IS TRing broken and should we be giving a new way to avoid TRing and enjoy endgame?

[Keladon]

It doesn't matter if you didn't vote.

It matters that other people did

This is why it does matter:

This poll is biased towards the OP's opinion, and none of the options matched my opinion. If unbiased options were provided, as suggested by previous posters, myself and others may have voted, to provided more accurate results.

Then again, something tells me accurate results is not what you're after..

[FuryFlash]

It doesn't matter if you didn't vote.

It matters that other people did

When the poll is severely biased, the results are essentially moot. A less biased poll would show you results closer to reality, though still inaccurate due to other problems such as the small sample size.

[Algreg]

It doesn't matter if you didn't vote.

It matters that other people did

not really, as your wording invalidated your poll even by non-representative forum standards. I still wonder if you understand this and just doing it for commotion´s sake or if the concept of loaded polls really eludes you. But either way, you do not need a sociology degree to see how absolutely worthless your result is.

[Pyed-Pyper]

It doesn't matter if you didn't vote.

It matters that other people did

I see here and elsewhere you are quoting the results of your poll as if it had some relevance to reality. I suggest you refine your poll results with another:

Your TR Poll:
1) I'm right
2) You're wrong
3) None of the above
4) All of the above

You might want to include more pronouns for added ambiguity. Ambiguity is the essence of quotable polls.

[Wonedream]

I see here and elsewhere you are quoting the results of your poll as if it had some relevance to reality. I suggest you refine your poll results with another:

Your TR Poll:
1) I'm right
2) You're wrong
3) None of the above
4) All of the above

You might want to include more pronouns for added ambiguity. Ambiguity is the essence of quotable polls.

Your humorous, and I find it funny.

But that doesn't make you correct.



You can make your own version in jest, it does not change the original you jested.

Which was:

Yes, I am not happy forced to TR, repeat 150 times, risk bugs, and TRing is a nightmare!

Should I break it down for you

Yes, I am not happy forced to TR (to acquire PLs and play game to progress off course, but for overly technical people with difficulty understanding this obvious part, Ill mention it now. Those who voted for this voted for this statement, they feel FORCED to TR to make progress in the game. You might not, but they know what those words meant when I wrote them... it isn't Chinese)

repeat 150 times (this described the TR system, that thing they feel forced to do to make progress in the game, approximately 150 times, or if you want to get technical, 30 rpls + 45 pls + 45 epls + 15 ipls for 135 pls.. which makes little different and anyone familiar with the game knows what I mean by 150 times and voted for that choices still)

and this last part is really clear...


TRing is a NIGHTMARE (not a lot of room for misinterpretation there. The people who voted for this probably know what the word nightmare means, and yet, they voted for it anyway, because it was that word combined with the others, that fit a description of how they felt)

Yet you confuse this clear and easy to understand statement as somehow equating to "I am right" because you either can not see that others agree and do not like TRing, or you just do NOT want to see it. Either way, the reality IS... there is a percentage of players STILL playing the game in SPITE of the fact they HATE TRing... how many more are NOT playing the game because of it???


Do I need to go into greater detail for option B?

Yes, better safe then sorry...

No, everyone should have to TR, they just need to fix the bugs (if that ever happens)

No everyone should have to TR (to make progress in the game with PL acquisitions, which again, people familiar with the game, the term TR, will understand what is meant by the word SHOULD (for progress). For a normal mind with a healthy ability to interpret, like the 10 people who voted because they understood what they saw, didn't filter it through their preference lens, and simply agreed with the statement the fit their opinion, feeling, perception, it is easy to understand what SHOULD is referring to.)

They just need to fix the bugs (if that ever happens). (If you don't want TR bugs fixed and want TR for everyone... Im gonna run the opposite direction of any dialogue with that sort of lack of logic... if you support TR system, yes, you should be opposed to bugs that mess with it. I think this goes with out saying, for most, probably so) (I aded (if that ever happens) to make it clear that right now it has not happened, thereby maybe bringing to awareness an increased consideration for this problem)

This is not "you are wrong"


And Option C is pretty obvious.


