Early Look - Favored Soul Improvements

[SeveredSteel]

And it's giving up a little bit of damage at most for a ton of survivability. You're losing some BAB, which will affect your damage, but remember that you're primarily using the AA tree (so dps stuff there), or the monk/kensai trees (melee power, crit bonuses, etc.). Plus lots of leftover points to put wherever you need them for dps. It's not much of a loss, and toons that survive better do more dps.

8/6/6 is a better dps build than 12+. Advantage of 12FvS is heal spell. You will not b DC'ing with 12 FvS levels. Loss of DC boosting feats or loss of DPS feats. There is no in-between for DC builds. Then gear slots, where ais it going to slot LGS, Enchantment, insightful enchantment, quality enchantment, quality spell focus, artifact Spell focus, profane dc, melee power, accuracy, deadly, insightful MP, acc, dead. Doublestrike, and ghostly? These hybrids will be ~15 dc below a dedicated DC build, good luck landing spells. Are these hybrids going to rely on DC feats wiz life, SF/GSF/Heighten or will they lean on DPS feats like Cleave/G.Cleave, Im[ Crit, Melee power 2%, tactics, weapon fighting lines? This is just heroic feats. Then we have the AP. AP for dps builds does not coincide with DC builds. Kensei and Monk high tiers couple with what DC boosts, which DC feats?

There are already current options to build hybrid builds on live right now using Harper or PDK. Warlock, Sorc, Bard and Wizard. They're all lower tier. The singular advantage of the fvs hybrid is maul of silv. And Heal spell if your hybrid wasn't arcane robot. In any and all cases it's going to not be top tier melee/ranged and at best will not be 2nd tier DC.

[Silverleafeon]

As an alternative to boosting Child, Favored, Beloved:

If the Devs are looking for ways to distinguish Favored Souls & Sorcerers from Clerics & Wizards, and realize
that the current spell point calculations are arbitrary abstract conversions of spell slots, then you could take this route:


~ At level one , Favored Souls & Sorcerers gain the following bonus:
Fury of the Self Taught (replace with whatever cool name you desire) feat
• You gain 20 spell points per Favored Soul/Sorcerer level. You also gain 30 Spell Points for each epic level you have gained.


Changing the math as you please, one could easily drop the numbers to 10ish ect...

One could also remove the spell cost penalty in the Sorcerer capstone, add more epic destiny points for everyone to spend in the expansion, and via la Sorcerers...
looking pretty till their pass.....

I remain the same opinion about the other changes, and am just offering another alternative to the level six feature.

[Silverleafeon]

The reason the don't put these in ED, is because then everyone is able to twist it in, and again, they won't it to be a FVS ability, and ONLY fvs. This would just mean a SP boosts to all casters, assuming most casters twist in the already cheap ability, being tier 1.

Its a good point, and just the same Warpriest is a tree for two classes, therefore its not easy to slip better favored weapon for favored soul
options into this tree because both classes get the same tree.

Notice the wording Favored is both a class name and a weapon name.
Favored Souls should have better favored weapons than Clerics.

There is the Child, Favored, Beloved feats...which are autogranted to Favored Souls,
however the feat is also available to Clerics and Pally.

So again, the Half level = Favored Soul class = bonus granted mechanic does not work therein on the Child/Favored/Beloved feat line or on the Warpriest line.

There is also the rumored new independent knife tree from the upcoming expansion which was rumored? to have wis to damage?
Available to all for action points?

Of course this leaves Favored Souls who now can use Cha for casting out in the cold...especially if they are just using weapons for auxiary dps.

[Grace_ana]

Some are, unfortunately.

I guarantee no one is playing that build. No one.

Want to guess how I know?

