Game Niches

[Wonedream]

One niche I completely forgot about is speed running. It's much more prevalent in other games (and there are healthy speed running communities out there), but DDO has a few people who apply speed running tactics to DDO. Some of the posts in the achievements section is about "fastest completion" of specific quests and specific difficulties.

While I don't think SSG needs to do much to facilitate the speed running niche, there have been a few suggestions of late in other threads that would contribute to those interested in speed running as well as the general populace, such as those quests with timed waves and no option to call in the next wave early (Devil's Assault for example, has no method of calling the next wave if you killed the previous one quickly, while Waking the Beast/Breaking the Ranks does have a mechanic to call the next wave, along with an optional xp boost for doing so).

Is there a good example of this and what it looks like?

[TacoBob33]

There is a pretty rich history of games that tried to fill too many niches at once and failed. You should spend some time researching those games. Hellgate London is a good start.

[Wonedream]

Ill go ahead and refine this thread later a bit.

[Wonedream]

There is a pretty rich history of games that tried to fill too many niches at once and failed. You should spend some time researching those games. Hellgate London is a good start.

Thanks, Ill look into this. I agree, it is good to look at failure and learn from it.

[slarden]

People's preferences are so nuanced and individualized that these type of categorizations almost never work.

I haven't played enough MMOs to really appreciate all the differences out there.

I have been playing Guild Wars 2 recently and it seems more geared to older and casual gamers that are interested in the social aspect of MMORPG. From what I can tell there isn't much way to distinguish yourself from other players in terms of power either by grinding or paying. You can accelerate some progress with money/time but not get more powerful. That is the biggest difference between DDO and GW2 that I saw. In general I hear much less complaining about the state and direction of the game compared to DDO in-game.

Neverwinter (and from what I hear other games by that studio) seems to feed off the symbiotic relationship between people with time>money and people with money>time. The currency system facilitates this well and the exchange systems also acts as an early warning system for exploits much like the DDO ASAH, but SSG isn't on top of ASAH shenanigans and likely never will be. On Sarlona AS prices were crazy for about 6 weeks before the devs knew what many experienced players on Sarlona knew.

DDOs niches seems to be more of a "time served" model. You put in time to earn benefits and those benefits are rather powerful in comparison and aren't particularly hard to achieve, it just takes time.

At one time DDO's niche was for people that liked to solo much of the time, but joined parties for raids and certain quests. The champion system put a dent in that because PRR was over-weighted so build diversity was cut down for soloers. With power creep champions became less of an issue for the soloers that stayed over time and then reaper came along and put a dent in build diversity for soloers due to the self-healing nerf. For those running below reaper it's no issue, but since DDO appeals to achievement types the reaper tree makes many people want to run reaper even solo players because when they do raid, they don't want to be at a disadvantage.

When I first started playing there was also a niche in DDO for the casual social gamer. Easy raiding was common - shroud, TOD, eChronoscope (a bit harder for some but still easy) - I would see many first lifers that had no interest in TRing. Quick festival farming was fun and yielded powerful items. There was a lot for that group to do.

Other than a few roles like CC and tanking people could contribute well without a big grind as long as they could break DR they helped even with sub-par DPS. Many of those people are long gone or they changed their focus from a group of alts for raiding (due to timer restrictions) to one or two super characters.

The biggest issue with DDO has been too many knee-jerk reactions and over-corrections. Too much listening to the squeaky wheel while not trying to understand why the people that aren't complaining are happy and having fun. Some of the things that hurt the game most were created with the best of intentions. Some of those things I even like quite a bit.

So the only consistent niche for DDO over the years has been putting in a lot of time to earn permanent benefits making you more powerful.

[Wonedream]

Checked out Hellgate London. It didn't go down for trying to fill too many niches, as far as I can see. Wiki explained its history and its recent come back. It looks like a pretty cool game, who knows?

As to it filling niches, I see some that it could cover, and it has potential to cover more, and if Tokyo whatever does start updating it, it might pin down the idea and build its base. I would have to do more research on it then I am willing to in order to get a better idea of where it is going, what it is like, etc.

