DDO and the Future of Combat Styles

[KoobTheProud]

I'm just pointing out that your belief that this will fix differences between the styles within a given play style is not likely to be true.

People will just take the new info and min/max their tactics to whatever is most appropriate at each range and then switch out their weapons as needed to get max DPS/effect on the target.

This may make throwers less valuable overall, since throwers use different feats and skills in some cases than bow users, but it won't make particular styles within the bow meta more or less effective - it will just change player tactics to include the best DPS/effect at each range. This despite the fact that the various ranged weapons are very different from each other and require different skills and abilities to use. To go along with better damage at range and longer range Longbows should also have a STR requirement as an example. Any Xbow should have a DEX requirement, with rate of fire tied to DEX. All ranged weapons should be much less effective at melee range, etc.

If you wanted to really differentiate the various ranged styles the number of feats involved would have to be increased and their exclusivity to a given style would also have to be increased. If you don't do this players will take the same set of basic feats that work with all bows and create generalized builds that are far more flexible and ultimately successful than the people who choose to specialize in a particular weapon at a particular range.

[Thar]

[B]
Bows are a fair bit behind. However, in the right hands a Manyshot/10k Stars in Fury of the Wild build using only bows can an extremely effective character. But as of now, it can't quite keep up with a great xbow or shuriken build. The nerf to Manyshot a couple years ago was really bad. It's cooldown needs to be changed at this point. That's the single easiest and fastest way to improve Bows.

Bows shouldn't be restricted to just rangers or splashes with manyshot. The problem with Bows is more attack speed is too slow compared to the other styles. In pnp the bows should be able to fire about 2x the speed of the heavy crossbow. In RL it might be even faster for skilled users.

not sure i agree with your damage/distance arguement as short range has more power behind it but an interesting arguement. it would probably break the system but it is kinda degrading with distance with point blank shot

[jakeelala]

Bows shouldn't be restricted to just rangers or splashes with manyshot. The problem with Bows is more attack speed is too slow compared to the other styles. In pnp the bows should be able to fire about 2x the speed of the heavy crossbow. In RL it might be even faster for skilled users.

not sure i agree with your damage/distance argument as short range has more power behind it but an interesting argument. it would probably break the system but it is kinda degrading with distance with point blank shot

I appreciate you mentioning PBS since it's actually a great example of how the devs have at least approached some of these issues even if in a rudimentary and simple way.

Also, the specifics of such a system overhaul is totally up for debate, I'm just putting it out there for discussion.

[jakeelala]

I'm just pointing out that your belief that this will fix differences between the styles within a given play style is not likely to be true.

People will just take the new info and min/max their tactics to whatever is most appropriate at each range and then switch out their weapons as needed to get max DPS/effect on the target.

This may make throwers less valuable overall, since throwers use different feats and skills in some cases than bow users, but it won't make particular styles within the bow meta more or less effective - it will just change player tactics to include the best DPS/effect at each range. This despite the fact that the various ranged weapons are very different from each other and require different skills and abilities to use. To go along with better damage at range and longer range Longbows should also have a STR requirement as an example. Any Xbow should have a DEX requirement, with rate of fire tied to DEX. All ranged weapons should be much less effective at melee range, etc.

If you wanted to really differentiate the various ranged styles the number of feats involved would have to be increased and their exclusivity to a given style would also have to be increased. If you don't do this players will take the same set of basic feats that work with all bows and create generalized builds that are far more flexible and ultimately successful than the people who choose to specialize in a particular weapon at a particular range.

some interesting points here for sure, like strength for bows and dex for crossbows which I really like. Imagine if Xbow fire rate/reload speed was correlated directly to dexterity. I love that idea. Its similar to ANT and Shuriken Expertise.

It would be a fantastic way to smooth out the bloated power curve of repeaters in heroics too since ability scores naturally gate over levels 1-20. Having all 3 bolts right away at level 1 or 3 or whatever is totally nuts right now.

[Astoroth]

the great imbalance between ranged combat styles .... non-shuriken throwing are currently pretty much dead in the water

I'd like to see the ranger past life changed to include thrown weapons. It'd help ameliorate the nerf to shuriken for those that used ranger imbues. But would also make other thrown weapons a little more viable.

[Mr_Helmet]

Just remove Ranged-power from the game.

Problem solved.

[jakeelala]

Just remove Ranged-power from the game.

Problem solved.

What about melee power?

[mr420247]

Perhaps if ranged weapons had an absolute max range that might help

Since even enlarged ray spells have a maximum range and a higher spell cost

Just a thought

[nokowi]

Perhaps if ranged weapons had an absolute max range that might help

Since even enlarged ray spells have a maximum range and a higher spell cost

Just a thought

Ranged play need better alternative and competing build choices. They don't all need everything.

Run speed vs damage vs accuracy while moving vs toughness vs dodge chance. rate of fire while standing still > rate of fire while moving.

