Loh gets regen at 16. That will be a sustainer. Still doing good with 4 ATM.
Only other gear is prowess at 17.
Still got today and tomorrow for buddy bonus. Milking it.

[Vish]

Level 16
Just turned 16
Did a couple gh saga and took the xp. That was about 100k
Did a bunch of quests with vlov, and he helped flag me for the abbot
I haven't run litany in like forever, but now they changed the turn in, so you can do it over in tr. we did r/e/h/n all 4 times to flag for this raid. It's like doing new content when you haven't done it in years. I was saving those sigils for opportunity, but rules change, so I'll likely do this more often. And now I can do abbot nights with the high lords. Vlov was hlm. Those guys are always super nice, and op.
Stats I was seeing 550 hp, wis 52, AC 100 26dodge, and the wraps are tearing it up. Switched in chieftain, planar trinket, and dex gloves. Hamp is like 110?
Just got quivering palm. So sweet wisdom kta adds to qp. So I was seeing 51qp with boost. And it was working. I was taking out targets. But I was running in fire to generate ki. Because I was stunning fist and qp everything. But every once in a while you got to melee.
I was thinking my ap. because I was thinking meditation for the ki regen, so I can stay in water. It makes a little more in reaper where the dodge add fills up the missing dodge. But at cap it will be maxxed. Ya ap, so that's 8 into henshin? 41 Shintao. 23 bird man. 2 aasimar. Leaves 14. Off 8 is 6. Not enough for 10%hp form aas. Need 8? More. So maybe just 1 into henshin. 3 more into bird for helpless, since that is a lot of damage, and 10 into asimar for the hp. Plus I'll get good use of the new 25%hp from melee survivability. Last build I had 1800. So 21-2200? Boo ya. I'll also get the hamp in there, so great for reaper build. Still no ninja. I'm pretty sure I'll be in ld, so I'll get the mp boost there.
So think this is fastest to 16. Any ways it seemed it took less time overall. Still got tomorrow morning, so I may get vin vale or LOD or wheloon. Still haven't done 15s. So it's usually a level a day after this. Tho we got this weekend.
On another note. I think I'm gonna put that +8 con tome on the ah. I think 1500 min? For three days over the weekend. I haven't been selling much on the ah, and been spending some shards. I'm down about 300 so I'm looking for an infusion. I think I'm gonna buy 30 bucks of double points and then save up for the +8s when they go on sale again. But I could also go over 2000 as and finally have enough to buy an upgraded boat. Not much gain, and I don't really need it, but it be a nice upgrade. I don't spend them on any else much. But I just barely made 2000, so maybe if I get that much for the tome. Bam, it's already spent!
Took gtwf at 15. Will take ic blunt at 18, and pick up a die from core5. Then 2 more at 20. So that's 7w at 20, or more with last monk levels. Ya maybe 8. Good dps. I got grave wrappings at 20 to prowess.
Ok so brief notes until 20. When I'll do a stat post.
Oh ya. 7 aasimar for 7 use regen loh. Winning!

[Vish]

