Upcoming Systems Changes for U36

[Arctigis]

Striken at level 2 has the same range, cast speed, and a 10s cool down and hits for 16d10 or 88 damage over time. A human warlock can max/empower it. Plus each cast stacks the dot up to 3x, for up to 264 damage over time.

Consume at level 1 hits for 12d6, and has the same range, cast speed, and also has a 10s cool down.

A level 20 pure acid savant sorc in draconic has a level 33 Black dragon bolt level 9 spell, which does 1d3 per level or 66 damage over time.

So a level 2 warlock has 4x the DoT of a level 20 pure acid savant in draconic using the level 9 spell black dragon bolt, as a free ability, with free maximize/empower.

As said earlier. Lolwut?

This is a wind up, right?

You're getting Consume and Stricken mixed up.
They cost AP, they're not spells.
They have irritating targeting and long cooldowns.
Choosing a bad spell as a counter argument does not make you right. Your whole point was damage dice over
time. Now your argument is comparing class enhancements to spells.

I don't mind debating this but let's establish what we actually want to talk about first.

[Arctigis]

Whatevers, one is lvl 1, other is lvl 2. I just know a first life level 2 human warlock can probably run reaper harbor naked, trivially. At level 3 add in burning blood SLA and its GG. GL doing that on a sorc.

Again, what are we are we talking about again? Your initial argument was further nerfing pact damage. Now it's something else.

This is a silly conversation. If sorc was anywhere near warlock they wouldn't be outnumbered by them 3:1 or more.

This is no proof of anything.

[FranOhmsford]

There is strong, and then there is hit 1 button to automatically kill something in reaper, on a first life character, naked, at level 1.

Consume is strong and as you say will eventually kill most low tier Reaper mobs in Harbour content BUT IT IS A SINGLE TARGET DOT!

Plenty of characters can one-shot low tier Reaper Mobs in Harbour content too - It doesn't take that much.

And Consume is a DOT!
A strong one but still a DOT! It takes time to kill the mob, time in which you have to stay out of the mob's reach.

It also has a quite long cooldown and being single target the chances are you've got multiple other mobs attacking you.



P.S. I don't like Soul Eater, I don't play it, I found Consume and Stricken to be worthless abilities when I tried them out on a 13/2 Iconic Shadar-Kai Lock/Rog.
I found Soul Eater an unplayable Enhancement Tree.
So I am NOT trying to protect any of my characters from being Nerfed - I'm just utterly fed up of Nerfs for NO Reason!

[KoobTheProud]

The argument for really hammering Warlock by reducing blast and pact dice is essentially that it would remove the need to do passes on the other arcane classes. I'm not sure I'd be looking for that at this point. It might be better overall for game balance but it wouldn't really make DDO a better game to play.

Wizards with the appropriate past lives are already duoing high Reaper levels. It's not obvious to the casual observer but a fully fleshed out Wizard is every bit as powerful as a Warlock at this point and has greater flexibility in adapting to meta changes. Balancing around the baseline of a class is a bad idea. Balancing around a specific level range (1-20 for example) is a bad idea. When a problem remains throughout the play experience then balancing becomes palatable but that is not the case with Warlocks and Wizards - at cap and fully formed Wizards are every bit as powerful as a fully formed Warlock, with more choices available and better damage scaling at Legendary levels.

[KoobTheProud]

No, the argument for really hammering warlock is to really hammer warlock. If their internal testing shows warlock is overpowered, why are they really only nerfing ES warlocks?

Because the only reason they are nerfing Warlocks at this point is that they make the RTR process too fast for the average player for their tastes.

The average player looking just to level fast through RTR's is using the simplest build to do that, the one that becomes good very early and stays good through 20. That being an ES Burster of course.

They're not nerfing Warlocks based on overall power. They're nerfing Warlocks based on what they see being used to power through the new grinds. They're not nerfing Warlocks to stop the power gamers from quickly farming lives. That horse has left the barn already. They're nerfing Warlocks so that the grinds do not become trivial for everybody else.

It is not a coincidence that Warlocks were considered to be ok, with some nerfage early on but most of the design of the class intact, until two new grinds presented themselves and then suddenly become too OP for SSG's tastes. They track the builds that people are using in the new hamster wheel and one of them was an easy button for people trying to get through those (non-class based) grinds. Boom. Take down the high-flyer, not because people complained and not because they were overpowered but because they were trivializing content that SSG was relying on to keep people interested in the game.

Now the problem is that something else will pop up as the top build and people will flock to that. There are no shortage of candidates even though SSG also nerfed xbow and thrower builds recently.

And like I said: odds on Wizard or Sorcerer getting a significant pass at any point go down with every nerf to the builds in front of them. At end game it's not clear that the Wizards aren't already a primo class, maybe too primo.

[Jasparion]

No, the argument for really hammering warlock is to really hammer warlock. If their internal testing shows warlock is overpowered, why are they really only nerfing ES warlocks?

