IS TRing broken and should we be giving a new way to avoid TRing and enjoy endgame?

[CPDK9]

Would a separate TR bank help solve some of the issues? Each toon would have a TR bank to transfer all gear into prior to TRing. It would be the player's responsibility to transfer gear not the gaming systems. The TR bank would have a set limit of slots (say 40 slots to start) with options to purchase more similar to shared bank. The TR bank is BTC in that only that toon could make withdrawals. This allows the deposit and withdrawal of BTC equipment along with all other types.

Thoughts?

[Keladon]

Would a separate TR bank help solve some of the issues? Each toon would have a TR bank to transfer all gear into prior to TRing. It would be the player's responsibility to transfer gear not the gaming systems. The TR bank would have a set limit of slots (say 40 slots to start) with options to purchase more similar to shared bank. The TR bank is BTC in that only that toon could make withdrawals. This allows the deposit and withdrawal of BTC equipment along with all other types.

Thoughts?

Or just don't automtically move items from the bank we already have to the TR cache when TR'ing?
And make bank tabs gained through favor persist through TR's as well.

[Thrudh]

The last time we had an actual, non-TR-driven endgame around here, it was BORING. And the poll in this thread is biased.

When the cap was 20, I found the game to be the best. You couldn't repeat epic quests over and over and over in the same day, so people were doing many different quests at cap. Good variety. Gear was the goal at cap. Either epic shard/seal/scrolls or raid gear. Plenty of raid groups every day.

And when you got tired of that, you could TR and enjoy the 1-20 game again. Usually when people got back to 20, they didn't immediately TR again. Instead they would stick at cap for a while and do some more epic questing to work on more gear.

It was a good balance.

If it's broken, sure, fix it - but NO ONE is forced to TR. "But the past life powercreep" - news flash, you don't NEED them to do the job! There's no content in the game that says "you must have this many past lives to enter." None. It makes things a bit easier, and having past lives does make some specific builds work a lot better, but by no means are they mandatory

I agree. TRs are not mandatory. Most of the TR systems are heavily front-loaded, and you can get 70%-80% of the benefits with just a few heroic PLs, or a few epic PLs. Racial TRing, however, is the exception. It's heavily back-loaded, which is annoying, but one can still +2 to your main stat with only 4 racial past-lives.

I have first and second life characters that do the same exact job in the current endgame content as uber completionists and do it 99% as well, which is good enough to run content with my guildies.

I do too, assuming you are talking about epic elite and legendary elite. None of my guys are running 5+ reaper though, until I get more reaper XP (which technically isn't a TR system, but until the devs fix reaper XP at cap, it heavily drives one to TR).

[TacoBob33]

Hint: Tring doesn't turn off new players

[Riddle_of_Steel]

THIS

Some sure it will but I doubt they were going to stick around either, they are looking for a game with an easier entry.

I know new players who stuck, and most I know who moved on (whom I still have some contact with) don't tend to stick on any game longer than 1 - 6 months outside of say CIV or the like.

Heck I know some new players who have more TR's in their first year than I have had in all my toons ever.

It's all a matter of presentation to them and to be frank server populations have a lot more to do with lack of retention. Server populations are down mainly, from what I can tell, because for a long LONG time class homogenization and full throttle power creep that invalidated grind before you could even complete it invalidated effort so they just walked away.

[Wonedream]

Hint: Tring doesn't turn off new players

HINT Go ask people playing other games HINT HINT HINT

I have already HINT HINT HINT

And yes it does. We get only a few and they usually don't stick around long enough to actually do 135 TRs.

Oh and hint hint, why are servers so dead? hint hint hint

Why are players discussing the possibility of a server merge? hint hint hint

oh I almost forgot, because so many people are joining DDO so they can TR 135 times or feel like they gotta pay 50 bucks a life to bypass.

Wow just makes you pay to play and doesn't jack your endgame from you.

And look at that game and its 20 million... that should be 20 million hint hints for you right there!

[Wonedream]

THIS

Some sure it will but I doubt they were going to stick around either, they are looking for a game with an easier entry.

I know new players who stuck, and most I know who moved on (whom I still have some contact with) don't tend to stick on any game longer than 1 - 6 months outside of say CIV or the like.

Heck I know some new players who have more TR's in their first year than I have had in all my toons ever.

It's all a matter of presentation to them and to be frank server populations have a lot more to do with lack of retention. Server populations are down mainly, from what I can tell, because for a long LONG time class homogenization and full throttle power creep that invalidated grind before you could even complete it invalidated effort so they just walked away.

Class is far more homogenized in Wow. WAY WAY MORE. And Power creep there takes you to level 100. And, they have 20 million players.

