Wolf Builds - Where are we at?

[Eth]

...

Still haven't touched DDO since april, but some thoughts:

Unless something changed the way wolf builds work..
1. Dex to hit and damage doesn't work in wolf form. It's always Str based.
2. Tier 5s in vistani look really weak for wolves, since none of them should work with wolf form. Except mist stalker, but that's not exciting at all. Does the enhancement bonus from blessed blades work? If so it may be good. Otherwise 23 points looks like the sweet spot in the tree for the extra MP and doublestrike bonuses.
Cutting another 18 points somewhere for the 20 MP capstone is probably to much, since that would cost you a lot of base sneak damage from the other trees.
3. I'd probably cut HeM down to 11, like you suggested, cut 1 point from NiS and 1 point from Shintao and the racial tree entirely. That frees up 23 points.
Shadow double still looks like the best tier 5 to take for a wolf build (or does it not stack with rapid slash?).

[unbongwah]

Unless something changed the way wolf builds work..
1. Dex to hit and damage doesn't work in wolf form. It's always Str based.
2. Tier 5s in vistani look really weak for wolves, since none of them should work with wolf form. Except mist stalker, but that's not exciting at all. Does the enhancement bonus from blessed blades work? If so it may be good. Otherwise 23 points looks like the sweet spot in the tree for the extra MP and doublestrike bonuses.
Cutting another 18 points somewhere for the 20 MP capstone is probably to much, since that would cost you a lot of base sneak damage from the other trees.
3. I'd probably cut HeM down to 11, like you suggested, cut 1 point from NiS and 1 point from Shintao and the racial tree entirely. That frees up 23 points.
Shadow double still looks like the best tier 5 to take for a wolf build (or does it not stack with rapid slash?).

AFAIK:

1. Still true - STR only.
2. According to this poster, a lot of the Vistani tree works in wolf form if you have a dagger equipped. [Almost certainly not WAI, but what is with wolf builds?] I don't own Vistani yet, so I can neither confirm nor deny that on live. If I have a chance, I might run some tests on Lama.
3. Shadow Double is nice, but you have to take a lot of filler from Ninja since I don't think Ninja Poison works in wolf form. No Mercy works, but Stunning Fist no longer works in wolf form either and I'm not sure if you can hit a viable Stunning Blow DC on this split. [Maybe Balanced Attacks is enough of a DPS booster though?] Then again, you have to take a lot of filler from any tree on wolf builds so *shrug*

[SeveredSteel]

AFAIK:

1. Still true - STR only.
2. According to this poster, a lot of the Vistani tree works in wolf form if you have a dagger equipped. [Almost certainly not WAI, but what is with wolf builds?] I don't own Vistani yet, so I can neither confirm nor deny that on live. If I have a chance, I might run some tests on Lama.
3. Shadow Double is nice, but you have to take a lot of filler from Ninja since I don't think Ninja Poison works in wolf form. No Mercy works, but Stunning Fist no longer works in wolf form either and I'm not sure if you can hit a viable Stunning Blow DC on this split. [Maybe Balanced Attacks is enough of a DPS booster though?] Then again, you have to take a lot of filler from any tree on wolf builds so *shrug*

Vistani functions in wolf form for many of the abilities. The critical threat increases do not work, though Vendetta will display a 17 critical range it will never show up on the combat log as a critical. Blood of Vengeance on vorpal strikes does not trigger. I have not tested if the knife specialization lines work. Do the kensei lines function? Then these should. I have not testes if off-hand attack chance increases function from the Vistani tree or the Aasimar Scourge tree. My guess is that they do not based on testing times with Deft Strikes and Tempest's core 3 Tempest (clever name).

Tier 5 Vistani might be the better choice depending on what your build's doublestrike is. Wolves should be around 76%-86%~ in knife tree. Rapid Slash functions like Opportunity Attack in that they both can stay on if kept up making doublesrike values effectively 86%-96%. Shadow Double is netting 4 to 14% doublestrike. The rest of Ninja Spy past Veil is some sneak dice, stats, and No Mercy. While No Mercy is great, I feel the build gets more value getting Blessed Blades +10 that works just like Opportunity Attack and can be kept up the same way. Mist Stalker tier 5 20 dodge and cap clicky. The capstone is 2 to all stats and 20mp. There is Double Daggers for an additional 20mp, and 10% doublestrike and 10% offhand doublestrike.

[Eth]

[*]Shadow Double is nice, but you have to take a lot of filler from Ninja since I don't think Ninja Poison works in wolf form. No Mercy works, but Stunning Fist no longer works in wolf form either and I'm not sure if you can hit a viable Stunning Blow DC on this split. [Maybe Balanced Attacks is enough of a DPS booster though?] Then again, you have to take a lot of filler from any tree on wolf builds so *shrug*

Really? Getting to 20 in Hesnshin has some real filler, but ninja spy is really solid for a wolf.
Don't find there's filler in the choices I made in ninja spy (didn't take any of the poison stuff).
Stealthy may be optional, but has nice meme value when you run in shadowdancer and I really liked it for the passive ki regen in riding the storm out, since I needed abundant step a ton there with no enemies to hit.
Subtelty doesn't directly add anything, but has great value in party play.

