Purely offensive S&B build

[BigErkyKid]

interesting. i suppose thats decent for boss nuking in quests but i honestly question whether or not thats actually better than blitz over the duration of a whole quest. personally i wouldnt play that way because i wouldnt want to be tied to something that has a limited number of charges even with a very limited regen, mostly because the regen is random. also that seems like it would create a style of gameplay that is like twf but worse. still, interesting.

Obviously it is less damage than blitz over time. It is just the equivalent of fury shooter but only on single target and melee range. It is also obviously a bug, so builds;t around it is a gamble. That said, it might be currently powerful for reaper. Why? Because in good groups melees are not the ones dropping trash, insta killers are. So you want on demand super high DPS to drop a reaper or a DWed champ. And obviously that boss. In that content, the DPS output of exploiting adrenaline bashes is obviously higher than whatever you could do twitching or auto attacking on TWFers. The fact that it is such ridiculous damage (on sneak attack I bet I could get reliably 20K per hit, and uber crits closer to 30k HPs on non helpless) is what is hilarious.

110 isnt a bad dc but iirc doing even 5 skull slave lords and 7 skull storm horns if i had a dc in the 120-130s it would fail sometimes, 140 was no fail. given that i would say kta is pretty important though im not sure why you wouldnt be able to take it even if you spent 41 ap in vg.

Let's put it this way: the DCs are probably as high as those of any fighter taking tactical supremacy and being decently geared. Lower dcs are more a limitation brought by my lack of STR items and poor optimization at the moment, not a feature of the build. You cannot fit KTA because you want the best t5 from kensei: +20MP, +1 range; and then the 5th core for 20MP. So really, you are looking at 33 AP minimum in kensei. 33Kensei+41VG is 74 AP, which does not leave room for KTA.

i feel like between dire charge, stunning blow, stunning shield, trip, and lay waste cc is pretty well covered and 15% dstrike for boss dps would be much more important but thats personal preference so meh.

Here is the thing, it is not 15% dbs advantage. The capstone brings you 5% DBs + 5% attack speed, which is arguably better than 10% DBs. So really, it is <5% DBs difference. For me a bigger draw are the 4 extra action boosts that would allow me to be in power surge reliably even in longer quests. With 12 charges in reaper it might not be enough since you are going to get blasted on a non evasion + bad dodge build. For really, the big problem is not being able to fit in KTA, not the kensei capstone.

it doesnt really matter if vg dps is better than twf while moving 99% of the time because 99% of the time the things that are moving that you need to kill are trash, and even the worst of twfers should be able to kill moving trash in the content that theyre able to run, plus thats a huge advantage of being a fighter in that scenario: you have a lot of reliable cc at your disposal to make trash stop moving. the only scenario where moving dps would be crippling to twf at this point is if you need to chase a boss that your tank cant face tank and has to kite which is only a small percent of the entire game, though admittedly a very important one. if a vg build is 77% of twf single target dps thats nice for the vg build, but i dont think that thf is much different from vg st dps in relation to twf if not perhaps higher (it could be lower, that would be funny) but the important thing is that single target dps because thats the most important stat for a melee dps build. thats the comparison im interested in.

It is 75-80% pre shield bashes, with shield bashes I am getting DPS in the same range even without KTA. That is, I am not being able to rule out the hypothesis that they are actually the same of a pure kensei TWF. Again, weapon effects though favor TWF.

To give you a hint, I am computing shield bashes as 1/4 of a regular attack to account for the 1 second cool down. They have a crit profile 17-18 x3 (x4) 19-20 x6 (x7), which is a bit better than an axe in the main hand. They do not benefit from SA dice though.

My play experience tells me that moving bosses are more a thing than what you seem to suggest here. Caster bosses will ALWAYS reposition, for example. It tends to be melee bosses that stay still more; that is, if you can lock them with a tank. Either way, the moving aspect of TWFer has made me curse many times. If the DPS is currently in the same ballpark, I would tend to say that S&B is ahead. Specially because you can twitch with S&B much like you do its SWF.

i would say 300 hp definitely can move you to the wrong side of a hits-to-kill interval (move you from above two to under two for example) when you have that much prr. based on my personal experience stacking prr and hp is really important and honestly you almost cant go wrong doing it though i would say that once you reach a certain level of prr the hp actually does become better in the current defensive meta. i have not really been that concerned about magical damage because between int based reflexes leading to a decent save and even a lowly 50% reduction from mrr and a stack of hp either i was always going to live through magic damage or i was always going to get nuked by it with no hope of surviving anyway. the more basic underlying reasons im personally less concerned about magic damage is because usually there are visual tells that you can use to manually avoid it and its also a lot less common. being able to survive a misplay against physical damage is more important because of the sheer frequency of incoming physical damage.

other than to say, if something is bad for monks it makes me happy i have no comment about monks.

