Purely offensive S&B build

[Ralmeth]

I have improved shield bash, yes. I know it is probably suboptimal but wanted to try it.

I have 41 in VG, rest between racial and kensei. VG I take to capstone.

By the way, it seems like the capstone is giving 50% stun chance, not 5%. Sev said it was "working fine" so I really hope they don't nerf it.

My guess is that it might be capstone related.

Interestingly, I also started doing some theory crafting on something similar, but hadn't gotten nearly as far as you. I tested the stun chance on the Pally Vanguard capstone (because of course I keep an old Pally alt around for testing things like this), and wanted to confirm that I was also getting a 50% stun chance with active shield bashing.

[Gilga1]

Now it could be either fighter or improved shield bash.

Tested. I can confirm: the key is improved shield bash

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Obviously it is less damage than blitz over time. It is just the equivalent of fury shooter but only on single target and melee range. It is also obviously a bug, so builds;t around it is a gamble. That said, it might be currently powerful for reaper. Why? Because in good groups melees are not the ones dropping trash, insta killers are. So you want on demand super high DPS to drop a reaper or a DWed champ. And obviously that boss. In that content, the DPS output of exploiting adrenaline bashes is obviously higher than whatever you could do twitching or auto attacking on TWFers.

thats what im saying, the improved boss dps could be worth massively gimping ones overall dps in the rest of a quest. then again it might not. also as a general note i disagree with the idea that blitz is very unreliable in difficult reaper content because if play smartly and carefully you can drastically reduce your deathcount.

Let's put it this way: the DCs are probably as high as those of any fighter taking tactical supremacy and being decently geared. Lower dcs are more a limitation brought by my lack of STR items and poor optimization at the moment, not a feature of the build. You cannot fit KTA because you want the best t5 from kensei: +20MP, +1 range; and then the 5th core for 20MP. So really, you are looking at 33 AP minimum in kensei. 33Kensei+41VG is 74 AP, which does not leave room for KTA.

as stated before now in this thread, there are in fact exactly enough ap left in that split for kta. personally i think that +22 dmg bonus is pretty huge but the more important thing imo is definitely the tactics bonus because its +22 on a d20 scale. improving your dcs by over a full dice roll is bananas. i also think its that being at cap would be the best place for a +22 dmg mod challenging a +20 mp mod for best obtainable dps on a given build given that cap is when you have access to the most mp making the exact point where mp stacking can have the greatest effect of diminishing returns.

Here is the thing, it is not 15% dbs advantage. The capstone brings you 5% DBs + 5% attack speed, which is arguably better than 10% DBs. So really, it is <5% DBs difference. For me a bigger draw are the 4 extra action boosts that would allow me to be in power surge reliably even in longer quests.

fair enough

It is 75-80% pre shield bashes, with shield bashes I am getting DPS in the same range even without KTA. That is, I am not being able to rule out the hypothesis that they are actually the same of a pure kensei TWF. Again, weapon effects though favor TWF.

My play experience tells me that moving bosses are more a thing than what you seem to suggest here. Caster bosses will ALWAYS reposition, for example. It tends to be melee bosses that stay still more; that is, if you can lock them with a tank. Either way, the moving aspect of TWFer has made me curse many times. If the DPS is currently in the same ballpark, I would tend to say that S&B is ahead. Specially because you can twitch with S&B much like you do its SWF.

i can accept that a dps snb build is 75-80% of the dps of a twf build pre bashes on paper. to convince me that such a build is actually worth doing compared to a twf i would want to see an actual side by side performance because sacrificing dps and hp to gain random cc would not make me want to play the build. if it was actually more dps under normal in game conditions then i would definitely be thinking about using the build because to me the most important stat as a melee dps player is sustained single target dps because if your melee cant do that well, then its a badly built character and that stat is primarily affected by build and gear and not skill. caster bosses usually have an interval where you can dps them fine enough before they reposition again and you can also herd them towards walls or corners or trap them with bodies.

the reason that i doubt the math is that as far as i knew vanguard dps was still bad, perhaps that was using builds that were trying to be vanguards and tanks and thus not good comparisons to dps builds, but also that was even as good as math says it is id think it would have been discussed more before now. then again, it is a melee and melee is, as you say, not an easy button and things that arent easy buttons are decidedly less popular so...

If you want to solo high reapers, or want to solo raids, or want to be able to carry any PUG through any content, this is not your build. But neither is a TWF / THF conventional kensei.

if there is a build that can carry ANY pug through ANY content, idk what it is.