Maybe they are actually okay overall with Warlock, but their goal was to simply take away the Easy button and make Warlocks have to do even a little bit of work for their kills.

If that was their plan then Id say the change they are making is perfect.

However, it could also be they simply didnt know what else to change. Not sure why they didnt halve the effect of Shining Through. It would still be incredibly powerful.

[krolikru3]

It's almost as if you guys at SSG are intentionally trying to drive players away from your game. I guess having only a couple hundred people left playing on each server is just too many.

Well, I hope all the whiners and complainers really enjoy playing solo.

Wait.... is that.... no it can't be....

Are you... WHINING :O

[Niminae]

Take down the high-flyer, not because people complained and not because they were overpowered but because they were trivializing content that SSG was relying on to keep people interested in the game.

Now the problem is that something else will pop up as the top build and people will flock to that. There are no shortage of candidates even though SSG also nerfed xbow and thrower builds recently.

This seems to be a reasonable conclusion.

U36 will bring a nerf to wolf Druids, and SSG is already working on 'changes' to ranged combat. And there's very little change that those changes will be improvements to the damage output of ranged builds.

[dragons1ayer74]

Because the only reason they are nerfing Warlocks at this point is that they make the RTR process too fast for the average player for their tastes.

The average player looking just to level fast through RTR's is using the simplest build to do that, the one that becomes good very early and stays good through 20. That being an ES Burster of course.

They're not nerfing Warlocks based on overall power. They're nerfing Warlocks based on what they see being used to power through the new grinds. They're not nerfing Warlocks to stop the power gamers from quickly farming lives. That horse has left the barn already. They're nerfing Warlocks so that the grinds do not become trivial for everybody else.

It is not a coincidence that Warlocks were considered to be ok, with some nerfage early on but most of the design of the class intact, until two new grinds presented themselves and then suddenly become too OP for SSG's tastes. They track the builds that people are using in the new hamster wheel and one of them was an easy button for people trying to get through those (non-class based) grinds. Boom. Take down the high-flyer, not because people complained and not because they were overpowered but because they were trivializing content that SSG was relying on to keep people interested in the game.

Now the problem is that something else will pop up as the top build and people will flock to that. There are no shortage of candidates even though SSG also nerfed xbow and thrower builds recently.

And like I said: odds on Wizard or Sorcerer getting a significant pass at any point go down with every nerf to the builds in front of them. At end game it's not clear that the Wizards aren't already a primo class, maybe too primo.

This seems to be pretty accurate IMO..."You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to KoobTheProud again."

[Qhualor]

Because the only reason they are nerfing Warlocks at this point is that they make the RTR process too fast for the average player for their tastes.

The average player looking just to level fast through RTR's is using the simplest build to do that, the one that becomes good very early and stays good through 20. That being an ES Burster of course.

They're not nerfing Warlocks based on overall power. They're nerfing Warlocks based on what they see being used to power through the new grinds. They're not nerfing Warlocks to stop the power gamers from quickly farming lives. That horse has left the barn already. They're nerfing Warlocks so that the grinds do not become trivial for everybody else.

It is not a coincidence that Warlocks were considered to be ok, with some nerfage early on but most of the design of the class intact, until two new grinds presented themselves and then suddenly become too OP for SSG's tastes. They track the builds that people are using in the new hamster wheel and one of them was an easy button for people trying to get through those (non-class based) grinds. Boom. Take down the high-flyer, not because people complained and not because they were overpowered but because they were trivializing content that SSG was relying on to keep people interested in the game.

Now the problem is that something else will pop up as the top build and people will flock to that. There are no shortage of candidates even though SSG also nerfed xbow and thrower builds recently.

And like I said: odds on Wizard or Sorcerer getting a significant pass at any point go down with every nerf to the builds in front of them. At end game it's not clear that the Wizards aren't already a primo class, maybe too primo.

Bah, you got me to break my silence. I've been reading these threads every day since I quit and now felt the need to comment. Hyperbole running rampant on these boards.

This is completely false. The devs asked the 2016 PC, which I was on, about what changes to warlock we felt were needed months ago. The devs decided on another round of warlock changes well before all this racial and Reaper efficiency jazz.

[Dark_Lord_Mary]

First off great job on the game - after all these years DDO is still very fun.

With that said, I do not believe warlocks need a nerf; Nerfs of any kind in general are very lame and drive players away -

what is the general fascination video game developers have with endlessly 'balancing' - balancing what?
It's all made up anyway. Nerfs and balancing kill MMOs. Dead. Done.

For DDO today Warlocks are not the most OP DPS out there. I mean, whenever I have a quest in heroics i want to steamroll I bring a melee DPS - what is next? Nerf the dice on swords?

I have really been digging what the game is today - Reaper is inspired; whoever came up with it deserves a raise. The game seems very balanced to me, minus melee being very strong - but that's always been so in DDO. Warlocks do NOT need to be nerfed. If anything casters in robes need some love since PRR and MRR are the way to go now.
How about instead of nerfing you fix the server lag; fix the warlock bug that shoots the blast at the ceiling or at the floor or basically anywhere but at the mob you're aiming for; fix the client memory leak that has been there since beta.