This completely obliterates your argument!

If homogenized and powercreeping didn't work, WoW would be a big time flop.


No, Endgame works, and WoW proves this. It also proves that homogenizing and power creep do not scare players away.

It may be the hardest thing in your life to admit, but it is true that it really IS the TRing more then anything else driving away population growth.

[TacoBob33]

Well you're biased so you're presenting the unique TRing system in a biased way. Also WoW has a pretty hefty advertising budget so it can get to more players than DDO a smaller niche market game can. Also DDO looks like an 11 year old game while WoW has the resources to spend patches just updating their game engine to make for a better visual experience.

[Wonedream]

When the cap was 20, I found the game to be the best. You couldn't repeat epic quests over and over and over in the same day, so people were doing many different quests at cap. Good variety. Gear was the goal at cap. Either epic shard/seal/scrolls or raid gear. Plenty of raid groups every day.

And when you got tired of that, you could TR and enjoy the 1-20 game again. Usually when people got back to 20, they didn't immediately TR again. Instead they would stick at cap for a while and do some more epic questing to work on more gear.

It was a good balance.



I agree. TRs are not mandatory. Most of the TR systems are heavily front-loaded, and you can get 70%-80% of the benefits with just a few heroic PLs, or a few epic PLs. Racial TRing, however, is the exception. It's heavily back-loaded, which is annoying, but one can still +2 to your main stat with only 4 racial past-lives.



I do too, assuming you are talking about epic elite and legendary elite. None of my guys are running 5+ reaper though, until I get more reaper XP (which technically isn't a TR system, but until the devs fix reaper XP at cap, it heavily drives one to TR).

Thank you Thuhd, great answers!

I agree that you can get most of the real goodies from a few TRs, but from the perspective of a new person getting introduced to this game after 5 years of playing WoW or some game with no TR system... try to see it from their perspective, and most of these are more hardcore about gaming then your usual players, they won't blink an eye at this, as soon as they see 135 to reach full development, they are gone.

If they could get this while capped, it looks like a better endgame then 135 TRs, which does not look at all like that to them.



I know this game well, and you are right, with just a few PLs in the right places you can get most of that. You can also get a +5 stat tomb from favor every life, so if you TR 6 times you can have +5 on your your stats without buying a tomb. Most toons don't need all their stats higher, just their main stats, which is usually 3. With 3 lives you can get legendary title, and +5 to your main 3 stats.

I think they should keep it that way too, so the only way to get those +5 stats is favor and TRing, which they should NOT get rid of, but simply provide an option so people who prefer to play capped can play capped and enjoy their character development instead of having only the level 1 again option. I will TR for those +5 tombs and that legendary title. Nothing else.

Now, if they can get PLs while capped, but can't get these few things I mentioned, it gives them an incentive to TR a few times without intimidating them with 135 times. If it looks mandatory, it will deeply affect the impression they get of this game.

They will eventually go after those tombs and title and the +4 stats probably from first two TRs, but they won't even get into it if it looks like its 135, which right now it does to a serious gamer, and you gotta consider gamers serious enough if they are playing or you are not seriously considering them.


Being at cap, with an option to TR, but also an option to run lots of content and develop your character is what it will take to restore those days when you yourself said this game was at its best.

That was the best time then, not now. We could bring back that model, but this is where it starts, adding PL acquisition and more content for endgamer style players, while at the same time letting them TR if they want, or if those +5 tombs, +4 stats, and title tempt them to. The lure for TRing should not go beyond that, and should be something people do because they like to and want to and not because it is the ONLY way to get PLs.

[TacoBob33]

When the cap was 20, I found the game to be the best. You couldn't repeat epic quests over and over and over in the same day, so people were doing many different quests at cap. Good variety. Gear was the goal at cap. Either epic shard/seal/scrolls or raid gear. Plenty of raid groups every day.

And when you got tired of that, you could TR and enjoy the 1-20 game again. Usually when people got back to 20, they didn't immediately TR again. Instead they would stick at cap for a while and do some more epic questing to work on more gear.

You do realize though that cap on a 3rd life toon was 4.2mil+ xp and to get from level to level you had to grind quests out for an insanely long period of time to get to the next level especially the closer you got to cap right? That was the deterrent to TRing back then and people still bothered with it, it just wasn't as easy as staying at cap where all the people who didn't want an insane grind stayed at playing with eachother and doing shroud and epic runs all day. Now that they've taken away the fear of getting to 18 and actually having enough xp from quests to cap easily without repeating any quests at all people are more willing to take the TR train. There is still plenty to do at cap it's just that to eek out more power now there's alot of options for TRing.

