Early Look - Cleric Domains

[SirValentine]

Even aside from the narrow and vertical domain implementation...

Devs have never even tried to give the feeblest explanation of why only 1 domain instead of the 2 we're supposed to have.

If 2 would be too powerful...that's because you're making them too powerful!

More breadth, less height.

[edrein]

LOL WUT

Pure classes are the best builds in virtually every class right now. Pure Casters of course, Pure Rogue with repeaters at range, and 20 ranger for melee. And all of these domains make a pure cleric MUCH stronger based on the SLAs and DCs. What in the world are you trying to argue here about pure classes?

+5 damage, +10 melee power for 20 seconds, +10 tactical DCs. You're right, that's the strongest thing in the world. -sarcasm-

[Qezuzu]

Sure,go ahead and do it. I will finish my racial lives on all my toons byrunning a cleric in good domain, tossing blade barrier SLAs like madand sprinting through the dungeons. It will be a faster run than mywarlock, arty, or mechanic.

I mean, if you give it to me,I'm gonna use it, but you probably won't like it.

SLAis just SP conservation, the Good domain isn't even strong. You canalready zerg with fully meta'd Blade Barriers if you have good SPgear. The only huge bonus is that you get BB two levelsearlier.

There is frankly nothing in these domains thatwill let you zerg as hard as Wlk/Art/Sorc/Mech or anything likethat.

+4 to DCs, or +10 tosaves, or +40 spell power, or 200 extra HP...that's not power creep,that's flavor!

Not.

Can we

PLEASE

PLEASE

PLEASE

PLEASE

stop crying about power creep whenever a class gets improved? Yes, I get it, class passes of the scope Bard had way back when were maybe a bad idea, but we're way past that, we're at a point where most classes have received a pass and we no longer have any gutter-tier enhancement trees a la pre-pass Mechanic. When Druid gets a pass (read: total overhaul) and gets majorly more powerful I am going to rip my hair out if people go "no no please don't do this, powercreep is bad!" or "nerf 10 other classes instead!"

Yeah, there's some stat inflation (but please don't tell me a paltry +40 spellpower is power creep; that's, what, a 3% increase in spell damage at lvl20?) There's also nice spell options that open up a lot of fun mechanical options. The power is NOT from the stats. It's the spells. Like Chaos Domain: I care a LOT more about Prismatic Spray than I do +10 Will Save. Or Death Domain, a second Destruction is way stronger than a mostly redundant +4 to Necro DCs.

Also, please do not simultaneously cry about power creep but also demand that Domains be implemented just like how they are in PnP. +4 to Necro DCs is one thing, getting Wail of the Banshee anda 2nd Slay Living on top of a 2nd Destruction is an ENTIRELY different thing, ON TOP OF a second domain.

If it was implemented like PnP all Clerics would choose at least Death domain and it would just be unfun. That's why domains are getting three spells instead of nine. That's why only one Domain is being allowed, because two is game breaking without seriously watering the domains down, which absolutely would require removing spells, or giving them very long, unfun cooldowns. I just want you to imagine Death+Earth clerics with all bonuses but the spells stripped out. Imagine using Destruction every 4 seconds while knocking everything down with Earthquake, on top of everything else a Cleric can already do.

There are just so many game balance problems for a PnP-literal implementation of Domains that you seem to so desperately want (on top of the technical challenges, i.e. a lot of spells not being in the game,) and yet here you are crying that +40 Spellpower is power creep (while ignoring the other aspects of the domains that grant such a bonus, which absolutely are flavorful.)

So choose one: "powercreep is bad" or "stay true to PnP."

[Silverleafeon]

Not much to add here, you seem to correct my concerns on the matter.
Overall I like the Domains idea.

I do feel that Cleric were already ahead Favored Souls via the Divine Disciple tree,
so you have your work cut out for you fixing the Angel of Vengeance tree.

Warpriest is mess, but Divine 12/Kensei 8 makes a decent build.
Again, you have your work cut out for you there too.

Child, Follower, and Beloved feats are still not worth taking for a Cleric or Pally.
So, you have some work to finish there as well.

[Kantia]

One of the enhancement trees for Clerics and Favored Souls at the moment is an implementation of a Domain.

It's called Warpriest.
Two of the core enhancements of the tree are called War Domain: Blur and War Domain: Haste.

Why not implement other domains in the same way? Maybe as a choice in one of the core enhancement choices along the lines of Archmage?


Or is the whole warpriest tree going to be removed or repurposed, what with Domains now being represented by these new features?

[Stormtytan]

I'd recommend making the elemental domains only turn the opposing element (e.g. air domain turns earth elementals), and *possibly* rebuking (or charming) the same element as the domain, as opposed to having them turn all elementals.

Regarding the Animal domain, perhaps charming them would be a better option than turning them with a Turn Undead.

