Theory crafting the celestial monk

[Vish]

Baba yaga hut
Ok, ran this last nite, it bugged
So tried again this morn
Pretty easy? On eh
An open map fight, and a hut to explore
Ok I'm not gonna be too critical here,
But the hut is just repeat times two
So that speaks to unfinished raid, very uninspired
I mean makes it easy you do it once you do it again
Both times to beat down a crystal
And each time a fight with baba
Had 4.5 mil in EE, 3.5 mil in eh
So just a big boss beat down
Tho the last fight had some serious debuff,
Was losing hp
Not sure, first time thru
But easy raid, requires some cooperation
Will be gravy with time
This is the one I got to farm
More stuff in hut for me than Strahd
But I got them both down pretty easy

Ran toee before that
I never run toee
But I was with a group that knew it
We started r1, but realized that would be a time slog
So went back in on eh
Pretty easy, I was invincible and easy killing mobs
We cruised thru it
Went to each of the temples
Went to the end
Finished.
I pulled an epic elemental bloom. Mythic +2
Haha. I'm so lucky. Never run it and pull only item I'm looking for on first run.
I'll take that



Notes
Made 64 guild and 32 reaper
Ran 3 sagas
Santas bag is full

[Vish]

Kil gore, the supreme monastic
Ln aasimar
20 monk
Shintao

Str 8
Dex 17
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 18 +7
Cha 9
+6 tomes
+2 complete

Umd, hide, conc, balance, jump, heal

1 monk dodge
Feat twf
2 monk stunning fist
3 monk mobility fist of light
4-6 monk spring attack
Feat CE
7-9 monk whirlwind
10-12 monk ic blunt
13-15 monk itwf
16-18 monk completionist
19-20 monk

21 oc
24 imp martial arts
26 PTWF
27 gtwf
28 elusive tgt
29 dire charge
30 ethereal
Epic reflexes

Ap
41 Shintao
19 ninja
14 henshin
7 aasimar

Notes
Will have sames stats as henshin
Same gear load out
What will change is raid Handwraps
And maybe pinnacle for prowess
Only thing missing from build is gtwf. Could use fleet foot boots for blinding speed but would lose 25 prr and 40 life. And take gtwf at 27. But I think I'll just lose the off hand. Or I could take at 30 and lose the epic reflexes.

Gear set Shintao
Helm executioners insdeception7, seeker 17, qualtactics4, green
Neck dawn herald charm adherant wis19, yellow
Eyes cc34 conc22, acc23, inswis7, green
Trinket cc34 dstrike17, dodge15, insstunning8
Body disciple of dawn avenger fort202, parry9, prr 50, profane, green
Cloak shadowhail avenger hide22, deception16, ghostly, green
Bracers lore fueled packbanner, inscon9, prr 50, insdstrike 10, green
bracers of fallen hero, adherants, str19, inscon9, stunning22, qualprr12, green
Belt cutcord avenger blurry, dex19, qualdex4, qualdodge4, green
Ring1 pinnacle adherant greater reinforced, deadly16, stunning22, soul of element, yellow
Ring2 slavers con17, resist14, qualwis4, green
Boots fleet foot adherant FoM, speed30, natarmor19, yellow
Gloves crumbling adherant insdex9, shatter22, insprr24, blue
Duality

Power 250
False life40
Fear immunity
Blindness immunity
Ff
Good luck
Draconic soul
Festwis
True blood
Prot8
Devotion?

Notes
Went with hamagabis basic set up
Don't have the bracers, don't have the belt
Can craft anything, so cc is covered. Got slavers comps.
Will likely go fallen hero bracers for the str and prr over dstrike.
Got 3 raids in each. Will be months before duality, unless I get lucky. But raid loot is one place where my luck seems to run out. But that's because all those LN runs. I plan on doing LH or above for these. But still, months.
With this gear setup, don't know the real numbers. Will have to go all in when I get the last few pieces. Still won't tr until get duality. But just saying, as geared can take gtwf at 27, don't need speed. And this setup loses int, so maybe no kta. The stun on this gear is great at 34, but no qp boosts without kta. But your tomb would be good. I'd hate to hot swap for int that makes no sense. But the dps will be through the roof, so maybe who cares qp, just that it's a goto on my henshin. I'd have to see the numbers, maybe? Slot an int augment, lose 2 kta easy, no festint...small gains for 8 ap.
Where it would go? Into aasimar likely, maybe ninja max mdb, and another stat henshin.
Max dex, max wisdom, missing the qual con. Pure monk fighting stats. Missing the mrr. I may be short of 50 with this setup. But it picks up deception and hide, which go with ethereal. Stuns and sneak attacks more max damage. Prob a 88 wis, with 19 over 17 and profane. So DCs be maxxed. As damage. Really a sweet setup.
I considered the molten gauntlets, but is only 5 dstrike and ap, and you lose about 5 pts dex, so that's +3. I'd rather the dex and Prr. And fleet necklace gain a wis and reinforced fists. Another sweet add after I get this tr up and running. Will be in the second run of raids. But now to farm a few pieces...