It would take too much time away from here :P

Just my impression at a glance.

Now as to the niches, I know, that word is driving some people nuts, but I am not making it up, there are actually books and courses dedicated to studying... niches...

Apparently I have a fan club of mature intellectuals contributing digressive ideas, I can't remember who they are, but if they said something I felt added to this discussion, Im sure I would try my best to respond.


Im gonna do a little pre sorting on the OP and try to break them down into a major minor tree.

[Wonedream]

People's preferences are so nuanced and individualized that these type of categorizations almost never work.

I haven't played enough MMOs to really appreciate all the differences out there.

I have been playing Guild Wars 2 recently and it seems more geared to older and casual gamers that are interested in the social aspect of MMORPG. From what I can tell there isn't much way to distinguish yourself from other players in terms of power either by grinding or paying. You can accelerate some progress with money/time but not get more powerful. That is the biggest difference between DDO and GW2 that I saw. In general I hear much less complaining about the state and direction of the game compared to DDO in-game.

Neverwinter (and from what I hear other games by that studio) seems to feed off the symbiotic relationship between people with time>money and people with money>time. The currency system facilitates this well and the exchange systems also acts as an early warning system for exploits much like the DDO ASAH, but SSG isn't on top of ASAH shenanigans and likely never will be. On Sarlona AS prices were crazy for about 6 weeks before the devs knew what many experienced players on Sarlona knew.

DDOs niches seems to be more of a "time served" model. You put in time to earn benefits and those benefits are rather powerful in comparison and aren't particularly hard to achieve, it just takes time.

At one time DDO's niche was for people that liked to solo much of the time, but joined parties for raids and certain quests. The champion system put a dent in that because PRR was over-weighted so build diversity was cut down for soloers. With power creep champions became less of an issue for the soloers that stayed over time and then reaper came along and put a dent in build diversity for soloers due to the self-healing nerf. For those running below reaper it's no issue, but since DDO appeals to achievement types the reaper tree makes many people want to run reaper even solo players because when they do raid, they don't want to be at a disadvantage.

When I first started playing there was also a niche in DDO for the casual social gamer. Easy raiding was common - shroud, TOD, eChronoscope (a bit harder for some but still easy) - I would see many first lifers that had no interest in TRing. Quick festival farming was fun and yielded powerful items. There was a lot for that group to do.

Other than a few roles like CC and tanking people could contribute well without a big grind as long as they could break DR they helped even with sub-par DPS. Many of those people are long gone or they changed their focus from a group of alts for raiding (due to timer restrictions) to one or two super characters.

The biggest issue with DDO has been too many knee-jerk reactions and over-corrections. Too much listening to the squeaky wheel while not trying to understand why the people that aren't complaining are happy and having fun. Some of the things that hurt the game most were created with the best of intentions. Some of those things I even like quite a bit.

So the only consistent niche for DDO over the years has been putting in a lot of time to earn permanent benefits making you more powerful.

Great reply, thank you.

It helps a lot to generate a better understanding of game niches, and where DDO fits into and within the niche market.

From your writing I gather

That the Grind Niche is the one niche consistent to DDO. This grind niche takes the form currently of TRing, so right now it is a TR Grind niche.


You also brought up something to be aware of when analyzing these niches. Conflicting niches.

Solo niche in game vs group niche in game.

Gear the game one way or the other and one group or another gets frustrated, as their niche gets disturbed.

So, Ill have to make a note of where niches conflict and how, as well as how to fit them together in a way they won't interfere with each other. Being able to fit inverted niches together is not impossible, it just needs the right method.

Casual Social Niche


DDO can stay with this Niche and should stay with this niche, but if it can merge it with its opposite at the same time without them interfering with each other it will see its budget grow rapidly.