You can try to interpret these words and this poll for others, but you can't control or change the OP, which they will see first, only try to add the weight of you logic, reason, and opinion to the responses there after. And nothing you say will change that people have identified with the words, even if you haven't. To say their representation does not count because your didn't see an option that fits your representation is disrespectful of their representation. Either acknowledge these votes as expressions made valid by vote support, or deny yourself what the people voted and lose with it your ability to see what it going on, focusing instead on what you prefer.

[cpw_acc]

Your humorous, and I find it funny.

But that doesn't make you correct.



You can make your own version in jest, it does not change the original you jested.

Which was:

Yes, I am not happy forced to TR, repeat 150 times, risk bugs, and TRing is a nightmare!

Should I break it down for you

Yes, I am not happy forced to TR (to acquire PLs and play game to progress off course, but for overly technical people with difficulty understanding this obvious part, Ill mention it now. Those who voted for this voted for this statement, they feel FORCED to TR to make progress in the game. You might not, but they know what those words meant when I wrote them... it isn't Chinese)

repeat 150 times (this described the TR system, that thing they feel forced to do to make progress in the game, approximately 150 times, or if you want to get technical, 30 rpls + 45 pls + 45 epls + 15 ipls for 135 pls.. which makes little different and anyone familiar with the game knows what I mean by 150 times and voted for that choices still)

and this last part is really clear...


TRing is a NIGHTMARE (not a lot of room for misinterpretation there. The people who voted for this probably know what the word nightmare means, and yet, they voted for it anyway, because it was that word combined with the others, that fit a description of how they felt)

Yet you confuse this clear and easy to understand statement as somehow equating to "I am right" because you either can not see that others agree and do not like TRing, or you just do NOT want to see it. Either way, the reality IS... there is a percentage of players STILL playing the game in SPITE of the fact they HATE TRing... how many more are NOT playing the game because of it???


Do I need to go into greater detail for option B?

Yes, better safe then sorry...

No, everyone should have to TR, they just need to fix the bugs (if that ever happens)

No everyone should have to TR (to make progress in the game with PL acquisitions, which again, people familiar with the game, the term TR, will understand what is meant by the word SHOULD (for progress). For a normal mind with a healthy ability to interpret, like the 10 people who voted because they understood what they saw, didn't filter it through their preference lens, and simply agreed with the statement the fit their opinion, feeling, perception, it is easy to understand what SHOULD is referring to.)

They just need to fix the bugs (if that ever happens). (If you don't want TR bugs fixed and want TR for everyone... Im gonna run the opposite direction of any dialogue with that sort of lack of logic... if you support TR system, yes, you should be opposed to bugs that mess with it. I think this goes with out saying, for most, probably so) (I aded (if that ever happens) to make it clear that right now it has not happened, thereby maybe bringing to awareness an increased consideration for this problem)

This is not "you are wrong"


And Option C is pretty obvious.


You can try to interpret these words and this poll for others, but you can't control or change the OP, which they will see first, only try to add the weight of you logic, reason, and opinion to the responses there after. And nothing you say will change that people have identified with the words, even if you haven't. To say their representation does not count because your didn't see an option that fits your representation is disrespectful of their representation. Either acknowledge these votes as expressions made valid by vote support, or deny yourself what the people voted and lose with it your ability to see what it going on, focusing instead on what you prefer.

Its not really my place to speak for Pyed-Pyper, but it looks like you misunderstood his post.

My interpretation is not that he misunderstands your own poll (which you seem to assume, by your lengthy explanation of every option), but was humorously pointing out that it is intrinsically biased.

[Wonedream]

not really, as your wording invalidated your poll even by non-representative forum standards. I still wonder if you understand this and just doing it for commotion´s sake or if the concept of loaded polls really eludes you. But either way, you do not need a sociology degree to see how absolutely worthless your result is.

Naw, just TR supporters gathering forces trying to invalidate a poll of human opinion and vote that will expose TRing for what it is, a system that is neither Universal nor fun for everyone.

Wordplay isn't gonna stitch this up, and your TR buddies won't change anything either.

TRing is a Nightmare is as clear as can be

Just fix the bugs is also clear

The poll is clear, it asks if people support TRing or think it is a nightmare.


Oh my god!

Someone actually made a poll that might expose this!!! o.O o.O

Red Alert... people might see other people's votes!!!! and on these topics...

