Theory Crafting Vistani SWF

[SpartanKiller13]

Hey all, someone was asking on the reddit so I theorycrafted a SWF option. Thoughts?

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SWF Knife build:

Bard 11, Rogue 5, Fighter 4 - Bard for SB, DDoor, FoM, CCW. Rogue for Evasion and SA. Fighter for Feats and Defender Stance swap option.
Bard 12, Rogue 5, Fighter 3 if you can live without a feat (or you're human/PDK). Gives +1% DS and +1 enhance, which ends up being worth more than +1d6 SA.

Race doesn't really matter.

Dex>Con>Else. 10+ Str recommended for carrying cap.

Get enough Balance for SWF line. Max Perform for Bardy things. Trap if you have gear.

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Feats: 7 base, 3 Fighter; SWF x3, SM x2, Precision, IC: Piercing, Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, and Extend. (Edit: I'd probably swap WSpec for Improved Shield Bash)

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AP:

Vistani - 41 AP - Core 6, T5 - grab most of everything good.
Swashbuckler - 21 AP - Core 3, Crit attacks, Skirmisher, Dex to Dmg, Perform-based knockdown.
Stalwart Defender - 13 AP - Core 2, +20% HP, +25 PRR/MRR
Assassin - 1 AP - Core 1 - Dex to Hit

4 AP leftover for racial/mood etc
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Attack Speed:
30% Combat Style - SWF
15% Enhancement - Haste - does not stack with items
5% Vistani Blade Master - Core 6

50% standing bonus attack speed, with Vistani Haste Boost for 30% more.

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Doublestrike:
20% Rapid Slash - Vistani T1 - 10s duration and 10s CD.
8% Improved Shield Mastery (15% with epic twist)
5% Vistani Plays with Knives - Core 4
5% Vistani Celerity - T4
(5% PTWF at lvl 28)

38% sustainable Doublestrike (50% in epics), with SB's DS boost for 30% more. Also grab a DS item for a bit extra (+11 at 20, +17 at 30).
Thanks Unbongwah for pointing out that Killer and Rapid Slash are both Morale bonuses the numbers were getting good.

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Melee Power
20 - Vistani Blade Master - Core 6
20 - Single Dagger - Vistani Tier 4
6 - SWF Combat Style
4 - WF/WSpec

50 sustainable MP

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It's a Dex-based build (with Evasion) requiring you to wield a Buckler and a dagger, focusing on getting a lot of Attack Speed, Doublestrike, and Melee Power. Has solid crit profile and a ton of attacks that boost said profile.

SB T5 is better than Vistani T5, but costs you the juicy Vistani C6. Use SB T5 for leveling, then respec at 20.

You have 3 useful action boosts, so keep them on cooldown. Lots of active attacks, use the buff ones first then all the cool damaging ones.

Comes with Displacement, excellent Dodge, and Dex-max Evasion for defense. Smattering of PRR/MRR/immunities from Vistani. Obviously you'll do better with a tank around pulling aggro, but you should deal a lot of damage allowing for your backup tank method of: kill them faster than they kill you.

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For epics, LD is hilariously good (extra Melee Power). Make sure to twist US's LSM for 7% DS.

Epic Feats: Overwhelming Critical > Inspire Excellence > Blinding Speed > Epic DR

Epic Destiny Feats: PSWF > PTWF (5% DS) > Deific Warding/Dire Charge

Scion of Arborea for 20 MP.

[unbongwah]

20% Rapid Slash - Vistani T1 - 10s duration and 10s CD.
0-20% Killer (easy to build & maintain mid-combat)

According to the descriptions, these are both morale bonuses and therefore won't stack. Which - hey! - silver lining means you don't need to spend as many APs on Assassin.

I presume the Swashbuckling and Vistani core bonuses to crit profile are both Competence and won't stack; but the tier-5 ability should stack (knock on wood).