[BigErkyKid]

Tested. I can confirm: the key is improved shield bash

Glad we figured it out!

Now at least the feat is worth taking :P

I have to admit that it is pretty funny to have a build that does more damage with active bashing than auto attacking...

[BigErkyKid]

[QUOTE=the_one_dwarfforged;6017833]thats what im saying, the improved boss dps could be worth massively gimping ones overall dps in the rest of a quest. then again it might not. also as a general note i disagree with the idea that blitz is very unreliable in difficult reaper content because if play smartly and carefully you can drastically reduce your deathcount.

Oh yeah. After adaptation I die way fewer times now in reaper. Deflect arrows every 2secs helps a lot with that too :P

as stated before now in this thread, there are in fact exactly enough ap left in that split for kta. personally i think that +22 dmg bonus is pretty huge but the more important thing imo is definitely the tactics bonus because its +22 on a d20 scale. improving your dcs by over a full dice roll is bananas. i also think its that being at cap would be the best place for a +22 dmg mod challenging a +20 mp mod for best obtainable dps on a given build given that cap is when you have access to the most mp making the exact point where mp stacking can have the greatest effect of diminishing returns.

The capstone is 50% stun (~6 secs) on a bash. I think it is definitely worth considering. If you take the capstone, there isn't enough AP to take 41 VG - 33 kensei (keen edge, one with the blade, core 5) and then KTA. Unless of course you want a ****** 30 seconds KTA that will cost you 45 freaking SP. So really, capstone or KTA.

I just computed the DPS with KTA and not 20MP from one with the blade using a +15 base damage from KTA. Remember that KTA is half your int modifier. To get 22 damage you need unattainable intelligence. Anyway, 15 from KTA and 20MP slightly favored one with the blade in my example. And as more damage is added (base), 20 MP will be more valued (raven loft power creep incoming).

i can accept that a dps snb build is 75-80% of the dps of a twf build pre bashes on paper. to convince me that such a build is actually worth doing compared to a twf i would want to see an actual side by side performance because sacrificing dps and hp to gain random cc would not make me want to play the build. if it was actually more dps under normal in game conditions then i would definitely be thinking about using the build because to me the most important stat as a melee dps player is sustained single target dps because if your melee cant do that well, then its a badly built character and that stat is primarily affected by build and gear and not skill. caster bosses usually have an interval where you can dps them fine enough before they reposition again and you can also herd them towards walls or corners or trap them with bodies.

You can no longer trap mobs, they pass through bodies nowadays. In my spreadsheet they are almost if not identically the same damage, but you can twitch with S&B to gain attack speed and you already know the pain that is TWF.

I think that the combination of way better CC and similar enough dummy DPS, with better practical DPS (maybe), makes it worth considering. That is, there is at least one build with a shield that is up there in DPS, as opposed to just gimping your damage.


the reason that i doubt the math is that as far as i knew vanguard dps was still bad, perhaps that was using builds that were trying to be vanguards and tanks and thus not good comparisons to dps builds, but also that was even as good as math says it is id think it would have been discussed more before now. then again, it is a melee and melee is, as you say, not an easy button and things that arent easy buttons are decidedly less popular so...

if there is a build that can carry ANY pug through ANY content, idk what it is

.

Obviously not anything, but I would feel more comfortable carrying people through content on a well geared caster than on this. It is a niche build for melee lovers that refuse to jump into the FOTM wagon.

The damage is nice, stunning anything is nice, and being a bad arse dwarf with a shield and axe makes me smile.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Unless of course you want a ****** 30 seconds KTA that will cost you 45 freaking SP. So really, capstone or KTA.

I just computed the DPS with KTA and not 20MP from one with the blade using a +15 base damage from KTA. Remember that KTA is half your int modifier. To get 22 damage you need unattainable intelligence. Anyway, 15 from KTA and 20MP slightly favored one with the blade in my example. And as more damage is added (base), 20 MP will be more valued (raven loft power creep incoming).

i disagree with that sentiment.

i just checked and i was at 66 int on a pure fighter which would be 14 kta, though i could have sworn id seen on the tooltip for either dire charge or kta that i was getting a 22 difference, guess im just crazy. i still think thats pretty massive for dcs though. i really dont think that if i was able to hit 200+ prr without defensive stance and the % hp was out of the question that there is anything id rather take than kta even if its cost and uptime are ******.

You can no longer trap mobs, they pass through bodies nowadays.

since when?

