PvP, those who like it and those who hate it, and its current state in the game

[Selvera]

3.5 was horribly balanced for pvp; leaving it far too quick, swingy and unsatisfying.

DDO hasn't improved on 3.5 for pvp.

If I want to pvp I'll just go play League of Legends.

Just an opinion.

[nokowi]

Here is my vision of what it would take:

PVP would require an entirely new set of rules and character abilities, and be independent of what happens outside of pvp.

It would need it's own chat channel.

The best way to do it in DDO would be to have stats based on character level/class and then have a pvp tree that lets players spend points for abilities.

You could start off naked, with any pvp equipment would be purchased through winnings from pvp battles.

Damage delivered or taken is scaled by having pvp specific gear and abilities (stuff outside of PvP: AP, destiny, etc do not apply).

The build choices and power (for the same class combo and level) are the same for everyone, with the exception of pvp gear that is earned through playing.

Rewards for winning would be based on player record and cosmetic-only.


Of course there might be a pvp event once a year where you earn some sort of gear for the regular game.

[Lycurgus]

1. Would you consider playing PvP in DDO?

Never. It is a scourge on Xen'drik and must be stopped.


2. What do you think about the current implementation ofPvP?
Destroy it once and for all.


3. What would you do with your subscription if DDO became aPvP-centric game?
Broken the arrangement as soon as I could get another goodchance.


4. If you started receiving random PvP invites, how wouldyou respond?

Forget that. It's not my fight, I'd leave and go somewherefar from where PvPers would ever trod.


5. How do you feel about those who PvP?
They lack a free spirit and a good heart.


6. What would Cordo do if he bought into the PvP mentality?

Tell the adventurers they could pass if they won a battle ofwits. Then destroy them all.

[dunklezhan]

In order to balance the game for PvP it would negatively effect PvE because players and enemies don't play buy the same ruleset. In other games that have more PvP that is better supported the systems for players and enemies are far more balanced so PvP can be a thing. in DDO PvP is mostly first shot wins.

PvP players do not like that (it was well evidenced when PvP was more a thing) and they tried to make certain limits in the PvP pits but if they ever wanted to even sniff at something close to balance hey would need to make core changes. Given that in DDO, even at it's height, real PvP was at best a fraction of a percentage of the population (seriously actual Role Players vastly outnumbered them) making core changes to the game that would determent everyone else makes no sense.

These are solid points.

If you're playing a game based on a DnD 3.5 ruleset looking for PVP, you've come to the wrong game quite honestly, quite apart from how far the video game PVE balance has itself inflated. But if you've ever played a tabletop game where the players turn on each other at a remotely middle to high level, you'll know that if it does happen, it really is whichever character hits first just... wins. In that regard, a PVE DDO character vs another in a normal quest environment is quite true to the game!

In order to make it work at all they already have had to system-fudge the hell out of it, and it still doesn't really work even in its present limited form, by all accounts.

My own suggestion for "how to PVP" is simple enough and goes along the similar 'just throw out the PVE stats cos it'll never work' approach as our current offering: Kobold fighting pits.

Even if they weren't a player race ever, you could still absolutely red v blue in pre-skinned teams as kobolds, with entirely new made up PVP stat names and mechanics, and silly (yet well balanced and awesome looking) krazy kobold PVP moves and attacks and debuffs and so on. This would provide a simple, entertaining and balanced system without messing with existing PC class abilities, and would be relatively easy to score and league table.

The implementation of such a thing however would essentially mean inventing a whole new game, just for a PVP audience that once gone, we'll never get back, and would require an entirely separate dev team they probably couldn't afford without knowing they already had an audience sat there waiting. Plus they'd have to invent a whole store economy that PVPers would invest in which somehow didn't let them buy their way to winning. Possibly some of this could be done by offering PVP adventure packs, perhaps with different match types or different kinds of kobolds which can be deployed (within specific PVP packs, otherwise we're back to buying victory again) perhaps even taking a "challenges" approach with extra materials for the winning team sort of deal.

It might even be awesome.

