Boss Debuffer and reaper composition

[Phil7]

Just noting another source of debuff that I never would have considered before remembering just how much damage -20% represents on a high-skull red name ( if -20 MP actually translates to -20% damage, that is.) And melee rogues have their problems in reaper but I wouldn't consider them "not worth bothering with," Acrobat has the capability to boost to 100% dodge with good uptime, and Assassin has the best insta-kill ability of any melee class. Plus, iirc sneak attack is not scaled down as much as other damage, so they have very strong single-target DPS regardless of MTF's annoying behavior.

And if people actually realize "hey, debuffing bosses is actually really helpful" then a -20 MP is a real asset they have over something like Tempest, which really only offers DPS to the party.

I mean, I harp on them a lot and want them to improve in reaper but that's mainly because they can't be played in reaper the way I'm used to (extensive use of sneaking.)

Well the difference between a Tempest and an Assassin in a boss fight is not that huge, so yes thinking twice I agree with you to be honest. I would consider choosing an Assassin if it made my tank's life easier. I hope that after the epic reaper exp buff we can run some tests with guildies and see how well Debuffing performs. It can really help reviving dead builds and add some diversity to groups. I know a lot of people who love playing Assassins and I hope this may give them a reason to do so.

[Mindos]

Mark of the Hunted from deepwood stalker lowers ability scores by 4 for 3 minutes.

http://ddowiki.com/images/Icon_Enhan...the_Hunted.png
Activate: Expend a use of Wild Empathy. Your currently selected enemy receives -25% Fortification, -10 Armor Class, -10 Spell Resistance, and suffers a -4 penalty to all ability scores for 3 minutes. This effect also works on bosses and Raid bosses.

Doesnt do anything to PRR/MRR, but that -4 has got to do something.

[Qezuzu]

Mark of the Hunted from deepwood stalker lowers ability scores by 4 for 3 minutes.

http://ddowiki.com/images/Icon_Enhan...the_Hunted.png
Activate: Expend a use of Wild Empathy. Your currently selected enemy receives -25% Fortification, -10 Armor Class, -10 Spell Resistance, and suffers a -4 penalty to all ability scores for 3 minutes. This effect also works on bosses and Raid bosses.

Doesnt do anything to PRR/MRR, but that -4 has got to do something.

-4 stats is pretty good, that's -2 damage. Not massive, but noticeable.

[Phil7]

small info update:
flat damage reduction on bosses is giving out some great results, a simple -30 damage can in some cases decrease the boss damage for more than 200.
The higher the scaling and the reaper skulls the higher the damage decrease!

I am also experimenting with ways to "free" the Healer from Divine Crusader. This means that Purification will now have to be applied from other party members using Interrogation and Purge the Wicked. This requires more group effort because the DPSers will now have to twist those in, but it allows the Healer to also play in Exalted Angel, thus increasing his spell DCs and helping stack Rebuke Foe faster on bosses. The healer can also twist Consecration + Sacred Ground + Crusade, because he has the highest Positive SP in the group and drop twists like Summer Smoke and Autumn Harvest which are very situational.

The healer can be a second insta-killer using Destruction, Implosion etc. and will best contribute as a Favored Soul. That is because of higher SP than Cleric and because FVS using Archon can build Endless Ardor stacks while being able to focus on healing instead of spamming light-spells. He can also drop Symbol of Weakness on bosses for a 3d6 STR penalty (max -9 damage) which is based on Necromancy DC.
The FVS can also buff with Inflame and debuff bosses using Shield of Condemnation & Crown of Retribution (transfer to the tank).
This is still a work in progress and the new Cleric pass might change this.

Some players I've spoken with have suggested adding a second caster to the group (Sorcerer) who can focus on CC/insta-kills and offer debuffs unique to the Sorcerer/Wizard spell book. My opinion on the matter is that the Sorcerer Debuffs will not contribute much to the boss fight (maximum -12 damage debuff), will add a second caster to the group thus lowering the overall DPS by a lot and also these specific debuffs are all seperate spells (4 spells) which the sorcerer will have to continuously renew. I believe it is not worth it and will only add more safety to the group (more CC, less boss damage), but will significantly hurt the group DPS.

*Big bad stamp of red text removed, it was a mistake to post it in the first place I'm sorry.

[jakeelala]

people have been debuffing bosses since 2006 mate. The game moved to DPS for the last few years, so it's no surprise with reaper people are just starting to get back to considering it.

Trying to put some stamp on it is probably just going to get you called a lot of names and lacks any real upside. Starting a thread to consolidate knowledge on it and post your results isn't really grounds for any sort of ownership or recognition outside of people saying "cool thread thanks for posting". Not exactly sure what you're hoping to accomplish with your big red block of text. You must understand lots of us have been debuffing since reaper came out. Most people just dont post about it because they don't want SSG to immediately nerf the good debuffs since that is what they do.

[Qezuzu]

people have been debuffing bosses since 2006 mate. The game moved to DPS for the last few years, so it's no surprise with reaper people are just starting to get back to considering it.