I strongly feel that you should go with a 2-Domain option, with perhaps the second domain delayed by a level or two. Possibly it could be an option such as the Arcane Archer for Ranger, or a Tier 5 option on one of the trees? This would add a huge amount of flavor and variety for the cleric (which, IMHO, has always been one of the most versatile classes in the PnP game). Of course, if you DO go with a 2-domain option, and adjust the elemental domains as stated above, then one couldn't choose opposing elemental domains, yet still be able to affect all elementals in one fashion or another with proper domain selection (Earth/Fire, for example).

It would also kill the "powercreeping" argument, even if you have to slightly nerf the abilities of each domain to prevent it from getting *too* powerful.

Or perhaps the second domain chosen wouldn't be as powerful as if it were chosen as a primary? Say....lose the SLA's for the second chosen domain?

Stormtytan

[PNP]

SLAis just SP conservation

I would agree if the SLA you get are spells you have access to, last time I checked chain lightning isn´t.

So choose one: "powercreep is bad" or "stay true to PnP."

POWERCREEP IS BAD, m´kay

I love the idea of domains. I cannot compare to pnp nor do I really care if it does, I only played D&D and AD&D so being a while (and obviously I am very archaic in my personal views of how D&D works I will admit).

I think clerics is one of the most challenging class to play effectively. It is unique and already has lots of versatility. It has lots of shortcoming too, capstone, self healing and in need of a little dps boost to make it more relevant as people mentioned, agreed. I find the divine discipline tree OK, I personally use it over aura but that is just me. But the Radiant Servant tree is archaic (like me?) and has lost its value in the game and needed a real overhaul. Adding Domains is a nice idea but you did not need the power creep that some of those bring, like air and the necro one. What we do not need is another warlock or another, I AM A FVS; I DO NOT HEAL type of mentality that I have seen so many times.

1. Free sla and dc boost are a little too much imo and I would like to see it tone down in the final version.
2. Some of those domains seemed to be tailored to multi class. When you create a class, the last thing you should have on your mind is LET´S ADD THIS FEATURE CAUSE IT WILL MARRY GREAT WITH THIS OTHER CLASS. Let the players create multi class and ´exploit´ the builds in ways not thought before to achieve a greater result, i see no issue with that but to make them to be better to be multi class is faulty thinking, again imo.
3. Also, adding that many domains at once is too much as they are not balanced, imo.
4. Overhaul of tree would have been better first and domains second.

A for effort and for willingness to work on clerics from the DEVs part, I was not waiting for so many changes tbh but C for implementation if it is implemented as is.

[Lanadazia]

Air Domain

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals


Luck Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to your Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saving throws. This increases by +1 at 6th level, +1 at 12th level, and +1 at 18th level.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to saving throws equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Displacement as an SLA

Level 9: You add +2 to the DC of your spells.

Level 14: You no longer automatically fail your saving throws on a roll of 1.


Protection Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to AC, PRR, and MRR. This increases by +1 at 5th level, 10th level, 15th level, and 20th level.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to PRR and MRR equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain the Shield spell as a permanent effect on you.

Level 9: You gain Radiant Forcefield as an SLA

Level 14: Your Armor Class and Physical Resistance Rating are increased by your Cleric level.


Strength Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Strength and become immune to Strength damage.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Strength equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: Your Reflex saving throws are now based on Strength instead of Dexterity.

Level 9: You become immune to knock down effects

Level 14: You always make your saving throw against Stun effects.

some really exciting stuff for clerics, wow!
on the first look luck and strength domain seem to be pretty overpowered.
protector domain looks interessting.

i really like the concept, that you can now use turn undead, to buff your party. so this will always be useful.

one question on the 'works on elementals': will it work on any kind of elemental? or just the type according to the domain. (= air domain turn undead only works on air elementals, earth domain on earth elementals and so on)
that is a nice little twist that brings more utility to this kinda dead feat.

i was hoping for a pure turn undead domain too.
right now you have to get all the bonuses you can get, like sacred, eternal faith (and a third one i forgot the name of.. hallowed?) and all feats and enhancements, to make turn undead work in lower level elite quests. and ~ on level 14 it becomes totally useless.
i remember my cleric not being able to turn undead efficiently at early levels (what is ok, since he didn't specialized yet)
in necropolis 2 it was totally awesome and i really felt like a turn undead build could work in higher levels. but at level 12+ it became more and more rare, that undead are actually turned or stunned.
one problem here is the incredible high CR on alot of trash mobs. if there are 3 undead with CR 15+ you prolly can only turn one on that level. and CR 30+ in epics are just immune to that stuff, since you cannot reach that much hit-dice-affected.
- so turn undead still is a little nice gimmik for clerics > level 15. and thats kinda sad, since this type of build should have a major focus. it has a high investment to be good ves a tiny part of monsters. alot of this builds power is useless in alot of quests, so it at least should work as intended in higher level quests.
any chance to get there?


even tho i really like the new stuff for clerics, i think with the new domains, espceially the SLA ones, where clerics gain access to arcane spells is... disorting the true cleric experience :x
with reaper healers are more valid again, since self healing is not as effective. but still they're more like a dead weight in epics. (maybe not as much with the new party-turn-undead-buffs)