Level 20
Made it to 20. Ran vale twice and soloed lod1 on elite. Just for a dps test. Because in reaper all I do is kill reapers. Everything gets evaporated. And bosses. This is a boss beater. But super fast dps. Faster than needing stunning fist. I mean, the auto attack is all that's left of monk. What they turned them into. I mean I have nothing other than fists of light on my hotbar. I don't even consider the other attacks. I've got enough specials as it is. But it's super dps. And a monster in reaper. Ya stunning fist for champs. Tomb for reapers. That's gonna be about it.
But anyway. Ap slit is 41 Shintao. Took kukan do, but haven't hotbar red it yet. Another cc? I've never used it since it was a cha modifier. Now I'll test it out. 25 bird man. Got 2 wis out of it anyway. No bird attacks. I use killer instinct for runs of mobs I know I'll get use out of. And for bosses. 2 min is a boss fight. So no need to renew them, just be wise. And 18 into aasimar. Got 5 racial, so 13. Got like 172 hamp. And wings. And 10% hp. Brings me up to 726 at 20 in gmof. That's right grandmaster. I decided I'm gonna test it. I'll twist from ld. But I took all the flowers and 6 wisdom. So that makes 66 wisdom so far. And I saw 10w on the wraps. Still had on scraps. Will prowess grave wrappings. Unless there is better at 20? Idk. Need to buy some more sentient tools. Have to unplug from the scepter. It's got 73k on it. So a while to 8. No worries gives me something to do.
And put the con tome up for sale. I thought it was a pure 8, buts it's a 7 upgrade. Sight, not worth it. I put it up for 1500. Let it ride this weekend. It may not sell.
And I was thinking reaper points. Made it to 48. And I need 21 in con for 100hp. And so rest in spell tree for wis and DCs. After all I have frog on this build. But mostly for wisdom. So far I reconfigured at 15 and put max into con, and was sporting almost 1000 in reaper. Monsters in heroics. And super high AC and dodge. When I ran that elite LOD, I was being mobbed and testing my whirlwind dps, and I was hardly taking no damage. Never was in a tight spot on elite. So that's gravy solo. Ya used hands a few times to top off, but never was in danger. And all the bosses can be tombed. So fire off killer instinct and just beat down. But who runs elite in heroics except as second run for xp? R1 is the new.
Ya this monk builds well. I think the trick was the earlier itwf and gtwf. Kept my dps up in later heroics. Because even tho it was mostly an all reaper life, it tears up reaper too. Elite is just for comparing base numbers. Because after a while when you're running different reaper difficulties, it becomes a wash. Buts it hella harder on a dps after 3. But I rarely did any over this life lotta 1 and 2. Because heroics just don't always have the resources. Like I was casting raise dead at 50%. I guess that's good for a monk tho. More an emergency measure tho. Some pugs I play don't have good cohesion, but you get a couple vets or more and it all goes smoothly. Because they're prepared, and capable. So this life has been a breeze, plus in record time. Normally takes me two weeks to 1-20. But this was a week. Fastest time evar. I never use xp pots either. But do have a greater tome of learning. Kil is my tr.
Now I become a flower tosser. Like a real monk. I figured a base 60 is better than a charging blitz, tho blitz may be fine for bosses. But I can twist in extra charges and haste and mp. So I'll have my prowess boost. Just I'll be casting ein, and frog. Haha this is gonna be weird. But it should be fun. I got until Wednesday when the patch drops. Because I've had Updater issues and I may be a week off. Idk well see, I've gathered new insight off that. Some settings I may be able to change. But it's all flowers till then.
I'll post 20 stats but it doesn't really matter. New cc at 21. I usually just juke 20-21. But I'd rather post 21.
Poems may ensue. I've been here before.

[DrawingGuy]

A few comments:

Kukan-Do: I've historically dismissed this ability. While I know many love it because of its unlimited range, I have always found it too clunky due to the cast time... it would slow me down rather than help me, so it would only be used on run up, and I simply did not consider the 2AP worth a once-per-combat ability. However I made a mistake in never trying it again after the updates: Kukan-Do works on reapers. This alone makes the move worth actively using. Tomb of Jade is still the superior CC and should be your first CC for Reapers (unless you have undead/construct crowns to worry about) as it casts ten times faster and lasts much longer, but the ability to reliably CC two reapers at once is very strong, and the ability to stun it no matter where it teleports is also strong. So while I still sigh at the delay caused by the casting, it is now a "must have" for unarmed builds in my book.

LD vs GMoF: The DPS of Legendary Dreadnought goes well beyond the 28 MP advantage of a full Blitz. You also gain the following:
+ Perma Action Boost: By putting boosts on a 20s CD, it allows you to have one up for every second of a fight, adding the speed/melee power to your DPS.
+ More Action Boosts: The tree gives more boost usages (though that aspect can be twisted) along with actual action boosts to use.
+ More Prowess uptime: This 100MP (or did they fix it to 75? haven't paid attention to that) can be triggered every 20s rather than every 30s, giving you 50% uptime over 33%.
+ Gives +1[W] (GMoF can provide this too assuming you spend 3AP and run in Fire. Not worth the cost imo)
+ Gives 50% helpless damage
+ Gives +1 crit multiplier on 19-20
+ Gives +1 crit range
+ Gives up to +11 crit damage

The DPS of LD and GMoF are not even in the same ballpark. Petal moves are DPS losses compared to even unboosted DPS, and don't cause helplessness. The 1.5[W] is good, but is a twist, as is the 3% doublestrike.