What is there to say. Ironically, using a shield and going for DPS makes you more squishy. There is no good DPS option for a Vanguard build other than going full kensei and giving up on stalwart. Paladin used to be better due to getting holy sword and zeal for free, but paladins are now so ridiculously behind that I wouldn't even consider it. So this is a glass cannon.

Is it a bad build? By no means. Kudos to Gilga for thinking of this before me. Is it an easy button? Absolutely not. You need to avoid being hit. I went into memoirs and grim barret solo to playtest and you smoke them, but those are not particularly challenging quests. Did a couple of memoirs r5 in a group and felt powerful (freaking grazing hits aside), but again this is not very challenging. I have to say though that the 2 seconds deflect arrows was useful there.

If you want to solo high reapers, or want to solo raids, or want to be able to carry any PUG through any content, this is not your build. But neither is a TWF / THF conventional kensei. I really like though being a dwarf with a shield and an axe. Simpler times, and plenty of active combat for me. Plus it has the added benefit that most people haven't seen one of those in a very long time, so they probably think you are putting out gimpy damage. Surprising people has a sweet taste, yo!

[Gilga1]

33Kensei+41VG is 74 AP, which does not leave room for KTA.

You can get KtA with 6 points: 45 spell points for 30 sec duration.

If you choose adrenaline over blitz Vanguard capstone is better imo (+1W with shield).
In reaper I think FotW could be more effective than LD for this build.

[BigErkyKid]

You can get KtA with 6 points: 45 spell points for 30 sec duration.

If you choose adrenaline over blitz Vanguard capstone is better imo (+1W with shield).
In reaper I think FotW could be more effective than LD for this build.

Good catch! The capstone does indeed buff the shield a fair bit. It is +1W, but the base of the shield is 3d10 so it is a good chunk. Were you aware though that you can get 12 bashes per single adrenaline use?

I agree that given this "feature" probably in high reapers this could be a niche but effective use for shielders. Certainly the highest burst melee DPS in the game. Go figure!

[Gilga1]

Good catch! The capstone does indeed buff the shield a fair bit. It is +1W, but the base of the shield is 3d10 so it is a good chunk. Were you aware though that you can get 12 bashes per single adrenaline use?

No. I never played one, I was locked in LD... XD
Once I saw an adrenaline basher on Ghallanda... a few years ago, I don't remember that player name.

Nowadays, with reaper, blitz is less attractive and your discover seems to me really really interesting

One question: shield special attacks (i.e. Shield smash, Stunning shield, etc.) discharge adrenaline, right?

[BigErkyKid]

No. I never played one, I was locked in LD... XD
Once I saw an adrenaline basher on Ghallanda... a few years ago, I don't remember that player name.

Nowadays, with reaper, blitz is less attractive and your discover seems to me really really interesting

One question: shield special attacks (i.e. Shield smash, Stunning shield, etc.) discharge adrenaline, right?

They don't, at least not some of them, but I will double check I didn't test everything extensively since it was late. So you might be able to add the additional +W to the adrenaline attack. Again, pending of checking. But in general it is not a massive damage difference, I feel, since they have relatively long cool downs and don't add crit multi, just base damage. The big gain is the multi adrenaline procs. Really, 11-12 adrenaline shots in succession with demonic slab is pretty devastating. And you can just keep popping adrenalines "infinitely". If you use the 7 charges, with high attack rate you should be able to recharge fast.

There are a few things still. For example, I want to try now whether the AoE shield attack applies adrenaline to all targets.
And also even if they fix shield bashing counting as attacks for adrenaline, I think you can get multiproc with passive shield bashes and regular attacks. Still pretty powerful, but obviously might not be that impressive.

[BigErkyKid]

So, update:

- Special attacks, such as opportunity attack or shield special attacks can be used when actively blocking without ending adrenaline.
- My previous numbers of 14-24K included helpless (freaking mage cannon); unfortunately it is lower.
- You can get 17 procs per adrenaline pop (17 hits in 15 seconds)
- Using action boost MP you boost the damage of the shield bashes
- One cut does not apply to the shield bashes


Without fully optimizing and no KTA, I was getting ~10k pops with MP action boost on a boss and no vulnerability. 12k with vulnerability, suppose you can push it to 13-14K, this just puts it on par with current melees.