[Claver]

Here are my thoughts on the Cleric Domains

Overall, I'm very happy to see so many different domains represented. There are enough interesting choices and competing choices to make me want to create a variety of new character types. I very much appreciate the level split of 5/9/14 which still allows 6 levels of splashing for some interesting enhancement builds

Air Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Evocation spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Reflex saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Electric Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Shocking Grasp as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Lightning Bolt as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Chain Lightning as an SLA
Sev~

Is there a simple way Domains could still be given benefit from the level 24 Mastery feats like Master of Air for the appropriate Domain? Perhaps add a benefit ..."If you have the Master of Air feat you gain +10 to your maximum spell level for your Air Domain SLAs.

The bonus to Evocation at level 2 is very strong and would be enough for me to consider splashing 2 levels of cleric into some other Evocation Class build. The problem is Clerics don't really have any lightning spells other than the Domain SLAs. Would there be a reason to stay pure? The Air Adept Sorc Tree give bonuses to Electric AND Sonic spells. Can we also provide Sonic in addition to Electric bonus to the Air Domain to better serve the God of THUNDER AND Lightning. Providing and additional Sonic boost would help with an actual cleric spells Soundburst and perhaps allow for Cleric/Bard builds. I do like the Turn Undead Bonus to Reflex save...that will be very helpful to many parties....although 20 seconds is too short for this and other domains...double it to 40 seconds at least

Animal Domain

Level 5: You gain 10 hit points per Cleric level. You also add 10 hit points for each epic level you have gained.

Level 9: You gain +15% fortification bypass.

Level 14: You gain the Feral Charge ability. Your character to briefly morphs into a bear and charges forward through foes, attacking all foes in the charge area. The attack does weapon damage based on your equipped weapon with a +3(W) bonus, and enemies must make a Reflex saving throw with a DC of 19 + Wisdom modifier + Trip Bonuses or be knocked down. Cooldown is 15 seconds.
Sev~

This is probably my favorite Domain of the lot....I love the flavor of the Feral Charge and was never concerned about the hit point but please, don't go any lower than 300 HP or the Domain will lose much of its appeal

Chaos Domain

You cannot take this domain if you are Lawful.

Level 5: You gain Chaos Hammer as an SLA

Level 9: Your spell critical chance is increased by 3%

Level 14: You gain Prismatic Spray as an SLA
Sev~

Thank you for adding some alignment gating to Chaos and Law Domains...this was needed. The Chaos Domain is missing a little something compared to the other domains. Buff this Domain slightly to make it a more compelling choice.

Since luck no longer has the random spell DC boost could we add @ Level 9 "You gain +1D3 to the DC of your spells and your spell critical chance is increased by +D6%". It would be even more cool to add a small chance to trigger Shirardi effects.

Death Domain
Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Necromancy spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.
Sev~

Fine as is; the bonus to DC coupled with the Divine Disciple tree makes me want to play a Necro Cleric

Destruction Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 Melee and Ranged Power. You gain another point of each at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level Cleric.

You can cast your Cleric spells while raging.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Melee Power and Ranged Power equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: Durability damage for your items is reduced by 75%.

Level 9: You weapons gain +2 to hit and damage.

Level 14: Your weapon strikes add a stack of Improved Destruction.
Sev~

I'm a bit worried about the power level of this Domain....Sure, casting spell while raged is exciting but I fear this will be too unbalancing..particularly with all the healing amp bonuses and abilities the barbarian trees already possess.

You were wise to remove the +[W] weapon modifier

Delete the 75% durability (boring) and move the +2 to hit and damage to level 5. Move the ability to cast spells while raged to the Level 9 ability so that it is not so easy to splash

Or you could take a page from 5th Edition DND Barbarian. Instead of allowing casting while raged, give a bonus to PRR equal to twice your cleric level whenever Raged so long as you are not wearing heavy armor

Earth Domain

Level 14: You gain Earthquake as an SLA. The cooldown for this version is 15 seconds.
Sev~

Earth Domain: My druid evocation specialist spams several quickened earthquakes at the start of a major fight. . I'm not too worried about invalidating Druids by granting the Earth Domain access to a earthquake SLA so long as the listed cool down remains 15 seconds and the SLA CAN NOT BE QUICKENED. Earthquake is a cleric spell in PNP and is appropriate for an earth domain. The Turn Undead bonus to Fort is thematically appropriate but generally not that useful so it helps offset the power of the Earthquake SLA

Fire Domain

Level 5: You gain Scorching Ray as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Wall of Fire as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Firestorm as an SLA
Sev~

