Early Look - Cleric Domains

[unbongwah]

Coming to the thread late, so apologies if this was already addressed and I missed it. But I don't see why domains are being added as a ton of class-specific feats rather than by revising the Divine Disciple* tree. Make it like Archmage, wherein you pick light or dark path at lvl 1 and your domain at lvl 3 with the core enhancements; all of your domain SLAs or other bonuses are granted by the 6/12/18 cores. This keeps domains consistent with other caster abilities. This also addresses complaints that some of the lvl 5/9/14 abilities are too powerful for their level or to be "free" class abilities if (A) they're delayed a few levels and (B) you have to spend APs to acquire them so there's an opportunity cost associated with them. It also makes it easier to implement any domain restrictions if necessary, e.g., if devs wanted to restrict Death Domain to Dark Disciples only or Good Domain to Light Disciples.

And if people say, "Hey, this makes clerics way too powerful compared to FvS and druids!" - well, I agree, so it's a good thing the devs are supposed to buff those classes too, right?

*In the case of War and Healing domains, those should be implemented thru Warpriest and Radiant Servant changes, respectively.

[Silverleafeon]

Coming to the thread late, so apologies if this was already addressed and I missed it. But I don't see why domains are being added as a ton of class-specific feats rather than by,,.

Domains are a core class feature in 3rd Edition D&D, so addressing them with a Core Class change seems appropriate.

http://www.d20srd.org/

[unbongwah]

Domains are a core class feature in 3rd Edition D&D, so addressing them with a Core Class change seems appropriate.

Sure, but the way SSG is implementing domains is totally different from how they work in PnP, where they mostly just grant you access to bonus spells.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm

Invoking PnP rules to defend some of the devs' implementation but then just handwave the differences seems silly to me. Like why is SSG's bastardized version of domains the "right" way to do it but my suggestions - or anyone else's - the "wrong" way to do it?

[SpartanKiller13]

*In the case of War and Healing domains, those should be implemented thru Warpriest and Radiant Servant changes, respectively.

So what you're suggesting is that I can get 2-3 domains? As long as I want Healing/War - which any Cleric I build will probably have.

[Tlorrd]

Here is my feedback ...

Domains
Starting at level 2, a Cleric will pick one Domain which will provide additional (free) class feats as they level.

Air Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Evocation spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.

Your lightning spells will use Light Spell Power if it is higher.

Your light spells will use Lightning Spell Power if it is higher.

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Reflex saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Electric Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Shocking Grasp as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Lightning Bolt as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Chain Lightning as an SLA

This is pretty good domain. Evocation bonuses and interchangeable Light and Electric spell power will be nice for a Sunbolt/Lightning Bolt ranged build. Mastery of Air and Light will mesh well to give the appropriate +10 max caster levels to those spells. Chain Lightning may suffer some due to max caster level at 20 (unless these "arcane" spells will benefit from the caster level increase in EDs, althought those don't address max caster level I think.)

Animal Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 Spot, +1 Listen, and +1 Reflex saving throws for every 2 Cleric levels.

Your Turn Undead works on Animals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Constitution equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain 10 hit points per Cleric level. You also add 10 hit points for each epic level you have gained.

Level 9: You gain +15% fortification bypass.

Level 14: You gain the Feral Charge ability. Your character to briefly morphs into a bear and charges forward through foes, attacking all foes in the charge area. The attack does weapon damage based on your equipped weapon with a +3(W) bonus, and enemies must make a Reflex saving throw with a DC of 19 + Wisdom modifier + Trip Bonuses or be knocked down. Cooldown is 15 seconds.

The HP are ok, fort bypass is ok, the feral charge comes too late into the game. Level 14 is a long time to wait to just get another trip ability. I would move this to level 5 or 9. Change the fort bypass to +25% and move it to level 14.

Chaos Domain

You cannot take this domain if you are Lawful.

Level 2: You gain +1 to Will saving throws for every 2 Cleric levels.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains 1d20 points of Universal Spell Power and 1d10 points (each rolled separately) of Melee Power, Ranged Power, Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating.

Level 5: You gain Chaos Hammer as an SLA

Level 9: Your spell critical chance is increased by 3%

Level 14: You gain Prismatic Spray as an SLA

The TU part is nice. Chaos hammer fits thematically. Maybe for level 9 consider Prismatic Strike (or Ray). Really make it a chaotic theme.