[SpartanKiller13]

According to the descriptions, these are both morale bonuses and therefore won't stack. Which - hey! - silver lining means you don't need to spend as many APs on Assassin.

I presume the Swashbuckling and Vistani core bonuses to crit profile are both Competence and won't stack; but the tier-5 ability should stack (knock on wood).

Oooh darn I thought I had avoided all the stacking issues. Significantly reduces the need for Rogue, but Evasion is still nice. Fatal Harrier seems decent, but it's only up to 10% AS over Haste and costs either Evasion or Defender stance, so idk... You won't qualify for Druidy stuff until 24/27 when you can get a wood buckler anyway, so it's literally just for the AP burn.

Build needs Bard 11, Fighter 3, and Rogue 2 for evasion or Druid 3 for FH. I think Evasion will be really nice with a Dex-max. Rogue 5 for 3d6 SA? If you have a group that's probably the best option. Otherwise Fighter 6 for another +2 MP?

Then you get Defender stance (which should work with a buckler), 13 AP in for +20% HP and 25 PRR/MRR. 1 into Assassin for Dex to hit, and throw the other 11 into Swashbuckler/racial/wherever - there's some nice stuff in SB just out of price range.

Almost certainly SB and Vistani bonus to crit profile doesn't stack, but the SB one is doubled by ICrit so it's superior, and the T5 seems like it has to stack or it's 90% useless for a Vistani build.

Updated OP.

[Magdragons]

What about TWF Vistani? Any ideas on that?

[SpartanKiller13]

What about TWF Vistani? Any ideas on that?

I wrote out a whole spreadsheet, but basically the issue is that Tempest capstone and T5 are better than Vistani capstone/T5 for TWF. Obviously you can't class split if you want Tempest capstone, but I don't really know what other class you'd want for TWF.

Pure Ranger is easiest, grab Tempest T5 & Capstone. Dance of Death is hilariously good at clearing trash mobs, which is most of the game. Also has free AP to burn into racial etc (Aasimar for heals, HOrc for Brutality, whatever).

If you go 14/6 Paladin/Ranger, you can grab Zeal at the cost of your C5/6 in Tempest (capstone in Vistani instead); you lose 5 Incorp, but have a net gain of 5 DS. Feels really awkward, and you'd have to make some hard decisions in your AP split (You want Tempest T5 with Vistani Capstone), but that could be good. I'll write out both below.

Otherwise, 6/11/18 Ranger are the breakpoints (6 for Dex>Damage, 11 for GTWF free, 18 for DS/Incorp) so you could consider 11/9 splitting with Cleric for a Domain (Heal for SLA, Destruction for 3% DS, Animal for HP and 15% Fort bypass) or 11/5/? with Cleric Luck domain for Displacement, or 18/2 with Rogue for trapping.

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Feats: If you took less than 11 Ranger, take GTWF. Otherwise, all you need is ICrit:Piercing. Maybe consider grabbing a bunch of Weapon Focus feats for MP, or Precision for Fort bypass, or PA>Cleave>GCleave if you want earlygame strength. Stunning blow if you can make DC's. Ranged feats if you want a swap option. Grab a Dragonmark. Skill Focus:Swim for extra OP'ness. This build really doesn't care.

Skills: Jump 10+ is great for melee, UMD is great in general. Max Swim because it's amazing and everyone will be jealous of you zooming by.

Abilities: Max Dex, this is to-hit & damage, reflex saves (w/Imp evasion if you have 9+ Ranger), and your Tempest T4 defensive buff. Con after that, hp is good. Str 10 is nice for carrying cap. Spare points here to buff Swim. Avoid Int, it gives skill points and you don't want those points into Wis if you're Aasimar.

Race: Aasimar seems nice, Healing Hands seems great esp for heroics. Not as good for a 14/6, as you won't have many AP to burn.
Otherwise, Dex bonus is nice = Drow/Elf/Halfling. Don't be a Human, they have too many skills/feats for this build.

