Early Look - Cleric Domains

[geoffhanna]

So these are free? Clerics get them at level 2 without using a feat slot or anything?

Nice

[HuneyMunster]

So these are free? Clerics get them at level 2 without using a feat slot or anything?

Nice

good point. what happens to cleric that have x number of level? do the get free respect to be able to pick up the feats of their choice? Maybe a lesser wood?

[Celender]

The overall idea of domains is great but some bonuses and SLA are just insane and not clerical at all.

Turning animal and elementals doesn't make sense at all for a divine caster. Druids/Ranger who are much more in tune with nature (animals and elements) need to waste spell slots to daze, charm or hold animals, i know thay can use wild empathy but it has a long cooldown (60 secs) and few uses per rest and affects only 1 animal at a time. Clerics will have the chance to be able to do turn animal or elemental, with lower cooldown, using more times per rest and with aoe...too muhc imho.

Earthquake and chain missile to Clerics? No way. Classes supposed to have some unique features no other can have it: Fusilade, 1000 star, evasion, class specific feats, unique spells, etc. Keep earthquake unique to Druids and Chain missile to sorc/wiz please!

No fail saves at lvl 14...Insane!

Strenght to reflex!? Use it for fortitude and I will give thumbs up, but for Reflex is laughable!

Swaping spell power to use the higher one...is better to give a straight out bonus to spell power then to come up with those crazy ideas!

Going in the same direction we should have a Shadow Domain where they can use turn undead to disable traps and pick lock in the area or a Shaolin Domain where they can use unarmed strikes like a monk...LOL!

[Qezuzu]

No fail saves at lvl 14...Insane!

It's no automatic fail on a 1.

Swaping spell power to use the higher one...is better to give a straight out bonus to spell power then to come up with those crazy ideas!

I personally like this bonus, makes gearing easier.

[azrael4h]

Sun domain grants a redundant Searing Light SLA with Divine Disciple's Searing Light SLA. Will these share a cool down?

On that line, a T5 Disciple will have 4 SLAs from their PrE, plus up to 3 from one of several Domains. Compare this to Sorcerer, who will have at most 5 SLA from their PrEs (3 per Savant line, but one is a T5 so only one can be taken). So a Cleric going T5 Disciple can have 6 or 7 SLAs, with plenty of AP left over to pick up at least RS's burst. Even a T5 RS will have 6 SLAs, and with something like Sun Domain, where the spells are all light damage and very rarely resisted, that turns Clerics into a nuking machine.

[cru121]

So, this looks pretty much identical to the same proposal you already gave us an early look at earlier.

Too much uncalled for vertical power creep, and very little of what domains should be providing, more options.

Huge DC/saving-throw/etc. boosts.
Only 1 domain instead of 2. No spellbook diversity added.
Turning Turn Undead into an action boost.



So you're saying it's a done deal, then?

There's a big boost for the FotM players to swap to Cleric until the next FotM comes along, and a big FU to longtime Cleric players.

Well, now I don't have to have any debate about whether to buy Ravenloft, or anything else from SSG.

Repeatedly destroying any chance of an endgame and turning everything into endless TR grinds drove me to the edge. Destroying my character's class is the last straw.

Somebody call me if there's ever a major change in direction and they decide to stop taking out "Dungeons and Dragons" out of so-called "Dungeons and Dragons Online".

So. Let me get this straight. You are the person who robbed us of the suggested Turn Undead overhaul in the previous preview thread with your complaints. And now you are raging again. Well, what can I say. Wish you quit half year ago, we'd have a shiny new turn undead nuke. Meh.

As you might have noticed, DDO is not your rigid core-only PnP session. Deal with it.

[Grace_ana]

When the domain states that elementals can be turned, is that any elemental or only the kind that corresponds to the domain? i.e. does the earth domain only turn earth eles or any ele?

[Fnordian]

~ The basic mechanics for Turn Undead isn't changing.
Sev~

How about including a free stance toggle for all clerics, either from level 1 or possibly only at attaining level 20.

Default setting (toggled off) is the current way it works with a chance to destroy outright.
Toggled on, it would instead do damage with no chance to destroy outright.

[cru121]

Sun domain grants a redundant Searing Light SLA with Divine Disciple's Searing Light SLA. Will these share a cool down?

On that line, a T5 Disciple will have 4 SLAs from their PrE, plus up to 3 from one of several Domains. Compare this to Sorcerer, who will have at most 5 SLA from their PrEs (3 per Savant line, but one is a T5 so only one can be taken). So a Cleric going T5 Disciple can have 6 or 7 SLAs, with plenty of AP left over to pick up at least RS's burst. Even a T5 RS will have 6 SLAs, and with something like Sun Domain, where the spells are all light damage and very rarely resisted, that turns Clerics into a nuking machine.