In other notes
Added 5th filagree. Ls attack and damage, rare. That adds 14d6 acid to each attack. Tested it in DA.

Still haven't run vish. I think the meta has changed. He is paralyzer, works great for slavers and mines, but ravenloft is 50% undead. Also raid clerics need to be healers. So I'm thinking. I'd hate to tr he is set with max enchantment gear. I could tr into favored soul and pick up more damage, or I could rebuild him as a pure? I'm conflicted. I think a turning cleric may be of use. I don't know yet, I'm gonna watch the scene more.

[Vish]

Strahd killer
Kilgore, Neo Ninja
20 monk
Ln aasimar
sunsword runner

Str 8
Dex 18 +7
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 17
Cha 8
+6 tomes
+2 complete

1 monk dodge
Feat twf
2 monk mobility
3 monk CE fists of darkness
4-6 monk spring attack
Feat whirlwind
7-9 monk Pl SOS
10-12 monk ic pierce
13-15 monk itwf
16-18 monk gtwf
19-20 monk

21 oc
24 completionist
26 PTWF
27 blinding speed
28 elusive tgt
29 dire charge
30 ethereal
Epic reflexes

Ap
41 ninja
8 kta
7 aasimar
14 henshin
11 Shintao

Running in shadowdancer
4T1 +1 dex, acrobatic2
4T2 +1 dex, lithe2
7T3 +1 dex, shrouding strike3, cloak of shadows2
5T4 +1 dex, improved invisibility3
4t5 executioners strike2, sealed soul2

Notes
This went thru several incarnation
What I wanted was a trapper with displacement and ddoor, so it could be a great group assets and run the sunsord. It was gonna be 10/7/3 rogue lock monk. But can't get 2 level 3 spells, and didn't have a tier5. So it was my first thought but kinda gimp. The issue here is centered with shortsword. Easy enough ninja core1, but rogue didn't support shortswords, only daggers.
So I thought 11/6/3 rogue fighter monk. And get the adds from shadowdancer. But then I prob go tier5 Kensai, with one with blade for shortsword. But that was missing ftr8, and would have to be a Harper build anyways.
So then I though, what would be best with shortswords and dps Strahd. And I kept coming back to ninja shortswords. And nothing better than monk for that. And shadowdancer gives displacement and ddoor. And there are no ninja builds, none I ever seen.
So I drop the trapping, but go dex based and crank the dps. And go pure ninja. Neo ninja. Strahd killah.
This was also inspired by seeing a lfm advertising for a toee shortsword. Who was looking for it? A monk.

In other notes
Happy new year
Got the named items, less duality
So can look at the crafting. Not sure about trinket? Use a shard? Or buy one from store. They don't come with augments?
Pulled the light hammer. Oh yay.
Ya looked at crafting, everything viable.
Ran a couple more sagas, got amber temple down, still don't know all the cards in invitation, but know the castle pretty well. All the others are easy, and easy enough to solo on r1. So it's gravy to get adds. Trappers are probably the most needed in this saga, for all the secret doors.
Ran about 5 sagas now, and found about all the loot. Still need the Bracer I won't wear, but got most everything useful. Now it's just raid time, got about 5 each of those. I just hope these are as popular as regular shroud runs. But I'm seeing lotta population at 30, but I'm also seeing lotta ppl not playing ravenloft at cap, but still tring. So honeymoon is about over? Come the new year and a patch. Hopefully they fix the hut, that is so bugged.
Think I'm about to bring vish online. I can get him saga done and flagged for the raids. Thatll bring 2 into line for raids. I'm still not seeing them regular tho, only so many ppl at 30 and ppl on timers, so...

[Vish]

Gear set Shintao
Helm executioners insdeception7, seeker 17, qualtactics4, green
Neck dawn herald charm adherant wis19, yellow
Eyes cc34 conc22, acc23, inswis7, green?*
Trinket cc34 dstrike17, dodge15, insstunning8
Body disciple of dawn avenger fort202, parry9, prr 50, profane, green
Cloak shadowhail avenger hide22, deception16, ghostly, green
Bracers lore fueled packbanner, inscon9, prr 50, insdstrike 10, green
bracers of fallen hero, adherants, str19, inscon9, stunning22, qualprr12, green
Belt cutcord avenger blurry, dex19, qualdex4, qualdodge4, green
Ring1 pinnacle adherant greater reinforced, deadly16, stunning22, soul of element, yellow
Ring2 slavers con17, resist14, qualwis4, green
Boots fleet foot adherant FoM, speed30, natarmor19, yellow
Gloves crumbling adherant insdex9, shatter22, insprr24, blue