[Wonedream]

This game will never see its population increase if TR system is only method to fully developing your character. Never. Servers will decline, merge, and population with be compressed to players unable to see this, while those who saw it and saw nothing done about it for so long will likely go to other games and only drop in to see if remaining base figured it out yet.

[TacoBob33]

This game will never see its population increase if TR system is only method to fully developing your character. Never. Servers will decline, merge, and population with be compressed to players unable to see this, while those who saw it and saw nothing done about it for so long will likely go to other games and only drop in to see if remaining base figured it out yet.

so like, 5 people drop? i'm ok with this

[SmashBang]

no one is forced to TR.

even if you wanted 3 past lives of every possible past life, that would be a total of 123, not 150. And 3 of everything is not useful for many builds.

A first life toon is viable at level 30. I have one at 30 that I use for raiding and farming gear/ingredients.

I did not reply to the poll because of the poor options in the poll

[Wonedream]

so like, 5 people drop? i'm ok with this

You don't get it. Even losing 5 people equates to a loss.

The spirit of this game should be how to gain 5 people!

The TR niche again shows it teeth, growling at other niche styles that would like to play DDO too!

"We don't care" is the message they send! "Just quite its our game" is the message they send.

"We want to make a game great for everyone" is the message I never hear from their lips.

"Just go"...

If game loses 5 people and doesn't gain any, what direction is that leading to?

Think like a business man please. Money, we want more people playing because it means more people paying.

If they are developing updates with a "we don't care if 5 more people leave and no more people join" attitude, then this game is doomed to becoming 1 server of burnt out players still running in circles because they are too proud to admit they were wrong.

Maybe they will be still having fun, what is left of them...


I don' t think they will be having as much fun as the reality crystalize before their eyes.


We need a direction that will add 5 players to the game, not lose 5 players to the game. That is the spirit of success.

[TacoBob33]

No, there's not enough to do at cap. Pre-MOTU there was enough to do at cap -- about a dozen raids. After raising the level cap three times, the devs haven't provided enough of an incentive to stay at cap.

you have almost as many raids at cap now as you had at cap then, minus like 2

[TacoBob33]

You don't get it. Even losing 5 people equates to a loss.

The spirit of this game should be how to gain 5 people!

The TR niche again shows it teeth, growling at other niche styles that would like to play DDO too!

"We don't care" is the message they send! "Just quite its our game" is the message they send.

"We want to make a game great for everyone" is the message I never hear from their lips.

"Just go"...

If game loses 5 people and doesn't gain any, what direction is that leading to?

Think like a business man please. Money, we want more people playing because it means more people paying.

If they are developing updates with a "we don't care if 5 more people leave and no more people join" attitude, then this game is doomed to becoming 1 server of burnt out players still running in circles because they are too proud to admit they were wrong.

Maybe they will be still having fun, what is left of them...


I don' t think they will be having as much fun as the reality crystalize before their eyes.


We need a direction that will add 5 players to the game, not lose 5 players to the game. That is the spirit of success.

Well then let's add a FPS model too so that people who like to play first person shooters feel welcome in the game. Oh and let's add in cars so that the racing gamers have a place to play too, and more platforming for the platformers, and a 2d pixelated mode for the real hardcore platformers. Then we can get tons of players!!!

[Wonedream]

Well then let's add a FPS model too so that people who like to play first person shooters feel welcome in the game. Oh and let's add in cars so that the racing gamers have a place to play too, and more platforming for the platformers, and a 2d pixelated mode for the real hardcore platformers. Then we can get tons of players!!!

These are not bad ideas really.

They require budget and imagination to make work.

And should only be implemented if we are targeting those niches. But we can not target all niches at once.

First person shooting, this would be extremely easy to do. Add a new version of quests and don't make it about experience points or something on that line. There are a number of ways this can be done while keeping options for DDO to also remain as it is for those who like it that way.

I would check it out and play ddo the original way both. Any quest could be easily turned into a shoot it up style with its own setting. Shooters be coming then, and subscribing. They could even add blood effects or stuff shooter gamers like, tune in a little to what they want, and tailor the experience for them. This will get those kind of players here. Should we do this right away? No. We should take a careful examination of the niches that exist, determine the biggest ones, and feast on those ones first. Then work our way down the list, and with the increase in budget from this aggressive marketing strategy, start adding niches to the game.

Endgame is the biggest niche. Not TR game. We should go after that one, and thoroughly nail it, since it is the biggest pay load in online gaming right now.

Then we should look at the next biggest...

When cars finally do come up on that list, we should tailor make something like this. Horse races, mount racing, or a time travelling portal that puts DDO players in a future arena with cars. Can the game support a racing system? It comes down to budget... budget... budget... money money money money.... MONEY!!!