So a bit of a let down. Still has its uses, and for short boosts probably it is best, but clearly it doesn't seem to be beating just auto attack on bosses with a lot of HPs with blitz, where crits will average out. I guess that if you want to drop quickly a reaper this is a nice way to do it.

Alas!

If anyone has ideas on how to boost this higher, please do let me know.

[Gilga1]

So, update:
If anyone has ideas on how to boost this higher, please do let me know.

Focusing on shield bashes, max dps can probably be achieved with warforged: 11 AP in warforged (assuming 10 free from racials), 41 Vanguard, 32 Kensei, 6 KtA.

Breakdown of melee power (260+):
20 One Cut
20 One with the Blade
15 Memories of the Last War Front Lines
20 Opportunity Attack
9 Follow Up
20 Scion of Arborea
30 Epic Power
16 Feats
18 Fury of the Wild
24 Dread Adversary Tree
20 TOEE Set (swap before entering adrenaline bashing mode...)
30 Damage Boost
+ Items & Mythic & Reaper bonus

[BigErkyKid]

Focusing on shield bashes, max dps can probably be achieved with warforged: 11 AP in warforged (assuming 10 free from racials), 41 Vanguard, 32 Kensei, 6 KtA.

Breakdown of melee power (260+):
20 One Cut
20 One with the Blade
15 Memories of the Last War Front Lines
20 Opportunity Attack
9 Follow Up
20 Scion of Arborea
30 Epic Power
16 Feats
18 Fury of the Wild
24 Dread Adversary Tree
20 TOEE Set (swap before entering adrenaline bashing mode...)
30 Damage Boost
+ Items & Mythic & Reaper bonus

I also thought about the TOEE swap. I did not go for follow up +opportunity attack because I was going for first ball park. However, note that you can use follow up with the shield. Shield block, click special attacks, and they hit with the shield instead. By hitting with the shield you don't count as an attack.

You might be able to make it work with high investment. I'd be nice to throw more bodies into the testing :P

How many hit points does the lama boss kobold have?

[Amundir]

Are there any shields with red/orange/purple slots on them? I'm just imagining a shield with like Metoric or the Force gems slotted on it.

[BigErkyKid]

Are there any shields with red/orange/purple slots on them? I'm just imagining a shield with like Metoric or the Force gems slotted on it.

Yeah, but the damage is just not worth it. Augments have been outdated for a very long while.

[Amundir]

You don't think a http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Meteoric_Star_Ruby slotted into a shield doing that Adrenaline thing would be useful?

[BigErkyKid]

You don't think a http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Meteoric_Star_Ruby slotted into a shield doing that Adrenaline thing would be useful?

Quite honestly, nope. I'd really like for augments to be relevant, but in this kind of end game set ups they just aren't

[Gilga1]

Active shield bashes do not count as an attack, meaning you can execute as many as you could possibly while adrenaline is active.

I tested this last night (with a paladin) and while actively blocking and bashing adrenaline discharges after the first bash...
Maybe it's working for fighter only? Or you need some investment in the vanguard tree?

[BigErkyKid]

I tested this last night (with a paladin) and while actively blocking and bashing adrenaline discharges after the first bash...
Maybe it's working for fighter only? Or you need some investment in the vanguard tree?

I have checked it many times, I am quite sure it works.

Did you take the capstone? To be clear, hold down block and without releasing click attacks.

I am sure we can find what makes it work. Although I suspect it will be changed pretty quickly.

[Gilga1]

Did you take the capstone?

No, I didn't spend points in vanguard tree.

To be clear, hold down block and without releasing click attacks.

Yep, I did this

Maybe the feat Improved Shield Bash is needed...

[BigErkyKid]

No, I didn't spend points in vanguard tree.



Yep, I did this

Maybe the feat Improved Shield Bash is needed...

I have improved shield bash, yes. I know it is probably suboptimal but wanted to try it.

I have 41 in VG, rest between racial and kensei. VG I take to capstone.

By the way, it seems like the capstone is giving 50% stun chance, not 5%. Sev said it was "working fine" so I really hope they don't nerf it.

My guess is that it might be capstone related.

[Gilga1]

My guess is that it might be capstone related.

Can you please check it out?

[BigErkyKid]

Can you please check it out?

I will check whether it is related to the VG tree. Please check the same on that paladin.

[BigErkyKid]

I will check whether it is related to the VG tree. Please check the same on that paladin.

It is not the vanguard tree. I reset it to 0 points and it still worked. Now it could be either fighter or improved shield bash.

[Gilga1]

It is not the vanguard tree. I reset it to 0 points and it still worked. Now it could be either fighter or improved shield bash.

Thanks, I will try to test improved shield bash on pally....