Grind Niche vs Gratify Niche

The Grind Niche we all know and understand very well. And we generally scoff at the opposite, but because I am curious, I will look more carefully at the opposite, its mechanism. Gratify Niche is the niche where you get easy power, it doesn't take too long. This is the anti-thesis of DDO! How does a game make this into a niche? It would more like cater to customization, effects, atmosphere, challenge, side things to do, and other aspects to compensate, or make it the very goal of the game to arm the players to a point of power where they are enjoying the experience, to help hook them in, and then give very little power from there over a grind to keep them, but relying on other enjoyable aspects as well. In particular, things like customization make a huge difference, and a game like this can be massive fun, this model has been used successfully in other games. The games have to offer something if its not grind based, and this is a big niche, the gratify niche.

For DDO to totally repel the gratify niche will inevitably constrain DDO's budget in time. This means slower updates, etc etc.


But it looks like if you add the gratify niche, it will completely destroy the grind niche, which is part of DDO's identity established by its players, and if this is prominent, that identity is also what is driving off new players so very effectively!!!



DDO has a choice. Embrace niche mastery or go down with its niche...


Its reputation as a Grind Game that requires massive grind is intimidating as fudge to people not playing DDO.

Grinders like that, and have a hard time understanding that Grind niche is not everything.

If DDO can establish itself as a game that has people hearing of their niche, they will come check it out.

There are various ways to bring these together, maintaining the Grind and adding the Gratify. Gratify is getting powered up fast. We can call this just going to level 30 in the game as is, in today's gaming pace, that is fast Id say. So DDO already has to some extent a Gratify mechanism, but it isn't working well, so it needs to adjust. The grind to becoming a fully developed character right now involved 135 lives.

If that grind can be maintained at level 30 instead of 135 TRs, it falls somewhere in the middle of Gratify and Grind, because you quickly power up to level 30, but that little bit of power left to get still takes a grind. So gratify niche goes, hey, I am powerful fast! Yay! Oh, that grind is huge, but I can stay powerful (gratified) and get it whenever over time. Hurray!

When they TR, this de-Gratifies, thus destroying the Gratify niche, which then finds itself trapped with no way to get more powerful but to experience a the very opposite of what they want, to be powerful (gratification).

Grind group seems to HATE gratification as an idea that may help the game, but Gratification is one of the primary mechanisms of the Endgame niche, to get them powerful fast then grind them for that last bit, while keeping them powered up and feeling power gratified.

Ill take as much time as needed to really grasp and understand this. And I am really enjoying this thread, as I am using it to carve out a better picture and can see where it is going. I look forward to refining the OP many times until it is a useful, clear, and concise structure of thought and observation.

[Lycurgus]

Why would making DDO more like WoW draw attract players? There are already so many games that cater to those players with an overblown sense of entitlement. Dumb DDO down and it just becomes a poor man's version of every other piece of s@#t MMO that hands out trophies just for logging in.

[TacoBob33]

why do you keep misinforming people that they need to grind out all the past lives for a complete toon? melee aren't going to need caster past lives, casters aren't going to need melee past lives, and ranged aren't going to need either. The epic past lives only offer a little more survivability outside of the active abilities, and aren't worth collecting en mass.

[Wonedream]

why do you keep misinforming people that they need to grind out all the past lives for a complete toon? melee aren't going to need caster past lives, casters aren't going to need melee past lives, and ranged aren't going to need either. The epic past lives only offer a little more survivability outside of the active abilities, and aren't worth collecting en mass.

Then it shouldn't be such a deal should it? TRing is trivial, unless you try to change it, then its profound!

This is a bit confusing?


Ill add, you are saying we only need the supporting PLs to be complete. No, while we do not need all PLs to make a build awesome, or possibly even optimal, we do need all PLs so the word complete means what it means... COMPLETE.

A Complete toon has all PLs. If a single PL is missing, there is something left to do, it is not complete. How will that something left to do get done... TRing because it is the only way...

There is two references at play here, and I think that is part of the confusion. There is the complete toon that has completionalist feat, but does not qualify for the complete toon that has maxed out.

Maxed out complete is really complete, having everything that can be offered.

Completionalist complete is incomplete, because there are still PLs missing it can obtain.