In theory, yes.
1) Most of the cleric SLAs are single target.
2) At higher levels, sorcerers have nice flashy high level spells and the spell pool to spam them. They don't need those SLAs.

I don't care if clerics have cheap tickling SLAs, at least they'll have mana left to hjeal meh!

[Don1966]

Earthquake and chain missile to Clerics? No way. Classes supposed to have some unique features no other can have it: Fusilade, 1000 star, evasion, class specific feats, unique spells, etc. Keep earthquake unique to Druids and Chain missile to sorc/wiz please!

3.5 rules as well as 5e rules list earthquake as a level 8 cleric spell.

[Pyed-Pyper]

The overall idea of domains is great but some bonuses and SLA are just insane and not clerical at all.

Turning animal and elementals doesn't make sense at all for a divine caster. Druids/Ranger who are much more in tune with nature (animals and elements) need to waste spell slots to daze, charm or hold animals, i know thay can use wild empathy but it has a long cooldown (60 secs) and few uses per rest and affects only 1 animal at a time. Clerics will have the chance to be able to do turn animal or elemental, with lower cooldown, using more times per rest and with aoe...too muhc imho.

Earthquake and chain missile to Clerics? No way. Classes supposed to have some unique features no other can have it: Fusilade, 1000 star, evasion, class specific feats, unique spells, etc. Keep earthquake unique to Druids and Chain missile to sorc/wiz please!

No fail saves at lvl 14...Insane!

Strenght to reflex!? Use it for fortitude and I will give thumbs up, but for Reflex is laughable!

Swaping spell power to use the higher one...is better to give a straight out bonus to spell power then to come up with those crazy ideas!

Going in the same direction we should have a Shadow Domain where they can use turn undead to disable traps and pick lock in the area or a Shaolin Domain where they can use unarmed strikes like a monk...LOL!

Well, technically, "earthquake" is a divine spell but otherwise generally agree.

----

Converting TU into not-TU - bad idea.

Homogenization - bad idea.

OTOH, since Cleric is getting arcane spells, will an upcoming pass will grant Mass Heal to the Archmage tree, or Dimension Door to the Vanguard tree? Just drop all the trees into a bass-o-matic, puree to a uniform sickly grey, then pour into classes. Should work out great!

[Vish]

Well,
Something is there where it wasn't before
Will buff up clerics for free

Question is,
Do we get free lesser heart?

I will need to reroll after this,
Considering 14 for best splash

And,
Does holy sword
Work with wraps?

Disappointed in war domain
Glad to see earthquake
Think animal needs more hp

But like I said in fvs,
What about warpriest?
Will need to see this to know
If its worth it

[cru121]

I see a lot of people (probably without PnP background) worried about these abilities are too un-clerical for their taste.

For your reference, here's an overview of cleric domains in PnP.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm

Yes, elemental domains allow clerics to turn or destroy selected elementals.
Yes, Air domain grants access to Chain Lightning.
Yes, Earthquake is a normal cleric spell in PnP, additionally some domains grant it in domain slot.

That's the whole idea of domains. Gain abilities out of scope of archetypal clerics.

[Niminae]

Level 5: You gain Shocking Grasp as an SLA

Level 9: You gain Lightning Bolt as an SLA

Level 14: You gain Chain Lightning as an SLA

Etc.

If you want to preview the Domains with the players, you need to provide more detail. While most SLAs in the game are trivially cheap (as in typically 3-6 mana) with regards to mana cost, not all are (See: Exalted Angel's Mass Cure Moderate Wounds which costs 35 mana). And the cool down can also make or break the usability of a SLA.

Please provide mana cost and cool down figures for all SLAs referenced in the Domains. You did so with regards to Earthquake:

Level 14: You gain Earthquake as an SLA. The cooldown for this version is 15 seconds.

So obviously the cooldown is something you are aware of being a gating factor for the usability of a SLA. Don't stop with Earthquake, all of the other SLAs referenced are very dependent upon mana cost and cooldown for their usefulness. Without any figures from the dev team the players are more than likely going to assume that the mana cost is going to be trivial and the cooldown is going to be short enough to be useful. And that assumption can be horribly wrong if the cost is not trivial or the cooldown is lengthy. So don't keep these vital details to yourselves, because they matter just as much as the name of the ability when it comes down to determining if an ability is useful or not.