Obviously not anything, but I would feel more comfortable carrying people through content on a well geared caster than on this. It is a niche build for melee lovers that refuse to jump into the FOTM wagon.

well, what content are you talking about? anything non reaper you can carry anyone not actively trying to wipe you super easily on melee. reaper idk about carrying people because you have a variable of skulls and builds which reaper does not treat all equally, and also i havent really played much heroic reaper cause i cant make myself. i feel like r1 is a common easy heroic grinding difficulty for maximum ease of completion/time/xp and i have full confidence in melee builds in r1 :/

[BigErkyKid]

i disagree with that sentiment.

i just checked and i was at 66 int on a pure fighter which would be 14 kta, though i could have sworn id seen on the tooltip for either dire charge or kta that i was getting a 22 difference, guess im just crazy. i still think thats pretty massive for dcs though. i really dont think that if i was able to hit 200+ prr without defensive stance and the % hp was out of the question that there is anything id rather take than kta even if its cost and uptime are ******.

I guess it is a matter of taste. But I don't think neither make or break the build. 45 SP per 30 secs on a fighter though are hard to sustain without pot chugging. I have all the relevant PLs and still, with endless faith and an augment (and ship), I am around ~400SP. Assuming you devote all your SP to KTA you would have fewer than 10 usages. I guess one could save it for the end fight.

Personally, I'd rather have good death and the +3 passive to damage than such situational boosts. But that's just me.

since when?

I don't even know when they changed it, but mobs are somehow incorporeal. The kobold boss on slavers for example likes to hop around and there is no boxing that sneaky b.

well, what content are you talking about? anything non reaper you can carry anyone not actively trying to wipe you super easily on melee. reaper idk about carrying people because you have a variable of skulls and builds which reaper does not treat all equally, and also i havent really played much heroic reaper cause i cant make myself. i feel like r1 is a common easy heroic grinding difficulty for maximum ease of completion/time/xp and i have full confidence in melee builds in r1 :/

I am talking about legendary quests / raids. I despise heroics and leveling, so I don't build for that.

I can see many instances where a scaled legendary quest with a full party of rookie players could wipe me on this fighter. Even outside of reaper. Heck, I'd even take a monk instead of this fighter in those instances. With crappy AC and no dodge, every swing of a champ is a hit. Really, the build is very punishing to play (as are harmor kenseis in my experience). Elemental damage, arrows, traps, grazing hits; you eat it all.

Fighters are rather "advanced" and party dependent builds in my experience. You need to know when to use all your boosts (shrine placement), pace your SP consumption, mob positioning and much more. I could solo LE slavers p1 on a monk without shrining, but certainly not on a fighter.

I guess that's one of the reasons why they really aren't a popular class. You can build for damage alright, but so many things can go wrong. Safer and easier to snipe mobs from a distance.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

I guess it is a matter of taste. But I don't think neither make or break the build. 45 SP per 30 secs on a fighter though are hard to sustain without pot chugging. I have all the relevant PLs and still, with endless faith and an augment (and ship), I am around ~400SP. Assuming you devote all your SP to KTA you would have fewer than 10 usages. I guess one could save it for the end fight.

Personally, I'd rather have good death and the +3 passive to damage than such situational boosts. But that's just me.

so its an action boost. non fighters can struggle to hit even 10 or so haste boosts. would you really say its superior to take +3 dmg over haste boost?

With crappy AC and no dodge, every swing of a champ is a hit. Really, the build is very punishing to play (as are harmor kenseis in my experience). Elemental damage, arrows, traps, grazing hits; you eat it all.

Fighters are rather "advanced" and party dependent builds in my experience. You need to know when to use all your boosts (shrine placement), pace your SP consumption, mob positioning and much more. I could solo LE slavers p1 on a monk without shrining, but certainly not on a fighter.

I guess that's one of the reasons why they really aren't a popular class. You can build for damage alright, but so many things can go wrong. Safer and easier to snipe mobs from a distance.

yes, but they survive it which gives you the time to make a decision about what to do to beat the encounter. up until the game scales where its not fun for anyone (reaper 10 maybe?) such builds can be competitive. it becomes a matter of tactics and smartly trading hp with the npcs (not hard against this ai) as opposed to dps builds with avoidance based defenses which just get nuked or not nuked depending on rng.

i would accept the challenge if my character was lvl 30.

which is why playing a fighter well is actually fun.



also, i remembered where i was getting 22 for kta from. dc for dire charge at 122 before +14 from kta = 136 +7 from warriors pendant = 143 total dc, checks out.



so calculating bashes at 1/4 dps... the reasoning behind that is because you are getting 4 attack per second with your mainhand at lvl 30 so you just calculated bash dps in a normal manner and then multiplied by 0.25 because of the relative different in rate of attack? did you use some other logic to arrive at the decision to calculate bash dps at 1/4? this is why i think a practical test would be more convincing.