Raw Stats for gear set Shintao
Str 43
Dex 61
Con 53
Int 29
Wis 85
Cha 22
Hp 1235
Hamp 70
Sp 185
Pos 185
Ki /420
AC 184
Dodge 41/41
Fort 73
Reflex 87
Will 94
Bab 20/30
Doublestrike 49
Melee speed 15
Melee power 165
Sr 30
Fort 218
Prr 197
Mrr 17

Skills
Balance 66
Conc 101
Heal 63
Jump 59
Spot 77
Umd 35
Hide 67
Move silent 64

Stunning fist 109
dire charge 114
Qp 68
Kta adds 4

Notes
Immediate numbers that stick out are dstrike and prr. Old dstrike at 38, so 10 add. And old prr at 149, so almost 50 prr. At cost of 17 mrr, which this build has no measure for... But epic reflexes mean no damage anyway. Could slot a sheltering to bring it up some.
Wis at 85. Missing globe and fest wis bring it up to 88. So 2 higher DCs. And DCs are comparably better, dire charge at 114 is like 14 higher than mine, and fist at 109, 111 with 88 wis. and qp is still the same. No int on this gear so only 4 kta vs7.
AC is 184 with missing prot8 192 same as mine.
Saves are identical.
Missing sp with a 250 gem, easy enough.
And hp are a little lower, missing vitality40 gem.
Hamp is 40 lower, and pos is about 150 short. The hamp hurts but the pos won't likely be missed, just for cocoons and sacred grounds.
I have no ranks in hide and move silently, so on Shintao 23 higher.
And the melee power is 145, just +20mp with sentient. So same.
And I didn't get hit damage bonuses. I will add them in the difference.
So overall, it's more tanker on prr and higher dps with doublestrike. And it's got better DCs. But it's missing mrr. Achilles.
But it's essential mean build.
Now the only prob is I gotta transfer over all my gems, and I don't have that many jewelers kits. And I haven't Tetris their place.
But here's some numbers.

So I built it, and I'm not unhappy.

[Vish]

Addendum
Dex 62
Con 54
Int 30
Wis 88
Hp 1305
Sp 435
AC 202
Fort 77
Reflex 91
Will 99

Slotted prot8 in helm, power250 in neck, festive wis in goggles, globe of true in pinnacle, falselife40 in gloves, good luck in bracers, leaves 4 green and a yellow.
Qp 75
Stunning fist 116
Dire charge 121
With 5 kta

+107 +87
So almost identical numbers on dps front, this with staff, wraps should be 14.5?
Got a jump in AC, prr, and dstrike for loss of mrr

Ran it on baba hut, performed fine
Seems like I'm getting higher end crits tho?
But overall can't tell the changes,
But now I'm committed to them, I slotted stuff.
Will likely tr into Shintao soon

[Vish]

Reposted from monk gearset redo

Ok,
So I been running this setup for last couple days
With stunning mods kta isn't needed.
My dire charge and stunning fist are already better than old setup with int,
Just that qp is not buffed,
But what I did is switch over to Shintao ap
Dropped the 8 ap kta
Picked up 1 mdb ninja, 1 mdb focus henshin, 20 hamp aasimar, and +1 wis each in ninja and Shintao.
So dodge is now 43, hamp at 90, and wis at 90.
Picked up 1 more dc so qp at 71, sans kta

I could go int goggles and hot swap,
But I prefer not
I like the build to run without changes
That's what I'm looking at
Also, slotted a sheltering 16 gem into robes, brought mrr up to 33
Also added a cha 7 gem, cha to 30. Can still scroll fine with one death.

The only real difference I'm seeing is when I run ml sentient staff over LGS
LGS keeps me free from heals. I can last most battles just off temp
And I hate hot swapping, but I do sometimes
With sentient, dps, with LGS, tank

The only issue with this gear set so far is no true seeing
Guess I have to get some scrolls
Whever they hide
But running against hags they go displacement, so needed
I don't do displacement, he'll I forget to veil most of the time
But gear is good, and I'm breaking it in
Really I run r1 mostly, and can solo.
But running cauldron makes me kinda tankish,
So when I switch to Shintao I will likely change up tactics
Go to being a more strike from behind monk, to get sneak in

I'm seeing real drop off ppl running ravenloft,
So will prob tr next Monday. Into Shintao
Still halfway to duality

[Vish]

I, Kilgore

Into the mists
What wonders behold
Living steel in the fold
Gems and filagree
Sentient weapons for thee
What story here to be told?