For example:

Level 9: You gain Radiant Forcefield as an SLA

This SLA is either junk or a godsend depending on the cooldown. Withholding that detail makes the entire "Early Look" less useful.

[PNP]

I have always loved clerics and they have always been a little underpowered versus other characters which was fine since they were healers and a healer is a special thing in D&D. A pass was/is needed and it is good to see them been actualized in today´s game situation.

I really liked the idea of the domains but I am a little apprehensive as to how powerful some of those are.

My first beef. It seems clerics peak at 15. The incentive to go higher is minimal (in some domains you do get some benefit at 18 but little compared to what you already git imo). A 20 cleric is almost a flavor build nowadays. What I wanted to see is more reasons to go to 20 rather than multiclass.

The other things that bugs me is that there are no caveat, in the last few years, it has just been a power race, with some nerfs to appease the masses, but you gain power for free, effortlessly. For me, when you chose domain you should lose something, a trade-off sort of deal. Right now, I look at this and I think, **** if I could only take 2 domains or can I do a cleric 14 / cleric 6 build... Sorc when they choose a tree get nerf on the opposite tree, but here, all good, we get everything for free and we can complain it is not enough... I foresee lots of ubber clerics playing and they will mostly solo...

Clerics have one of the most unique spell list in all DDO as it is, they can heal and CC effectively and now, they will dps pretty well too, so what does that leave us? A bunch of 15 cleric / 5 pally better tank than pure pally or fighter, maybe a 15 cleric / 5 sorc or 5 WIZ shiradi build that can wipe mob and heal parties which will be useless since he can solo his way through DDO... I always thought of a cleric as a supportive role, one that can heal, buff, etc. but if they can insta kill better than casters, nuke pretty well, on top of it, I am afraid we are losing our clerics here rather than gaining them...

I just want clerics to be more relevant, I think the idea showed here is great but I am worried we are creating new ubber toons.

On the positive side, it will make my gear easy to get to do the rest of my racial PL, all clerics and change domain for each life for something new...

[Faltout]

The buffs granted by turn undead need to be either toned down or be removed.
Most domains also don't mention the kind of bonus they provide. Is it a stacking-with-all bonus or a resistance bonus. And they also don't mention whether a line of sight or a radius of effect is required.
As mentioned above, you need to have in mind that a cleric at high levels has 20+ turns. Which means 400 seconds of up-time. Which means at least 6 minutes of bonuses between shrines. Many quests don't take that much time to present you the next shrine. However, since those need to be refreshed every 20 seconds, most players don't play "optimally". Players save charges for "times of need" or they forget to refresh leading to a general perception that such abilities (not always-on abilities) are useless.
My conclusion is that bonuses need to be less, but the duration longer.

The other bonuses are good enough, although a bit above normal. As mentioned above, clerics shouldn't have more necro DC than a pale master.

[ForgettableNPC]

No Evil Domain?

[ForgettableNPC]

Sun domain grants a redundant Searing Light SLA with Divine Disciple's Searing Light SLA. Will these share a cool down?

On that line, a T5 Disciple will have 4 SLAs from their PrE, plus up to 3 from one of several Domains. Compare this to Sorcerer, who will have at most 5 SLA from their PrEs (3 per Savant line, but one is a T5 so only one can be taken). So a Cleric going T5 Disciple can have 6 or 7 SLAs, with plenty of AP left over to pick up at least RS's burst. Even a T5 RS will have 6 SLAs, and with something like Sun Domain, where the spells are all light damage and very rarely resisted, that turns Clerics into a nuking machine.

Are they SLAs? I thought the spells gained from Divine Disciple cores were just additional spells that appear on your spell list.

[dunklezhan]

Well I kinda like 'em. I like the number of choices on offer for sure.

Kinda feels like it needs a L18 or 20 benefit though, frankly just because its DnD. Possibly therefore have to ramp down some of the other benefits earlier on.

[SirValentine]

So. Let me get this straight. You are the person who robbed us of the suggested Turn Undead overhaul in the previous preview thread with your complaints.

I don't know what you're talking about, since I'm one of the ones who've been saying for years Turn Undead needed help. They said they canned it because of the people saying it worked great at high levels, which sure wasn't me.

Though I'm glad that horrible Turn proposal died, if anyone "robbed" you, it was the devs and whoever told them all is well with Turn at high levels right now, not someone they've ignored on the matter in that thread and for years.

As you might have noticed, DDO is not your rigid core-only PnP session. Deal with it.

Oh, I certainly am.