And, of course, the disadvantages don't stop there. LD is also superior survival. LD provides:
+ 60 HP
+ 50 PRR (20 from CE and 30 from Blitz which requires no buildup)
+ a stun break (which I consider to be a powerful survival tool)
+ 25% damage reduction boost
+ 20 fort save boost (more situational admittedly)

GMoF on the other hand, provides:
+ A heal on a 5 minute cooldown making it useless for any kind of active use. More of a neg level/stat fixer (which pots/scrolls can do) or a kitten button that you better hope you won't need again for a while.
+ Dodge through enemies, which is available as a Tier ONE twist (which also gives +3 dodge and +6 Reflexes)
+ Stance boosts which are too weak to spend the AP on giving only 15HP and 15 AP (only in earth) at the cost of 3AP, or 6 AC for 3 AP
+ Save boosts are inferior to Tier One versions contained in other trees. If built right, your saves should already be sitting pretty making the save boosts really only a 5% save boost. Only Reflex Save is special as it is not available anywhere else outside of a feat, but is again only that small boost for 3 AP. Great for fighting Moiir or bosses with savable guards, but not really worth it for anything else.


So TL;DR - LD is better DPS and survival. While you can argue that Drifting Lotus (AOE knockdown) and EIN (AOE instakill) can do a lot for survival, they face the issue of single-stat scaling, which means that even rolling triple digit WIS values will still only put them in the 80s for DCs. The ability to kill things more than twice as quickly will go much farther than a 5 min CD kill move or a knockdown that will fail half the time and only last a few seconds. Unless content is being run that goes really slow (which would allow for EIN use on most mob groups), I'll pit myself against the kill/death count of a GMoF user any day. I really see only four reasons to go GMoF:
1) Because you want to. This is a game you play for fun, and that is all the reason you need to use GMoF
2) You're playing a quest/raid where you really only need to kill trash once every 5 mins or so. Fire on Thunder Peak is a pretty good example of this as you can just kite trash in a circle and EIN while people fight the dragon. Though even then I find it easier to just Blitz.
3) You're playing a quest that is really helped by no-fail Reflex, such as my earlier example of Moiir in Haunted Halls.
4) This really is just rewording reason one, but because you want to play an insta-kill build. GMoF can provide up to +6 more QP DCs over LD (assuming you twist Legendary Tactics) along with EIN. A caster could do this more often and from the safety of ranged along with powerful CCs, but not everyone needs to be a caster, right?

[Vish]

A few comments:

Kukan-Do: I've historically dismissed this ability. While I know many love it because of its unlimited range, I have always found it too clunky due to the cast time... it would slow me down rather than help me, so it would only be used on run up, and I simply did not consider the 2AP worth a once-per-combat ability. However I made a mistake in never trying it again after the updates: Kukan-Do works on reapers. This alone makes the move worth actively using. Tomb of Jade is still the superior CC and should be your first CC for Reapers (unless you have undead/construct crowns to worry about) as it casts ten times faster and lasts much longer, but the ability to reliably CC two reapers at once is very strong, and the ability to stun it no matter where it teleports is also strong. So while I still sigh at the delay caused by the casting, it is now a "must have" for unarmed builds in my book.

LD vs GMoF: The DPS of Legendary Dreadnought goes well beyond the 28 MP advantage of a full Blitz. You also gain the following:
+ Perma Action Boost: By putting boosts on a 20s CD, it allows you to have one up for every second of a fight, adding the speed/melee power to your DPS.
+ More Action Boosts: The tree gives more boost usages (though that aspect can be twisted) along with actual action boosts to use.
+ More Prowess uptime: This 100MP (or did they fix it to 75? haven't paid attention to that) can be triggered every 20s rather than every 30s, giving you 50% uptime over 33%.
+ Gives +1[W] (GMoF can provide this too assuming you spend 3AP and run in Fire. Not worth the cost imo)
+ Gives 50% helpless damage
+ Gives +1 crit multiplier on 19-20
+ Gives +1 crit range
+ Gives up to +11 crit damage

The DPS of LD and GMoF are not even in the same ballpark. Petal moves are DPS losses compared to even unboosted DPS, and don't cause helplessness. The 1.5[W] is good, but is a twist, as is the 3% doublestrike.