Death house
The monster in the basement
Through many layers of cement
A small voice was heard
Seek deeper she demurred
A figure in excrement

Bonegrinder
The only thing missing, a cauldron
For four to gather, a sqaudron
Wolves all around
A ghost to ground
It all turned out rather maudlin

Invitation to dinner
The castle on the hill
Invitations to fill
Met face to face
The card known as the ace
Von Strahd opens the bill

Oath of vengeance
Revenants everywhere
Harpies in the air
Align the mirrors
To the towers
Treasure just up the stair

Mad tea party
The mad hatters missing
Just a lady and her friend kissing
Figure out their scheme
It's like a devils dream
Really just a big dissing

Raven at the door
A rescue mission
Inside the castle a prison
Fight the hags disappear
In the treasury reappear
Two golems stand risen

Amber temple
Another bride story
In a temple of former glory
It's a hate filled place
Benn lying in disgrace
Strahd steals the glory

Final vintage
A Druids curse
The wine reversed
Find the cure
Become the lure
Or you'll be hearsed

Yester hill
Omg the lag
Omg the lag
Fps down to one
This is no fun
Omg the lag

Ravens bane
To meet the old baba
About same as jabba
Wisps and scarecrows
Steal the shows
Disco balls like abba

Sunrise
A bride yet three
Monogamy not for thee
A living temple to explore
Mongrels behinds these doors
Another wedding to see

[Vish]

Reaper
Water, dc
Str 44
Dex 63
Con 57
Int 31
Wis 90
Cha 30
Hp 1579
Hamp 90
Sp 465
Pos 189
AC 197
Dodge 43/43
Fort 77
Reflex 100
Will 99
Bab 20/30
Doublestrike 49
Melee speed 15
Melee power 165
Sr 30
Fort 218
Prr 200
Mrr 33

Balance 69
Conc 106
Heal 68
Jump 62
Spot 82
Swim 39
Tumble 44
Umd 41
Hide 70
Move silent 67

Staff ml 116 86

Notes
This my best as a henshin.
I have loved playing this role.
I have maxxed it out the best I could.
It is a monster. Not the best dps, but pretty good. Excellent defense make it near tankable, with cauldron of flame. Boss dpser.
I don't have much to report.
Ran lshroud, crafted tier3 double pos for my triple pos wraps. Tested in da. Now I can tr to Shintao, with lvl26 wraps.
I'll ramble a bit,...
So I been running resolute. A female voice. Wondering if it's useful at all. So it tells me to stay out of traps, and when it's taking damage, that always makes me check my hp... And it says when someone dies, and it calls me soldier a lot...
So I'm more not fighter, but I like the gem. And I may be a soldier of rock n roll, but what I figured she was trying to say,
Souljah
So now I'm rocking a souljah gem, and she's singing to me reggae beats. Makes killing all the easier, that and I play reggae. Giving up all kind of love to the monsters.
So I'm going to stay henshin. I kinda loathe giving up this incarnation. Always wanted to play a henshin, and I've become known on Kil as a henshin, so may as well stay true. Besides, like I've said, I'm the only henshin on the server, and I like that. Makes me unique
I'll get the runes for duality. Maybe get the runes for necklace. But I'll do it as a henshin. I'll save the tr for when I can step into it. Then run a celestial Shintao.

[Vish]

Raids update
Been running raids using timers, trying to get some extra runs in.
Got about a dozen each.
Ran an LE Strahd, it went well, but we had a strong group. It definately pays off in runes, 125 vs 85 vs 65. So 10, 15, or 20 completions needed for an item.
Got about 1k Strahd and prob 800 baba.
I've pulled 4 items. A hammer and great Xbow from baba, and storm in a bottle and eschers robes from Strahd. Not what I'm looking for, but no one else was in group that could use them either. I'm not one to keep loot if somebody else will actually be able to use it.
Also, ran an rso with high lords. And got the bracers, but it's kinda **** loot compared to ravenloft. And it's such a annoyance to run that raid. Continuous electrical damage, even if the raid is relatively easy and straightforward, no one likes it. It never gets pugged on Sarlona, and after running this raid I now realize I will never run this raid again. Nothing in it I would want except the trinkets, and only if I were to tr into a warlock build, which I don't plan on doing. So dead raid when it came out, and even deader raid now. I put the bracers up for roll.
So I'm aiming at the staff from baba, and the wraps from Strahd. If I could ever get so lucky, but I'm surprised at even pulling the loot I have so far. I've thought about tr into a pure rogue, using Xbow, so now I have the raid Xbow that may actually be in the pipes. But first I'm gonna do celestial Shintao, just to see how it runs. Would like to get a fleet foot necklace too, but that would likely be on the Shintao life, so something to look forward to.
Other than that I've just been running sagas. Getting down amber temple and invitations runs better, getting to know the combinations. I've prob run 7 or 8 sagas so far. Just soaking up reknown rewards, and farming filigree. I sell all the commons for cheap on the shard exchange, because my bag filled up. Only keeping rares any more, so that's what I'm looking for. And farming items for nom nom, keeping the items I wear as extra for another set. Still haven't pulled the fuel packed bracers yet.
For vish, he's sitting ravenloft out. I could get him into the raid cycle, but I haven't been able to bring myself to play him yet, I just enjoy being the monster henshin. Plus I think he's slightly out of meta, but I got slavers gear and good named items for him, but definately more a slavers build. Maybe a pure necro build? Idk, I've also seen clerics be the tank in raids, but I don't like to block. I've also got a fav soul build in the back of my mind, but I think a turning cleric may be better for the sagas, but maybe not for raids.
Well see how it goes. I am getting kinda bored just doing saga and raids and slavers, but I do so enjoy the henshin monk.
Next update when I get the wraps. So close now need 4 more strahds.