[slarden]

And you are missing that it won't have the crit profile or the raw damage or ranged power numbers to make it all that powerful. Bows aren't great dps anyways due to the slow rof and low base damage. This build will still lag behind the best shuri builds and Xbox builds today. It will have strong cc strong self heals and average dps. It will be a good build. But not the best. Not even close. If this build was that omg awesome people would be doing it today. The only difference when you have to use dex for to hit and damage is some gear slots and a loss of about 10 damage per hit. You can get your to hit high enough with dex around 60 and accuracy items and enhancements tho that to hit isn't a problem. So all this change does is make gearing easier and adds a little damage. But not enough to match the other ranged builds

It's not really something possible today because zen archery only helps with attack and not damage.

It's premature to make final assessments when it's only theory-crafting at this point. It's kind of a nice nitch for favored soul to have wisdom to hit/damage, 10k stars, spellcasting all on the same stat and where being centered in ocean stance makes total sense. It will make a nice centered divine warrior that has burst ranged dps, cc, healing all in one. Not the best at any one thing but effective at all. There are a alot of bows that can help with crits - some easy to find - some hard including sapphire sting, silver bow, unwavering ardency, bow of sinew, epic thornlord, pinion and epic sapphire sting. Divine Crusader is the most thematic and interesting destiny choice, but there are several that would work and some would probably be less thematic but better. Divine Crusader does have +1 crit range and shadow arrows has +1 crit multiplier making epic sapphire sting 16-20 x 4 before counting epic feats. The 10k stars ranged power boost for 60 seconds out of 2 minutes definitely does not suck.

The best build in the game is the build a person has the most fun playing. I expect this to be a build that people will like because of all the utility and versatility. Having everything based on wisdom is what makes it feasible to gear well for both ranged dps and spell casting. Looking forward to trying it and not even a little worried where it stacks up on the power charts. It should be a solid build for soloing reaper or joining a party and it doesn't matter to me how fast it does dps on a kobold.

[Silverleafeon]

The devs and sev said the same thing on ddocast a week or so ago. They think cleric is behind fvs - I have no idea why.

Wow...no way if they are talking live.

Hmm...only way I can figure that is adding upcoming under development updates that we can not see yet.

For example, if Angel of Vengeance is actually fixed into an awesome tree.

And you add in these changes include the powerful level six hit point bonuses.

Then yeah.

Of course we cannot see the Angel of Vengeance tree changes,
nor the Warpriest tree changes
nor the lesser point costs for Radiant Servants.

But if that level six feat choice is getting in the way of having an awesome Angel of Vengeance tree,
then I certainly want the level six feat choice to go into the trash can.

[Arch-Necromancer]

The reason the don't put these in ED, is because then everyone is able to twist it in, and again, they won't it to be a FVS ability, and ONLY fvs. This would just mean a SP boosts to all casters, assuming most casters twist in the already cheap ability, being tier 1.

And it is a problem if other casters can use it too? You are saying other casters don't have problems with SP pools?

Favored Souls and Sorcerers already get more SP per level and double SP bonus from item effects.

This means if you increase SP pool by 15% instead of 10% it affects favored souls and sorcerers more than wizards and clerics (double bonus from this enhancement).

If you need SP bonus just for favored souls, maybe SP bonus enhancement could be added to Favored Soul enhancement tree, either Angel of Vengeance or a new tree in the future.

As an alternative to boosting Child, Favored, Beloved:

If the Devs are looking for ways to distinguish Favored Souls & Sorcerers from Clerics & Wizards, and realize
that the current spell point calculations are arbitrary abstract conversions of spell slots, then you could take this route:


~ At level one , Favored Souls & Sorcerers gain the following bonus:
Fury of the Self Taught (replace with whatever cool name you desire) feat
• You gain 20 spell points per Favored Soul/Sorcerer level. You also gain 30 Spell Points for each epic level you have gained.


Changing the math as you please, one could easily drop the numbers to 10ish ect...

One could also remove the spell cost penalty in the Sorcerer capstone, add more epic destiny points for everyone to spend in the expansion, and via la Sorcerers...
looking pretty till their pass.....