Enhancements:

20 Ranger: 44 into Tempest (full T5, Capstone), 31 into Vistani (T4 except for Double Daggers, Core 5), 5 free - Aasimar recommended (would be 4 Healing Hands).
6+ Ranger best multiclass damage: 39 into Tempest (T5), 41 into Vistani (Capstone, everything else).
6+ Ranger tankier build: 41 into Vistani (Capstone, T5), 30 into Tempest (C3, T4), 9 free - Defender stance recommended for 25 PRR/MRR, or if you have 7+ Racial AP Aasimar for 10 MP + heals.

VKF T5 is more survivable with better single-target damage, Tempest T5 has Improved Evasion and Dance of Death = better trash clearing.

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I'd probably run Ranger 20 unless you need to be a bit tankier for raids etc.

Maybe someone with more TWF building experience will comment? I've never been a huge fan.

Even epics are super straightforward, run in LD. You have more epic feats/destiny feats than you need, and Scion of Arborea for melee power.

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TL;DR:

Ranger 20 is easy and good.
Whatever 14/Ranger 6 with T5 in Tempest is best AoE.
Whatever 14/Ranger 6 with T5 in Vistani leaves the most free AP's.

[unbongwah]

What about TWF Vistani? Any ideas on that?

Three possible options:

• Secondary tree for Assassins and Tempests. Assassins benefit more, IMO.
• Casters who want a solid melee DPS option without heavy multiclassing esp. wizards w/Harper and Blood of Vol FvS who want their melee and caster stat to be the same.
• Other melee classes who want to use daggers (largely for flavor). Vol Paladin is one option, but I was planning to make a HO barb named "Drax."

[Saekee]

I was just looking at the tree. It seems that a SWF vistani requires 3 bard; only assassins boost a dagger as well as a swash but a swash can do it with so little investment. Assassin's kiss has the boosted multiplier and is easy to get.
Given the sheer amount of melee power and sneak damage scaling, I would think that adding as many rogue levels as possible might work. So 13 rogue is a great cutoff (opportunist and improved evasion). That leaves 4 levels for fighter, basically, for feats and defensive stance. Improved feint is a must-have feat now for melee rogues and will work great if a cleave could be snuck into this...Or maybe hit improved feint and then toss the knives at bluffed mobs.

[Saekee]

I think for TWF I would do 16 rogue/3 tempest/1 barb. That would give me faster sneaking stacking, fast run speed and boosts to attack speed and offhand strikes as well as sneak damage.

[unbongwah]

Given the sheer amount of melee power and sneak damage scaling, I would think that adding as many rogue levels as possible might work. So 13 rogue is a great cutoff (opportunist and improved evasion). That leaves 4 levels for fighter, basically, for feats and defensive stance. Improved feint is a must-have feat now for melee rogues and will work great if a cleave could be snuck into this...Or maybe hit improved feint and then toss the knives at bluffed mobs.

I have a few rog 13 / bard 3-5 build ideas I plan to dust off for Vistani.

I think for TWF I would do 16 rogue/3 tempest/1 barb. That would give me faster sneaking stacking, fast run speed and boosts to attack speed and offhand strikes as well as sneak damage.

What're the rgr lvls for? The +10% from Tempest core won't stack with the +20% from Double Daggers - or rather there's no point going past 100% offhand - and the +3d6 SA from DWS is less than what you would get from staying pure rogue. My gut instinct is that Assassin tier-5 is better than Vistani's; not sure which capstone is better, though.

EDIT: the main "problem" with Vistani is it seems to be inferior to pure Assassin / Tempest, IMO, so if you're already playing a rogue or rgr, there's no incentive to respeccing primarily into VKF. Instead use it as a secondary tree, particularly on an Assassin for the extra doublestrike and Double Daggers so you hit 100% offhand procs.