Better get the crew and try to invalidate this whole thing so we can go back to pretending everyone likes TRing again!!!


Looking into this little camera while I flash it, "you never saw this thread, no one ever voted, game is filled with TR lovers, everyone on earth loves TRing"

Now repeat after me... FLASH....



Not happening.

This needs to be seen. It needs to be clear. And a group banding together to try and gag this and control opinion by silencing our awareness of each other and where we stand... IS NOT GOING WORK!

I am not mad at you, nor your enemy, nor trying to outwit you, or show off, or think I am the only one right, or any claim made.

I made a poll. And it makes sense to me, and the 28 people who voted in it so far. By saying this poll is total rubbish, you are basically trying to hide their causes.

And... people are STILL VOTING

[Wonedream]

Its not really my place to speak for Pyed-Pyper, but it looks like you misunderstood his post.

My interpretation is not that he misunderstands your own poll (which you seem to assume, by your lengthy explanation of every option), but was humorously pointing out that it is intrinsically biased.

How is it biased?

It basically is asking this

Do you like TRing...

Yes I like it and support it

No I do not like it and do not support it.






I might not have worded it that way, but the repercussions add up to this basically if you look at them.

TRing is a nightmare = I don't like TRing.

TRing is okay = I like TRing

I didn't add another option on purpose, other then undecided or don't know.

So, either you like it and think we should do it

you don't like it and think we should not do it

or you are undecided.

It is not biased for my to ask this. I provided an option of support and no support, something for TR fans and something for TR loathers and something for those who aren't sure.

Claiming that it is does not make it so. Even if a band of people with common interest bounce that idea through everyone's elses eyes, it won't change that the poll is not biased. It is just asking a simple question and you do NOT have to vote, no one is forcing to you to vote...


Do you think the people who voted option A are biased?

or is it the people who voted option B that are biased?

This poll simply shows there are people who

LIKE THE TR SYSTEM AND THINK IT SHOULD STAY HOW IT IS

DO NOT LIKE THE TR SYSTEM AND WANT A CHANGE

It has nothing to do with bias steering at all. It is easy to follow for the people who voted in it. For those who didn't, the problem is more likely that they just don't want to see that these votes even exist, and therefore be aware of them.

People are still voting. No one has the right to tell them they can't either. It is their choice, not yours!

[psykopeta]

i do not read like in the poll, i read not liking, forced, must, have to

which is all false, maybe it's not fron your pov, but that won't change it, 1st lifers keep being useful at "endgame", where the impact of pl is more noticeable are low levels

ofc, without gear, pl, underlevel, bad feats and enhancements can make the experience harder, in that case pl won't make a difference either, in fact, pl is what less repercussion have in the total

[cpw_acc]

How is it biased?

It basically is asking this

Do you like TRing...

Yes I like it and support it

No I do not like it and do not support it.






I might not have worded it that way, but the repercussions add up to this basically if you look at them.

TRing is a nightmare = I don't like TRing.

TRing is okay = I like TRing

I didn't add another option on purpose, other then undecided or don't know.

So, either you like it and think we should do it

you don't like it and think we should not do it

or you are undecided.

It is not biased for my to ask this. I provided an option of support and no support, something for TR fans and something for TR loathers and something for those who aren't sure.

Claiming that it is does not make it so. Even if a band of people with common interest bounce that idea through everyone's elses eyes, it won't change that the poll is not biased. It is just asking a simple question and you do NOT have to vote, no one is forcing to you to vote...


Do you think the people who voted option A are biased?

or is it the people who voted option B that are biased?

This poll simply shows there are people who

LIKE THE TR SYSTEM AND THINK IT SHOULD STAY HOW IT IS

DO NOT LIKE THE TR SYSTEM AND WANT A CHANGE

It has nothing to do with bias steering at all. It is easy to follow for the people who voted in it. For those who didn't, the problem is more likely that they just don't want to see that these votes even exist, and therefore be aware of them.

People are still voting. No one has the right to tell them they can't either. It is their choice, not yours!

My own completely and utterly unbiased poll:

Do you like cats?

