Assasin Vistani Knife Fighter?

[TheBlueFox]

So! Knife Fighter! Anyone else totally jazzed for this? I'm actually eager to really see what this new tree can do!

The FIRST thing that came to mind... was actually how silly a knife fighting eldrich knight could be. But the SECOND thing was an assassin!

Now, I believe with all the assassiney stuff I'd like, along with Elven displacement from dragonmarks, that should leave about 26 points to spend in this tree... I mean of course I could multiclass and Assassin isn't really the best class to make a knife fighter (I know, kinda odd when you think about it) but I wanna see what I can accomplish with the tree here. So, Figuring that I need AT LEAST assassinate from the assassin tree, what do you think I should slip in from this tree...

Or, do you think the argument can be made that you don't need assassinate, and can go DEEP into vistani.

The Tier 5s for Vistani look more like they're for a fighter or a swashbuckler, not a rogue, but with all the sneak attack dice you get I mean... it could be viable.

[Saekee]

hey Fox, I have been thinking the same thing. I was thinking to spend enough for some of the assassin tier 5 (no need for knfe spec or light armor mastery) and then take the capstone of vistani. That leaves NOTHING else for AP though.

Why do this? Because you want to splash one or two levels of another class. None are really worth it though because you cannot use anything from their trees (no AP). You even lose TA fast movement...Otherwise I would suggest 1 barb 1 wiz (the latter for 1 ap invisi).

edit: actually, you can reduce MtF stacking and fit in TA faster movement. You swap capstones for more melee power, less sneak and lower assassinate DC--in short, to be a better boss beater. It is difficult to weigh the cutoff point of its value--assassins at endgame and the right gear will really buff their sneak damage but will also have a lot of sneak that gets buffed by MP.

If I had free 12 AP racial from PLs, I would do the 18/1/1 split as an elf as per my Prowler and take the Vistani capstone. Very powerful, few can do it.

[Propane]

I have a 12Ranger/8bard Tempest Warchanter I am going to respect into a Vistani Warchanter.

Looking forward to seeing how this will work - may go all way and pick up all of the cores for Vistani...

[TheBlueFox]

Just off the bat i'm thinking

CORE:
1 - Knife Expertise
1 - Knife Juggler
1 - Knife Specialist



Tier 1
1 - Vistani Knife Training 1 (New animation? maybe cool? Maybe dumb?)
2 - Rapid Attack
2 -Mist Stalker 1

Tier 2
3 - Haste Boost 3
2 - Bleeding cuts
2 - Vistani knife training 2

Tier 3
2 - Deadly Blades
2 - Gifted (Dexterity, because I'm going uuberdex assassin this life)
2 - Vistani Knife Training 3

Tier 4
1 - Celerity
2 - Double Dagger Knife Fighting
2 - Gifted

I think this is a good compliment to the sheer amount of knife damage and sneak attack you'll be dishing out. 100% chance for offhand attacks, good attack speed, haste boosts, and extra damage where I can get it.

The only thing I'm missing is some kind of threat reduction, normally I'd get sly flourish from acrobat when I get haste boost from there, but no luck here...

[unbongwah]

We discussed some VKF build possibilities in this thread: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ng-Vistani-SWF

Results of my brief testing of VKF+Assassin: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post6027543

Note that Knife Spec beats Plays w/Knives by itself; but PwK+Vendetta+Lethality+(Haste or Melee Power) Boost is awesome burst DPS.

If you're planning VKF capstone instead of Assassin's, there's no reason to stick with pure rogue - other than leaving open the option of respeccing into Assassin cap if you change your mind, ofc - so I think monk splash rogues will be pretty strong too. There's some disagreement as to whether Lethality or Ninja Poison / Sting of the Ninja will be stronger DPS, though. Obviously I think I'm right, but I may be biased.

[JoeShmo]

100% chance for offhand attacks, good attack speed, haste boosts, and extra damage where I can get it.

Just curious, where is the 100% chance for offhand attacks coming from?