[TacoBob33]

Because it's fine the way it is. The grind is for people who like the grind and negating that grind invalidates them. If you don't like to grind there is an endgame to play you just need to find people who want to play it with you if it's such an issue.

[Wonedream]

Because it's fine the way it is. The grind is for people who like the grind and negating that grind invalidates them. If you don't like to grind there is an endgame to play you just need to find people who want to play it with you if it's such an issue.

Ok, thank you for your opinion.

I am going to maintain the focus of this thread, which is game niches. Lets talk about this aspect in one of the threads that is actually focused on exactly what you are talking about and not on game niches themselves.

This thread is not about the grind niche, it is about all niches. Just letting you know

[TacoBob33]

The ask for it to be moved to off topic chat.

[vryxnr]

Is there a good example of this and what it looks like?

In DDO? Just browsing the first few pages of the Achievements subsection in these forums gave me the following speed run achievement posts (someone more involved will have links to currect best times/world records I'm sure):

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-HOX-Speed-Run!!!
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...Speed-run-7-50
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...Speed-run-5-10
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...Artificer-7-09
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...H-shroud-57-50
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ders-of-Khyber
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...Speed-run-6-35
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ders-of-Khyber
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-thunder-peaks
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...6-50-fire-raid
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...hom-the-Depths
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...Captain-s-Crew
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...th-some-lasers
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...fire-raid-8-20
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ompletion-Solo
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...s-New-Invasion

In DDO, you could see this as a niche inside a niche. Outside of DDO, Speed Running tends to be more about finishing the entire game quickly, with multiple categories, such as 100% runs, any% runs, glitchless runs, TAS (tool assisted speed), etc.

For examples of those, I highly recommend looking up AGDQ and SGDQ (amazing games gone quick and summer games done quick, respectively). Those are events that fund raise for charity/cancer research and the like while featuring top players doing various games insanely fast (take a game that averages 80+ hours and beat in in under 6, or some games that the average player may spend days working on and in these events do them in 30 minutes and less, some as quick as sub 5 minutes, like the WR for the original Mario game). The game Mario Maker has some prominent members of that community as well, including many streamers and youtubers like GrandPooBear, CarlSagan42, Ryukahr, Trihex, DoDeChehedron, Darbian, and so many more. Carl recently headed up a project within Mario Maker to make a focused speedrunning game out of a series of custom-made levels, and they are planning on doing bi-weekly (every two weeks) races to see who can get the best times and to see who decides to use which strats and take which paths through these levels/this game, etc. In other similar games like Dram World 2 (fairly recently released) Granpoobear currently holds the 100% world record for speed clearing it while Ryu has the any% world record for speed, though their times are sure to get beat, especially with the TAS records starting to come in. Their runs are often steamed, but can often also be found on youtube.

Now, this is - imo - hardly something that DDO could/should really focus on, but the simple fact that DDO includes completion times for quests means that there are (as seen in those links above) a niche community within DDO who enjoy the potential speedrunning aspects within DDO.

[Wonedream]

The ask for it to be moved to off topic chat.

The primary game of concern is DDO and the focus is understanding its niche market from the past, to the present, and what the future might be.

Other players have noted this game encompassed various other niches quite well prior to various updates that invalidated those niches. Niches would held a substantial percentage of player base.

This game already covers more then one niche when you think about it, and it wouldn't take much to expand its range even further.

TRing is just one niche, it is not the defining feature of this game which so many players keep reiterating when they state you can make a 1st life rock.

It is a good niche, and should be preserved, but it should not be defining.

PnP was more universal, and Dungeons and Dragons online aims to be a dungeons and dragons experience ONLINE!


There are many thing still missing they will have to eventually consider, aspects of the core game that players absolutely love or would love see added to the game.

What can you do in Paper and Pen, why does it fill so many niches to make it so popular?

A game that is suppose to free your imagination so you can do all sorts of things and go many different ways has been in some ways squeezed into a narrow path by appearances to some, possibly more then enough.


So the purpose of this thread is to see how many niches there are, understand them, and which ones would fit the easiest into DDO and which ones are most complimentary.

If you are wondering about what they look like, check out the OP. I need to go arrange them better now.