Regarding all Elemental Domains...I wish there were some mechanism to provide better synergy with elemental savants. My initial thought is to add an ability to 14th level cleric that give +3 to caster levels when casting spells of that element i.e. a 14 cleric/6 sorcerer Fire Domain would cast sorcerer fire spells at Sorcerer level 12 (6 for Sorcerer level +3 from the Savant Core and +3 from the Cleric Domain Bonus). This would include all the fire SLAs for the fire savant tree (cast at level 12). When the 14 cleric/ 6 sorcerer cast a divine fire based cleric spell he would do so at level 20 (14 for cleric level, + 3 for the Fire Domain and +3 from the Savant Core). This would help offset the loss in power by splashing 6 levels of sorcerer. Provide the same +3 bonus to spell level to the Air, Water and Earth Domain abilities for 14th level. This could make for some very intriguing divine dragon born elemental cleric builds

Good Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Light Spell Power (Radiance) per Cleric Level. You gain +1 to the Heal skill for every 2 Cleric levels.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains temporary hit points equal to five times your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Deific Vengeance as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Blade Barrier as an SLA

Level 14: You gain +3 to hit, damage, and armor class against evil creatures in combat. You gain +3 to saving throws against spells cast by evil creatures.
Sev~

This is another second tier domain that is not quite good enough to be selected over other choices. Making the temporary hit points last 60 seconds instead of 20 seconds would make all the difference in the world

Healing Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Positive Spell Power (Devotion) per Cleric Level

When you use Turn Undead your party gains 20 point of Healing Amplification.

Sev~

Fine as is but is still think 20 seconds is too short for all the cleric turn undead abilities..make it 40 seconds minimum

Knowledge Domain

Level 5: You gain Suggestion as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Feeblemind as an SLA

Level 14: You gain +4 Spell Penetration. You gain +2 to the DC of all spells.
Sev~

This Domain should allow for the creation of the elusive divine arcane build. It doesn't necessarily need to be powerful; only viable. Transfer Suggestion SLA over to trickery. Instead; use Touch of Idiocy a level 5 SLA. At level 9, instead of Feeblemind, use the technology from the Magister ED to add a +5 to Wizard caster level if you have any levels in the Wizard Class. This would allow a level 9 Cleric/ 11 Wizard to cast wizard spells at level 16. This would not be too powerful since you would still be taking a hit to DC and could only cast level 6 Wizard spells and level 5 Cleric spells with a 9 CLR/ 11 Wiz split but it would be thematically appropriate for the Knowledge Domain and provide more character build options (Cleric Vampires for instance)

p.s. Thank you for scaling down the level 14 spell penetration and DC...that was a bit over the top

Law Domain

You cannot take this domain if you are Chaotic.

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Enchantment spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th.

Sev~

Thank you for the alignment gating. The bonus DC to enchantment makes this Domain attractive. I will be making a Zen Archer Arcane Archer Elf Law Domain Cleric at some point in the future

Luck Domain

Level 9: You add +2 to the DC of your spells.

Level 14: You no longer automatically fail your saving throws on a roll of 1.
Sev~

The random D8 to DC was cool but probably over powered. The level 14 saving throw on a 1 is thematically appropriate but I will miss the Miraculous Survival ability...I wish you could find a home for it somewhere...maybe as a high level class ability for Favored Souls since you are talking about changing the base class

Magic Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Evocation spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th level Cleric.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Universal Spell Power equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Chain Missiles as an SLA. (This shares a cooldown with the Archmage SLA.)

Level 9: You gain a number of bonus Spell Points equal to your character level x 10.

Level 14: You gain points of Universal Spell Power equal to your twice your Cleric level.
Sev~

Interesting...but I am not sure I want more universal spell power at level 14 as it intrudes on the nuking space of other classes and domains...particularly since the Domain already provides a bonus to universal spell power in conjunction with Turn Undead. A god of magic should be able to regulate magic of the universe...Provide Mordenkainens Disjunction as a free SLA.

I might choose to splash 2 levels of cleric just to gain the +1 DC bonus to Evocation. You may want to consider adding some level gating to the domains that give bonuses to the DC of Evocation, Enchantment and Necromancy...Maybe no bonus @ level 2, + 1 to DC at level 6, nothing at level 12 and then +2 to DC at level 18 (+3 DC total)

Protection Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to AC, PRR, and MRR. This increases by +1 at 5th level, 10th level, 15th level, and 20th level.

Level 14: Your Armor Class and Physical Resistance Rating are increased by your Cleric level.
Sev~

So does this mean a level 14 cleric gets +14 AC in addition +2 from the 2nd level and 5th level abilities..couple this with the bonus to AC in Warpriest and you could get some formidable AC...particularly if you splash Defender or Tainted Scholar. This Domain has me interested just to see how high I could make my AC.

Strength Domain

Level 2: You gain +2 Strength and become immune to Strength damage.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Strength equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Sev~

Reflex saves based on Strength are very interesting. It will be interesting to see if a kensai dwarf tactics cleric would get enough strength boost to make a stunning build. This will be very interesting if Know the Angels from the Harper Tree will be allowed to stack.