[unbongwah]

Double Daggers provides +20% offhand procs.

[TheBlueFox]

With the fact that you're already so incredibly stretched thin on enhancements along with the fact you'd be giving up 4 sneak dice AND 2 dex/int, I really really really have a hard time justifying not going for the assassin capstone.

Not to say that there aren't builds that go for it, and certainly not everything is weak to sneak attack, but I can't think of any other class I'd want to splash. The only other thing I'd do is NOT Take assassinate. If that were the case, then I could see me dropping a few levels of rogue and going Monk and seeing where that leaves me.

As it stands now, I'll have to see how well a dagger rogue does in endgame content, and if assassinate is viable as an option against endgame enemies.

So, if Plays with Knives is not stacking with Lethality, then thats 1 point saved I can put elsewhere I guess. I also thought Celerity was 2 points, its actually only 1.

So with those two points I can put that into The second Gifted! I wonder if I can pick dex twice.

[unbongwah]

With the fact that you're already so incredibly stretched thin on enhancements along with the fact you'd be giving up 4 sneak dice AND 2 dex/int, I really really really have a hard time justifying not going for the assassin capstone.

+5% attack speed (which AFAICT stacks with enhancement bonuses) and a net gain of +10 Melee Power is a very strong argument in favor of VKF capstone. +2 to all stats is the cherry on top. I just haven't decided if it's strong enough.

So, if Plays with Knives is not stacking with Lethality, then thats 1 point saved I can put elsewhere I guess.

Read it again: Lethality stacks with PwK or Knife Spec; but PwK and Knife Spec don't stack with each other.

[TheBlueFox]

Read it again: Lethality stacks with PwK or Knife Spec; but PwK and Knife Spec don't stack with each other.

My bad, My brain thought this, but my fingers wrote what they wanted

[unbongwah]

If you're sticking with pure rogue and you want to keep both Assassinate and Assassin capstone, then start with 41 AP Assassin / 23 VKF (Double Daggers + Celerity). That leaves 16 APs: you could do 8 more VKF for Vistani Fortune plus 3 AP Acrobat for Fast Movement; but that doesn't leave enough for Harper (Know the Angles). So maybe 2 more APs VKF for Mist Stalker IV (energy drain immunity), 3 AP Acrobat, 8 AP Harper, and 3 more APs in Assassin to max out Light Armor Mastery? Or maybe skip Harper for 43 Assassin / 31 VKF / 3 Acrobat / 3 <filler>.

If I had more time on Lama, I would've also tested 41 VKF (capstone) / 36 Assassin (Lethality + Assassinate + Knife Spec) / 3 Acrobat (Fast Movement). Would've liked to know if the extra MP and atk speed from VKF made up for the loss of 4d6 SA and lower Assassinate DCs from Assassin capstone.

[Saekee]

Read it again: Lethality stacks with PwK or Knife Spec; but PwK and Knife Spec don't stack with each other.

what is PwK? I am using Wiki's VKF listing and I do not see anything for that. Is that a different acronym for One with Blades, the fourth Core?

If I had more time on Lama, I would've also tested 41 VKF (capstone) / 36 Assassin (Lethality + Assassinate + Knife Spec) / 3 Acrobat (Fast Movement). Would've liked to know if the extra MP and atk speed from VKF made up for the loss of 4d6 SA and lower Assassinate DCs from Assassin capstone.

This is what I was suggesting in Post2. Assuming One with Blades is essential the same as Knife Spec, one does not need to take both since they do not stack as (I believe) you mention above. So Assassin requires 30 plus Lethality (1), Assassinate (1), Deadly Strikes (2), totalling 34? that makes a grand total of 75. Finally, Measure the Foe--this is the tricky one--usually one spends 3 AP for all the ranks but one can also just spend 1 AP. In stealth runs, it would make no difference and otherwise becomes a question of careful playstyle. That would leave enough for Acrobat fast movement.

[TheBlueFox]

Yeah, playing with Knives is another name for One with Blades, You'll notice the next core says: Requires: Plays With Knives.