[Nightmanis]

Reading all of this reminds me of when my main was this build. That was before the kensei revamp though, and it was terrible.

Just as an idea for a weapon, having nightmare with the mabar neg level augment might not be the worst mainhand for top tier content. I know you're using dwarven axes, but it's still an idea.

[BigErkyKid]

[QUOTE=the_one_dwarfforged;6018302]so its an action boost. non fighters can struggle to hit even 10 or so haste boosts. would you really say its superior to take +3 dmg over haste boost?

It isn't. I think we are going in circles :P

All I am saying is that people have a choice. Once all the relevant information is on the table, it is up to the preference of the player.

yes, but they survive it which gives you the time to make a decision about what to do to beat the encounter. up until the game scales where its not fun for anyone (reaper 10 maybe?) such builds can be competitive. it becomes a matter of tactics and smartly trading hp with the npcs (not hard against this ai) as opposed to dps builds with avoidance based defenses which just get nuked or not nuked depending on rng.

i would accept the challenge if my character was lvl 30.

which is why playing a fighter well is actually fun.

It is no doubt fun, but it is also a lot more punishing. The game is focused on grinding, so the safer and more boring option tends to be preferred. I can run slavers faster on a warlock, I can run a racial PL faster on a warlock. The sooner you are done with it, the sooner you "win", whatever that means. It just means that you are ahead in the power laps, meaning you will have more power than the peers who have not chosen to run the easy button.

By the way, it seems like the devs are unto the adrenaline bashes. Or there is something odd going on; shield special attacks now interrupt adrenaline. Other special attacks (shattering strike, good death, etc.) still don't. Either way, I don't care. I am not using the build for the bashes. But if, putting my tinfoil hat on, you are stealth fixing a heads up and some notes would be nice.

so calculating bashes at 1/4 dps... the reasoning behind that is because you are getting 4 attack per second with your mainhand at lvl 30 so you just calculated bash dps in a normal manner and then multiplied by 0.25 because of the relative different in rate of attack? did you use some other logic to arrive at the decision to calculate bash dps at 1/4? this is why i think a practical test would be more convincing.

I don't have a recording software. Yes, that is the reasoning I used, which I think is a lower bound for shield damage. As for practical tests, I did the giant on tracker's trap and brunt, but without video recording it is very annoying to keep track of time (specially when it is a few seconds). I also don't have a gaming mouse so I waste some time clicking. In any case, I think got brunt down with blitz starting on him before one cut was out (I think! bufff).

I don't know, maybe someone bored playing a fighter can give it a shot.

[BigErkyKid]

Reading all of this reminds me of when my main was this build. That was before the kensei revamp though, and it was terrible.

Just as an idea for a weapon, having nightmare with the mabar neg level augment might not be the worst mainhand for top tier content. I know you're using dwarven axes, but it's still an idea.

Yeah, maybe. I wouldn't spec for B-swords just for that though. If you are in the territory where DPS is awful (very high skulls), I think I'd just put on a envenomed blade with the augment for fleshy mobs. No need to spec, similar benefits.

Either way right now gearing is just an afterthought since I bet raven loft will obliterate previous gear.

[Nightmanis]

Yeah, maybe. I wouldn't spec for B-swords just for that though. If you are in the territory where DPS is awful (very high skulls), I think I'd just put on a envenomed blade with the augment for fleshy mobs. No need to spec, similar benefits.

Either way right now gearing is just an afterthought since I bet raven loft will obliterate previous gear.

I can imagine it will. I'm also imagining this build as a human with both proficiencies so i can take the hamp with RR points. That might be the only viable way for me to still use my beloved nightmare and not be a total gimp.

Did you post a feat breakdown anywhere? I figure it's a pretty atypical fighter speccing for tactics, thf, and shields.

[BigErkyKid]

I can imagine it will. I'm also imagining this build as a human with both proficiencies so i can take the hamp with RR points. That might be the only viable way for me to still use my beloved nightmare and not be a total gimp.

Did you post a feat breakdown anywhere? I figure it's a pretty atypical fighter speccing for tactics, thf, and shields.