[Vish]

Fleetfoot necklace

So no wraps yet,
Didn't get any extra runs in
But ran a baba and a Strahd this morning
And got passed the fleetfoot necklace,
By plotta
My thanks
That is a nice necklace and it's part of the Shintao kit
I figured when I ran Shintao on my deep gnome I had 13.5w at 30
So with fleetfoot and pinnacle, 1.5 + 1, 16w
Plus is got 20 wis so makes 91
I refigured my reaper for +1 wis, so 92

Now some thoughts on Shintao
To go dex?
I mean, I'm sporting a 92 wis
But that's for fists and dire charge
I've seen on the outliers they go dex over wis
Meaning non special tgt monks,
Just built for dps
But some kinda monster dps
Gotta run Shintao, gotta run ld,
Are you in wind stance? Over water?
Or how about fire?
And bumping con over wis?
I mean I can run a 92 wis Shintao
With about a 62 dex
I looked at the numbers,
And even if I go dex over wis
That is about 10 difference
Say 75 dex 75 wis
So you're only gaining +/-5
I don't see it making a difference,
Except losing out on DCs
I guess is tradition over monster
I don't think I could justify it,
Unless you can swap the numbers,
And you won't, since that is a dc compare to ld,
Where you pick up con.
So maybe slightly more the bowling ball,
Over the versatile stunner
But the stunner should not lag far behind
That +5 or even ten,
Will not make the difference

[DrawingGuy]

Vish, just a few comments to answer your questions:

- DEX vs WIS: You're underestimating the difference of DPS a DEX vs WIS has as you also need to factor in Melee Power and Crits against that +5-10 to damage. Ultimately it's still a small difference, though that jumps some if you go Ethereal as DEX applies to Hide, and every point of SA you get is scaled 1.5*MP. However I ultimately see it as a question of: Do you care about Quivering Palm? While a DC based Monk has the secondary advantage of no-fail on all tactics, gear is strong enough that you can still reach effective DCs on Dire, Stunning Fist, and Jade strikes on a DEX or STR build. QP is a powerful tool, but one that takes a lot of investment to get to an effective state - if you put it aside, there is really no reason to not go full DPS mode.


- Stance: This is one of my favorite factors of the Monk pass. They made it where each has a purpose and use, and here's how I'd break it down:
-- Earth (Mountain): Use when you are the tank and need to keep the aggro of a target.
-- Water (Ocean): The best defensive stance for most people due to the dodge gains, and the +2 DC boost can make a big difference for those that build for QP. Use if you need the defenses or DCs. The defensive aspect is boosted by the auto-trip from Perfect Pinnacle.
-- Fire (Sun): This has historically been the Ki-building stance. Getting Earth's crit multiplier made it a solid DPS stance, though Wind is better in most cases still. What would make you want this stance is if you need the Ki buildup (Duality users shouldn't need this), or if you want item bonuses. Fitting in a Jidz means 50 heal amp, and Perfect Pinnacle gives a little CC if you need a touch of balance between DPS and defenses.
-- Air (Wind): Between the stacking doublestrike and 10% offhand for those that use Meditation of War makes this the best DPS stance. Perfect Pinnacle adds more damage procs in this stance as well.

What stance you use should depend on your needs - don't be afraid to switch it up if the situation would benefit from it.


Do be wary that the "monster dps" you saw on the Duality thread may not last... though seeing the thread you started, seems you already feel that is inevitable.