[Wonedream]

In DDO? Just browsing the first few pages of the Achievements subsection in these forums gave me the following speed run achievement posts (someone more involved will have links to currect best times/world records I'm sure):

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-HOX-Speed-Run!!!
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...Speed-run-7-50
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...Speed-run-5-10
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...Artificer-7-09
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...H-shroud-57-50
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ders-of-Khyber
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...Speed-run-6-35
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ders-of-Khyber
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-thunder-peaks
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...6-50-fire-raid
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...hom-the-Depths
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...Captain-s-Crew
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...th-some-lasers
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...fire-raid-8-20
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ompletion-Solo
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...s-New-Invasion

In DDO, you could see this as a niche inside a niche. Outside of DDO, Speed Running tends to be more about finishing the entire game quickly, with multiple categories, such as 100% runs, any% runs, glitchless runs, TAS (tool assisted speed), etc.

For examples of those, I highly recommend looking up AGDQ and SGDQ (amazing games gone quick and summer games done quick, respectively). Those are events that fund raise for charity/cancer research and the like while featuring top players doing various games insanely fast (take a game that averages 80+ hours and beat in in under 6, or some games that the average player may spend days working on and in these events do them in 30 minutes and less, some as quick as sub 5 minutes, like the WR for the original Mario game). The game Mario Maker has some prominent members of that community as well, including many streamers and youtubers like GrandPooBear, CarlSagan42, Ryukahr, Trihex, DoDeChehedron, Darbian, and so many more. Carl recently headed up a project within Mario Maker to make a focused speedrunning game out of a series of custom-made levels, and they are planning on doing bi-weekly (every two weeks) races to see who can get the best times and to see who decides to use which strats and take which paths through these levels/this game, etc. In other similar games like Dram World 2 (fairly recently released) Granpoobear currently holds the 100% world record for speed clearing it while Ryu has the any% world record for speed, though their times are sure to get beat, especially with the TAS records starting to come in. Their runs are often steamed, but can often also be found on youtube.

Now, this is - imo - hardly something that DDO could/should really focus on, but the simple fact that DDO includes completion times for quests means that there are (as seen in those links above) a niche community within DDO who enjoy the potential speedrunning aspects within DDO.

Ok, I see it now.

A possible way to make this niche more defined is to give speed awards for fast completion. Maybe a smaller bonus if it is under a time that puts pressure on performance against monsters (making you fight them faster harder to beat the clock... ouch... fun... but.. so rugged...) and a special bonus if you get incredible finish time. Maybe have your name pop up or something, not sure. There are many ways to turn speed running dungeons into an incentive, thereby expanding this niche right away, and you are right, it is clearly here and could shine, and provide a amp example of niche complimenting and enhancing the game. It would take some work to polish up, and look at carefully, but I would definitely have fun seeing how fast I can finish various quests, and if there was an incentive that pressured me to push myself into danger faster, I'd probably end up doing it.

If they turned all quests like this though, it would alter the entire environment and gear it more into a speed run type game. It wouldn't be mandatory, just ignore the clock, but it would change the atmosphere by enticing players to go faster. It would be a personal option like bravery bonus, and this puts the player on queue against the clock or going at party speed, which would probably be slower. Or if he is soloing... a perfect place to enjoy his game and now add speed running and track times to the fun. Maybe a guild board with fastest results, or a weekly board for certain quests? All sorts of ways this can be done really.

Ill give it more thought and add speed running niche to the list!

[Saekee]

Stealth,
Minimal kill,
Pacifist.

There is maybe one or two quests that support this play-style, 3 classes with at least one PRE dedicated to it, and they re the most fun i managed to have. Most of the game mechanics are in place to support it, close to playable with a moderate tweak.

Only needs more instances taking it into consideration.

The only down is that the play style is difficult to coordinate in multiplayer.

As said above, Stealth is a niche community within DDO; see my ROGUE workbook sig. And janave--please check it out & comment!