And, of course, the disadvantages don't stop there. LD is also superior survival. LD provides:
+ 60 HP
+ 50 PRR (20 from CE and 30 from Blitz which requires no buildup)
+ a stun break (which I consider to be a powerful survival tool)
+ 25% damage reduction boost
+ 20 fort save boost (more situational admittedly)

GMoF on the other hand, provides:
+ A heal on a 5 minute cooldown making it useless for any kind of active use. More of a neg level/stat fixer (which pots/scrolls can do) or a kitten button that you better hope you won't need again for a while.
+ Dodge through enemies, which is available as a Tier ONE twist (which also gives +3 dodge and +6 Reflexes)
+ Stance boosts which are too weak to spend the AP on giving only 15HP and 15 AP (only in earth) at the cost of 3AP, or 6 AC for 3 AP
+ Save boosts are inferior to Tier One versions contained in other trees. If built right, your saves should already be sitting pretty making the save boosts really only a 5% save boost. Only Reflex Save is special as it is not available anywhere else outside of a feat, but is again only that small boost for 3 AP. Great for fighting Moiir or bosses with savable guards, but not really worth it for anything else.


So TL;DR - LD is better DPS and survival. While you can argue that Drifting Lotus (AOE knockdown) and EIN (AOE instakill) can do a lot for survival, they face the issue of single-stat scaling, which means that even rolling triple digit WIS values will still only put them in the 80s for DCs. The ability to kill things more than twice as quickly will go much farther than a 5 min CD kill move or a knockdown that will fail half the time and only last a few seconds. Unless content is being run that goes really slow (which would allow for EIN use on most mob groups), I'll pit myself against the kill/death count of a GMoF user any day. I really see only four reasons to go GMoF:
1) Because you want to. This is a game you play for fun, and that is all the reason you need to use GMoF
2) You're playing a quest/raid where you really only need to kill trash once every 5 mins or so. Fire on Thunder Peak is a pretty good example of this as you can just kite trash in a circle and EIN while people fight the dragon. Though even then I find it easier to just Blitz.
3) You're playing a quest that is really helped by no-fail Reflex, such as my earlier example of Moiir in Haunted Halls.
4) This really is just rewording reason one, but because you want to play an insta-kill build. GMoF can provide up to +6 more QP DCs over LD (assuming you twist Legendary Tactics) along with EIN. A caster could do this more often and from the safety of ranged along with powerful CCs, but not everyone needs to be a caster, right?

You sound like unbongwah
Just because it looks better on paper,
Doesn't mean it plays that way
I'll be looking at ld maybe
But I can twist what I need
What you're missing is +6 wis from gmof
And of course that I'm a role player
And for gods sake play in a monk Ed
But really it's a playstyle
Like most of the time I'm in ld I'm not blitzing
Just because that promotes a Zerg style
Gotta keep meleeing
I'm a little more flower sniffer
I stand around a lot
I see what others do
I run to the backs of mobs,
To take out the casters
I'm superman on the reapers
So I play more sniper as a monk
Not just dire charging forward and attacking everything to keep up blitz
So I'll take the static 60
I saw 90 resting at 20
That's 30+30+75+20, so 240 tops
Should be good enough
That and 17w
I've got lotta things to look at building this back up
For for the most I'm going for a max wisdom build
You get that in gmof, not ld
And besides you get cool attacks in gmof
I rember it has a cool aoe attack with knock down
That goes good with whirlwind
And you get ein
So 2 instakillers
Kinda henshin, kinda mystic
But I always considers the Shintao monastics
So they might draw from more priestly energies
Ya the builds down 30-40? Mp from what it was
More if you count 25 from prowess
What I have previous? Like 365?
But I'll bbe happy with ein, and frog
But biggest change was going to wisdom using bird man
Haven't seen how that will ultimately pay off.
It was +8 over dex
And this'll get +20 from killer instinct
So a +30 gain overall
That's pretty significant
Ya it's my playstyle to pause and pounce
Not Zerg fest
May be better Ed for raids
But for normal adventuring gmof is better suited
Idk I'm gonna test it out
Just going with my gut

[DrawingGuy]