[unbongwah]

Thinking about it some more, one possibility is rog 13 / rgr 6 / barb (or whatever) 1: tier-5 Tempest (38 APs) / Vistani capstone (41 APs) / DWS (1 AP). Leaves nothing for Harper or even Acro Fast Movement, unfortunately, but you get the AoE goodness of Tempest, the crit / doublestrike / offhand / MP / speed bonuses from Vistani, 11d6 SA (7d6 rog lvls + 1d6 DWS + 3d6 ISA feat) plus Ethereal Plane for lots of sneak atk.

It isn't necessarily better than a conventional Tempest - just, ya know, something different to mess with.

[Doc_Hammer1980]

what about swf/twf drow 8 rogue / 6 paladin / 6 monk (or something like that)?

8 rogue for traps, some low hanging assassin fruit, and sneak attacks
6 pally for the Vol religion and special ability plus save bonuses and grab stuff from the pally tree of your choice (I like Kotc)
6 monk for feats, ninja spy stuff and shadow veil (or even henshin as the crits with lighting the candle could be fun), and other monkish things (if swf bard instead of monk, although I do think monk would still work)

Leveling order: 1 rogue / 2-7 pally / 8-9 monk / 10 rogue (to catch up with skill points) / 11-14 monk / 15-20 rogue.

Drow seems to work well but I bet you could even come up with a solid aassimar or gnome version (however some decisions about the very useful racial trees would have to be made).

If drow, I'd probably dump str and go with a full dex build.

I've been playing around with the drow version in the character planner and the biggest problem (as was mentioned before) is that there are too many options.

I also notices that none of the vistani enhancements require you to build for DCs. That's kinda nice.

Has anyone been running a vistani build yet? How has it worked out for you so far?

[unbongwah]

6 pally for the Vol religion and special ability plus save bonuses and grab stuff from the pally tree of your choice (I like Kotc)

The other stuff from pally may be worth it, but the duration of The Blood is the Life is "24 + (6 * # of Religious Lore feats)" seconds, which with 6 pal lvls is 24 + 6*6 = 60 seconds. For an ability with a 10-minute cooldown, that's not long enough to be really useful, IMO. Also the PRR/MRR bonus is based on Religious Lore feats, so it's only +6.

[Doc_Hammer1980]

The other stuff from pally may be worth it, but the duration of The Blood is the Life is "24 + (6 * # of Religious Lore feats)" seconds, which with 6 pal lvls is 24 + 6*6 = 60 seconds. For an ability with a 10-minute cooldown, that's not long enough to be really useful, IMO. Also the PRR/MRR bonus is based on Religious Lore feats, so it's only +6.

****, I didn't even consider the long cool down. However, the main reason I suggested so many rogue levels was simply because I didn't think monk and pally levels helped as much. Maybe go deeper into pally. Even a 13pal/3rogue/4monk or 12pal/4rogue/4monk would get you plenty of goodies to play around with.

Another thought I had was to consider the old paladin/sorcerer combo (I believe it was 12pally/8sorc). Purely flavor but a heavy armored battlesorcerer with knives...

[unbongwah]

However, the main reason I suggested so many rogue levels was simply because I didn't think monk and pally levels helped as much.

More rogue lvls means more sneak atks. More monk lvls means more Melee Power from Henshin and/or poison damage from Ninja (Poison Exploit / Sting of the Ninja / Deadly Exploits combo), though you're AP-constrained if you're going for VKF capstone.

But since this is originally a SWF build thread, I was thinking rog 13 / ftr 4 / bard 3. Bard splash is for Swashbuckling + Skirmisher, ftr for extra feats & defensive stance, rog for SAs and two bonus feats (I usually go for Opportunist and Imp Evasion). Feats are the usual Swashbuckle-y ones (i.e., SWF x3, Shield Masteries, etc.). Enhancements are 41 VKF / 11 bard / 13 SD (Tenacious Defense) to start, leaving 15 APs to tweak things: e.g., Harper for Know the Angles + Versatile Adept or Assassin for Venomed Blades + SA Training + Assassin's Trick.