And if there is enough of it, YES, it would be easy.

A do it all in one game DDO... hell yeah, Ill be playing and paying and playing and paying... racing my space ship in the future, or my camel in the desert... against other players, who don't even play much of the original game, but love racing and find the variety of things to do here is just too good to pass up...

I would LOVE to race a scorpian... or a hell hound against your nightmare!


They could add arenas and other PvP stuff, and get PvP players here. They could have PvP shoot ups... then go on a quest and get some levels up so next time they go shooting, they got more surprises. No, they aren't playing DDO how DDO plays normally, but if the game evolved, they are playing DDO, and playing it more then they would have otherwise. And I am playing DDO, and having way more fun then I would have otherwise.

A game that is universally fun is a better game then a niche game.


DDO is not even DnD anymore. It is TR, PRR, no fly or shapechange, no climbing walls, no pick pocketing, no evil alignments... all sorts of things missing, and has turned into an evolved version from the original and probably the original idea of the game, to make dungeons and dragons an online experience.


Can you travel through time and race in a spaceship on paper and pen? Yes!

Can you go shoot it up style on paper and pen? Yes!

Can you race a camel in the desert on paper and pen? Yes!

Can you shapechange, fly, and travel ANYWHERE on paper and pen? Yes!

Paper and Pen was a universal gaming style that could cover whatever fantasies people had for playing. That is why Dungeons and Dragons excelled and earned a name for itself. It never had a TR system, or PRR complicating the math. I like both TR system and PRR system, but attack TR system because I see it constraining this game away from becoming a universally great game and turning it into a lesser form of itself. I am not asking it be removed, but the entire approach itself change to make this game as universally great as the paper and pen version is.


So, to answer your question, yes, adding cars and shoot em up options SIDE BY SIDE with what we already know is a very good idea I would immediately support and have now explained why.

[TacoBob33]

I forgot to use my sarcastic hyperbole voice

[Dark_Lord_Mary]

The argument and premise of this thread are not sound.
We the community can not fix this issue; SSG must.
A raid will not fix the broken system.
The errors are not a result of player behavior, voodoo, or lack of knowledge,
there is a problem with the back-end DDO Turbine/SSG TR/ETR code.

The solution SSG needs to implement is 2 prong:

1. A clearly defined public policy A-Z plan for all players who
TR/ETR that informs and guides victims through a step-by-step process
to recover lost stuff which insures players who invest time and $$ in TR'ing
that any items/tomes/gear missing to unintended deletion/loss during the
TR process will be 100% recovered (and a system is put in place to
allow GM's to easily do this)

2. SSG Developer(s) assigned to work on the TR/ETR back-end DDO code
to add or subtract the programming in the TR/ETR current system to track and eliminate
any and all errors that occur during the TR/ETR process. It begins
with an internal audit system that checks sums before and after, with the
end result being code that performs the TR/ETR error-free.

Step 1 builds trust and motivates the community of players to continue TRing knowing
exactly what to do if an issue occurs and Step 2 fixes the issue once and for all
insuring quality of product and ultimately player loyalty keeping time/items/tomes/gear
100% safe from unintended deletion or loss.

[TacoBob33]

The argument and premise of this thread are not sound.
We the community can not fix this issue; SSG must.
A raid will not fix the broken system.
The errors are not a result of player behavior, voodoo, or lack of knowledge,
there is a problem with the back-end DDO Turbine/SSG TR/ETR code.

The solution SSG needs to implement is 2 prong:

1. A clearly defined public policy A-Z plan for all players who
TR/ETR that informs and guides victims through a step-by-step process
to recover lost stuff which insures players who invest time and $$ in TR'ing
that any items/tomes/gear missing to unintended deletion/loss during the
TR process will be 100% recovered (and a system is put in place to
allow GM's to easily do this)

2. SSG Developer(s) assigned to work on the TR/ETR back-end DDO code
to add or subtract the programming in the TR/ETR current system to track and eliminate
any and all errors that occur during the TR/ETR process. It begins
with an internal audit system that checks sums before and after, with the
end result being code that performs the TR/ETR error-free.

Step 1 builds trust and motivates the community of players to continue TRing knowing
exactly what to do if an issue occurs and Step 2 fixes the issue once and for all
insuring quality of product and ultimately player loyalty keeping time/items/tomes/gear
100% safe from unintended deletion or loss.

I agree, Sev could do wonders with this situation by taking some time out of his day to tell everybody whats up. Not that they aren't working on it, they are, they just need to tell all the everybody that in a very public way. Almost to the extent of telling everybody in every possible way, in game and all.