I still wish the Strength Domain gave a bonus to tactics but I agree tactics are in a better place with War domain...which continues to be the default choice for battle clerics. The Strength Domain needs a little something to be compelling choice for melee clerics and not just strength based monks.

Remove the +2 strength at 2nd level (too easy to splash)

Instead, add a +2 bonus to strength at level 5, level 10, level 15 and level 20 (+8 total) to better reward staying pure and motivating design of new archetypes

Sun Domain
When you use Turn Undead you and your allies gain True Sight. in addition, for 20 seconds enemies in the radius of the Turn Undead have their incorporeal miss chance negated and will be inflicted with 10% vulnerability to Light damage.
Sev~

I'm currently playing a light based nuking Divine Disciple sun elf that needs desperate help with damage at higher epic difficulties. The 10% vulnerability is a good start but almost all light spells are ranged ray attacks whereas the turn undead ability only effects monsters in melee combat.

Unless DD is getting a change we need something more in Sun Domain...At level 14, I would rather see a +20% stacking bonus to critical from light spells .

Trickery Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 to the DC of your Enchantment spells. This increases by +1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th.

When you use Turn Undead your party gains points of Charisma equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Invisibility as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Mind Fog as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Charm Monster, Mass as an SLA
Sev~

[QUOTE=Severlin;6004681]

Clerics don't have illusion spells but thats no reason not to support Gnome/Deep Gnome clerics to the god of Trickery. In addition to adding +1 to Enchantment DCs also add +1 to Illusion DCs @ level 2/6/12 and 18 to help with the the racial SLAs of gnomes. Instead of Invisibility gran Suggestion as the level 5 SLA. At level 9, grant +9 to bluff skill in addition to the Mind Fog SLA

My guess is you are reusing the same Domain template to reduce coding time. If it is too difficult to add progressive bonus of +1 to both enchantment and illusion DC at various levels then simply tack on a level 14 ability (+3 to illusion DC) along with the Charm Monster ability

War Domain
Sev~

Removing the change in base weapon damage die was a good call otherwise, you would have been prevented from designing reading interesting small weapons like daggers in the future that are balanced by the lower damage die of those weapon types

Water Domain

Level 2: You gain Water Breathing. You gain +1 to Swimming and +2 Cold Spell Power (Glaciation) per Cleric level.

Your cold spells will use Positive Spell Power if it is higher.

Your healing spells will use Cold Spell Power if it is higher.

Your Turn Undead works on Elementals

When you use Turn Undead your party gains a bonus to Will saving throws equal to half you Cleric level, and points of Cold Resistance equal to twice your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain Solid Fog as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Cone of Cold as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Greater Creeping Cold as an SLA

Sev~

Water domain needs some love. Clerics don't have cold spells and its a stretch to say they have any real water spells (obscuring mist). Replace solid fog at level 5 with creeping cold. Remove greater creeping cold @ level 14 and replace it with a stacking bonus to dodge equal to half your cleric levels. This would open up some potential build options for clonks and swashbuckler clerics in a world soon to be dominated by heavy armor battle clerics. The bonus to will save as a turn undead party buff will be very desirable.

As it is now, Water Domain is the least desirable Domain presented. Adding a dodge bonus will at least allow for some niche builds that differ from the other domains

[Enoach]

Here are my thoughts on the Cleric Domains

...
Water domain needs some love. Clerics don't have cold spells and its a stretch to say they have any real water spells (obscuring mist). Replace solid fog at level 5 with creeping cold. Remove greater creeping cold @ level 14 and replace it with a stacking bonus to dodge equal to half your cleric levels. This would open up some potential build options for clonks and swashbuckler clerics in a world soon to be dominated by heavy armor battle clerics. The bonus to will save as a turn undead party buff will be very desirable.

As it is now, Water Domain is the least desirable Domain presented. Adding a dodge bonus will at least allow for some niche builds that differ from the other domains

Umm, clerics don't have Acid, Lightning (short of Half-Elf Dragonmark), or Cold spells. However, these also align themselves well with being Dragonborn or opening other options but fire in the Epic Draconic Tree.

As for Solid fog, you are missing it's valuable features. 1) -25% speed 2) -5 Reflex Save. I bet you can think of at least one cleric spell where a +5 DC as well as slowing of mobs would benefit a cleric. As well as a few other spells where that DC boost would help.

Personally I like that they give a variety of spells that could help different styles of play and not just DPS.

[elvesunited]

--- Summary of my thoughts ---

The domains should sync up with a "master of " feat later if at all possible. Either by changing the feat so it encompasses the lower level spells of the domain. Or changing the domain so the spells match the feat.

At level 2, when dealing with a spell casting domain type should give a first level spell at level 2. Fire can get burning hands. Air can get shocking grasp. Magic could get magic missile. Sun could get nimbus of light. Trickery could get charm person. etc.

I'd really like to see level 20 domain abilities for pure clerics. After all domains in PnP do give level 9 spells. Water could give water form similar to water savant. Luck could give that save from death ability that was originally slated for it. War could get its base damage increase at level 20.