Dwarf (frees some AP, free axe proficiency)
STR 18 -- CON 18 -- INT 16

Power attack
cleave
great cleave
completionist (pick whatever otherwise)
stunning blow (to trigger follow up)
THF
iTHF
fTHF
IC: slash
shield mastery
i shield mastery
supreme tactics
heavy armor champ
overwhelming critical
improved shield bash
p THF
p TWF
dire charge
arborea
insightful reflexes

Vanguard 41 (capstone) --- Kensei (36) --- Dwarf 3 (+1 CON and HP, I had extra points)

Twists : sense weakness, legendary shield mastery, primal scream, (free - I use more SP, you can get anything)

Current gear, for what is worth:

I am trying to get max DPS while remaining alive. Most of the choices are so that I get some DPS while also gearing for defense.

head: executioner
googles: int+insight INT
neck: warrior focus / swap epic golden guile
trinket: symbol slavers
armor: legendary Tempest plate
bracers: slavers STR, stun
cloak: insight deadly / speed / prr (google insight deadly items)
belt: slavers crafted CON + deception
ring1: prowess (deadly, mP, accuracy)
ring2: insight accuracy, profane, quality deadly
gloves: DBS,hamp, insight STR (mine are messed up and insight DEX)
boots: either blessed travels (no FOM pot or pot on cool down) or the boots from memoirs for some fort bypass and some extra
shields: assorted, demonic slab for DPS

weapons: dwarven axes, assorted

I can't think of a better set up. Personally I am missing slightly better googles (15/7 int), and right gloves. I have a good set up for axes but missing t3 TF and t3 LGS.

At this point I wouldn't recommend anyone farming gear. Get easy to obtain gear at best. Otherwise just TR like everyone else...

[the_one_dwarfforged]

By the way, it seems like the devs are unto the adrenaline bashes. Or there is something odd going on; shield special attacks now interrupt adrenaline. Other special attacks (shattering strike, good death, etc.) still don't. Either way, I don't care. I am not using the build for the bashes. But if, putting my tinfoil hat on, you are stealth fixing a heads up and some notes would be nice.

thats really excellent game design and quality control, kudos to ssg. i mean when you think about it, the conclusion that an unintended adrenaline mechanic is obviously broken on melee but not ranged combat styles is pretty inescapable. definitely two thumbs up on the polished level of workmanship that ssg puts into keeping this game as balanced as it is.

I also don't have a gaming mouse so I waste some time clicking.

you dont need a gaming mouse...clicking buffs...use better keybinds...such cringe...

[BigErkyKid]

thats really excellent game design and quality control, kudos to ssg. i mean when you think about it, the conclusion that an unintended adrenaline mechanic is obviously broken on melee but not ranged combat styles is pretty inescapable. definitely two thumbs up on the polished level of workmanship that ssg puts into keeping this game as balanced as it is.



you dont need a gaming mouse...clicking buffs...use better keybinds...such cringe...

I already have keybinded most stuff, and I used to play the piano so it is not lack of "ability". The problem is that there remains an unavoidable delay between hitting buffs. Ideally you want to hit haste boost + one cut + opportunity attack quasi-simultaneously, and that can only be achieved with a programable mouse. Add to this having to click on a chronometer and you have an impossible task for me. The best way to measure dummy timings is on the kobold boss anyway, so maybe when lama is up I can copy the toon over there.

Either way, I am not 100% it was SSG going after the shield bashes "fix" issue. I am 90% sure though, since I did extensive testing before the maintenance and it worked. I recall that they said they would try to fix adrenaline so that it procced on cleave, would DBs, and so on. But of course we are still waiting for that. Either way it would remain a ranged destiny since IPS + double shot abilities will always dominate.

On the plus side, this would mean that even though they don't reply to anything the devs are still haunting the forums. Must be a good thing, right?

[the_one_dwarfforged]

I already have keybinded most stuff, and I used to play the piano so it is not lack of "ability". The problem is that there remains an unavoidable delay between hitting buffs. Ideally you want to hit haste boost + one cut + opportunity attack quasi-simultaneously, and that can only be achieved with a programable mouse. Add to this having to click on a chronometer and you have an impossible task for me. The best way to measure dummy timings is on the kobold boss anyway, so maybe when lama is up I can copy the toon over there.

you dont have to click on a timer, you can just record it and then look at the time when the first damage is dealt and subtract that from the time when the target dies. theres plenty of free recording software that people will recommend. if you want mine, i recommend bandicam because its the only one that my limited intelligence could figure out how to use more or less well enough.