Death Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Necromancy spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.

You gain +2 to your effective Cleric level to Turn Undead, and +2 to the hit dice of undead effected.

Level 5: You gain Necrotic Ray as an SLA

Level 9: You are immune to Energy Drain.

Level 14: You gain Destruction as an SLA

Again as many people have said ... put the bonuses to TU into the Sun Domain. Change this one to be rebuke undead ... basically have it cast a command undead part. The spell parts and energy drain immunity are nice.

Destruction Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 Melee and Ranged Power. You gain another point of each at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level Cleric.

You can cast your Cleric spells while raging.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Melee Power and Ranged Power equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: Durability damage for your items is reduced by 75%.

Level 9: You weapons gain +2 to hit and damage.

Level 14: Your weapon strikes add a stack of Improved Destruction.

Casting while raging is pretty cool. Durability increase is weak sauce. If all you thought about was a cleric/acrobat/barb stick build, maybe. How about improved sunder, or shattermantle to go along with the improved destruction.

Earth Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Acid Spell Power (Corrosion) per Cleric Level

Your acid spells will use Light Spell Power if it is higher.

Your light spells will use Acid Spell Power if it is higher.

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Fortitude saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Acid Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Melf's Acid Arrow as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Stoneskin as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Earthquake as an SLA. The cooldown for this version is 15 seconds.

Beside Melf's, the only other acid spell is Slimy Doom. How about earthgrab SLA. This would make it interesting. The whole notion of acid spell power and then only adding in 1 spell seems weak.

Fire Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Fire Spell Power (Combustion) per Cleric Level

Your fire spells will use Light Spell Power if it is higher.

Your light spells will use Fire Spell Power if it is higher.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Fire Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

Level 5: You gain Scorching Ray as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Wall of Fire as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Firestorm as an SLA

Seems ok for fire themed. max caster levels will be an issue for these slas going into epics. Firestorm is ok since I believe it has no max caster level.

Good Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Light Spell Power (Radiance) per Cleric Level. You gain +1 to the Heal skill for every 2 Cleric levels.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains temporary hit points equal to five times your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Deific Vengeance as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Blade Barrier as an SLA

Level 14: You gain +3 to hit, damage, and armor class against evil creatures in combat. You gain +3 to saving throws against spells cast by evil creatures.

The level 14 one too me seems like garbage. This domain is all over the place. You have spells, heal skill, melee ... jack of all trades, master of none. If you say warpriests like this ... then you don't understand BB. You have to circle kite mobs to maximize it, thus you are not meleeing but running around.

Healing Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Positive Spell Power (Devotion) per Cleric Level

When you use Turn Undead your party gains 20 point of Healing Amplification.

Level 5: You gain Cure Moderate Wounds as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Panacea as an SLA

Level 14: Your healing spells are empowered, as if you had the Empower meta-magic. This does not increase their cost.

This seems ok, would have been nice to have an effect where temp hps are added every time you cast a healing spell ... Like 5x heal skill.

Knowledge Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 to all skills.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Intelligence equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Suggestion as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Feeblemind as an SLA

Level 14: You gain +4 Spell Penetration. You gain +2 to the DC of all spells.

This was toned down quite a bit ... it's ok.

Law Domain

You cannot take this domain if you are Chaotic.

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Enchantment spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th.

When you use your Turn Undead your party gains a Sacred bonus to saving throws equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Order's Wrath as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Greater Command as an SLA

Level 14: You gain +3 to hit, damage, and armor class against chaotic creatures in combat. You gain +3 to saving throws against spells cast by chaotic creatures.

This should have been your casting abjuration domain instead of enchantment. Order's wrath fits thematically, but dismissal and/or banishment should fit here as well as Holy Aura (or put this one in good domain). Also your TU should have affected outsiders here like the elemental ones do for elementals.

Luck Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to your Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saving throws. This increases by +1 at 6th level, +1 at 12th level, and +1 at 18th level.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to saving throws equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Displacement as an SLA

Level 9: You add +2 to the DC of your spells.

Level 14: You no longer automatically fail your saving throws on a roll of 1.

I would have liked to see the 1d6 to the DC of your spells. Displacement is nice.