Letting players choose the max damage build without any other sacrifices is what makes balance difficult.

[Selvera]

I'd like to see the ranger past life changed to include thrown weapons. It'd help ameliorate the nerf to shuriken for those that used ranger imbues. But would also make other thrown weapons a little more viable.

The main reason that other thrown weapons aren't viable is because there is nearly no reason to use a throwing weapon that barely doesn't do more damage then a shuriken when you throw only half as many. Adding +2 damage will only cause other throwing weapons to be further behind shuriken throwers.

What other throwing weapons need is a reason to be used. Better crit profile, better damage dice or the ability to use alternative stats to hit/damage or even a unique active ability in some class that's specific to heavier-thrown weapons are ideas of an actual reason to use them.

[KoobTheProud]

I thought the main reason other throwing weapons weren't viable is because Monk is required in the highest damage thrower builds for 10K Stars and only Shuriken allow you to remain centered?

[jakeelala]

DWS/Harper repeater 1-8 feat swapping to DWS/sb dart thrower 9-20 seems alright to me.

that is extremely pathetic damage for an epic level character, which you seem to be from the Arborea enchantment on your weapon

[jakeelala]

I tossed that up there to get this response, which I knew I would.

That is heroic damage, as can be seen by the "maximum heroic experience achieved" from when I last capped. Swashbuckling is supposed to be the base, so regardless of what the numbers in that picture show, at whatever level in heroics or epics, that is supposed to be considered "normal."

The real problem which you just clearly illustrated, from all the stealth posts from rogues wanting to walk through quests like warlocks primarily and exploit builds to a lesser extent ("the power builds"), or ranged dps wanting to be "competitive" and dps dungeons down like "power builds," and even posts about the lack of divines and self-healing nerf and wanting to heal bypassing the penalty like warlocks can with temp hp, is that "power builds" have been overpowered for so long and as a result are so populous and have such a huge footprint on DDO and probably account for the majority of progression that they are the standard that players use.

SSG either needs to reset the bar at "power builds" and find peace with their customer base, or knock all of them off their thrones. Too many people across too many play styles are wondering why their play style can't do what a warlock can.

I suppose I should file a bug complaint about arborea and other effects sticking when they should drop off, but I'm still waiting for my druid animal form bug complaints from years and years ago to resolve.

not to diminish your other points but lvl 20 + Epic Destiny is is hard to call heroic damage. Just sayin

[Jasparion]

DWS/Harper repeater 1-8 feat swapping to DWS/sb dart thrower 9-20 seems alright to me.

Unless you are comparing the build to a Shuriken thrower with the same level of gear it doesnt really mean much.

I have an absolutely terrible Kensai Centred Fighter, Monk, Paladin and he sometimes hits 2k damage on crits. But mostly the damage is rubbish. When he gets to 30 he gets TR'd in to pretty much anything else.

Plenty of builds can do "good" damage with "good" gear. Are there any non-Shuriken thrower builds that can do "great" damage with "good" gear?

[Astoroth]

The real problem which you just clearly illustrated, from all the stealth posts from rogues wanting to walk through quests like warlocks primarily and exploit builds to a lesser extent ("the power builds"), or ranged dps wanting to be "competitive" and dps dungeons down like "power builds," and even posts about the lack of divines and self-healing nerf and wanting to heal bypassing the penalty like warlocks can with temp hp, is that "power builds" have been overpowered for so long and as a result are so populous and have such a huge footprint on DDO and probably account for the majority of progression that they are the standard that players use.

SSG either needs to reset the bar at "power builds" and find peace with their customer base, or knock all of them off their thrones. Too many people across too many play styles are wondering why their play style can't do what a warlock can.

The fundamental problem though, is that they can't or they would have by now. Because warlocks have been overpowered for so long and as a result are so populous and have such a huge footprint on DDO especially towards progression, the majority of the remaining player base either is, or is sucking on the teat of, a warlock to progress.

But they could knock your particular "power build" down and did, which seems unfair to you because you are asking the wrong question. The question that you should really be asking is wether or not it was unfair relative to swashbuckling, not if it is unfair relative to warlocks.

I agree there should be more uniformity in what different builds can achieve. Whether its upping the base damage of some or reducing others. Or something simple like a max damage for a spell, ranged or melee hit; with a minimum as well that's character level based, to help out those less able. They don't mind putting hard caps or diminishing returns on many things, why not player and monster damage as well. There are lots of things they could do if they tried, but they are seemingly uninterested in actual balance though. Which will result in many people being frustrated that their characters are seemingly less adequate, or being frustrated when the builds they play are nerfed.

But the ranger past life should apply to to all throwers including shuriken. +2 (or 6) damage for all thrown weapons! Pretty sure that would go a long way to fixing throwing builds. ^^

As for warlock it should've had real nerfs the week it was released. And slayer and many epic damage mods should have had it's damage moved out side of the base crit damage multiplier area when epics were introduced and we wouldn't have the monster hp bloat we have now. It's too much of a game within a game to game the damage system; tilo and jake know that well enough they played that game a lot.