I remain the same opinion about the other changes, and am just offering another alternative to the level six feature.

Why would you add a feat for that at all? If you want larger SP gain per level just change base SP progression through levels:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Spell_point

[Grace_ana]

Personally, I think the devs should scrap changing the base class (resistance to absorption is really the only thing that makes sense due to the nature of the game and isn't a huge departure from pnp). Take the other stuff and some of the other suggestions made here by Silverleafon and others. Craft a third enhancement tree around that, including a multiselector in which you can choose wisdom or charisma to EITHER affect your casting stats (DC, SP, etc.) or melee/ranged stats (hit, dmg, etc.).

[karatemack]

I wonder if a third tree is already in the works? Other spell additions or other changes to FVS not listed here?

If it is then it might be helpful to give players a fuller picture of what is being planned for FvS as all the moving pieces change the full picture and could shape some of the feedback being provided.

[gummolo]

I wonder if a third tree is already in the works? Other spell additions or other changes to FVS not listed here?

If it is then it might be helpful to give players a fuller picture of what is being planned for FvS as all the moving pieces change the full picture and could shape some of the feedback being provided.

This

[Angelic-council]

I like the changes very much.. but you guys are so late. Now I have to change my gear and even the race. Sigh.

[Cashier]

I like the changes very much.. but you guys are so late. Now I have to change my gear and even the race. Sigh.

How so? lol. Why would you have to change your gear? Whatever if anything with gear, maybe get rid of the CHA/WIS items you don't need. and sun elf is still the best caster class.... What would you have to change?

[Silverleafeon]

Why would you add a feat for that at all? If you want larger SP gain per level just change base SP progression through levels:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Spell_point

+1 quite true, easy enough to tweak?

[Grace_ana]

I'm going to try to explain this all another way.

Anytime in the game that characters are allowed to use a stat other than their usual stat for anything, they have to make either an enhancement or feat investment (or two class-bound spells). The more of an investment, (usually) the more powerful it is. Below are all the ways in the game to change the default stat used.

Insightful reflexes - int for reflex save, feat
Force of personality - cha for will save, feat
Weapon finesse - dex to hit with light weapons, feat
Brutal throw - str to attack with thrown weapons, feat
Zen archery - wis to attack with ranged weapons (not thrown), monk feat
Past life: harbinger of nature's wrath - wis for hit and damage for summoned scimitars only, feat and a past life
Cormyrean knight training - cha for attack and damage with certain weapons, tier 1 PDK
Strategic combat I - int to hit, tier 1 harper
Strategic combat II - int for damage, tier 3 harper
Knife in the darkness - dex to hit with daggers and kukris, core 1 assassin
Dagger in the back - dex for damage with daggers and kukris, core 2 assassin
Targeting sights - int for damage with crossbows and thrown weapons, core 3 mechanic
Staff control - dex to hit with qstaffs, core 1 acrobat
Stick fighting - dex for damage with qstaffs, core 2 acrobat
Basic ninja training - dex to hit with centered weapons, core 1 ninja spy
Advanced ninja training - dex for damage with centered weapons, core 2 ninja spy
Different tack - dex, cha, or int for damage while SWF, tier 3 swashbuckler
Improved weapon finesse - dex for damage with bows, thrown weapons, and melee weapons with which you can use dex to hit, tier 2 DWS
Elven grace - dex for damage with certain weapons, tier 4 elf
Morninglord grace - dex for damage with certain weapons, tier 4 morninglord
Throw your weight around - con for damage with certain weapons, tier 4 dwarf
Skillful thrower - dex for damage with returning thrown weapons, tier 3 halfling
Tempest - dex to hit while dual wielding light weapons, core 2 tempest
Graceful death - dex for damage while dual wielding light weapons, core 3 tempest
Insightful strikes - int to hit, artificer spell
Insightful damage - int for damage, artificer spell

There are three takeaways from the above list:

1. Absolutely no one gets a choice for free. All of the options require at least a minimal investment, ranging from a specific class and spell slot all the way up to a feat and past life. Requiring the build investment is what balances it all out.