[Paisheng]

Vish, just a few comments to answer your questions:

- DEX vs WIS: You're underestimating the difference of DPS a DEX vs WIS has as you also need to factor in Melee Power and Crits against that +5-10 to damage. Ultimately it's still a small difference, though that jumps some if you go Ethereal as DEX applies to Hide, and every point of SA you get is scaled 1.5*MP. However I ultimately see it as a question of: Do you care about Quivering Palm? While a DC based Monk has the secondary advantage of no-fail on all tactics, gear is strong enough that you can still reach effective DCs on Dire, Stunning Fist, and Jade strikes on a DEX or STR build. QP is a powerful tool, but one that takes a lot of investment to get to an effective state - if you put it aside, there is really no reason to not go full DPS mode.


- Stance: This is one of my favorite factors of the Monk pass. They made it where each has a purpose and use, and here's how I'd break it down:
-- Earth (Mountain): Use when you are the tank and need to keep the aggro of a target.
-- Water (Ocean): The best defensive stance for most people due to the dodge gains, and the +2 DC boost can make a big difference for those that build for QP. Use if you need the defenses or DCs. The defensive aspect is boosted by the auto-trip from Perfect Pinnacle.
-- Fire (Sun): This has historically been the Ki-building stance. Getting Earth's crit multiplier made it a solid DPS stance, though Wind is better in most cases still. What would make you want this stance is if you need the Ki buildup (Duality users shouldn't need this), or if you want item bonuses. Fitting in a Jidz means 50 heal amp, and Perfect Pinnacle gives a little CC if you need a touch of balance between DPS and defenses.
-- Air (Wind): Between the stacking doublestrike and 10% offhand for those that use Meditation of War makes this the best DPS stance. Perfect Pinnacle adds more damage procs in this stance as well.

What stance you use should depend on your needs - don't be afraid to switch it up if the situation would benefit from it.


Do be wary that the "monster dps" you saw on the Duality thread may not last... though seeing the thread you started, seems you already feel that is inevitable.

+1 Nice easy summary of contrasts on dex / wis / str builds and on stance uses.

So I'm thinking of exploring the dex build (did it once long ago) but I have two questions. When you get your statistic level up every 4 levels do you use it for wisdom or dex. Will the Jade strike, stun etc. still be effective in mid reapers (4-6) if I choose dex for more dps here? Giving up QP i've never done, but willing to try -- but certainly don't want to give up the dc's of the other monk sa. Second question: how important is doing KTA regarding dps and dc help here. I hear the dps doesn't work with wraps anyway with this (is that true?). Would rather invest those enhancement points into more melee power in henshin or aasimar I think. And does one really need KTA for the other special attacks outside of QP -- keeping in mind I'm a "complete" completionist with all the bells and whistles and gear.?

Bottom line: how can I maximize the monk handwrap dps through a dex build without losing Special Attack effectiveness in mid to high reaper? It will be fun exploring this, but if you have already put in the leg work / mind work / math into it, I am grateful to shorten my learning curve .

[Vish]

So, there are further considerations
Having to ld, having to pa
So no CE. So less wisdom, no ce, much lower AC
For a big drop in special tgts.
So if you want to go max single tgt,
Even with a whirlwind,
Then go dex and suffer your DCs
May not matter is dps thru the roof
Lose versatility for dps

So, that begs
Do I go dex monk Shintao?
Or more traditional.
Will likely run in water,
For the dodge
And meditation of war, so 5 mdb
I'm guessing over 40 dodge
Maybe some AC from dex
And reflex
I got 5 prowess pieces
Would have to LR,
And reslot sentient
I have to Strahd killah over Shintao dc
But I'd only run this build to post numbers
And I kinda want to see,
Just to compare,
But I'd think a celestial Shintao
Would be a dc build, so wisdom...

What to do?



Ps
Lose stunning fist for dps?
Isn't that counter intuitive?
Gods I'll build a wis

[DrawingGuy]

@Vish - I was pointing out that you do not lose stunning fist or your other main tactics moves on a DPS build as gear gets you high enough. You may not be 95% no fail on everything like a DC build is -- certain bosses and high fort save targets might save on you -- but casters and ranged should still be easy targets, and those are what you care most about anyways. Let's say you have a 56 WIS build:

Stunning Fist:
10 Base
15 Levels
23 WIS
22 Ravenloft item
6-8 Insightful item (depending if you cannith craft combat mastery or just ins stunning)
4 quality (Executioner Helm currently one of the BIS helms)
6 LD
-----
86-88 DC

That is before KtA, Fighter PLs, Reaper bonuses, or any Tactics feats you may take. So even on a non-WIS build, you should be able to push 100 DCs on your important tactics. As I said, effective except on he more extreme targets.

Running in Water stance does not exclude you from running a DEX build - the stance you should use is dictated by your need, not by your main stat despite it providing a stat bonus. Water is my own most-used stance at cap, but that is because I'm taking the aggro of all trash, so I want the survivability, and I *do* build for effective QP, so +2 DCs are very nice.