() Yes I am a wonderful loving human being who obviously loves adorable cats because they are so cute and fluffy
() No I am a miserable animal-hating low-life with total disregard for any life other than my own and think cats are evil creatures of hell.
() Not sure

Understand my point yet (as also pointed out by several dozen other posters on here)?

[Wonedream]

My own completely and utterly unbiased poll:

Do you like cats?

() Yes I am a wonderful loving human being who obviously loves adorable cats because they are so cute and fluffy
() No I am a miserable animal-hating low-life with total disregard for any life other than my own and think cats are evil creatures of hell.
() Not sure

Understand my point yet (as also pointed out by several dozen other posters on here)?

And no one has to vote in it. Nor will they if none of those options fit them. But people ARE voting in my poll, so my options FIT them.

Understand my point yet (as also pointed out by several dozen other posts on here)?

[FuryFlash]

Naw, just TR supporters gathering forces trying to invalidate a poll of human opinion and vote that will expose TRing for what it is, a system that is neither Universal nor fun for everyone.

Wordplay isn't gonna stitch this up, and your TR buddies won't change anything either.

TRing is a Nightmare is as clear as can be

Just fix the bugs is also clear

The poll is clear, it asks if people support TRing or think it is a nightmare.


Oh my god!

Someone actually made a poll that might expose this!!! o.O o.O

Red Alert... people might see other people's votes!!!! and on these topics...

Better get the crew and try to invalidate this whole thing so we can go back to pretending everyone likes TRing again!!!


Looking into this little camera while I flash it, "you never saw this thread, no one ever voted, game is filled with TR lovers, everyone on earth loves TRing"

Now repeat after me... FLASH....



Not happening.

This needs to be seen. It needs to be clear. And a group banding together to try and gag this and control opinion by silencing our awareness of each other and where we stand... IS NOT GOING WORK!

I am not mad at you, nor your enemy, nor trying to outwit you, or show off, or think I am the only one right, or any claim made.

I made a poll. And it makes sense to me, and the 28 people who voted in it so far. By saying this poll is total rubbish, you are basically trying to hide their causes.

And... people are STILL VOTING

To be clear, just because someone mentions the biased nature of this poll and thread, does not make them part of some fictional group of "TR Supporters". I have not personally even seen evidence that there is an "Endgame Club" or a "TR Club" in-game. Most people I have played with just log in and play whatever quest they feel like on whatever character they feel like; they have a few alts, and maybe a couple pastlives on a few of them. Some have played characters at level 30, some have only ever played heroics but don't TR. This is the playerbase I know - but don't get me wrong, I have met some people who just love to grind out their past lives and only play one character to be the best they can. I haven't met many players who just sit at 30, never doing TRs, just playing legendary quests. The most endgame players I have seen are the same ones who have all done all their past lives.

You are right that the people who voted clearly agreed with your poll choices in at least some regards - what posters here are saying doesn't invalidate their opinions. However, the fact that a group of people have those specific opinions cannot be used as realistic evidence of the DDO Forums' community's actual views of the matter being discussed. This is because you are missing a potentially large chunk of people who cannot vote honestly on this poll due to skewed, biased options.

You are comparing two opinions: a group who believe that TRing is a forced aspect of the game in terms of advancement, with an extreme opposition to TRing as a whole; and a group who believe that TRing is a forced aspect of the game in terms of advancement, and are happy with that. These two opinions do not come close to encapsulating the full range of opinions on the general topic at hand, and therefore cannot be used as evidence in any discussions on the topic.

As suggested previously in this thread, consider a poll with simple, unbiased answers to the stated question, such as the following example, using your question:

"Should we have the option to avoid TRing and still get PLs"
- Yes
- No
- Undecided or N/A

Then in the OP you could ask voters to give a reason for their choice and/or a suggestion for what options to avoid TRing should be available if they voted yes.

Sometimes, the best polls are the simple ones - not necessarily broad in scope, but simple.

Thanks

[cpw_acc]

And no one has to vote in it. Nor will they if none of those options fit them. But people ARE voting in my poll, so my options FIT them.

Understand my point yet (as also pointed out by several dozen other posts on here)?

So your conclusion is that just because people are voting in a poll, that is sufficient to mean that the poll is unbiased?

