Swashbuckling and cleave

[dbik]

Is this a good idea? I think cleaving kinda takes away the attack speed gained from SWF. However, does exploit weakness work off of each mob hit?

I was thinking about working up a build and include Supreme Cleave, but that might be better for a Warchanter.

Any thoughts on the matter are appreciated!

Thank you.

[cru121]

if you can fit in the cleaves, cleaves are fun.

getting cleaves on a swashbuckler has two main problems:
- lack of feats
- lack of strength for power attack

supreme cleave is fun too. does not require PA... but 17 AP is a lot.

[dbik]

if you can fit in the cleaves, cleaves are fun.

getting cleaves on a swashbuckler has two main problems:
- lack of feats
- lack of strength for power attack

supreme cleave is fun too. does not require PA... but 17 AP is a lot.

2 questions for you good sir.

1) does exploit weakness proc from every mob hit during the cleave? seems like that would make a crit nearly inevitable on every cleave.

2) would it be possible for a STR based Half orc warchanter to be CLOSE to swashbuckler dps? I was thinking a 15/3/2 split for Bard/Barb/Rogue. Full racial points in half orc, tier 5 warchanter, supreme cleave and barbarian power attack. (for a total of 3 power attacks)

I love playing a Warchanter, but I'm trying to figure out a way how to NOT swashbuckle (not even a little bit) and still put up decent dps.

[Fivetigers33]

I love playing a Warchanter, but I'm trying to figure out a way how to NOT swashbuckle (not even a little bit) and still put up decent dps.

Single target boss DPS, swashbuckler is going to win, that's just the way it is. However, warchanter spinning ice is awesome CC, and makes all frozen enemies take 50% more damage, basically increasing your dps by 50%. A cleaving Warchanter is pretty good. When I had mine I'd go Spinning Ice, Great Cleave, Cleave, Shout SLA, Sonic Blast SLA, and if anything was still alive, Greater Shout. I had maximize and empower too. Just make sure you take Swashbuckler high enough for CHA to damage, or be PDK and get CHA to hit/damage for short swords.

[dbik]

Single target boss DPS, swashbuckler is going to win, that's just the way it is. However, warchanter spinning ice is awesome CC, and makes all frozen enemies take 50% more damage, basically increasing your dps by 50%. A cleaving Warchanter is pretty good. When I had mine I'd go Spinning Ice, Great Cleave, Cleave, Shout SLA, Sonic Blast SLA, and if anything was still alive, Greater Shout. I had maximize and empower too. Just make sure you take Swashbuckler high enough for CHA to damage, or be PDK and get CHA to hit/damage for short swords.

Thank you for the reply. Ive done two lives as a PDK bard. Warchanter with tier 3 swash. Im trying to go a different route this time...namely, a STR based warchanter 15/3/2 bard/barb/rogue. Half orc. I know that my DC's will be **** for things like disco ball, but using a "stunning of insightful stunning" item has help me pull off a similar build before for the freezing ice DC's (and later for dire charge). Right now Im just theory crafting this while I finish up my dragonborn lives.

If/when I give it a shot Ill post the build and videos. I think the build has promise though.

[Whitering]

If you did like 6 fighter and 14 Bard you should be able to fit in cleave, I ended up taking the shield masteries instead, but likely should have taken cleave on my one character I tried it out on, it's a rogue, fighter, bard test for the Shadar-Kai Iconic. It does okay.

[Fivetigers33]

Thank you for the reply. Ive done two lives as a PDK bard. Warchanter with tier 3 swash. Im trying to go a different route this time...namely, a STR based warchanter 15/3/2 bard/barb/rogue. Half orc. I know that my DC's will be **** for things like disco ball, but using a "stunning of insightful stunning" item has help me pull off a similar build before for the freezing ice DC's (and later for dire charge). Right now Im just theory crafting this while I finish up my dragonborn lives.

If/when I give it a shot Ill post the build and videos. I think the build has promise though.

If you want to avoid Swashbuckler altogether and just be STR based, you could try to figure out the optimal split for adding in fighter levels and going Warchanter/Kensai. I don't have a ton of barbarian experience, only played one through 10 levels, but from what I've seen is that it seems like it would be easier to add dps by splashing fighter than splashing barbarian. Of course if you're going for a theme character warchanter/barbarian, have at it! Just remember you can't cast any spells while raged.

[dbik]

If you want to avoid Swashbuckler altogether and just be STR based, you could try to figure out the optimal split for adding in fighter levels and going Warchanter/Kensai. I don't have a ton of barbarian experience, only played one through 10 levels, but from what I've seen is that it seems like it would be easier to add dps by splashing fighter than splashing barbarian. Of course if you're going for a theme character warchanter/barbarian, have at it! Just remember you can't cast any spells while raged.