2. There is literally no option anywhere in the game for a caster to choose a preferred casting stat. Nowhere. It destroys the balance between investment and the power of spellcasting.

3. Allowing a class to choose a consolidated, preferred stat for BOTH casting and melee/ranged for free is so beyond broken, I cannot comprehend why it is even being suggested.

[Qezuzu]

There are three takeaways from the above list:

1. Absolutely no one gets a choice for free. All of the options require at least a minimal investment, ranging from a specific class and spell slot all the way up to a feat and past life. Requiring the build investment is what balances it all out.

2. There is literally no option anywhere in the game for a caster to choose a preferred casting stat. Nowhere. It destroys the balance between investment and the power of spellcasting.

3. Allowing a class to choose a consolidated, preferred stat for BOTH casting and melee/ranged for free is so beyond broken, I cannot comprehend why it is even being suggested.

Casting stat seiously doesn't matter beyond a few nuances (in FvS case they choose between better will saves or higher eburst DC, among other things) so being able to choose between WIS/CHA is not unbalancing. Yes, it is unique to choose casting stat, but this doesn't make it unbalancing.

Some ways to choose a different stat for things are so cheap it's a wonder why you even included them. See: core abilities fir acro/temp/ninja/assass, spell slots for artie. This is just another cheap way to change stat for att/dmg (not free: cheap. Not being able do something like 8/6/6 while benefiting from this counts as a cost.)

Wiz can already get INT to hit/dmg pretty cheaply (they're going to be investing in harper either way,) but you don't see melee/caster hybrid wizards blowing through content. Unless Warpriest gets overbuffed, I guarantee it will be the same for FvS.

Remember: just because it's a new way to do things doesn't make it unbalancing. Classes are supposed to be different.

[Cashier]

Casting stat seiously doesn't matter beyond a few nuances (in FvS case they choose between better will saves or higher eburst DC, among other things) so being able to choose between WIS/CHA is not unbalancing. Yes, it is unique to choose casting stat, but this doesn't make it unbalancing.

Some ways to choose a different stat for things are so cheap it's a wonder why you even included them. See: core abilities fir acro/temp/ninja/assass, spell slots for artie. This is just another cheap way to change stat for att/dmg (not free: cheap. Not being able do something like 8/6/6 while benefiting from this counts as a cost.)

Wiz can already get INT to hit/dmg pretty cheaply (they're going to be investing in harper either way,) but you don't see melee/caster hybrid wizards blowing through content. Unless Warpriest gets overbuffed, I guarantee it will be the same for FvS.

Remember: just because it's a new way to do things doesn't make it unbalancing. Classes are supposed to be different.

I agree fully. You said that choosing one stat is unbalancing? Altough... every other caster class only has to focus on one stat? Sorc:CHA Wiz:INT Cleric:WIS Druid:WIS I don't understand how making FVS the same way is unbalancing. You get get far better damage in a Sorc, and a DC wizard is amazing in upper content. *** are you complaining about?

[Enoach]

Greetings,

We are working on a Divine pass, but for this pass instead of solely focusing on class trees we wanted to update the base classes. Although we think Cleric is behind Favored Souls a bit, we also wanted to give Favored Souls - as part of their base class - some improvements that would add some quality of life changes. These are the changes to the base class of the Favored Soul that we are looking at.

Favor Soul
Base Class Changes

~ Favored Soul now uses the higher base ability score of Charisma or Wisdom for spellcasting. This includes DC calculations, Spell Point calculations, spell memorization, and checks to see whether you can cast the spell.