[SpartanKiller13]

****, I didn't even consider the long cool down. However, the main reason I suggested so many rogue levels was simply because I didn't think monk and pally levels helped as much. Maybe go deeper into pally. Even a 13pal/3rogue/4monk or 12pal/4rogue/4monk would get you plenty of goodies to play around with.

Another thought I had was to consider the old paladin/sorcerer combo (I believe it was 12pally/8sorc). Purely flavor but a heavy armored battlesorcerer with knives...

Paladin 14 gets you Zeal for 10% DS, might be worth going 14/3/3 if you can. Holy Sword won't stack with VKF crit enhancements, but I think 10% DS is better than whatever you're getting for Monk 4 etc.

For Pally/Sorc again I'd recommend 14/6, Sorc 4th level spells aren't that great for melee and you can grab Zeal while still having VKF crits and Haste/Displacement.

[unbongwah]

Paladin 14 gets you Zeal for 10% DS, might be worth going 14/3/3 if you can. Holy Sword won't stack with VKF crit enhancements, but I think 10% DS is better than whatever you're getting for Monk 4 etc.

At that point you might as well dust off the old pal 14 / monk 6 splits so you can add Shadow Veil, extra MP from Henshin, etc.

[SpartanKiller13]

At that point you might as well dust off the old pal 14 / monk 6 splits so you can add Shadow Veil, extra MP from Henshin, etc.

It's just very hard to compete with Swashbuckler. Zeal is beaten by 15% DS using a buckler (comes with 10% dodge as well), and improved crit profile (Swashbuckling +1/+1 doesn't stack, but it is doubled by IC:P so net gain of +1 range over VKF's). Also you should be able to use Defender stance's +20% hp with a Buckler.

14/6 Paladin/Monk would have Zeal, +30 MP (pretty nice), and Heavy Armor as an option (Bard can grab Rogue for Evasion if you want, and Monk already has it). Shadow Veil is nice, but Displacement is straight better unless I'm missing something. You can scroll/clicky invisi anyway if you really need it.

Displacement, +10% Dodge, and LSM giving 20 PRR with your buckler while still being able to use Evasion seems that Bard wins generally on the defensive aspect also (assuming ~40 PRR from Heavy Armor).

Bard build will have ~50 MP, vs 80 from Paladin/Monk represents 20% damage gain on Paladin, but crit profiles:

19-20/x2 base
17-20/x2 IC:P
16-20/x3 VKF

(1*0+14*1+5*3)/20 = 1.45

15-20/x3 Swashbuckling

(1*0+13*1+6*3)/20 = 1.55

So SB gains 7% back on crits alone, and by the time you hit epics with LSM giving a little extra DS and LD/Master's Blitz/Epic Levels kicking in reducing the Melee Power discrepancy I think SB would actually come out ahead on DPS as well. Also you'll have a DS action boost extra vs Pally/Monk.

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It seems to me that Paladin/Monk only really wins on having better Fort/Will saves (Divine Grace OP) and LoH (my favorite heal button in DDO) whereas Bard split will have better DPS and general survivability. Also it can build entirely around Dex (and Con) as an Evasion build, so it comes out better in that regards (Pally/Monk will need Str/Con/Wis/Cha). Also you get an extra gear slot (your buckler) which also hits sometimes for damage. Was that a fair assessment?

[unbongwah]

Zeal is beaten by 15% DS using a buckler

Doublestrike is mostly a wash, since we're talking LSM + SB cores (+maybe Opportunist) vs Zeal + Wind stance.

Shadow Veil is nice, but Displacement is straight better unless I'm missing something.

Shadow Veil is 25% incorporeal which stacks w/Displacement. There's only three other sources for it, AFAIK: PM wraith form, Shadowdancer, and Primal Avatar.

[Yes, folks, you can use PA for something other than tree builds - amazing yet true! ]

Given the importance of damage avoidance in the current DDO Reaper metagame, Shadow Veil shouldn't be discounted so readily.