[whoolsey]

DDO already spent a few years modifying things to try and appeal to a wider audience; sometimes doing so at the expense of things which had helped attract and build it's existing playerbase. The net result was a failure to capture enough new players to offset the player losses generated by those changes. Encouraging more of the same is not going to do the game any favors.

+1

A few of the things that initially drew me personally to DDO were the following (some of these - imo sadly - no longer apply)

• It's based on D&D
• It's in Eberron (was getting sick of FR and Eberron felt more like GH with a bit of a techie twist)
• Relatively free character customization options in the D&D style, including the freedom to make thematic characters
• Dynamic combat
• 3d world
• Free to play with the option to pay or earn points via in game playing
• Rogues actually mattered! (traps used to be much deadlier)
• Humorous quirks (DDO Kobolds, Broccoli vs Beholders, Tasty Ham!)
• Graphics were good/enjoyable without being hyper realistic, which IMO works well for D&D and avoids the "uncanny valley"
• Environment/Terrain mattered in combat (enemies used to not be able to walk into you, so choke points were a thing. Using terrain to your advantage is still a thing, but to a lesser extent than it used to be imo)
• Solo play was always an option but group play was encouraged more (while this ties into the Rogues actually mattered point, this deserves an extra mention due to the ad campaigns that exists back in the day). Doing something solo was a challenge and an accomplishment, worthy of praise, not the norm.

The gradual changes made to try to appeal to a larger audience removed several of these features. DDO is still D&D, but the D&D elements it was based on have been greatly diluted with new DDO unique mechanics and generic MMO style changes. Eberron content barely gets any love anymore, so instead of exploring a new world few people have prior knowledge of, they are creating 'new' content from worlds that most people already know very well. Yeah, I'm looking forwards to what they do with Ravenloft, but I'm also sad that Eberron is being forgotten (I felt the same way when they brought FR into the mix. I enjoy it, but I wish we could explore more of the unknowns of Eberron as well). Solo friendly games are generally more popular than group reliant co-op games, so there was a shift to make DDO more solo friendly. Rogues became a joke, and everyone could heal. Classes - while still unique and offering their own contributions - became less relevant overall. Don't get me wrong, it was NOT perfect back then, but neither is it perfect now. Some people loved the changes, others hated them. Recently, the pendulum has swung a bit in the other direction with Reaper being in part (not wholly, but only in part) to incentivize grouping once again, but most of the group happy people already left due to the "dumbing down" of things to make it all solo friendly. Some of them have returned to check out reaper. Some were happy, others not and left again.

These are only a few small examples. All of them however were attempt to make the game appeal to a larger audience/include more gaming niches into the DDO umbrella. Some of them made the game (subjectively) better, others made it (subjectively) worse.

I agree on many points, however i did applaud some of the changes, as someone who plays outside of the US time-zones i hated having to wait for a healer or trapper that more often then not simply didn't show.
I do however miss the better writing, Eberron setting, 3D quest (instead of a flat plane). since reaper came, i see less people online then i used to.

Is there a good example of this and what it looks like?

some examples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtI5HM7GVGY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYUoSx4fMQo
really, google is your best friend

wonedream, i get what your trying to do, you're lobbying.
The terribly biased poll, the multiple treads on a possible endgame incentives, i get it, but you're doing it the wrong way. attracting the attention of the dev's will backfire, it always does.
the game is too easy?-->effect> the game became unplayable for years on a melee (this repeated itself with reaper mode)
The game should look more like a standard (wow clon)mmo? boring bags of hp and flat quests with poor writing.

another problem is how you treat your audience, ddo's population in general a little smarter, people will see through the motivation.

[Wonedream]

"DDO already spent a few years modifying things to try and appeal to a wider audience; sometimes doing so at the expense of things which had helped attract and build it's existing playerbase. The net result was a failure to capture enough new players to offset the player losses generated by those changes. Encouraging more of the same is not going to do the game any favors."
-Pernadeath

If you are talking about MoTu or Reaper, I find these both to be great adds, they did alter the niche base, and game saw some hits, but in the long rung they will pay off, because overall they give more to do and just need some balancing. The reason they made problems the first time was that they where not smoothly implemented. If they add gear that invalidates a lot of work, they need to go back and make sure those weapons stayed valid... but they didn't.