Magic Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Evocation spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Universal Spell Power equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Chain Missiles as an SLA. (This shares a cooldown with the Archmage SLA.)

Level 9: You gain a number of bonus Spell Points equal to your character level x 10.

Level 14: You gain points of Universal Spell Power equal to your twice your Cleric level.

Lots of spell power and some spell points. Much needed. I would have changed the DC to be universal up to +3 during leveling since this encompasses all magic.

Protection Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to AC, PRR, and MRR. This increases by +1 at 5th level, 10th level, 15th level, and 20th level.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to PRR and MRR equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain the Shield spell as a permanent effect on you.

Level 9: You gain Radiant Forcefield as an SLA

Level 14: Your Armor Class and Physical Resistance Rating are increased by your Cleric level.

Pretty good, add defenses all around. Could have also put Holy Aura SLA here too.

Strength Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Strength and become immune to Strength damage.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Strength equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: Your Reflex saving throws are now based on Strength instead of Dexterity.

Level 9: You become immune to knock down effects

Level 14: You always make your saving throw against Stun effects.

Pretty thematic.

Sun Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 to Fire (Combustion) and Light Spell Power (Radiance) per Cleric level.

When you use Turn Undead you and your allies gain True Sight. in addition, for 20 seconds enemies in the radius of the Turn Undead have their incorporeal miss chance negated and will be inflicted with 10% vulnerability to Light damage.

Level 5: You gain Searing Light as an SLA.

Level 9: You gain Sun Beam as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Sunburst as an SLA

I think the SLAs are good ... Sun Bolt may have been too OP. The TU portion is garbage and doesn't really fit thematically at all. This is where your bonuses to TU caster level, effective level, HD, etc should be.

Trickery Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Enchantment spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Charisma equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Invisibility as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Mind Fog as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Charm Monster, Mass as an SLA

This is good ... except the Cha part. Wasted TU mechanic. Should be TU grants blur or displacement for 20 seconds. That is true trickery.

War Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 Damage with melee and ranged weapons. This increases at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Melee Power and Ranged Power equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain proficiency in all martial and exotic weapons.

Level 9: Your tactical DCs are increased by half your Cleric level.

Level 14: You gain Holy Sword as an SLA.

Pretty strong melee/ranged domain.

Water Domain

Level 2: You gain Water Breathing. You gain +1 to Swimming and +2 Cold Spell Power (Glaciation) per Cleric level.

Your cold spells will use Positive Spell Power if it is higher.

Your healing spells will use Cold Spell Power if it is higher.

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Will saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Cold Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Solid Fog as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Cone of Cold as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Greater Creeping Cold as an SLA

Sev~

Cone of cold and greater creep will have max caster level issues. Solid fog is nice.

A couple problems I still foresee is that cleric spell point totals are still under par, I mean you actually thought giving FVS more spell points in their base class options was a good idea. Also damage spells max caster levels will have issues into epics. The whole point of the master of x feats was to help with this issue ... now it will resurface again.

[Misty_Mtn_Marauder]

I am curious why Air Domain is getting DC boosts like the magic domain while the other elemental domains get spell power boosts?

Air Domain
Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Evocation spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.

I am curious about this as well.

[Silverleafeon]

I am curious about this as well.

Sort of follows legendary feats?
Maybe?

[Voxden]

I like the idea of domains to level the playing field a tad, but you guys should not go to big on it so fast.... instead, just restart from scratch, and rebuild at a slower, more controlled pace... Experiment awhile and make sure the domain system works in a way that feels natural to the game, and make sure it doesn't leave other classes jobless due to overpowered bonuses and abilities.

As it stands what you said is a fairly good idea, but some domains are either too underpowered or are overpowered. Also scrap the SLA's... try making the domains give access to bigger spell-lines that have to be slotted in the clerics spell-loadout. Maybe add some penalties to concepts outside that domains focus.

Maybe also rework the cleric ability trees a bit before pushing out domains... I think Warpriest needs a rework, and some trees could be tweaked to make them fit better with the new domain system.

Opinions may differ, but to add such a mechanic it will take time and thought. I know you guys are listening to our opinions and suggestions, and one thing I can say that might be of actual use. do not rush it... too many MMO's make mistakes due to rushed content and changes.