Also when it comes to CE vs PA vs Precision, that is again a question of what your playstyle prefers. I like CE as that equates to 20+ AC and 20 PRR making it a very nice survival boost. PA equates to +5 damage (unless the handwrap change coded it as a two-hander +10, but didn't test) and a .5[W], which is an additional ~5 damage on Duality wraps. That is very nice, but Precision is 5% attack for less glancing blows and 25% bypass to apply SA. SA can be several hundred damage, so on any target that you need the attack or needs the bypass, Precision > PA for DPS (though obviously the other way around on targets where Precision is not helping). All Combat stances are useful - I use CE as it fits my playstyle and frees up a feat for me, but up to you for your preference.


@Paisheng -- You would put all your level-ups into DEX as well. As I broke down above, you can still get effective DCs even with middling WIS. Note that the INT to damage does work for handwraps. It didn't work before the Monk pass, but with the Handwraps update, they now properly count as weapons and get the damage. This means that KtA helps both DCs and DPS, and is a worthwhile pursuit... but you can afford to drop it as well. KtA is just an AP change anyways - you can always try playing with and without it to see what you prefer.

[Vish]

What to do?

Dex build
Ld, water, meditation
Str 20
Dex 73
Con 57
Int 31
Wis 77
Cha 30
Hp 1345
Hamp 90
Sp 290
Ki 405
AC 197
Dodge 41/41
Fort 81
Reflex 91
Will 94
Bab 20/25
Doublestrike 57
Melee speed 15
Melee power 134
Sr 30
Fort 218
Prr 176
Mrr 40

Balance 79
Concentration 103
Heal 66
Hide 103
Jump 55
Move silent 94
Spot 80
Tumble 54
Umd 46

Stunning fist 101
Tomb of jade 106
Dire charge 106
Quivering palm 60

Ap
41 Shintao
18 ninja
14 henshin
8 aasimar

Gear
Shintao
Duality 16.5 (1d6+6) +101 to hit +83 damage
5 piece prowess
Seeing numbers of 550-600 without blitz or boosts
Seeing crits of 3000

8 action boosts

Notes
Hallelujah, I have reached the holy land
Sporting pinnacle, Fleetfoot and duality

You know that viral video?
With Bruce lee sporting light sabers?
Well, it's like that, for hands
Ran some da
It was like hot knife thru butter
A bit squishier than the henshin,
But different directives
The henshin is traditional dc wisdom,
This is dex based damage
With blitz and mp boost and prowess boost
Easy over 1k base damage/ hit
Unreal
I'm gonna hafta take it on tour of ravenloft
The pinnacle build
The pinnacle
As a celestial Shintao

Theses is just raw numbers so far,
But same gearset
Need to tweak it
Didn't finish twists
Got 4 3 1 1 1
Put in cocoon and dance
Need sense weakness and?
Didn't take epic reflexes, took SOS
It's got good AC and dodge
It's got bit less prr, but running ld, not dc
Slightly more hp, got about same saves
Got about same doublestrike, 30 less mp
But has tomb and void dragon
And qp is low, but was working EE da
Fist and charge ok, not great like on henshin, but viable
Has whirlwind
And knock and unbalancing strike
Missing dismissing strike, need to re ap a bit
Haven't seen the sneak damage yet

Ya, so I burned the midnight oil
Woke up and looked, I had an LR in the bank
See, keeping all that stuff for just the right moment
So here's an insight into the cutting edge

[DrawingGuy]

Is that 134 MP including Blitz and Prowess? Your goal should be 300+ Melee Power, and both of those are a huge key factor in that.

As for twists, here are a few options:
Max Deeps: (drop Hail of Blows at lower levels or if you don't have the PLs, or go Cocoon if you need the heal)
4: Sense Weakness
4: Symmetric Strikes
2: Hail of Blows
1: A Dance of Flowers

DC/Tank: (this gives up DPS to get +5 CON, +5 STR, +2 WIS, +6 concentration for Ki Shout, and Balanced Attacks for passive CC. If you are struggling with self healing, you can drop Dance of Flowers for Cocoon, or Primal Scream if you have other rage buff access.)
4: Sense Weakness
3: Balanced Attacks
2: Acute Instincts
1: Primal Scream (if running in CE, simply drop stance > scream > go back into CE)
1: A Dance of Flowers

Classic:
4: Sense Weakness
3: Balanced Attacks
2: Hail of Blows (this is the flexible one. Dropped when you can't afford it, or what fits you better. Unearthly Reactions gives dodge through enemies and +6 reflex, Dragonhide gives +6 Fort and no-fail, Brace for Impact for 40% fort and +2 all saves...)
1: Rejuvenation Cocoon
1: A Dance of Flowers

Do wish Aasimar Healing Hands counted as Lay on Hands so that Light the Dark or Endless Lay could be used, but it is what it is.