Despite having done hundreds of lives and characters, I'm not a zerger. I don't mob skip, do the optionals, read the NPC bubbles if I haven't already, and go for breakables/traps/etc. As long as you're not just standing there doing nothing, keeping Blitz up isn't really a problem. And even without Blitz, LD is STILL better DPS and survival. This isn't paper crafting -- I've done dozens of Monk lives, and many used GMoF. I do enjoy the flavor of the Petal line, and EIN is fun... but as the DCs haven't been able to keep up, even that falls on the wayside. GMoF needs desperate help, but not to be made like LD. The moves need properly scaling DCs and damage, and a million other little changes. I won't digress into how I think GMoF should be as it is off topic and won't change anything. And you fit one of the main reasons to go GMoF: Because you want to. Not everything needs to be about min-maxing.

Hope you enjoy your epic levels!

[Vish]

Level 20 notes
Ok got this up and running. ?*5 slot prowess into grave wrappings. Set up my twists. 3 2 2 1 haste improved CE mp and extra action boosts. No cocoon. Going with survivability changes means I won't be able to use it anyway, but the loh will be my self heal. Saw mp standing at 101. Prr was like 114 with a 130 AC.
So I set up my hotbars and ran a en da. That's always my testing ground. I have like 120/440 ki, because I'm going for a ki intense build. Lot of flower casting and drifting lotus attacks. Even tested kukan do. So I have 2 ranged flowers and lotus. Didn't take petals. Didnt take enlightenment. Would have to lose a point of wisdom. Also reconfigure reaper ap. put 12 pt into spell tree for +4 wis. so that means 70 wis at 20 in reaper. Don't have my DCs of fist and palm yet. I was using those too. And taking out soft tgts. Of course everything works in normal, but it's a good measure of how you set up your routines. Also dismissing strike for the eles. That's what I love about this build. Good cc and incredible dps. So I was seeing like 160-180 base damage. That's with 9w from wrappings. Lost reinforced fists. Won't be able to make that back up til 29. Oh well half a die. But I was seeing crits to 800. And I was able to charge ein most off lotus and single tgt flower. It works great too. I like the flashy graphics, let's you know there's a monk around.
Then I went and ran a bb EE von1-4 and spies. That almost got me to 21. But I was rocking it. Had good ki increase, and was lotus and ww, and had dragon buff and killer instinct. And prowess boosts. I have 10 each of haste, mp, and sprint. Oh ya sprint. This is incredible on a monk. Super fast speed. You can make time catching up or running to a site. It's the best thing ever. And it procs prowess. So 30 boosts will keep me going. Ya saw 175 and 200 mp. Dps went up to about 250 a hit. Serious boss killer for low epics. And I'll be even more monster in reaper. Will test that out today. Ya mobs got 10k hp now, so stunning fist is more important for beat down, as is qp. Haven't fully tested qp with killer instinct yet. In EE even. But I'll be getting more time in. Overall it's just super build. When I ran the henshin I was using stout oak prowess but it only had like 4.5w. This is double that so far. Super performer.
Ya I loved this build before and I'm loving it even better now. DCs are through the roof and everything lands. With stunning fist it's double damage. And don't forget abundant step. Super defense super offense cc and movement. What's not to love about monks. Now just to test some reaper.
And drawing, I think gmof is just fine. The 60 static mp is great change, and it's got lots of options in it. I will use it for most of epic leveling. It just got too many cool bells and whistles and fits my playstyle. I've got lots of ways to boost damage for tough mobs. I just can't believe how it's overperforming. But this is Kil, with all my time I spent on him. Just ran into a buddy who said he just finished his racials. Ya 11 ap would be nice, I have another year to knock that stuff out. But I enjoy running builds to 30. I'll probably stay there and roll reaper points. And get my gem up to 8 slots. And now I've got vish in the raiding scene too. That's a fun cleric build. Both melee, but I love the challenge.
Will get cc gear at 21 and post stats.