[elvesunited]

As it stands what you said is a fairly good idea, but some domains are either too underpowered or are overpowered. Also scrap the SLA's... try making the domains give access to bigger spell-lines that have to be slotted in the clerics spell-loadout. Maybe add some penalties to concepts outside that domains focus.

And replace the SLAs with what? Just normal spells? It's not enough to just give clerics the spells. They need a way to use them effectively. Clerics are low spell point casters who will run the tank dry very quickly using heavily meta'd lightning spells.

[edrein]

And replace the SLAs with what? Just normal spells? It's not enough to just give clerics the spells. They need a way to use them effectively. Clerics are low spell point casters who will run the tank dry very quickly using heavily meta'd lightning spells.

Personally, I'd like to see the original tabletop version with the spells rather than SLAs. But ultimately what we have is the best way to translate domains like War into DDO. As spells for War domain are mostly in our spellbooks already and aren't exactly good spells.

[Arch-Necromancer]

Personally, I'd like to see the original tabletop version with the spells rather than SLAs. But ultimately what we have is the best way to translate domains like War into DDO. As spells for War domain are mostly in our spellbooks already and aren't exactly good spells.

You were supposed to get an additional domain spell slot (like you get with Spontaneous casting). So it doesn't matter if the domain spell is from cleric spellbook or not, it goes only into that special spell slot.

I suppose SLAs may be a nice way to simulate such slot. And such SLA could also get additional perks such as no materials needed and/or reduced SP cost/cooldown.

But the problem of such SLA approach is that you can then have 2 same spells (SLA and regular spell), overriding the spell cooldown completely and possibly causing unwanted DPS overcharge.

But that can be avoided by careful implementation of Domain spells so it is not a big deal.


Domains should have just been additional SLAs, maybe with very minor one non-SLA benefit per Domain on level 1, but with 2 domains chosen at level 1, as the ruleset demands.

2 domains could have been simulated by choosing 2 domains at level 1 and then a domain spell could be choosen as an SLA feat on level up between two domain SLA choices.

It can still be done like that even with this proposal, just give players a choice for one SLA between two chosen domain SLAs at certain levels.


Non SLA benefits like huge DC boosts and spellpower changes are just too much and will no doubt cause OP builds. +4 Necro DC is outrageous. So they should be replaced with SLAs

Domains shouldn't be a way around a cleric tree pass.

[elvesunited]

You were supposed to get an additional domain spell slot (like you get with Spontaneous casting). So it doesn't matter if the domain spell is from cleric spellbook or not, it goes only into that special spell slot.

The domain cleric really should get a first level spell appropriate to their domain type at level 1 or 2. A high level spell at level 20 would be great as well. And really DDO should try to sync the domains with the "master of' feats.

I suppose SLAs may be a nice way to simulate such slot. And such SLA could also get additional perks such as no materials needed and/or reduced SP cost/cooldown.

The primary advantage of SLAs is the ability to use metamagics for free. No other perks are really needed.

But the problem of such SLA approach is that you can then have 2 same spells (SLA and regular spell), overriding the spell cooldown completely and possibly causing unwanted DPS overcharge.

That's pretty much how my favored soul and archmage wizard work now. heavily metamagiced SLAs and non-metad quick cast spells at the front of the hot bar. Heavily metamagiced normal spells at the end of the hot bar for special occasions ( as they are too expensive for constant casting ). I'm pretty sure that's how most sorcerers and divine disciple clerics work as well.

This isn't so much about giving the cleric DPS overcharge as giving him the chance to join the other DPS casters. "Hey Domain cleric! Come on over and join us in the pool. The water's nice."

Domains should have just been additional SLAs, maybe with very minor one non-SLA benefit per Domain on level 1, but with 2 domains chosen at level 1, as the ruleset demands.

2 domains could have been simulated by choosing 2 domains at level 1 and then a domain spell could be choosen as an SLA feat on level up between two domain SLA choices.

Sort of. For spell casting domains that might make sense depending if DDO even has enough spells that match that domain type [ not counting summoning ( because its weak until DDO figures out how to balance summon strength and difficulty level ) or long duration cleric spells ( because it gives no tangible benefit ) ] But for weapon-centered clerics who use magic only for buffs and healing not so much. Looking at the 4 "melee" types I'd say none of them qualify as over-powered ( now that war got nerfed ) so I see no issues there.