Its not the barb rage I'm after...its supreme cleave. I'm ok with giving up 4 str for the ability to still heal and buff. I use the barb rage for boss fights if there is another healer in the group, though there rarely is.

Also, I want to stay on the higher end of of the Warchanter tree because I want to retain my freezes with respectable DC's. I will be wearing a "stunning of insightful stunning" item at all times, but if I'm going to be STR based, I'll need the bard levels to help with DC's since my CHA will be lower. 15 is the lowest amount of Bard I think needs to be in a build and still play a support role, which I enjoy.

Another question I have is this though. At level 18 in Warchanter, you get full BAB based on character level. Comparing apples to apples here and all other things being equal, would supreme cleave be more dps than cleave, great cleave and full BAB? I'm not sure how important full BAB is when I intend on cleaving 90% of the time.

The build with supreme cleave, i can fit in two metamagics, namely extend and maximize for more healing juice...no full BAB though.

With the 18/2 Bard fighter, I have to use those two feats to fit in the two feat based cleaves, which leaves my heals much weaker.

Decisions, Decisions.

[florestan]

Its not the barb rage I'm after...its supreme cleave. I'm ok with giving up 4 str for the ability to still heal and buff. I use the barb rage for boss fights if there is another healer in the group, though there rarely is.

Also, I want to stay on the higher end of of the Warchanter tree because I want to retain my freezes with respectable DC's. I will be wearing a "stunning of insightful stunning" item at all times, but if I'm going to be STR based, I'll need the bard levels to help with DC's since my CHA will be lower. 15 is the lowest amount of Bard I think needs to be in a build and still play a support role, which I enjoy.

Another question I have is this though. At level 18 in Warchanter, you get full BAB based on character level. Comparing apples to apples here and all other things being equal, would supreme cleave be more dps than cleave, great cleave and full BAB? I'm not sure how important full BAB is when I intend on cleaving 90% of the time.

The build with supreme cleave, i can fit in two metamagics, namely extend and maximize for more healing juice...no full BAB though.

With the 18/2 Bard fighter, I have to use those two feats to fit in the two feat based cleaves, which leaves my heals much weaker.

Decisions, Decisions.

Just as an alternative, you can take a couple rogue levels for trapping, evasion, and sneak attack damage. If you go 16/4 you can boost the sneak attack damage out of the Assassin tree and get venomed blades and then Killer for a great boost to doublestrike. I know you've been talking about cleaves, I typically just take cleave and then use spinning ice as my great cleave. Seems to do plenty well enough with DPS and AoE but I do use ToEE weapons to boost AoE.

[Revolted]

Supreme Cleave would imply at least 3 lvls of barb. I wouldn't go that way. I'm playing for the last couple years Swashbuckler builds on my main, and the best split I had was 12FTR/6/BARD/2ROG, although closely followed by 12/bard/6fighter/2rog. Anyways, I don't understand why melees don't use Cleave+Gcleave more often, I enter a group of mobs and just spam them, and I tend to be top killer in most parties I'm in (this until r4, not above) Yes, the cleave feats don't gain anything from the huge attack speed you have, but in the middle of a group of mobs is still the fastest way to kill them all, and in reaper you want that to be as fast as possibly.

Also, yes, exploit weakness does extra dmg to every helpless monster around you, so you can freeze/dire charge a group of mobs, spam cleave and gcleave and you have a group of dead mobs.

[Fivetigers33]

Another question I have is this though. At level 18 in Warchanter, you get full BAB based on character level. Comparing apples to apples here and all other things being equal, would supreme cleave be more dps than cleave, great cleave and full BAB? I'm not sure how important full BAB is when I intend on cleaving 90% of the time.

Speaking from experience, if you have gear raising whatever ability determines your attack bonus (STR, etc.) and gear raising your accuracy (ring of prowess, random loot with + accuracy), you'll never notice the difference between full BAB and only 3/4 BAB.

When I had a warchanter, I went cleave/great cleave and loved it. Typical encounter went like this Spinning Ice > Great Cleave > Cleave > Shout SLA (empower/max/intensify) > Sonic Blast SLA (empower/max/intensify) > Greater Shout.

[dbik]

Just as an alternative, you can take a couple rogue levels for trapping, evasion, and sneak attack damage. If you go 16/4 you can boost the sneak attack damage out of the Assassin tree and get venomed blades and then Killer for a great boost to doublestrike. I know you've been talking about cleaves, I typically just take cleave and then use spinning ice as my great cleave. Seems to do plenty well enough with DPS and AoE but I do use ToEE weapons to boost AoE.

I've done several versions of a rogue bard. I liked it, but I'm trying to get away from the trapping side of things and focus on other roles for now. I've played several bards. I'm trying to optimize one as a Warchanter that does decent dps without having to swashbuckle in order to do it. I'm thinking barb/fighter is the splash to go with for this instead of rogue.