DC increases should be avoided. If DDO has a problem at this point with monster saves being too high then the problem is with the monsters and not the player casters.

[Katanauser]

No, just No. If I want to play a caster (wiz/sorc/ warlock) I'd play a caster. Not the kind of help I wanted for cleric class. 1) increase mana, 2) more effective cc and smite, 3) more dv's/burst. Quit messing with classes and work on CONTENT and reliability. Every time you "fix" you also break stuff. Last build (36) I found VERY disappointing.

[Grace_ana]

stuff

You are missing - I suspect deliberately - the massive, glaring point that the classes were build and balanced initially WITHOUT domains. So while the domains are pnp, and we should have them, they shouldn't have the same amount of power they give in pnp. In pnp, the classes are balanced WITH the domains in play (as well as a vengeful DM that can turn things on a dime if needed).

So what you have is a class that is currently a few steps (not miles) behind the other classes, particularly when it comes to melee. If you tack on - for free - the amount of power in the pnp domains, you have a completely unbalanced class.

So yeah, we're going to yell about "a few DCs," because it matters in the scope of the game.

[SpartanKiller13]

Some of these look interesting and fun. Overall, I don't hate what I'm seeing.

One concern I have is the War domain. I dig "proficient with all weapon types" in a vacuum, but that doesn't synergize at all with deity feats, which grant proficiency for favored weapons, and the Warpriest tree which boosts damage with favored weapons.

Instead of proficiency with all weapons, how about the level 2 (or whatever) War domain feat is a selector where you choose your favored weapon. That way you still get proficiency with any (one) weapon, and you also get to use the deity feats and warpriest enhancements.

In fact, I might change the "+1 damage at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th" to "choose an additional favored weapon at 6th, 12th and 18th." Or something. (You only "need" 1 favored weapon, but three has value: Standard weapons (slashing), ooze/constructs (bludgeon) and a thrower for situational use. So like falchion, maul, and throwing axe or khopesh, warhammer and throwing axe.)

I'm with you here. Except I think "Proficiency with all weapon types" kinda sucks. Especially since there's a scroll that covers half of these with just a little UMD anyway...

I'd be 100% behind a selector to choose your favored weapon, that would be a huge buff to Warpriest investment if you're in the War domain. If you could choose any (or nearly any) religion as any race this wouldn't be as much of an issue, but currently it's mostly Silvanus and Lord of Blades that have an excellent weapon choice outside of very specific builds. Three favored weapons would be nice, but I'd be quite happy with one that I could choose.

Holy sword is extraordinarily weak if your trees limit you to favored weapons like wp does now, with the possible exception of Silvanus and possibly helm, which require you to be iconic. We need additional deities and fws if melee clerics are going to be a thing outside Iconics, and for HS to be worthwhile, WP will need to offer enough to make it a viable alternative to taking kensai and monk splits. Right now it does not, in fact it is nowhere near with current weapon choices. I am prepared to have my hopes dashed, but building a non-iconic wp would be fun, but with the current weapon selection its a nonstarter.

Holy Sword is still strong, it's just not competitive with the alternatives. 14 Cleric gets you HS and what else? 15 Pally gets you all of that +Zeal, defender stance, and you have LoH to cover your lack of the actual Heal spell and some awesome trees vs the fairly awkward Warpriest. If EllisDee's option (above) was chosen it could be viable, but otherwise not so much.

This is a large concern for me as well. I find weapon proficiency pretty useless if it doesn't work with any of your other enhancements, except as a easy way to dip for other classes and builds. To be honest, I really don't care for most of the things granted by the War Domain. A Bonus to Tactical Feats. meh. Does the Divine Bonus to Melee/Ranged Power stack with the Action Boost one? 20 Seconds (for this one really only) just seems too short to really matter except as a party boost, which is probably not what this is going to be used for. Feels kind of meh, at least "on paper". Does it really matter that Holy Sword is a SLA? As opposed to just adding the spell, I guess.

So, to me, and I could be wrong, for a "war Cleric", the War Domain seems like a straight downgrade most of the time if not using Favored Weapon, and only a very minor, very late level boost that's likely not worth it to those that do focus on Favored Weapon, (as it currently works). Am I wrong here?

My view is that I can always dip Fighter 2 for weapon proficiencies, and then I get a cool bonus feat and the awesome Haste boost. 3+ for defender stances as well. All assuming I can't just scroll cast Master's Touch.

Even if the bonus to MP/RP stacks, it's not enough to be a gamechanger. +10 MP at level 20? Nice, but not worth the investment IMO. Grab Fighter 5 Monk 6 instead and get +50 MP...

I think the point of the current iteration of War Domain is to exclusively use it on Favored Weapon. Silvanus = ok, Lord of Blades = ok except reaper and self-healing hurts so not very ok. Yeah, it kinda sucks.