But since a sudden influx of the right combination of dev, marketing and advertising resources is unlikely to materialise at this point, it could realistically only now happen at all if they took resources away from producing stuff the vast majority of their remaining player base value more.

In short: I'm in no way against having PVP as a thing in the game as long as it doesn't impede on my PVE experience and crucially it MUST allow team play - this is DnD for heaven's sake.

And I can't see any way for that to happen, short of the SSG office lottery syndicate winning really, really big.

[FranOhmsford]

1. Would you consider playing PvP in DDO?

Never. It is a scourge on Xen'drik and must be stopped.


2. What do you think about the current implementation ofPvP?
Destroy it once and for all.


3. What would you do with your subscription if DDO became aPvP-centric game?
Broken the arrangement as soon as I could get another goodchance.


4. If you started receiving random PvP invites, how wouldyou respond?

Forget that. It's not my fight, I'd leave and go somewherefar from where PvPers would ever trod.


5. How do you feel about those who PvP?
They lack a free spirit and a good heart.


6. What would Cordo do if he bought into the PvP mentality?

Tell the adventurers they could pass if they won a battle ofwits. Then destroy them all.

Nice one.

[DaviMOC]

As far as I know about it. It never meant to be. It wasn't on the initial project but was added later after some requests as a prototype half implemented that never had the needed further implementations. On current state i feel like it cant be done without breaking the whole game apart and taking serious risks in departments where ddo already "won". Our devs are already overflown with current game issues and giving pvp meaning its a long step that a game old as it is cant take. It was fun back when it became eberron unlimited. There was plenty of people doing it on harbor's tavern area and i had fun moments while I was ganking with my brother on our low toons(lvl 4ish) against high level ones(11ish). I always missed purpose on DDO pvp and now the game evolved in some way that it just cant be done in a fun way, maybe if it had pvp since always we would never face the kind of unbalance we have today on PvE.

[Gremmlynn]

This issue, at least, is solvable. They could apply reaper rules to PvP. Skull value to be determined.

Less the reaper trees I'm assuming?

Else reaper progression would be a major factor in outcomes.

[Renvar]

As others have mentioned, our abilities are tuned to the mobs we face in PvE. And most PC's can do way more damage, use way more spells, with way higher DC's than anything you will see from at level mobs. We cry and moan about mobs that hit for 4000, when I've seen screen shots of players hitting for 32,000. Or more. repeatedly.

Most any PvP environment I've been in requires some self nerfing/ground rules to create balance because the balance isn't there. And without it, there is no competition. Just one person insta-killing the other over and over. Even with two melees this happens.

As a result, there is not measure of skill involved. Lacking that, it quickly becomes boring.

Outside of a way to do testing, as others have mentioned. It is useful for figuring out procs and stacking and such.

[Renvar]

1. Would you consider playing PvP in DDO?

Never. It is a scourge on Xen'drik and must be stopped.


2. What do you think about the current implementation ofPvP?
Destroy it once and for all.


3. What would you do with your subscription if DDO became aPvP-centric game?
Broken the arrangement as soon as I could get another goodchance.


4. If you started receiving random PvP invites, how wouldyou respond?

Forget that. It's not my fight, I'd leave and go somewherefar from where PvPers would ever trod.


5. How do you feel about those who PvP?
They lack a free spirit and a good heart.


6. What would Cordo do if he bought into the PvP mentality?

Tell the adventurers they could pass if they won a battle ofwits. Then destroy them all.

+1

[J-2]

Im not pro-pvp in any way. It just does not seem to better the game or its players.
It will ultimately end with one person who knows the ins and outs enough to be undefeatable.

I equate it to a mosh pit. It starts out with good people who just want to have some fun.
They knock each other around, and its usually good natured fun.
But then, the clown shows up wearing spikes, and it becomes no fun for virtually anyone but him.

I have had to add many people to my mute list because I grew weary of their constant taunting and harrassing of other players.
Occaisionally, I would even do my part to help run them off, but I would have to knowingly break the rules to do so, and those types
know how to play the system and report you for it.

I would encourage a channel interface for PVP for those who dont want to play with all of the general public.
Just like parties or guilds, you would have to be invited into a particular click, and if you're a DB, then you can get the boot.
That way, when the clown shows up, hes not having fun at someone elses expense. A player can just opt not to play with him.

