Why play a melee character at all?

[BigErkyKid]

It's about 30% difference.

I know the thread you are referencing. To start with, a shuriken build is more than 30% more effective than a melee build in DPS tests. So it doesn't correct for it.

Not to mention the anything that favors ROF is better on a shuriken build, and ignoring every element of defense that favors ranged.

[Tat2Freak]

so if you have some tips of what i am doing wrong, or what builds i am missing, please do share.

np

maybe i am not building my melee toons properly. But spreadsheets, and actual lama tests, point out that ranged dps is not far behind, if at all, and with plenty of advantages.

[Odysseus2011]

I know the thread you are referencing. To start with, a shuriken build is more than 30% more effective than a melee build in DPS tests. So it doesn't correct for it.

Not to mention the anything that favors ROF is better on a shuriken build, and ignoring every element of defense that favors ranged.

Are all those "DPS Comparisons" before or after Slaying Arrow/Imbues/20% DS was fixed in the Arcane Archer tree?

[BigErkyKid]

Are all those "DPS Comparisons" before or after Slaying Arrow/Imbues/20% DS was fixed in the Arcane Archer tree?

The build doesn't use imbues, but it does use slaying arrow. However, we haven't had time to check lama comparisons of t5 DWS.

Those builds are so powerful that they can afford to lose 10-30% DPS and still come ahead.

Not to mention that against anything not DWed, probably rate of attack based drains are the most effective tool.

But let's get this straight, are you saying that you believe that melee builds pull significantly ahead ranged builds in DPS in high skull reapers?

[Odysseus2011]

But let's get this straight, are you saying that you believe that melee builds pull significantly ahead ranged builds in DPS in high skull reapers?

I'm saying you're taking an outdated build, testing the dps outside of reaper, and now you're complaining that this build is OP in reaper.

[BigErkyKid]

I'm saying you're taking an outdated build, testing the dps outside of reaper, and now you're complaining that this build is OP in reaper.

Nah, I am taking the last round of lama tests, on a build that has now changed.

But you aren't really saying anything, so it is hard to keep the conversation.

Do you honestly believe that melee characters are more DPS in reaper than ranged characters?

[Odysseus2011]

Do you honestly believe that melee characters are more DPS in reaper than ranged characters?

Seeing as you have not compared the two in reaper, why should I? And I'm not sure that this was the intent of your opening post, you say it's pointless to play melees in reaper, I disagree.

[Whitehairguy]

I've partied with tons of melees who would rather stay still and do nothing than twisting Meld Into Darkness and be useful, while losing their DPS (most likely) twist. Sad reality.

It makes threads like this amusing.

[BigErkyKid]

Seeing as you have not compared the two in reaper, why should I? And I'm not sure that this was the intent of your opening post, you say it's pointless to play melees in reaper, I disagree.

Reaper is a straight up proportional debuff to the DPS. One does not need to test stuff in reaper to know what is their pecking order.

Get DPS outside of reaper, apply corresponding debuff, and voila.

Agree to disagree then, but the contribution would have been better if you had actually pointed out why you disagree.

[Odysseus2011]

The build doesn't use imbues, but it does use slaying arrow. However, we haven't had time to check lama comparisons of t5 DWS.

Go test the DWS version and then come back, don't come here however and complain about a build that is now dysfunctional. Loosing Slaying Arrow and 20% Doubleshot are not non-significant changes to a build.

Also I'm not sure what build you were referencing when you said that it doesn't use imbues.

[Marshal_Lannes]

In heroics, which is what you are doing there, DPS of the fighter is completely dominated by ranged vorpal finish, and other shenanigans.

That simply isn't true. In fact I am doing so much DPS Warlocks and Ranged think I am vorpaling mobs and I tell them, nope, that's how hard I hit. Mobs literally melt away. You should try it sometime.

[Marshal_Lannes]

This thread can be summed up like this - a bad ranged player is more effective than a bad melee player, but at the end of the day they are still a bad player. However, if you are a bad player and really don't have any aspirations to get better while still being able to run Reaper, choose a ranged build because it is more forgiving and you won't be a soul stone quite so often.

[SirValentine]

So... wrong wrong wrong, wrong wrong and some more wrong.

Wow. You ask a question, where the answer is largely a matter of opinion, and when someone tells you theirs, you declare them "wrong".

If he plays a melee because it's fun for him, no, that is not a wrong answer. It's an exact correct answer the question you asked.

Maybe you should rethink your question instead of telling people who are having fun that they are wrong to do so.

[slarden]

So... wrong wrong wrong, wrong wrong and some more wrong.

The best things about these threads is the intellectual depth of the differing viewpoints. It makes my brain hurt.

[BigErkyKid]

The best things about these threads is the intellectual depth of the differing viewpoints. It makes my brain hurt.

I agree. If you cannot figure out why throwing around "but fun" is not a valid point in a balancing discussion, I am afraid that I can't help you.

[Jasparion]

This thread can be summed up like this - a bad ranged player is more effective than a bad melee player, but at the end of the day they are still a bad player. However, if you are a bad player and really don't have any aspirations to get better while still being able to run Reaper, choose a ranged build because it is more forgiving and you won't be a soul stone quite so often.

The quicker explanation would be:

Melee need someone else with great CC to do well in high end Reaper.

Do Ranged and Casters need someone else with great CC to do well in high end Reaper?

[BigErkyKid]

The quicker explanation would be:

Melee need someone else with great CC to do well in high end Reaper.

Do Ranged and Casters need someone else with great CC to do well in high end Reaper?

For me it is like this:

Can you think of a situation where you would rather bring a ranged DPS over a melee one?

I can think of many. From perching strategies to bosses with cleave like attacks.

And can you think of an scenario, in the current game, where it would be significantly better to bring a melee character over a ranged one?

I cannot think of a single one. Maybe someone else can?

If the answer to both questions favors ranged, then this means that ranged DPS is strictly better in reaper. And while some people can use melee characters in some reaper content, it does not mean that there isn't a gross imbalance.

[Marshal_Lannes]

The quicker explanation would be:

Melee need someone else with great CC to do well in high end Reaper.

Do Ranged and Casters need someone else with great CC to do well in high end Reaper?

Who said anything about high end Reaper? Why are we moving the goal posts now? The state made by the OP was...Currently the game as played by most is the racial TR + reaper XP hamster wheel. . I don't know anyone who plays the Reaper/TR wheel on high end Reaper. I'm not saying there isn't someone who does, but its a very, very small minority. Most people are running these quests on R1-4 therefore it is irrelevant what happens in high end Reaper. So no, I'll stick to my explanation of this thread. If you want to talk tactics for high end Reaper that's another topic.

[Carpone]

[Marshal_Lannes]

And can you think of an scenario, in the current game, where it would be significantly better to bring a melee character over a ranged one?

I cannot think of a single one. Maybe someone else can?

If the answer to both questions favors ranged, then this means that ranged DPS is strictly better in reaper. And while some people can use melee characters in some reaper content, it does not mean that there isn't a gross imbalance.

Sure, I'll give you one. But remember, now that I'm answering your question you can't just ignore the answer and keep moving alone. Currently I am duoing R2 with guild mate. He is a Warlock/Arty I am a paralyzing Cleric/Ranger. I paralyze everything, he kills everything. A perfect addition to our group would be a melee with cleave chain who could wade into the midst of those para mobs and clear them out. This would speed up our completion times and be a big increase to our group DPS. There is no ranged/caster build that would do this as well as a high DPS melee. This is just one example, like you asked for, there are of course many others.