I'm going to admit that I'm torn here. While making this use the highest would help make them the same as the other caster class, but at the same time to me it feels like it is moving some of these classes away from what gives them flavor. Such as how Strength and Charisma is important to Paladin abilities.

~ Your Energy Resistance becomes Energy Absorption to better scale at high levels.

I actually like this change because of how it scales.

~ At level 2 you choose Charisma or Wisdom. You use this ability score for your to hit and damage with your Favored Weapon. This ability only functions if at least half your character levels are Favored Soul.

I like this idea, especially limited to favored weapon. However, I hope this does not override Strength if that is the highest or when features the use Dexterity when dexterity is the highest.

~ At level 6, Favored Souls can choose one of the following bonuses:
• You gain 10 hit points per Favored Soul level. You also gain 10 Hit Points for each epic level you have gained.
• You gain 20 spell points per Favored Soul level. You also gain 30 Spell Points for each epic level you have gained.

Why a choice here - Why not 5 HP and 10 SP per Heroic and 5 HP and 15 SP per epic level and use the percentage of favored soul levels

This would be +150 HP and +350 SP

verse
+300 HP OR +700 SP

Some design notes.

Our first iteration had Favored Soul choosing Wisdom or Charisma for hit and damage with their Favored Weapon at level 14. This cut down on splashes and was meant to support FvS melee builds. The problem we had is we don't want a player to have to have a bad experience for 13 levels before they could play their "real" build. Moving the bonus to lower levels just made it more and more of a splash ability rather than a Favored Soul core ability. The solution rewards people who are mostly Favored Soul, but gives a smooth experience while leveling.

Sev~

[Grace_ana]

Casting stat seiously doesn't matter beyond a few nuances (in FvS case they choose between better will saves or higher eburst DC, among other things) so being able to choose between WIS/CHA is not unbalancing. Yes, it is unique to choose casting stat, but this doesn't make it unbalancing.

Some ways to choose a different stat for things are so cheap it's a wonder why you even included them. See: core abilities fir acro/temp/ninja/assass, spell slots for artie. This is just another cheap way to change stat for att/dmg (not free: cheap. Not being able do something like 8/6/6 while benefiting from this counts as a cost.)

Wiz can already get INT to hit/dmg pretty cheaply (they're going to be investing in harper either way,) but you don't see melee/caster hybrid wizards blowing through content. Unless Warpriest gets overbuffed, I guarantee it will be the same for FvS.

Remember: just because it's a new way to do things doesn't make it unbalancing. Classes are supposed to be different.

We've well and truly jumped the shark now.

I agree fully. You said that choosing one stat is unbalancing? Altough... every other caster class only has to focus on one stat? Sorc:CHA Wiz:INT Cleric:WIS Druid:WIS I don't understand how making FVS the same way is unbalancing. You get get far better damage in a Sorc, and a DC wizard is amazing in upper content. *** are you complaining about?

It's one stat for casting AND physical damage. Please show me the other classes that can inherently do that with zero investment. I'll wait here.

[SeveredSteel]

It's one stat for casting AND physical damage. Please show me the other classes that can inherently do that with zero investment. I'll wait here.

Sure, despite this being an irrelevant criteria, we will indulge you inner casual. Showing other classes with zero investment :

Sorcerer PDK 3 ap. Zero with racial AP used. Even if no racial ap possessed it is minimal with 3 ap. None of these are running around broken. Maybe you're just the best builder of all time and the majority of posters don't know anything. But, that is only in a bizzaro world reality.
Bard PDK. Yes.
Warlock PDK. Yes.

What, now you're not going to use PDK racial tree and human isn't good? K. glad that's settled then.

Wizard with harper 12 ap. 2 ap cost if maxed racials. Otherwise 5 ap beyond what KTA maxed out would cost. Are we not going to take KTA on an int build?

No one is excited to make any of the above. You can now count your fvs build amongst them. Grats.

[DarthBeckett]

Is there really much difference between "with no investment" and what you where going to do anyway?