Non SLA benefits like huge DC boosts and spellpower changes are just too much and will no doubt cause OP builds. +4 Necro DC is outrageous. So they should be replaced with SLAs

Agreed. Increasing DCs will simply add to the issue of DC power creep. Though I do like the concept of a benefit that is slowly increased every cleric level or every few cleric levels. ( rather then a straight +1 caster level at level 1 )

Domains shouldn't be a way around a cleric tree pass.

Isn't that coming as well? I'm kind of hoping they make some effort to address domains in the enhancement trees. Even something simple like changing the core enhancements from (+5 fire +5 light ) to ( +5 fire +5 light +5 domain spell type if applicable )

[nayozz]

i wonder if you will also revise enhancement tress of the divine class

[Nightmanis]

I'm now imagining a War Domain 18 Cleric/2 Monk dwarf party healer/tactic build.

Heal, heal, heal, dire charge, stunning fist, heal, heal, buff, stunning fist. Quick calc shows a potential 117dc Dire from that build. Thinking though, you'd probably never hit doing it.

I'd be much more likely though to make an earth domain so I can double up on BB and Earthquake.

But, I'm most definitely curious in just adding 5 cleric to a build just for the free displace sla. At 5 cleric you also get cure serious, which is a massive bonus to this idea imo. Imagining a 12 monk 5-6 cleric 2-3 xx build. It could actually be added to quite a few builds.

Another option is Strength domain 12 Fighter 6 Cleric 2 Monk, but I feel like 6 monk is far better here just because of shadow veil. Makes for an interesting Sylvanus style build though.

[Niminae]

Coming to the thread late, so apologies if this was already addressed and I missed it. But I don't see why domains are being added as a ton of class-specific feats rather than by revising the Divine Disciple* tree. Make it like Archmage, wherein you pick light or dark path at lvl 1 and your domain at lvl 3 with the core enhancements; all of your domain SLAs or other bonuses are granted by the 6/12/18 cores.

From the FvS post:

We are working on a Divine pass, but for this pass instead of solely focusing on class trees we wanted to update the base classes.

My bolds for emphasis.

Apparently applying changes to the core class is easier than an enhancement tree pass.

I think that they had great success with the small U30 pass on Arcanotechnician and then the small U36 pass on Battle Engineer. Both were incremental rather than transformational and did not establish a new power bar, but instead tried (and succeeded imo) to bring Artificers up a bit in the meta. But in the BE pass they also made changes to the core class, and that seems to have informed their methodology for the Cleric and FvS changes.

[Iriale]

About lore:

Animal domain: clerics with this domain are nature lovers. Turn undead should or charm animals or work in aberrations. Destroy animals should be an anathema for a nature cleric.

Elemental domains: the turn undead should work in elementals of the opposite element

Chaos domain: should be more as a mini-shiradi random proc (or colors proc) More about randomness

Death Domain: once more, this domain is about creating undeads, not destroying undeads. Turn undead should charm (command) undeads, not destroy them

Sun domain: This is where the extra bonuses to turn undead should go. Although they should not be very large, you should not link the efficiency of this core cleric option to a single domain, but to the radiant servant prestige (which is based on that by lore)

Luck Domain: a healing spell or a free raise when you die is thematically appropriate. You are lucky!

Why Magic Domain doesn't have generic DCs increases? Magic is about efficiency of all magic, not only blasting. That domain should be DC efficiency, improved metamagic, better casting etc.

Devs: design the domains less about number inflation, more about fun aptitudes (as randomness in chaos domain, for example) thematically appropiate


About number balance:

These domains are better than the 5 feats of wizards. They have better SLAs than sorc has in his prestiges. For example: Level 14 in Knowledge domain: You gain +4 Spell Penetration. You gain +2 to the DC of all spells. +4 spell penetration is the same to 2 feats of spell penetration. +2 DC to ALL schools is better than 5 feats invested in school focus feats (+1 to ONE school each). How many feats does this ability equate?

Seriously… smaller bonuses are more appropriate, and if is need more would be added in the enhancements. Or are you going to give specializations to the wizzie, and bloodlines (aka pathfinder bloodlines) to the sorcerer? It is not convenient to have too many differences in DC, penetration and spell power within clerics with different domains, and with fvs. They should be small differences. You are repeating the same mistakes again and again.