Trying to put some stamp on it is probably just going to get you called a lot of names and lacks any real upside. Starting a thread to consolidate knowledge on it and post your results isn't really grounds for any sort of ownership or recognition outside of people saying "cool thread thanks for posting". Not exactly sure what you're hoping to accomplish with your big red block of text. You must understand lots of us have been debuffing since reaper came out. Most people just dont post about it because they don't want SSG to immediately nerf the good debuffs since that is what they do.

Gosh where can I learn to be as cool as you.

[jakeelala]

Gosh where can I learn to be as cool as you.

You can start by deleting posts like this before hitting submit

[Phil7]

thanks for the little "spank" Jakeelala, I guess I'm still the same immature ***** as I was 2 years ago :P
Red has absolutely nothing to do with attention on a wall of text or anything of the sort. I just like red and I almost always use only red in my posts to distinguish specific words/sentences from others.
After a lengthy conversation with a friend last night I've come to a conclusion and I agree with you, especially on the "few last years DPS only meta". You're right about others branching out towards different builds since reaper. It shold have crossed my mind... after all there are thousand of players in DDO.

Things like that happen when one gets too cocky and there is no1 to put a wall and stop that person. Or some1 to show that person that they can do the same or even better. So yes thanks for being the second person to put that wall in my face.
Unfortunately two other factors led me in taking such an action along with negative emotions, the first being very similar to something that you've also recently experienced, according to one of your posts. A rejection and partly ignorance from SSG specifically on the aspect of class and game balance, something in which I've always been highly interested. The second was a player who used words exclusively copied from my first post, word for word. At first my reaction was that of great annoyance but after thinking about it again, I've come to realize that it is not really a bad thing. Someone simply read the post, learned something out of it and showed his interest by spreading it further.

Now that I got this off my chest I'd like to give my opinion on something specific, which is also what JOTMON wrote on the first page and there is a reason why I didn't reply to him.
"Most people just dont post about it because they don't want SSG to immediately nerf the good debuffs since that is what they do."
Yes I agree, I know that this has been a case many times before and I've also used a similar sentence 2 weeks ago, on one of my comments regarding the Soul Eater Warlock and a high percentage of veteran players running racials in R3+ as Soul Eater Warlocks, instead of ES warlocks which was the assumption of a less experienced player.

But the reason I made this post is not to show SSG what is strong and meta and laugh maliciously as they nerf it down to the ground. No I'm not that kind of person who gets high from seeing others cry and protest on the forums. I posted this in order to show others that there is much more diversity in groups than a lot of players think. I posted this to show SSG that they have made something new and great with Reaper and with the SE warlock and they can learn from it in their Wizard and Sorcerer pass. I also posted this hoping that end game players like myself might make a use out of it and have an easier time in R10.
But if the result is SSG nerfing it out of orbit and into uselessness then I'm sorry for this company and It would be sad to see them killing the few unique aspects that differentiate classes. I was hoping that SSG would see this and make some changes to Destinies like Fatesinger, Shadowdancer and GoF and Wizards/Sorcs, specifically on the aspect of unique buffing-debuffing and less on the aspect of DPS equality.

Also I've got a small update regarding Artificers, which is still in testing tho as this is my very first and last pure Artificer life

[LordOfSorrows]

I scanned through the posting nice theory work. Another buff I do not believe I saw mentioned which is and old school trick from when cap was 20 on harry is Mortican's Disjunction. It can remove buffs they have on the boss. 3 hits on the boss and there is usually a noticable difference in dmg.

[Phil7]

I am now capped at level 20 on my pure Artificer life and before I TR into a melee FVS life I'd like to leave my thoughts here on Arti, its contribution to groups, the one promising debuff that the class has (Prismatic Strike) and its overall "ranking" as a DPS/ultility class. Unfortunately I will not play Artificer in epics, because right now Gnomes are on a 35% sale and I really need to gather a few more DDO points to buy the race... that's why heroics again.

Playing Artificer was not that fun for me, it is not my cup of tea and I really dislike ranged pew-pew combat in DDO and classes with low Spell Points. But that doesn't mean Artis are weak or a bad class... not at all. In low heroics when u get 2x Blast Rods you can zerg R1 so fast it feels like a Sorcerer and after level 15 when u get Imp.Precise Shot you respec to T5 Battle Engineer, open Fusilade and just laugh at the dead waves of mobs from your Vorpal repeater.

The DPS from the class outside of Fusilade is pretty low compared to Mechanics and Monkchers and the base damage of the Repeater is terrible. But the trick to Repeaters is not focusing on base dmg and RP, but rather on on-hit effects, procs and attack speed. Will pure Artificer ever be the best-at ranged DPS class in the game? No, I really doubt it, but perhaps a Rogue/Arti/Ranger split using Fusilade and T5 DWS enhancements for 25 stacks of Archer's Focus in LD might be close to the best ranged sustained-DPS. The speed at which I could cap Archer's Focus on boss fights using Fusilade was very impressive, but I will leave this to dedicated ranged players to test and theorycraft on. Ranged combat is not my thing and I'm not interested in testing something which I dislike playing.. I'm just leaving a little hint here that's all

Anyway for a ranking comparison of Artificer to other ranged DPS builds, I'd say Artis have lower DPS, but offer a lot of ultility from Buffs/Burst-Spells/traps and if built properly, very strong trash CC. Using gear like LGS Ice, tendon slice, Slay-Living, Vorpal and Shiradi-Slow while hitting Fusilade can do wonders on properly lined-up trash. And don't forget the class has one of the best buffs in game, Radiant Forcefield which u can use on ur melees/tank and Weapon buffs to bypass DR for every situation.
For those asking about a strong and fun pure Arti build Lvl 1-30 I'd say hybrid build using LD, Scion of Air, Reign (twist), max Electric SP and using LGS Lightning for the procs during Fusilade. Artificers are very versatile so you can always change between full-DPS, nuker or hybrid.