Perhaps offering DDO in some of its various pre updated states would fill a few niches that where really appealing. The new updates with level 30 cap and reaper are great fun, but still haven't been balanced into the game, but have added to the imbalance of the TR grind greatly.

+1



I agree on many points, however i did applaud some of the changes, as someone who plays outside of the US time-zones i hated having to wait for a healer or trapper that more often then not simply didn't show.
I do however miss the better writing, Eberron setting, 3D quest (instead of a flat plane). since reaper came, i see less people online then i used to.


some examples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtI5HM7GVGY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYUoSx4fMQo
really, google is your best friend

wonedream, i get what your trying to do, you're lobbying.
The terribly biased poll, the multiple treads on a possible endgame incentives, i get it, but you're doing it the wrong way. attracting the attention of the dev's will backfire, it always does.
the game is too easy?-->effect> the game became unplayable for years on a melee (this repeated itself with reaper mode)
The game should look more like a standard (wow clon)mmo? boring bags of hp and flat quests with poor writing.

another problem is how you treat your audience, ddo's population in general a little smarter, people will see through the motivation.

I made 2 polls, and both got voted in. They reveal a percentage of where the current active player base is at. Calling them biased will not change the fact that people voted and stood behind the words they chose to cast vote to.

Multiple threads,, yes, it is a forum and there is no law against making multiple threads. They are not all about the same thing. Procedural generated dungeons has nothing to do with PLs.

I am not trying to hide my position in the slightest. I do not respect people who are shadowy and manipulative. I prefer open communication and that is what I am doing.

I do not find my approach to discussing the pitfall of PLs wrong. The entire TR thing is based on a mistake and someone asking to reroll their build. That mistake has been nurtured and fed until it has turned into this ugly boring game process that was never has anything to do with the original intent of this game. Having it has an option is good. Having it has the only option is absolutely frustrating, boring, and setting my game experience back a huge huge HUGE amount!

I am not worried about the difficulty of this game. They got that pinned quite well I think. I am concerned with seeing more content for capped level 30 to do.

As to this game becoming like a standard, that should not be the aim, but to make this game like the paper and pen should be. Paper and Pen had nothing to do with TRs. I can let PRR slide, it doesn't bother me, but TRs are dreadful to me and those like me, and WE don't want them! WE REJECT THEM and do them reluctantly.

Epic does not feel like other MMORPGs where it is just bags of hps, it feels like much like playing an epic build in dungeons and dragons, though the proportions of hps have been changed a lot, I am not bothered by this as long as they don't add so many hps we end up standing there for 5 minutes each fight... right now a lot of monsters can be quickly killed if you know how to do it, while some will take a bit longer.

People complained that the 2 new quests Newcomers and Black and Blue felt like bags of hps... yeah if you don't have good dps they will. I soloed reaper on both and did fine, killing all the mobs in a few seconds and then getting to the boss. Off course my toon was built for doing that, and not all builds do the same thing.

TRs do NOT make this game unique. Its quests, its character building, and its connection to being a Dungeons and Dragons experience makes it unique.

If I want to run the heroics 150 times, I would make 150 Alts all different then each other and do it that way. Then I would KEEP my alts and have plenty to do in endgame. But right now Alts are total invalids from the perspective of a typical gamer that wants access to greater power without going backwards 150 times to get it.

TRing for PLs is not appealing to the typical gamer.

I would say take one more hit to open up the niche market for these types of players before advertising to get them here. They should make sure when they launch an advertising campaign, this is out of the way so TYPICAL gamers are not seeing this thing called 150ish TRs and then leaving.

I am glad you understand what I am doing, and that I am perfectly clear.

[TacoBob33]

I don't think you get what a niche game is. DDO was built to appeal to a small audience rather than trying to take on bigger MMOs directly. Defining game niches is impossible because they are as diverse as the crowd that plays it. A niche game however is not specifically a game to appeal to niches.