Add earthquake to the fvs/cleric spell list. And align weapon. They are iconic divine spells.

[Renvar]

From the FvS post:

My bolds for emphasis.

Apparently applying changes to the core class is easier than an enhancement tree pass.

I think that they had great success with the small U30 pass on Arcanotechnician and then the small U36 pass on Battle Engineer. Both were incremental rather than transformational and did not establish a new power bar, but instead tried (and succeeded imo) to bring Artificers up a bit in the meta. But in the BE pass they also made changes to the core class, and that seems to have informed their methodology for the Cleric and FvS changes.

I'm not sure where you get "applying changes to the core class is easier" from in your quoted segment. Maybe it is just a better fit from a functional perspective. Changes to the core class have a different impact on trade off and power balance as well as the availability to/impact on multi-classing than changes to the enhancement trees.

Why assume their decision was based on what was "easier" for them vs. what was more comprehensive or a "better" design/result. Which may or may not have been more work for them.

[Uifareth_Cuthalion]

I confess that I have not read all 13 pages of comments, so please forgive me if I am not the first to express these ideas.

First off, I agree that clerics need a boost to keep up with the other classes. However, I think there is a strong danger of them becoming OP, rendering most other classes obsolete. For example:

- Clerics may make better evokers than sorcerers, with an extra +4 DC (not counting Divine Disciple bonuses); dual spell power focus; and phenomenally powerful SLAs like Firestorm and Sunburst, in contrast to sorcerer SLAs like Fireball and Lightning Bolt.

- Clerics may make better crowd control than wizards, druids or bards, with +4 DC and SLAs like Blade Barrier and Earthquake.

- A War Domain, Warpriest Cleric may make a better melee fighter than warrior classes, let alone Favored Soul, with full BAB (from Warpriest); +6 Strength (from Warpriest); +6 damage; and proficiency with all exotic weapons, which not even Fighters get. (At least they no longer have the base damage boost.) To make them more on a par with FS, I'd get rid of the +6 damage and exotic weapon proficiencies, and instead give them parity with Favored Soul using their deity's favored weapon.

Cheers.

[Nadion]

These are mostly way too OP

A lot of the SLAs given being given are way too strong to be SLAs. The elemental ones are stronger than what Savants get (without spending AP either!!)

The Domains that give +4 DCs arr also excessive. +1 or maybe +2 would be more sensible

Please just limit this to adding a few extra spells to the regular spellbook and the Turn undead boosts. The currently proposal makes a perfectly fine class OP and devalues other casters, especially Sorcerors. Then people get a little more flexibility and role play options without breaking balance

[elvesunited]

- A War Domain, Warpriest Cleric may make a better melee fighter than warrior classes, let alone Favored Soul, with full BAB (from Warpriest); +6 Strength (from Warpriest); +6 damage; and proficiency with all exotic weapons, which not even Fighters get. (At least they no longer have the base damage boost.) To make them more on a par with FS, I'd get rid of the +6 damage and exotic weapon proficiencies, and instead give them parity with Favored Soul using their deity's favored weapon.
Cheers.

I agree on the DC bonuses. But war domain better than warrior classes? Quick compare

Fighter:
11 extra fighting feats including several the cleric can't get. ( including up to +20 tactical DC )
Kensei: +10 damage (+ focus ) +40-60 melee power +1 crit range and multiplier
Stalwart: good PRR and MRR bonuses ( early ) +3 damage +6 Str, Con ( stacking ) bonus hp
Vanguard: eventually significant shield damage. +5 damage +10 melee power

War Domain Cleric:
+6 damage
free exotic proficiency ( really what character actually uses two exotic weapons? )
+10 Tactical DC
Holy Sword spell ( +1 crit range and multiplier )
from Warpriest: +6 Strength ( non-stackable with basic strength enhancing items )
from Warpriest: +4 favored weapon damage ( which generally isn't exotic )

Yeah the fighter class isn't shaking in its boots as the pure cleric melee still isn't near its league. Tier 5 of warpriest is so lacking I'm tempted to recommend Tier 5 Radiant servant instead. At least that way your constant self-healing will make up for some of your weaker defensive and offensive capabilities.

The real power though would be in the war domain cleric / fighter multi-class. Like most of the melee domain types, it really looks like it was designed not for the cleric but for the cleric-multiclass. ( in this case fighter )