Now Artificer is also the only class who can cast Prismatic Strike. It uses your Evocation school and the DC is similar to that of Blasting Rod. Appart from the Knockdown and Daze it can also debuff mobs and bosses (tested), resulting in a -25% melee/ranged damage debuff which is also Will-save based! This is very strong and very promising on a maxed-evocation build in combination with Shadows Upon You and further boss debuffing. The duration is 10 to 22 seconds (seems to be random) and the effect can not be reapplied before expiring. That means in theory the Artificer would have to concentrate on reapplying the debuff right after expiration. The only thing that needs further testing is whether this stacks with Monk's "Knock on the Sky" or not.

If it does, then we can achieve a -25% boss dmg from Arti + (-20%) dmg from Monk + (-40 MP/RP) from Soul Eater and Assassin + (-34 max.) damage debuff from Purification and Symbol of Weakness. More from various Wiz/Sorc debuffs and auras, but forget about that.

I'd like to point out that my assumption of -20MP/RP = -20% damage is wrong. The formula for negative MP/RP is different than that of the positive value and as such -20 MP on a target with a starting 0 MP translates to: 100 / (100 - -20) = 100/120, or 0.83, meaning the boss deals 83% of his original damage or 17% less damage. Thanks wiki!
This means that the MP/RP debuff gives different results on each target although the difference is not very significant. What happens if a target has 15 base MP and we debuff it to -5? Do we then have to account for both formulas? This needs more testing or an answer from the devs. Updated the 1st post aswell.

Anyway that'd be it for Artificers, I will definitely enlist the class in my starting post and I hope this helps a few Artificers at cap who need more love. The support which the class offers to tanks and melees is incredible, hopefully we can now R10 at end game without the tank having to jump around like a bunny during boss-fights and the melees getting 1 shotted from boss Cleaves.

[Mindos]

So prayer is actually a debuff as well! (thanks wright priests)

It's only -1 to attack, damage, saves, and skill checks, but it's still something. I wonder thought with the scaling that you are seeing, is -1 to weapon damage really -1 or....

http://ddowiki.com/page/Prayer

[gummolo]

Thanks to the OP and all the people who had contributed so far will contribute in the future. Very informative and propositive thread. Keep the good work on and not pay attention to the jelous people

[Wizza]

Nice thread, very interesting.

[Saekee]

Didn't see assassin's trick, level 6 core, added; affects fortification and sneak attack immunity.

Note: this can be activated while holding a ranged weapon, even though it is in the assassin melee tree.

Weaken undead on Mournlode chain & that one xbow
Weaken construct on Blasting chime

Shadow Mastery: final core of shadowdancer. Procs on vorpal so mechanics can maintain it easily

[Phil7]

*Updated text visibility and content.
Also added that the debuffing aspect of Bound & Grim Fate is not related to the spell's Will Save. The Will Save is only related to the "immobilization" effect.

[Phil7]

So I finally added Fatesinger to the group composition along with the Bard. Time to make some use out of Grim Fate
I'm so glad in theory it seems to work brilliantly! The group DPS that the class provides through buffs is really significant and I hope this might make Fatesinger a bit more popular.
Most changes are on the HEALER topic, along with a few other changes and an improvement in text visibility.

I've also capped my pure Druid-caster life and I've tested some interesting stuff, will provide more info later... might also include Druids in the Healer topic.

[Gilga1]

Thank you for this thread! Really interesting.

Some quick considerations on tanks (the role I played on r10 endgame).
Pure fighter Dwarf is not competitive imho.
Best is Fighter14/Pally5 (Tier 5 Harbored by Light)/Wiz1 (+10% AC).
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...k-Build-Thread
Stalwart and Sacred Defender enhancements stacks (Armor Mastery, Shield Mastery, Reinforced defense…)
Light the Dark is huge! With good positive spellpower and hamp you can self heal even on r10 and fill the whole party.

I played a Wiz 11 Pally 5 Fighter 4 split (more utilities, Tenser and Displacement always up, Arcane Barrier from EK). You can find some video footage on the Achievements board (I had very few rxp at that time…):
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-man-amp-video
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...10-world-first!

With the Cleric and FVS revamp I think the new best tank could be Cleric14/pally5/Wiz1 (Protection domain, Radiant forcefield SLA) or FVS 14/Pally5/Wiz1.

[Iriesys]

will you update this guide now with the new mod and coming changes to Bard?