[Vish]

Level 21
Water, CE, meditation of war
Str 26
Dex 39
Con 39
Int 22
Wis 73
Cha 20
Hp 886
Hamp 185
Sp 90
Pos 226
Ki 115/455
AC 141
Dodge 30/38
Fort 54
Reflex 53
Will 72
Bab 16/21
Doublestrike 23
Melee speed 9
Melee power 104
Sr 42
Fort 170
Prr 122
Mrr 50

Gear
Helm rng insfort44 stunning8 insprr7
Neck cc 10con4 devotion115 falselife30
Eyes cc 10wis4
Trinket planar compass or Vom
Body disciple
Cloak of night
Bracers cc str10 sheltering25 fort115 prot6
Belt cc natarmor10 doublestrike11 insdodge4 good luck2
Ring1 chieftain
Ring2 prowess resist5
Boots rng ff speed9
Gloves cc 10dex4 hamp40
Grave wrappings with 5pc prowess
18-20 x3 10w1d6 +81 to hit +66 damage

DCs w killer instinct
Kukan do 91 will
Drifting lotus 62 reflex
Stunning fist 81 fort
Tomb of jade 91 will
Quivering palm 70 fort
Dismissing strike 91 will

Reaper
12 dire +4 wis +2dc
36 grim core4 +4con 8dodge 9prr 9reflex

Notes
Wa fu grasshoppers
The numbers are in on killer instinct
DCs are good for lvl21. Been running EE. With a group, at level, everything easy. Bad boss dps. Boost killer instinct, boost prowess, and beat down. Otherwise drifting lotus, because it's so cool, and whirlwind. Stunning fist if you're not mobbed and a quivering palm in there if you get a clear shot. Nothing like missing a special attack because mob moved. It's hard to hit them on the fly too, but you can do it. Involves a little spin move. But DCs are good considering this is the start of my journey. What gear I have will be it till 28 and 29.
Reset ap in grim. To take the core 4 and 100hp. So that puts me close to 900. Prob 1300 in reaper, haven't even tested yet. Ran a c1 EE bb, and wanted to do reaper, but it filled the group. So I'll always take numbers over duo or that. Got 8 points into dodge so it'll max dodge in reaper. Because I'm not running a dodge item. I could slot a dodge7 ml13 cloak. Just to juke it up. And likewise the trinket is worthless at this point. I get ghostly in gmof. And that stunning helm I'm wearing has insightful prr. But there are no low epic trinkets? So it's something crafted. I'll have to look the planner.
73 wis is pretty good. I figure another 20 or more by 30. AC is high at 141. Need some more dodge. Gravy train ride so far. I'll hafta reaper to get a real taste. Just you don't see much reaper in epics. It's usually EE or LH for raids. And dailys at eh. So just cruise mode to get through. Just like I do dailys and then other quests. To keep from dying of boredom. But most of epics is just a repeat of heroics. So still, very mundane. Speed is of the essence, and the essence is how fast you can auto attack. But the monk is a supreme fighter. All kinds of tricks up his sleeve. Figure I charge ein every 4 mob. So that's useful. I can't wait to 28 to test frog. I put ap into spell pool. May have to rearrange reaper again to get the 100sp add. That and a 250 gem. Oh well, it will be emergency cast. For things like in baba and scarecrows. But it'll be good flavor. Not much better to take at 28.
Also took improved martial arts at 21. For the die in wraps. Brings grave to 10w. I'm seeing 250 damage boosted. That's pretty good for 10k beat down. And 23 doublestrike. And like 70% off hand. So my multiple strike make for quick hard dps. 3000 or less I don't bother with a stunning fist. The take like couple secs. But champs or big numbers I fist. Save the qp for soft tgts.
And I been testing kukan do. It's kinda a pause attack. Usually get one, not many more. But it works. And I think helpless. Because I see double damage. Idk maybe...maybe it's useful.
Other than that it's gravy train. Powerful build, I'm loving it. Back in the saddle pretty fast. But epics will do me good. Just have to start reaping. I'll take em at two levels over. Really I'm looking the challenge. Maybe Gianthold at 24. So a 20-24 group. Ya if not vets they get there butts handed to them. If you're last man standing, it doesn't bode too well. Unless you can solo the dungeon. And I probably can.
Will get more hp and mp in epics. No real changes until 28-9, but I may make a few.