Supreme Cleave would imply at least 3 lvls of barb. I wouldn't go that way. I'm playing for the last couple years Swashbuckler builds on my main, and the best split I had was 12FTR/6/BARD/2ROG, although closely followed by 12/bard/6fighter/2rog. Anyways, I don't understand why melees don't use Cleave+Gcleave more often, I enter a group of mobs and just spam them, and I tend to be top killer in most parties I'm in (this until r4, not above) Yes, the cleave feats don't gain anything from the huge attack speed you have, but in the middle of a group of mobs is still the fastest way to kill them all, and in reaper you want that to be as fast as possibly.

Also, yes, exploit weakness does extra dmg to every helpless monster around you, so you can freeze/dire charge a group of mobs, spam cleave and gcleave and you have a group of dead mobs.

Again, I dont want to swashbuckle and this build isn't about pure DPS. I'm trying to optimize the Warchanter tree for the maximum DPS it is capable of while still retaining at least 15 levels of bard. A swash build will most likely still out DPS any version of this I come up with, but I just want to see it to its max potential while still having the support tools I like.

Speaking from experience, if you have gear raising whatever ability determines your attack bonus (STR, etc.) and gear raising your accuracy (ring of prowess, random loot with + accuracy), you'll never notice the difference between full BAB and only 3/4 BAB.

When I had a warchanter, I went cleave/great cleave and loved it. Typical encounter went like this Spinning Ice > Great Cleave > Cleave > Shout SLA (empower/max/intensify) > Sonic Blast SLA (empower/max/intensify) > Greater Shout.

Thats good info to have. If I go the 15/3/2 route that I am leaning toward now, I'll at least get 5 levels of full BAB.

Thank you for all the replies! If anyone has any other ideas how to maximize the dps on a Warchanter, minimum 15 level Bard, no swashbuckling....I'd love to hear your thoughts, too!

[unbongwah]

I'm trying to optimize one as a Warchanter that does decent dps without having to swashbuckle in order to do it. I'm thinking barb/fighter is the splash to go with for this instead of rogue.

Your best bet is Warchanter / Kensei mix, something like ftr 6 / bard 14. See my Axesinger thread. That precludes a bard 15 split, though. And I don't have any suggestions for how to make WC freeze atks more effective on a HO; all my WC builds have been PDK for the DC bonus from CKT.

maximize the dps on a Warchanter, minimum 15 level Bard, no swashbuckling

Your design specs are at odds with each other, because a max of 5 non-bard lvls and no Swashbuckling really restricts your DPS options; even more so if you want tier-5 WC for Spinning Ice et al.

[Fivetigers33]

If anyone has any other ideas how to maximize the dps on a Warchanter, minimum 15 level Bard, no swashbuckling....I'd love to hear your thoughts, too!

Warchanter DPS comes mostly from making enemies helpless (meaning they take 50% more damage) via freezing them. So you will want this DC as high as possible via gear/feats/ability bonus. If you plan on just cleaving most things, you could use a 2 handed weapon for greater base damage. I didn't see if you had mentioned what weapon style you were going for or what race. If you do splash fighter, PDK as a race could be an options, and they get CHA to hit and for damage with Greatswords for a measly 3 AP I believe.

[dbik]

Your best bet is Warchanter / Kensei mix, something like ftr 6 / bard 14. See my Axesinger thread. That precludes a bard 15 split, though. And I don't have any suggestions for how to make WC freeze atks more effective on a HO; all my WC builds have been PDK for the DC bonus from CKT.

Your design specs are at odds with each other, because a max of 5 non-bard lvls and no Swashbuckling really restricts your DPS options; even more so if you want tier-5 WC for Spinning Ice et al.

I dont believe they are at odds with eachother at all. I set my parameters, and Im trying to maximize my dps within those parameters. If I wanted to dps as a bard, Id probably be a warlock. ????

[dbik]

Warchanter DPS comes mostly from making enemies helpless (meaning they take 50% more damage) via freezing them. So you will want this DC as high as possible via gear/feats/ability bonus. If you plan on just cleaving most things, you could use a 2 handed weapon for greater base damage. I didn't see if you had mentioned what weapon style you were going for or what race. If you do splash fighter, PDK as a race could be an options, and they get CHA to hit and for damage with Greatswords for a measly 3 AP I believe.

Right now Im working on racial past lives, but the end goal is a THF great axe Half-Orc, with at least 1 barb splash for the 3rd power attack, at least 2 fighter levels for the extra feats.

That is, unless someone else has a better idea for a splash?

I considered a rogue thief acrobat, but TA and warchanter are both very hungry trees.

It would be nice to get the two extra helpless damage mods though. One from HO and one from TA. (Then another one in epics)