[Wonedream]

To be clear, just because someone mentions the biased nature of this poll and thread, does not make them part of some fictional group of "TR Supporters". I have not personally even seen evidence that there is an "Endgame Club" or a "TR Club" in-game. Most people I have played with just log in and play whatever quest they feel like on whatever character they feel like; they have a few alts, and maybe a couple pastlives on a few of them. Some have played characters at level 30, some have only ever played heroics but don't TR. This is the playerbase I know - but don't get me wrong, I have met some people who just love to grind out their past lives and only play one character to be the best they can. I haven't met many players who just sit at 30, never doing TRs, just playing legendary quests. The most endgame players I have seen are the same ones who have all done all their past lives.

You are right that the people who voted clearly agreed with your poll choices in at least some regards - what posters here are saying doesn't invalidate their opinions. However, the fact that a group of people have those specific opinions cannot be used as realistic evidence of the DDO Forums' community's actual views of the matter being discussed. This is because you are missing a potentially large chunk of people who cannot vote honestly on this poll due to skewed, biased options.

You are comparing two opinions: a group who believe that TRing is a forced aspect of the game in terms of advancement, with an extreme opposition to TRing as a whole; and a group who believe that TRing is a forced aspect of the game in terms of advancement, and are happy with that. These two opinions do not come close to encapsulating the full range of opinions on the general topic at hand, and therefore cannot be used as evidence in any discussions on the topic.

As suggested previously in this thread, consider a poll with simple, unbiased answers to the stated question, such as the following example, using your question:

"Should we have the option to avoid TRing and still get PLs"
- Yes
- No
- Undecided or N/A

Then in the OP you could ask voters to give a reason for their choice and/or a suggestion for what options to avoid TRing should be available if they voted yes.

Sometimes, the best polls are the simple ones - not necessarily broad in scope, but simple.

Thanks

Thanks, Ill just use that idea so we can get somewhere. I wasn't trying to skewer anyone here, but sure, let's use this simpler version and see how it works. Thanks again!

[Eryhn]

To be clear, just because someone mentions the biased nature of this poll and thread, does not make them part of some fictional group of "TR Supporters".

this.

selfishly taking myself as an example:
main: 7th heroic life, 13th epic life
alt1: 3rd heroic , 1 EPL
alt2: 3rd heroic, no EPL
alt3: 2nd heroic, no EPL
alt4: 2nd heroic, no EPL
plus a bunch of first life alts.

now, on my main I do work with some goals, but I'm in no particular hurry with those PLs. for the 3rd life alts, getting EPLs is a project, but again, no rush. I realize there are benefits to doing it and have one toon that collects lives a bit but I dont feel forced to TR/ETR and only do it when I want to so that whole angle of the OP is a no issue for me.
However at the same time, while not being overly eager about it i DO TR often enough to be bugged by the bug.

Without shouting out "YEEEHAW TRs ARE SOOOO FUN" - and without grumping around "TRs ARE FROM HELL" I would like to vote FIX THIS DARN BUG ALREADY.

alas, not in the poll. *shrug*

[Wonedream]

Well oddly, I didn't time this poll or the other one. And people are still voting in it. As someone just voted while we were talking.

Like I said, it might not be a perfectly worded poll, but the fact that people are voting does say something, even if it doesn't give a full picture, it adds to the image.

It seems catalyzed enough to the point where people are making up their minds and picking, even if not everyone does this.

With two polls, this might become more interesting then just one anyways. Maybe the other poll will turn up more participation?

The way I see it, more people are just adding weight to statements now made. It is too late to edit the poll, just the OP, which isn't the same.

These statements will just collect over time, showcasing that there are people who think TR is a nightmare, and people who think it should stay, and then the frustrated people who think the poll is biased and won't vote because it didn't include their exact answer. I take it they understand the answers then, so they understand the weight voters give those answers, even if they can not themselves do that.

It was meant to be along the lines of, do you support TR system only or do you want another option for PLs?

As you can see, I will just keep trying until I get this poll thing down and we get answers!

[FuryFlash]

Thanks, Ill just use that idea so we can get somewhere. I wasn't trying to skewer anyone here, but sure, let's use this simpler version and see how it works. Thanks again!