[Vish]

Reaper notes
Had to wait til midnight. Got in on a von3 r1. Full group, but not vets. I have 1330hp. And 38 dodge. And like 150 AC. So very defense. 120 prr. Good reflex and improved evasion. Basically tore it up. The dps on this build at 21 is equivalent to my khopesh cleric at 30. Tho vish doesn't have prowess slotted yet. Ya the dps on this monster at 21 let me run r1 ravenloft this morning. I could prob baba a r1. Simply outrageous.
So this has gotta be about power creep. The 48 reaper points does all the talking. That and epic lives. And gear. Because in that Von I saw 1330 and thought, this is way overboard. And we're getting more. This time next week should have a stacking 25%. Tho I don't know if it stacks with the 5 from bird man. I will test it out. Aasimar is supposed to be sacred. Maybe nice if bird man is primal?
Ya, I got a nice beat down on this toon. But I'm only about a third of what I will be at 30. So high reaper for me. That will ultimately be the test. I don't know, I'm just going with gut on this build. Just max wisdom Shintao. I'm running doublestrike, brace and colors of the queen. I took my 21 cha ring as swap for prowess, and now my scrolling is good. I had skill mastery for swaps too, but I'm over 100% with the ring, so that's all that's needed.
But gear is power creep too. Got bis cc21 stuff. But there ain't that much good loot around 20. They shoulda made ravenloft 16-18. Then we would have epic tr gear. Because there's nothing in the middle of epics that I will equip. This stuff is fine for the rise to 28. Then to 29. But it would be nice for tr loots. They are trying.
Ya so I'm running r1 ravenloft at 21. And keeping up in the kill count. Very much contributing. Ran a r1 pop in there too. And it was disorganized and I had to duo or solo rooms. But I was staying alive and basically soloing the bosses. Just run killer instinct and keep prowess boosted. That's about 250 avg. good enough for legendary. Tho I'll be unreal at 30. Ya I was soloing r2 back when we had all the melee power. So the trick is to see if going pure wisdom is enough to recover the loss. I said +30. Idk I'll have to see the numbers.
Anyways wanted to report that I'm basically running all content r1 at 21. I'm I'mpressed myself.
oh ya 76 wisdom. Wa fu

[Kodwraith]

Your experience jives alot with mine on Kodraith, the DPS "nerf" from Henshin is not noticeable. Running around at R1, the only real limit to what you can do is crowd control.

Interestingly I only have a couple past lives, so I don't have the AC/PRR boost, so I run in LD because I die a lot more with "only" 140 odd PRR in GMoF, vs 180ish in LD. I hadn't thought to try twisitng in Leg Combat Expertise twist. I'll have to give it a whirl. I find I generate way more ki at cap (with rloft hws) than I can possibly spend.

[Vish]

Your experience jives alot with mine on Kodraith, the DPS "nerf" from Henshin is not noticeable. Running around at R1, the only real limit to what you can do is crowd control.

Interestingly I only have a couple past lives, so I don't have the AC/PRR boost, so I run in LD because I die a lot more with "only" 140 odd PRR in GMoF, vs 180ish in LD. I hadn't thought to try twisitng in Leg Combat Expertise twist. I'll have to give it a whirl. I find I generate way more ki at cap (with rloft hws) than I can possibly spend.

Ya, last I recall I had 200prr on this build at cap. Considering Im now 24, this is easy good enough for EE legendary. But I ran some more reaper, and this build hangs in there pretty good. The drifting lotus doesn't knockdown as much, because I don't have dire charge yet, but it's usually my opening move. DCs are good enough with killer instinct that I land them pretty good. But most of my time has been EE or less. Like I said reaper don't get run as much in epics. You see teams at cap doing r8, but they wouldn't let me in. I'm not up to standard yet. Tho I did run an full EE slavers last nite, with a bunch of 30s and basically just picked along. Got me to 24.
Ya so cc dire charge, stunning fist, tomb, lotus, and even kukan do. Tho I find it usually only hits one tgt. So even tho it's like cone, I think it's like turning, and more mobs in the way, less your chances. But it's a pause, so they'll mob you by the time it's done. Whereas stunning fist doesn't interrupt your auto attack.
So I'm just playing what the lfm brings me. I check the who list to get idea if I can run a reaper group. Not always the most on. But you can 20-30 a EE and just get a group fast. But I run more for xp than for favor. And just run reaper at cap.
Got almost 1000hp. Everything is smooth. I been practicing da to get my routines down, so I feel pretty good about doing any content again. Back in the saddle again. Love monks.