[Jasparion]

It's just lvl 20 experience, or the commonly seen 19 capped character before a TR. If it was epic + destiny it would show xp to 21, and hit a lot harder. It is sub 20. Hitting a button and having a bunch of damage pop out in heroics seems ok to me. Especially with all the different buttons one can hit.



You missed the point. The point isn't to compare it to other builds, including whatever fantasy build you can cook up which is as powerful as possible or a warlock. The point is one is supposed to compare other builds to it, and to nerf the other builds if they are much too powerful. It is a swashbuckler, and swashbuckling *is* the standard. Or at least it should be for both players and developers, which is where the problem arises. Swashbuckling shuriken and swashbuckling dart are more or less identical. You start both 1-8 with a repeater, and swap to snowstar or spike at 9, and both level 1-20 alright. Well, 1-8 as a thrower could use help to avoid use of a repeater. But that is a different topic.

I didnt miss the point. Do you think it a reasonable supposition that there should be a number of well made thrower builds available which are all roughly equivalent? If there was 1 or 2 thrower builds available which were vastly more powerful, should something be done about that or is that just fine?

This same argument can be used with any other type of build. Should there be a number of build options available that are roughly equivalent? And by roughly I mean some may do a bit more damage but cant handle as much damage, some may do a bit less damage but can either take less damage or heal through damage... but overall none of them clearly shines through as OP.

This doesnt require every build to be equal. It doesnt require every build to be the same. It doesnt require every build to fit in to some sort of box. All it says is, if you sum up the various good and bad, you end up with a similar rating across all toons.

All you have done is said "hey with a Swashbuckler at level 20 you can do good damage". Im sure you can. But how does that actually mean anything in a discussion about combat styles where it is clear that some styles are vastly superior to other styles?

[mr420247]

Casters have an absolute maximum range said that and it costs

All the reaper and effects whos it really after

Hellballs been ruined, Darkfires been ruined, Lock dps ruined, Wiz pk op till they raise the dc bar

And they have if you remember the mortal fear times ez to nerf casters just raise the dcs

LGS op 1 whole week mortal fear years what else is new

[Wonedream]

I made a thrower that threw hammers and other junk that was able to cremate mobs in seconds. He was a triple class build and held a shield and ended up like a tank with evade... now if I ever rebuild him... Ill have to ask myself how I did it. It would not be possible on a single class for sure.

I pretty much agree though, throwing JUNK is the term I used for a reason. I do remember this much, if you do throw junk, the ONLY chance that I saw and used that worked was a Deepwood Sniper tier 5 build that combines other classes to put it over the edge. I was planning to try just a Deepwood Sniper this time, but he does have a bow in case it turns sore...

Edit Add: I must admit it was quite satisfying to throw total junk and see mobs go down so fast. There is some kind of inner laughter that comes with it.. I remember thinking to myself, woah, this is actually working really good... was one of the best builds I ever came up with.

[Krell]

I think some of the comments about ranged avoiding damage is overstated. Mobs in newer quests seem *really* fast. Fire a shot in the swampy rat room in slave lords and you are surrounded in 1-2 seconds. In low reaper there are melee/ranged/caster builds that are all effective for damage and surviving. Some melee builds could use more defense, but I think all builds need some defensive planing. It is in mid-high reaper where things start to separate. DC wizards rule the day with insta-kill and holds. A good intimi-tank helps and a healer is nice, but with the damage drop off, the key is the wizard. DPS can't beat insta-kill and the best defense and damage boost is the holds. Some other classes can cc and insta-kill fairly well, but I use wizard as the example since I think they are at the top for this purpose. I've usually focused on DPS ranged and melee builds but now I'm working on my gear/DC/SP/past lives/reaper xp to get my wizard ready. DPS still has value in mid to high reaper but I think the difference between and smooth and painful run is a good wizard.

[Wizza]

I think some of the comments about ranged avoiding damage is overstated. Mobs in newer quests seem *really* fast. Fire a shot in the swampy rat room in slave lords and you are surrounded in 1-2 seconds. In low reaper there are melee/ranged/caster builds that are all effective for damage and surviving. Some melee builds could use more defense, but I think all builds need some defensive planing. It is in mid-high reaper where things start to separate. DC wizards rule the day with insta-kill and holds. A good intimi-tank helps and a healer is nice, but with the damage drop off, the key is the wizard. DPS can't beat insta-kill and the best defense and damage boost is the holds. Some other classes can cc and insta-kill fairly well, but I use wizard as the example since I think they are at the top for this purpose. I've usually focused on DPS ranged and melee builds but now I'm working on my gear/DC/SP/past lives/reaper xp to get my wizard ready. DPS still has value in mid to high reaper but I think the difference between and smooth and painful run is a good wizard.

Mobs have been faster than our toons for a while now