Not sure which is the finished product.

You say you're moving into deadly strikes. How has Assassin poison been working out for you?

[unbongwah]

what is PwK? I am using Wiki's VKF listing and I do not see anything for that. Is that a different acronym for One with Blades, the fourth Core?

Yeah, sorry: on Lama they called it "Plays with Knives" (PwK), I haven't gotten used to the new name yet. And apparently neither has SSG if they forgot to change the pre-req name on the lvl 18 core.

Assuming One with Blades is essential the same as Knife Spec, one does not need to take both since they do not stack as (I believe) you mention above.

See this post: Knife Spec* is better than One with Blades because the crit range is doubled by IC:Pierce (15-20 vs 16-20); but Vendetta stacks with Lethality so you wind up with a better crit threat range while it's active. So if you're going tier-5 Assassin instead of VKF, you should still take Knife Spec for the extra +1 crit range, regardless of whether you also have OwB. So then the question becomes "is it better to have an instakill and +1 crit range all the time or the extra burst DPS from Vendetta?" Which I haven't decided yet.

EDIT: *I presume the same is true of Swashbuckling, but I didn't have time to test it on Lama and I haven't pre-ordered Ravenloft yet, so I don't have access to VKF on live.

[Saekee]

Thank you.

I think Assassin comes ahead on Tier 5 in the case of crits when coupled with Assassin's Kiss, given the extra crit multi. So the expanded multiplier (plus extra MP as a mythic weapon--I have an epic one with +4) with Knife Spec's better crit range is strong.

[unbongwah]

I think Assassin comes ahead on Tier 5 in the case of crits when coupled with Assassin's Kiss, given the extra crit multi. So the expanded multiplier (plus extra MP as a mythic weapon--I have an epic one with +4) with Knife Spec's better crit range is strong.

It's still the same issue though: 15-20/x5 crits all the time vs 16-20/x5 75% 15-20/x6 crits 25%. Which again is sustained vs burst DPS.

[Saekee]

It's still the same issue though: 15-20/x5 crits all the time vs 16-20/x5 75% 15-20/x6 crits 25%. Which again is sustained vs burst DPS.

Aah right!

[dave_todd]

My question is regarding thrown knives.
The vistani line repeats knife or throwing knife all the way through it.
How much of the assasin line that specifies knife also applies to thrown knives?

[unbongwah]

How much of the assasin line that specifies knife also applies to thrown knives?

Knife Specialization works with throwing knives; Lethality does not, unfortunately. Venomed Blades and Sneak Attack Training will apply to any weapon; though ranged SAs still require being within PBS range.

Anything labeled a melee attack like Assassinate or Shiv doesn't work with throwing knives. I think Weakening Strikes and Deadly Strikes work with any weapon, but remember you need to proc a Poison Strike on your target first, which is melee-only.

[dave_todd]

Knife Specialization works with throwing knives; Lethality does not, unfortunately. Venomed Blades and Sneak Attack Training will apply to any weapon; though ranged SAs still require being within PBS range.

Anything labeled a melee attack like Assassinate or Shiv doesn't work with throwing knives. I think Weakening Strikes and Deadly Strikes work with any weapon, but remember you need to proc a Poison Strike on your target first, which is melee-only.

Interesting, and thanks for the fast reply.
Assassinate, shiv, poison strike, bleed them out, execute are clearly labelled melee only so i was ready for that. I can follow thru that no assassins mark means no Weakening/deadly, and i can live with that.
Is Lethality competence based, or does it stack with Knife Specialisation? You get a +1 range and multiplier with the Vistani line anyway.

What about Knife in the Darkness, Dagger in the Back: do you get dex to hit and damage with throwers with those?

Tell me more about PBS range, how much it is, how to increase it (apart from the feat PBS) etc?
Would you say a 20 rogue with all the SA bonuses of Assassin plus Vistani is a viable build? The other option i am looking at is Deepwood Stalker cross assling or half elf rogue dili.