Rest should be self explanatory.
I definitely wouldn't want to give up no mercy, and at that point you are 26 points in anyway...

[SeveredSteel]

That is where I am at with 2x NF in Master wind stance. If I trade in Master Forms for NF#3 then the build hits 99% doublestrike. At this point I feel like trading in a NF and upgrading to Grandmaster is better dps and defenses than NF stacking. Granmaster stances have the highest damage dice and add the most to long boss beatdowns when spammed in rotations.

[unbongwah]

Getting to 20 in Hesnshin has some real filler, but ninja spy is really solid for a wolf.

The first three cores, Sneak Atk Training x4, Melee Power Boost, No Mercy x3, and a ki strike is 22 out of the 30 APs you need to get to tier-5. So maybe 8 APs isn't "a lot" of filler, but it's still some. Like I said, though, with so much that's busted with wolf builds, odds are you're taking filler somewhere just to get to any tier-5.

[Eth]

That is where I am at with 2x NF in Master wind stance. If I trade in Master Forms for NF#3 then the build hits 99% doublestrike. At this point I feel like trading in a NF and upgrading to Grandmaster is better dps and defenses than NF stacking. Granmaster stances have the highest damage dice and add the most to long boss beatdowns when spammed in rotations.

I guess with these DS values shadow double indeed becomes useless and full knife tree is the better choice. Isn't fire stance more DPS however?

[Eth]

The first three cores, Sneak Atk Training x4, Melee Power Boost, No Mercy x3, and a ki strike is 22 out of the 30 APs you need to get to tier-5. So maybe 8 APs isn't "a lot" of filler, but it's still some. Like I said, though, with so much that's busted with wolf builds, odds are you're taking filler somewhere just to get to any tier-5.

Gotcha. The rest of those points don't net you much value, that's true. But 3 points each in agility and acrobatic doesn't feel wasted.

[SeveredSteel]

I guess with these DS values shadow double indeed becomes useless and full knife tree is the better choice. Isn't fire stance more DPS however?

Yes, fire stance is more dps. Take not that those values could be higher as that is a toon without 12 doublestrike lives, and is not an aasimar for 5 in more in racial ap, combined with nf#3, but giving up master of forms for 3 more net gain.

Possible total in Adept Wind, with Hail of Blows is 119. For your build that total is 18 less from no access to NF, but 6 more from Grandmaster Wind, puts it at 107. Might as well just stay in Fire and be at 95.

[cru121]

Sadly I have nothing to contribute except highlighting this. Ouch.

Vistani functions in wolf form for many of the abilities. The critical threat increases do not work, though Vendetta will display a 17 critical range it will never show up on the combat log as a critical. Blood of Vengeance on vorpal strikes does not trigger. I have not tested if the knife specialization lines work. Do the kensei lines function? Then these should. I have not testes if off-hand attack chance increases function from the Vistani tree or the Aasimar Scourge tree. My guess is that they do not based on testing times with Deft Strikes and Tempest's core 3 Tempest (clever name).

[Eth]

Yes, fire stance is more dps. Take not that those values could be higher as that is a toon without 12 doublestrike lives, and is not an aasimar for 5 in more in racial ap, combined with nf#3, but giving up master of forms for 3 more net gain.

Possible total in Adept Wind, with Hail of Blows is 119. For your build that total is 18 less from no access to NF, but 6 more from Grandmaster Wind, puts it at 107. Might as well just stay in Fire and be at 95.

Crazy DS values.
Fire stance also has the advantage that you can run lighting the candle full time, while still having enough Ki to spam ki attacks non stop.

[SonilasFx]

Still haven't touched DDO since april, but some thoughts:

Unless something changed the way wolf builds work..
1. Dex to hit and damage doesn't work in wolf form. It's always Str based.

Oh i dont know this because never try a wolf with dex base just str base
so NS Core or weapown finese feat dont work in wolf? why? just broken(bug?)?

[Eth]

Oh i dont know this because never try a wolf with dex base just str base
so NS Core or weapown finese feat dont work in wolf? why? just broken(bug?)?

Who knows with wolves and their bugs. It's just how it is. Once you are in wolf form you use Str as attack/damage mod. I don't know of any enhancements/feats that circumvent that.

[Hilltrot]

The highest melee dps in the game is; a monk wolf. It will beat any time by other melees on a flat out kobold race. It involves constant monk Ki attack spam. The attacks do not disrupt the auto attack animations, and they can trigger doublestrike/offhand/offhand doublestrike. For something that will spare your wrists, then either Kensei tier 5, or 13-15 rogue levels for sneak attack versions The rogue versions might perform better in reaper compared to the others due to sneak attack damage scaling more favorably.

Thanks for this. You were the only one to mention this in the thread. I was wondering if there was an exploit that was being used. Now I wonder if the Devs plan to fix the Ki thing or if they now consider it WAI. If so, the Druid Monk Ki attack exploit build will become one of the most popular builds. I've seen it. It's devastating and noticeably so.