Thanks, I have voted on that thread - I appreciate the willingness to consider other options.

[Wonedream]

this.

selfishly taking myself as an example:
main: 7th heroic life, 13th epic life
alt1: 3rd heroic , 1 EPL
alt2: 3rd heroic, no EPL
alt3: 2nd heroic, no EPL
alt4: 2nd heroic, no EPL
plus a bunch of first life alts.

now, on my main I do work with some goals, but I'm in no particular hurry with those PLs. for the 3rd life alts, getting EPLs is a project, but again, no rush. I realize there are benefits to doing it and have one toon that collects lives a bit but I dont feel forced to TR/ETR and only do it when I want to so that whole angle of the OP is a no issue for me.
However at the same time, while not being overly eager about it i DO TR often enough to be bugged by the bug.

Without shouting out "YEEEHAW TRs ARE SOOOO FUN" - and without grumping around "TRs ARE FROM HELL" I would like to vote FIX THIS DARN BUG ALREADY.

alas, not in the poll. *shrug*

Well said!

Sorry I missed that neutral just fix the bug option for ya. Im new to polling, pardon the newb error.

I figure the TR bug is a priority, but not one worth talking about too loudly.

If it isn't, and it persists for a year or two longer... (gasps)

The second option does say everyone should have to TR, so it turned the poll into a TR vs not TR issue primary, while assuming TR bug has to be fixed anyways.

If you are somewhere in the middle of TR vs not TR, then the poll isn't going to fit you. Maybe a bigger poll would be better, but I think Ill let this one run its course and maybe someone else will provide one?

Option 4 might be in your case (I dont care about what happens with TR, but please fix bugs)???

[Riddle_of_Steel]

I voted no.

I take exception to the portion that says "everyone should have to TR" but chose to ignore it.

Also selection bias polls are worthless but I wanted to make sure that this one didn't have just the TR haters posting in it and somehow be used as "proof" that everyone wants TR to be abolished.

I mean there are people out there who thing Hurricane Harvey was weaponized weather control (not kidding at all on that) soo ....

I will also say that while they should fix the bugs the poll seems to infer that the bugs are substantial, they are not. They occur very rarely but certainly have a high impact when they do.

[Riddle_of_Steel]

Also I just sat on this, and frankly was going to let it go but ..

Why not vote the second option then? The one that says "everyone should TR, they just need to fix the bugs"

Because it does not say you are being forced, but that in the opinion of those voting that way, it is just something you have to do if you want your toon top notch. Isn't it after all?...

First of all you quoted your option and then purposefully misquoted it so as to "prove your point" the actual quote is "No, everyone should have to TR, they just need to fix the bugs (if that ever happens)" Now I have bolded the relevant part, you know the part that you left out that clearly indicates choosing this option is requiring you to TR, which if you don't like or want to TR means you would be forced to TR.

It's very clear you have a strong bias and opinion, it's also very clear you tried to engineer this poll to try and help you support that. But when people call you on it at least have personal conviction in your opinions to stand with them.

Now as for me I TR because ... and get this ... I LIKE to TR. Post MOTU I found end game exceedingly dull, horrifically dull in fact. Prior to MOTU I think I had maybe 2 or 3 TR's across all my toons and no multiple TR's because I enjoyed end game so wanted to stay there, at end game. I TR now because I find that play more interesting and more exciting than end game. I have WAY more quests to choose from, WAY more grouping options. Never mind that pre-MOTU I played dozens of toons so a particular playstyle never got boring, some were at end game and others spread across the levels to help our friends and guildies. End game gave unbound and bound to account materials to make the bound to character items so there was a good economy and reason to keep a toon or three there, in particular because there were no raid bypass timers. And hey a couple of them were working on being able to run Epics (not the system we have now but the original epics).

MOTU moved us into BTC end game rewards, destroyed the old Epic quests, gave us a new system of "enhancement points" that were basically as powerful as feats and very few quests to run at the top. All of this quickly destroyed the vast majority of reasons to keep a character at end game, at least for me.

So I now TR because I like to. I don't have a completionist even on my main toon though I am thinking if trying for it. With Racial TR'ing I get the option to run lives in classes I already have 3 of and still get some progression for the effort so that is a great win for me as well.