[Chai]

PVP focused ONLY on killing other player characters has a negative influence in many games, and has a very specific crowd which enjoys it.

PVP which focuses on many objectives, and includes larger group play (like 50 -vs- 50) has a positive influence in many games, and large portions of the MMO community enjoy it. (something along the lines of Alterac Vallley in Vanilla WOW and WvW in GW2)

The issue here is the lag issue in DDO, which the company admits is influenced by active entities per instance, would discourage the latter, which in large part makes PVP in DDO a novelty mode only, and not something to be taken more seriously unless that issue is addressed in full. Observing the length of time that issue has not been addressed by a real fix in PVE and only addressed by band-aid work arounds like Dungeon Alert, we can logically conclude that this will not happen.

[Wonedream]

Wow, a lot of thought here about this topic.

And so many good points. I see very easy fixes to the balancing act, the easiest that comes to mind is to add a spell effect that hits all players in the arena every 3 to 5 seconds, dispelling effects and maybe removing 1 buff at a time... but I am not concerned with fixes in this thread, I am concerned with opinions and information and other ideas that are not my own. I see some brilliant suggestions here, like keeping it team vs team, and such, but also see legitimate concerns about the chatter.. all very interesting to learn about.

I had a PvP fight about 2 months ago, I was questing with some other person for about 2 or 3 hours, I think he was young, in his twenties or even still teenager, at one point he sorta commanded me to go PvP... I was playing a druid he was a paladin, both level 9 or something.. I figured why not? We entered and he rushed at me... call lightning with all meta magic on, and items to amp spell power... dead in one hit. He seemed aggrovated by this and went to recover and challenged me again. Same thing. Again. Same thing. Again.. ... same thing... though he survived 1 of my blasts I easily finished him off with the next... he said I was cheating. lol. I was thinking to myself, well, this was pointless wasn't it?

For myself, the number one thing holding me back from PvP is there is no point to it. I don't care about the imbalances, I'd end up exploiting them myself and having imbalance fights :P until they fixed it with something like a constant spell effect targeting anyone in the arena and removing nasty effects, or some other balance easy fix that doesn't require any real effort :P But why even bother? There is no title, and if there was, it wouldn't be enough if it iddn't equate to some game difference, but it is nice sorta. If there was something like a Gladiator Tree that only worked in PvP.. oh hell yeah, I'd be there WAY MORE OFTEN, I am not saying they should or should not do this, just that something like that would definitely get me to go to challenges and even ignore the chatter just to get the goodies... oh there is so much that can happen to such a place.

The most appealing part of it is the chance to fight real intelligent opponents, not AI. They have more will power! It isn't that I like being bully or showing up, but I love unexpected things to try to adapt to and interesting opponents... but as noted, what could be interesting about 1 hit from a Call Lightning spell that turns no evasive toons into ashes? And all the other tricks.. :P


About PvP in PnP, as a DM I never encouraged it, but at times it did happen, and usually lead to tension between players that outlasted the game. Unless I actually set up the campaign intently that way, which I did do once. I used oriental adventures and rolled up about 100 NPC monks, gave em all their own sheet, and drew really good pictures of them, and then let the players make monks or ninjas or something like that, and basically the entire adventure was like street fighter gone DnD. They loved it! Since they knew what they were there for, they enjoyed PvP, because that was a big part of it. No one was getting killed usually... but some of the bad guys did get nasty..

I hope to hear more angles about this, if there are more angles to be heard. I think it could be a lot of fun, but if they did work on it, they would want to figure out the easiest way to make it happen without overhaul programming. Sometimes it takes just one good idea in the right place to avert the other idea that would have been exhausting to conduct. A good example of this is if they spent hours working on a new system for PvP, days, etc... only to see it appeal to a small audience and **** off a larger audience... bad idea! If they spent a few hours to add a spell effect to the place, or 2 spell effects.. or something that seems small but could end up making the place more balanced, and now that 1 to 5% are talking about what they enjoy and doing it, good idea. I'd probably check it out a bit, but wouldn't get that caught up in it unless it involved incentive beyond a fair fight. I'd jump all over a Gladiator tree, but that is more complex obviously then adding a spell effect to make the place more balanced. If they did decide to do more with PvP, they would do will to start with tiny things and if this builds a niche of players who play DDO more often for that reason, and it is profitable, they could start to consider how to assemble a team or even just 1 or 2 guys that cover it while the main branch stays on PvE.