[JoeShmo]

Is that 134 MP including Blitz and Prowess? Your goal should be 300+ Melee Power, and both of those are a huge key factor in that.

As for twists, here are a few options:
Max Deeps: (drop Hail of Blows at lower levels or if you don't have the PLs, or go Cocoon if you need the heal)
4: Sense Weakness
4: Symmetric Strikes
2: Hail of Blows
1: A Dance of Flowers

DC/Tank: (this gives up DPS to get +5 CON, +5 STR, +2 WIS, +6 concentration for Ki Shout, and Balanced Attacks for passive CC. If you are struggling with self healing, you can drop Dance of Flowers for Cocoon, or Primal Scream if you have other rage buff access.)
4: Sense Weakness
3: Balanced Attacks
2: Acute Instincts
1: Primal Scream (if running in CE, simply drop stance > scream > go back into CE)
1: A Dance of Flowers

Classic:
4: Sense Weakness
3: Balanced Attacks
2: Hail of Blows (this is the flexible one. Dropped when you can't afford it, or what fits you better. Unearthly Reactions gives dodge through enemies and +6 reflex, Dragonhide gives +6 Fort and no-fail, Brace for Impact for 40% fort and +2 all saves...)
1: Rejuvenation Cocoon
1: A Dance of Flowers

Do wish Aasimar Healing Hands counted as Lay on Hands so that Light the Dark or Endless Lay could be used, but it is what it is.

If you only have enough for either Sense Weakness or Symmetric Strikes, which one offers more dps overall? I'm sure the math is complicated, but I'm wondering of perhaps one is better overall if you have to choose between the 2.

[Vish]

Is that 134 MP including Blitz and Prowess? Your goal should be 300+ Melee Power, and both of those are a huge key factor in that.

134 is sitting
I've seen 300 with blitz and boosts
Pushes base numbers into 800-900 range
That's bursting tho,
Easy enough to maintain 200
I've seen crits to 5k
Sneak damage is 200,
When it hits

[DrawingGuy]

134 is sitting
I've seen 300 with blitz and boosts
Pushes base numbers into 800-900 range
That's bursting tho,
Easy enough to maintain 200
I've seen crits to 5k
Sneak damage is 200,
When it hits

Unfortunately it is the fully blitzed and prowess boosted temporary numbers that people are using to call "nerf" on Duality. Though I do agree that 1d6+3 is what it should be for more balanced base damage, there's a lot more needed to be looked at for weapon balance than just that. But I won't digress this thread into that.

As for your SA damage, your "when it hits" should be "most of the time". Trash should often be CCed between Dire, Stunning Fist, and jade strikes. Unbalancing Strike will cover you on bosses or anything you can't CC. Fort Bypass should help cover anything not completely immune (which is why Precision is often favored over PA). Ravenloft does happen to be heavy on the immune mobs, so if that is your basis of testing, SA will lose a little luster until you take it outside of there.


@JoeShmo - Sense Weakness is the stronger twist. It is 30% instead of 5% DPS on CCed targets, which is something you're good at doing for trash, and still has damage procs for everything else. If you happen to be stepping into a quest/raid that is almost entirely a boss fight or you can't CC, you can always swap to Symmetric for that and then back.

[Vish]

Ya, so sitting is 134
With blitz full on, 204
And with prowess and mp boost, 334
So prowess is bugged at 100, or WAI...

So that means with this setup, 365 mp on my henshin
But the difference is in the w
16.5 vs 6.5
That's almost triple the damage
But the Shintao plays like a glass cannon
I can kill fast ya, but am taking more damage than the henshin,
With about identical numbers
I'm guessing it has to do with quarter staff, and sweeping
On the henshin I just cleave in front of me,
And monsters keep their distance
On the shinto, all I got is whirlwind,
And I seem to get rushed and mobbed more
So the henshin feelers like a defender with 180 arc,
And the Shintao feels like a one tgt killah
It has taken some getting used too,
I ran some r5 archon yesterday,
And it did great
The high damage to kill fast is like a defense,
But mostly only on one to one
And the real difference isin boss fights
Something with enough hp to beat down for seconds
That's when you get full blitz and can 130 mp boost
But everything else dies too fast, in a few hits
It's taking some getting used to
It's double damage at least over the henshin
And im still relearning to stunning fist, and tomb
So I stayed over month at henshin,
I'll likely stay here as long,
Seeing I'm sporting raid gears
And this boss is a Strahd killah too
So I can use the sunsword, I just don't have ic pierce to complement it

So those claims of 350 mp are justified,
Even if most of it is 20 second boost
But I got 10 boosts, so that's pretty continuous time
Works great for the million hp mobs