[glmfw1]

One of the points of the Domains in PnP D&D was that they were restricted in availability based on the God that you worshipped.
A God's portfolio could be quite broad (someone with only a partial interest in War might offer the War Domain among others), but there was common sense involved (A LN God of Guardians would not offer Chaos or Destruction among others).
In order to ensure that Domain implementation makes some sort of sense, can the Domains please be implemented and restricted based on Deity choice (and his/her portfolio) and Character Alignment, rather than being a random free-for-all, thereby preventing Domain/Deity/Alignment/Multi-Class combinations that might result in uber-power, but would have any sane Deity saying "no way am I going to let you do that!"?
This may already be the Devs intention, but it's not mentioned in the listing of Domains at the start of the post.

[DarthBeckett]

I think the point of the current iteration of War Domain is to exclusively use it on Favored Weapon. Silvanus = ok, Lord of Blades = ok except reaper and self-healing hurts so not very ok. Yeah, it kinda sucks.

I have a Cleric that goes Longsword and another that goes Longbow, and I really enjoy both. Neither are straight Warpriest, but I still have fun, and Warpriest helps keep the Silvee Bow and Nightforge Avenger relavent a bit longer. It sucks not being able to Smite with a bow, particularly for the healing burst, but there are some tradeoffs that make it worth it and fun.

One of my early characters went Bastard Sword before the Warpriest existed, and it would be nice to have a way to convert him to Helm. Right now he is just too far out of date to really be worth trying to salvage at level 15 or so with 0 Heal or Spellcraft ranks.

[dunklezhan]

One of the points of the Domains in PnP D&D was that they were restricted in availability based on the God that you worshipped.
A God's portfolio could be quite broad (someone with only a partial interest in War might offer the War Domain among others), but there was common sense involved (A LN God of Guardians would not offer Chaos or Destruction among others).
In order to ensure that Domain implementation makes some sort of sense, can the Domains please be implemented and restricted based on Deity choice (and his/her portfolio) and Character Alignment, rather than being a random free-for-all, thereby preventing Domain/Deity/Alignment/Multi-Class combinations that might result in uber-power, but would have any sane Deity saying "no way am I going to let you do that!"?
This may already be the Devs intention, but it's not mentioned in the listing of Domains at the start of the post.

/signed +1

[Qezuzu]

You are missing - I suspect deliberately - the massive, glaring point that the classes were build and balanced initially WITHOUT domains. So while the domains are pnp, and we should have them, they shouldn't have the same amount of power they give in pnp. In pnp, the classes are balanced WITH the domains in play (as well as a vengeful DM that can turn things on a dime if needed).

So what you have is a class that is currently a few steps (not miles) behind the other classes, particularly when it comes to melee. If you tack on - for free - the amount of power in the pnp domains, you have a completely unbalanced class.

So yeah, we're going to yell about "a few DCs," because it matters in the scope of the game.

I'm having a hard time understanding how what you're saying addresses what I said. If there's anything that bothers me it's people claiming I deliberately omitted something while seeming to not even comprehend what I wrote.

I'm very much saying that PnP domains are too strong for DDO, and this is because of their spells. Adding Wail of the Banshee is absolutely TONS more power than +4 necro DCs. That's my issue with SirValentine's posts: he seems to want stronger domains (more spells and ability to pick 2 domains) but also thinks some stat bonuses.are "power creep."

[DarthBeckett]

One of the points of the Domains in PnP D&D was that they were restricted in availability based on the God that you worshipped.
A God's portfolio could be quite broad (someone with only a partial interest in War might offer the War Domain among others), but there was common sense involved (A LN God of Guardians would not offer Chaos or Destruction among others).
In order to ensure that Domain implementation makes some sort of sense, can the Domains please be implemented and restricted based on Deity choice (and his/her portfolio) and Character Alignment, rather than being a random free-for-all, thereby preventing Domain/Deity/Alignment/Multi-Class combinations that might result in uber-power, but would have any sane Deity saying "no way am I going to let you do that!"?
This may already be the Devs intention, but it's not mentioned in the listing of Domains at the start of the post.

However, one of the big defining tjings about Eberron was that this was not true. Sort of. The deities did offer specific Domains, but not all Clerics had to choose them, nor even share their Alignment. It was purposefully a bit blurry, because with the exception of the Silver Flame and Vol, deities did not get involved, and may not even exist.

[SisAmethyst]

War Domain

Level 2: You gain +1 Damage with melee and ranged weapons. This increases at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th. When you use Turn Undead your party gains a Divine bonus to Melee Power and Ranged Power equal to half your Cleric level for 20 seconds

Level 5: You gain proficiency in all martial and exotic weapons.

Level 9: Your tactical DCs are increased by half your Cleric level.

Level 14: You gain Holy Sword as an SLA.

After reading and thinking about all the feedback on the war domain:

...Likewise, I do not see most Warpriests carrying much or at all about a bonus to Tactical Feats. Maybe instead give them free Improved Trip/Sunder Feats, or some sort of Ranged Feat instead? Again, could be wrong, it just seems like an ability that's basically not worth anything...