Not sure what will happen to PvP in the long run. I suspect this game will be around for another 10 years and probably change a lot in the face of objections and disagreements (like reaper gave us). I wonder if by using the approach the has the least amount of effect with the most amount of effect to quickly and easily balance the fights more would revive it. If the fights were fair, would it come back to life?

[phillymiket]

PVP focused ONLY on killing other player characters has a negative influence in many games, and has a very specific crowd which enjoys it.

I agree with this.
"I'm ganking you now by surprise and stealing your stuff" is not a game I want to play.
However, I enjoy some varieties of PvP.

(positive portion of my post)
DDO could certainly have a 6 -vs- 6 arena game like capture the flag, control the node, etc type thing.
I don't see why that would be more laggy than a raid, seeing as both have 12 players and the PvP would have no mob AI to deal with.
Party balance in PvP is more workable than one on one balance.
Seems like the actual area and mechanics would be pretty simple (I'm not a coder so that's a guess.)
A brand new queue system would need to implemented which would be a big challenge I suspect.

(Doom portion of my post)
I just don't see the point.
This game doesn't even have in-house GM's anymore, unless I'm mistaken, or a proper CS department, if I am to believe these forums.
So keeping the appearance of a pulse with new quest updates is probably the mission now and major revamps or quality of life additions and fixes are probably not in the cards.

[whoolsey]

1. Would you consider playing PvP in DDO?

Never. It is a scourge on Xen'drik and must be stopped.


2. What do you think about the current implementation ofPvP?
Destroy it once and for all.


3. What would you do with your subscription if DDO became aPvP-centric game?
Broken the arrangement as soon as I could get another goodchance.


4. If you started receiving random PvP invites, how wouldyou respond?

Forget that. It's not my fight, I'd leave and go somewherefar from where PvPers would ever trod.


5. How do you feel about those who PvP?
They lack a free spirit and a good heart.


6. What would Cordo do if he bought into the PvP mentality?

Tell the adventurers they could pass if they won a battle ofwits. Then destroy them all.

Lol
+1

[Crazywist]

I'd like the pvp if it didn't have such a boring area. A square block, all open. It would be nice if you could actually do some hunting and hiding. A bigger area would be a lot better imo, but i never play pvp anyway so I don't really care either way.

[SiliconScout]

...
DDO could certainly have a 6 -vs- 6 arena game like capture the flag, control the node, etc type thing.
...

Just wanted to point out that DDO DOES have this. I have actually played it once and it was sorta fun but it was all 2nd level characters. After about 2nd level things fell off the rails in a hurry and it quickly because very NOT fun. Well unless you were the ones getting the kills.

[phillymiket]

Just wanted to point out that DDO DOES have this. I have actually played it once and it was sorta fun but it was all 2nd level characters. After about 2nd level things fell off the rails in a hurry and it quickly because very NOT fun. Well unless you were the ones getting the kills.

It doesn't really.
It has a "private room" you can port to (basically) where you can fight w/o interlopers from the pit but it has no rules or structure to it.
It's the exact same thing as the pit but in a private instance.
That's very different than a proper arena where you have to protect ground, where there is a proper score kept, rankings, rewards.
You need all that stuff to be "real" PvP IMO rather than the window dressing afterthought DDO has always had.

[Annex]

This issue, at least, is solvable. They could apply reaper rules to PvP. Skull value to be determined.

Agreed.

I would do something like this:

1) At character creation, every first life character gains a new, free PVP Feat called Gladiator. Gladiator does absolutely nothing accept flag the character as on his or her first life. Any form of Reincarnation removes Gladiator forever.