[SpartanKiller13]

Doublestrike is mostly a wash, since we're talking LSM + SB cores (+maybe Opportunist) vs Zeal + Wind stance.

Shadow Veil is 25% incorporeal which stacks w/Displacement. There's only three other sources for it, AFAIK: PM wraith form, Shadowdancer, and Primal Avatar.

[Yes, folks, you can use PA for something other than tree builds - amazing yet true! ]

Given the importance of damage avoidance in the current DDO Reaper metagame, Shadow Veil shouldn't be discounted so readily.

Good point, I wasn't counting Wind Stance. Regardless, the rest seems to favor Bard - especially since you can cast Haste which is pretty strong earlier, and you get Buckler smashing for a feat.

Ah I didn't realize Shadow Veil is incorporeality, I assumed it was also concealment. Very nice; however, for me it's inferior to Displacement if I have to choose one or the other: I have Ghostly slotted (10% incorp) and don't have Displacement clickies. If you do have enough clickies to keep Displacement up, Shadow Veil comes out quite nicely ahead. If you don't, take Displacement instead.

50% Displacement + 10% Ghostly = 55% avoidance. Obviously if you can get both, 50% Displacement + 25% Shadow Veil = 62.5% avoidance, which is pretty great.

FYI per the Wiki there are 7 effects giving 25% incorporeality, but those that you didn't mention are awkward to use or very limited.

[Xyfiel]

After spending dozens of hours working on any single or combination of recent new things to try out I just did a TR into a Aasimar 15Druid/4Monk/1Fvs. I have a bunch of builds for later but I needed to hit 30 and refill primal sphere this life. The build will use Vistani capstone, Fallen form from Aasimar, twf daggers but swap to wraps for stunning fist or piercing resistant. Primal Avatar for +7 wisdom and twf column.

I have not done a full out detailed build on forums in 4 years and with a large percentage of gear likely to change in a few months not in a rush to work it out. Would also like to play it first. With that said here are the basics and some speculative numbers I came up with if I choose to gear it with what we have now.

Aasimar LN
15D/4M/1Fvs
Alternative 16D/3M

16dex
16con
20wis
Str/Int/Cha base. Wisdom should hit 90. Dex secondary(hit/damage).

Concentration, Heal, Spellcraft, Monk extras in Spot/Balance, 1 tumble/perform, any remainder in UMD

Twfx3, Quicken, Completionist, SF Evocation, Imp. Crit. piercing
Stunning Fist, Precision
Embolden, Overwhelming Crit., Epic Reflexes, Glacial Wrath
Tactics, PTWF, Dire, Air
Have to verify Embolden works on Earthquake.

43 Vistani, 19 Aasimar, 8 Henshin, 9 Ninja, 1 Shintao

Avatar, Evo +3, evocation augmentation(or +2 from DI), tactics, scream, acute instincts

Earthquake DC: 93
Dire DC: 122
Fist DC: 130
Again numbers are approximate depending on gear

5 sources of healing: Healing Hands, Heal spell, Regenerate(single), Cocoon, Healing Curse
70% base Healing amp: 10 Shintao, 60 Aasimar
4 Stuns: Dire charge, Balanced Attacks, Stunning Fist(swap as wanted), Glacial Wrath
74 base melee power: 10 Fallen, 20 Henshin, 20 Vistani capstone, 24 PA
+5% damage and +1 crit on 19-20 from PA
Ice Storm, Creeping Colds, and Wrath for spell damage
Dex hit and damage from Ninja Spy(will be 10-15 modifier off a normal melee)
Wisdom to tactics and damage from Fvs
Decent saves from good wis/dex/con, water stance, monk/fvs splash
Decent dodge, primal travel for +50% occasionally
Since I am not using Tree I will have spirit to use the 25% Incorp for tougher fights

I have not calculated what hp/sps/spell power/prr/etc. would be. Mainly just leveling it and seeing how it works for now. All I did so far was TR and get some items from bank, off to start questing. If anyone wants an update later let me know.