...With the tactical DC ( guess increased base damage was too easy to abuse ) that would probably make this the choice for cleric fighters multibuilds. But unless the warpriest pass is shockingly good, they'll probably avoid the holy sword SLA. After all kensei gives you increased threat range and multiplier without the spell...

-----------------------------------------
12 Cleric - 8 Fighter ( war Domain )

That's +4 Damage, +6 Tactical DC, exotic weapon usage, and all the fighter levels you need so you could get all tier 5 Kensei enhancements and some additional power from stalwart. ( and who knows, maybe a few points in warpriest )...

I'm not really sure what the trap is here? Exotic weapon proficiency aside (I think this is being totally overblown, its not like people particularly need multiple weapon proficiencies anyway, this saves one feat), Holy Sword is a great spell and it allows the cleric to take lighter splashes while still retaining near full spell progression AND expanded crit range. I realize that 6 fighter is a perfectly valid dip, but Holy Sword saves you the trouble, and lets you dip say, 4 levels of pally instead for the extra saves and sacred defender. I'm not really sure what your PnP reference has to do with anything, DDO doesnt really have anything resembling full round actions, unless we're talking in terms of cast speed like the disco ball or summon monster.

I'm with you here. Except I think "Proficiency with all weapon types" kinda sucks. Especially since there's a scroll that covers half of these with just a little UMD anyway...

I'd be 100% behind a selector to choose your favored weapon, that would be a huge buff to Warpriest investment if you're in the War domain. If you could choose any (or nearly any) religion as any race this wouldn't be as much of an issue, but currently it's mostly Silvanus and Lord of Blades that have an excellent weapon choice outside of very specific builds. Three favored weapons would be nice, but I'd be quite happy with one that I could choose.

...

My view is that I can always dip Fighter 2 for weapon proficiencies, and then I get a cool bonus feat and the awesome Haste boost. 3+ for defender stances as well. All assuming I can't just scroll cast Master's Touch.

Even if the bonus to MP/RP stacks, it's not enough to be a gamechanger. +10 MP at level 20? Nice, but not worth the investment IMO. Grab Fighter 5 Monk 6 instead and get +50 MP...

I think the point of the current iteration of War Domain is to exclusively use it on Favored Weapon. Silvanus = ok, Lord of Blades = ok except reaper and self-healing hurts so not very ok. Yeah, it kinda sucks.

I think this domain could use some changes.

The martial proficiency is indeed more or less useless wash for a pure Cleric (which probably can UMD it anyway), which is bound to its favored weapon and the exotic one ask too much after a splash. While a Paladin, Barb or Fighter need a feat to get exotic weapon proficiency it just strikes me that Clerics would get it for free without being actually able to make use of it unless they multiclass. For me the domains should focus on helping the Cleric itself firstly, that there are some gimmicks that may be interesting for some multiclassing should just be secondary and icing on the top. If we then anyway have to multiclass, holy sword indeed isn't much of a bonus in the end either, considering the Cleric for example only has 0.75 BAB per level without Divine Power, less hit points and less feats to burn. Overall the spell is probably better suited as an AP investment in the warpriest tree.

Same with the tactical feats that sound nice on paper but I fear unless one multiclasses most likely not work out as good neither as even a warpriest can't sacrifice too much gear slots dedicated to boost the tactical DCs (e.g. STR modifier on trip and casting gear).

So I was looking how other games actually doing with the war domain, and NWN-2 for example provide:
* Weapon Focus in their patron deity's favored weapon
* Spells: Flame Strike, Power Word - Stun

So if you would instead give out Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus it would actually help your favored weapon without the need to dip into things like martial weapon proficiency. That however may indeed clash a bit with the level 2 feat of the War domain.
By the way NWN-2 indeed also provide weapon proficiency but is limited as:
* War domain clerics are proficient with all martial weapons if their deity's favored weapon is a martial weapon.
* Similarly, if the deity's favored weapon is an exotic weapon, the cleric will be proficient with all exotic weapons.

NWN on the other hand provide:
* Battle Mastery - The cleric gains a bonus of 1 + 1 per 5 cleric levels to dexterity, constitution, attack rolls and damage. As well, the cleric receives double this value as damage reduction. The effect will last for 5 rounds + charisma modifier.
* Spells: Cat's grace, Aura of Vitality

While the Battle Mastery spell doesn't really translate to DDO a DR or PRR would be indeed a viable option for a warpriest too.

TOEE provide weapon proficiency and weapon focus as well as following War domain spells (that would translate in DDO roughly to a SLA):
1. Magic Weapon (essentially Art: Enchant Weapons)
2. Spiritual Weapon (Automatic fighting ghost touch weapon)
3. Magic Vestment (form of Art: Enchant Armor)
4. Divine Power
5. Flame Strike

The Magic Weapon is essentially the Holy Sword option except of the crit. range and multiplier (considering that TOEE is round based and DDO already has a different power level)