2) Modify existing PVP areas or add new ones that only allow access to characters with the Gladiator PVP Feat. Level lock these areas at 4, 8, 12, 16, 20, and 30. If a character without the Gladiator Feat or higher than the Designated Level attempts to enter one of these new PVP arenas, he or she receives a 10 second warning to leave. If the character remains after 10 seconds, he or she suffers instant death and reappears at his or her Bind Point with all worn equipment reduced to zero durability. I normally hate instant death mechanics but, in this case, the game should harshly punish anyone who attempts to cheat.

3) Allow Gladiator characters to access PVP areas as instances with up to 12 people. This allows players to initiate controlled battles without interference from walk on Gladiators. Note that anyone could join and attempt to enter such an instance, but Rule (2) above would sweep out all the cheaters, ensuring fair fights. Upon entry, a 60 second countdown timer begins. Players may only attack one another after this timer expires.

4) Within a PVP Arena, reduce all damage output by 90%.

5) Within a PVP Arena, reduce all Healing, Negative Healing, and Reconstruction by 80%.

6) Within a PVP Arena, reduce all Crowd Control to 1 Second duration.

7) Entering a PVP Arena strips all Guild Buffs.

8) Create a new, global Gladiator channel for PVP players. Give GMs the power to gag accounts, only allowing them access to the Gladiator, Guild, and Party channels. If someone cannot keep it in the Gladiator, Guild, and Party channels, a GM can and will compel the person to comply.

9) When examining a Gladiator character, allow the examiner to see Experience, Reaper Experience, Tomes, and Total Favor of the examined character. When the Gladiator feat disappears after any Reincarnation, examination no longer reveals these things.

10) The game developers must state, in absolutely unequivocal terms, that they will NEVER adjust ANY character creation rule to accommodate PVP concerns. It is completely off the table.

-----

My rules attempt to do a number of things:

1) Limiting PVP to First Life characters eliminates the gigantic power discrepancies resulting from Past Life Feats. Players may still acquire the best possible equipment from quests, use rewards from Favor, use Reaper benefits, use Ability Tomes and Skill Tomes from the Game Store, and use Power Up Potions from the Game Store. This forces players to expend some effort to prepare a character for PVP and helps fund the game. It also creates a venue where first life characters shine.

2) Limiting PVP Arenas to specific level ranges promotes fair fights.

3) Instanced PVP Arenas promotes fair and organized fights.

4) Limiting damage output allows fights to last much longer and thus provide a better stage for player skill.

5) Limiting healing output prevents fights from lasting forever and heavily favoring healers.

6) Severely limiting Crowd Control prevents one character from completely locking down another. PVP players enjoy fighting, not standing around helpless.

7) Stripping Guild Buffs promotes fair fights. Not everyone has easy access to a L150 Guild with a Kraken.

8) As a rule, a significant portion of PVP players cannot control their worst impulses, especially with regards communication. The GMs need a system in place, in advance, to muzzle offensive players and they need the backing of management to ruthlessly use it.

9) Allowing more information from an examination promotes fair fights and allows players to see where they can improve their PVP characters.

10) In game after game, developers address PVP concerns ruining PVE play. DDO allows for such expansive and diverse character creation that developers cannot possibly balance it. Turn that weakness into a strength. Let players explore that massive character design space and find the pearls. Keep adding to that design space and never go back to balance for PVP. In this way, PVP will evolve over time without even one second of developer effort.

-----

The developers absolutely must make these points clear to PVP players up front:

1) We cannot possibly balance PVP for characters with Past Life Feats. Therefore, to keep PVP balanced and open to all players, it only supports First Life Characters. We will NEVER change this so do not bother asking.

2) We cannot possibly balance character design for PVP. You, the player, must explore the massive design space of character creation and find the best possible builds. If someone finds an overpowering build, so be it. You need to figure out a counter for it. We will NEVER adjust ANY element of character design to help you.

3) What happens in PVP stays in PVP. If you spew toxic garbage in other channels we WILL muzzle you FOREVER. There is no appeal process.

-----

Please note, I absolutely _detest_ PVP and the unsportsmanlike conduct it elicits in people. However, if a relatively inexpensive PVP Update can make PVP shine and generate a bunch of paying customers, DO IT.