Don't be like Mel Brooks in Blazing Saddles;
'Nerf, nerf, nerf; nerf nerf, nerf; nerf, nerf, nerf - hello boys, have a good night's rest? I've missed you.

- it is mindless and pointless-

Focus on bringing the D&D world to life, the original game was never balanced, it was never intended to be - Wizards got wish spells! I mean really

- continue developing old modules like The Keep on the Borderlands and Expedition to the Barrier Peaks and Desert of Desolation.

Again, great job on DDO - after all this time it still is great.


PS - the game and rules envisioned by Gygax and others may not be perfect but they gave us this great game world to play in. We are fans. We love it. Let's not diverge into mental illness.

[Arch-Necromancer]

Many players complain that there are OP Shiradi builds that ruin the game.

I see that one of the problems is that Shiradi imbues work on all offensive spells, so they can be used by wizards, sorcerers, and other casters that may not have been intended to use these imbues (since it is a ranger/druid/barbarian destiny tree).

If you have fixed Arcane Archer imbue to only work on arrows, perhaps you could also fix the Shiradi tree to imbue only ranger and druid spells so it can't be misused for various OP wizard/sorcerer builds.

[Viconiax]

Many players complain that there are OP Shiradi builds that ruin the game.

I see that one of the problems is that Shiradi imbues work on all offensive spells, so they can be used by wizards, sorcerers, and other casters that may not have been intended to use these imbues (since it is a ranger/druid/barbarian destiny tree).

If you have fixed Arcane Archer imbue to only work on arrows, perhaps you could also fix the Shiradi tree to imbue only ranger and druid spells so it can't be misused for various OP wizard/sorcerer builds.

ED is not class-specific. For example, most Warlock stay in EA despite being arcane. Likewise, it supposed to work with all spells including arcane similar to Color of the Queen which even work with melee attack.

[FranOhmsford]

ED is not class-specific. For example, most Warlock stay in EA despite being arcane. Likewise, it supposed to work with all spells including arcane similar to Color of the Queen which even work with melee attack.

As much as I'd miss being able to play my Fey Locks in US {Not EA!} I really do dislike how the Devs did EDs.

I'd back making EDs at the very least "sphere based on class" I.E.
Wizard, Sorc, Arti, Bard, Warlock - Arcane Sphere only
Cleric, FavSoul, Paladin - Divine Sphere only
Fighter, Rogue, Monk - Melee Sphere only
Druid, Ranger, Barbarian - Primal Sphere only

Yes this would create problems like Shadowdancer not being available to Artis but Artis need their OWN destiny anyway - They don't have one! {And Shadowdancer needs a complete overhaul too}.


Fey Lock = Fatesinger isn't actually a bad destiny for Fey Locks - In fact it's a very good destiny only ignored because of EA and US.
Fiend or GOO Locks = Draconic obviously.


And as for which Class - I'd suggest the character being able to utilise any sphere in which said character has at least 7 levels in {so 7,7,6 builds would get to choose from 2 spheres} but once a sphere is chosen {at lvl 20 - This would require the Destiny UI not automatically putting you back in last destiny each Life} it's locked in for the rest of that life.

[Spellonzo]

Honestly,someone tell me,
How do you explain Turbine and SSG making such bad design decisions for such a long time and not learning from their past mistakes?

They got out in time

[Arch-Necromancer]

ED is not class-specific. For example, most Warlock stay in EA despite being arcane. Likewise, it supposed to work with all spells including arcane similar to Color of the Queen which even work with melee attack.

But EA does not grant them caster levels. It only gives caster levels to divine casters.

Since Shiradi imbues are mostly on cores, they too could be made to work only on offensive spells from primal sphere casters, rangers and druids.

Other classes would still gain the benefits for ranged attacks, but not for their spells.

This looks like the same problem like Arcane Archer imbues, IMO.

[mr420247]

Heres what i think you really care about balance

Its time for Stamina bars for all melees and ranged classes

Nothing is more op then unlimited sustainable dps and tactical and defensive abilities free

So before you go messing with casters and eds in epics got on that

And since we have double shot and double strike where is our double cast at

[Phoenicis]

8<snip>8
Its time for Stamina bars for all melees and ranged classes
8<snip>8
And since we have double shot and double strike where is our double cast at

Nope. and nope.

By pretty much everyone's accounts, melee is already hosed in reaper (I don't play much reaper) adding a stamina bar would cripple what is supposedly an already marginal playstyle in the highest difficulties. For ranged? Meh, remove ammunition, maybe I could agree (yes, I know about returning thrown weapons, but most ranged builds are repeater/archer builds I'm guessing.)

Double cast? Where is the game logic to that? Double strike/doubleshot (ok, less so for doubleshot) can be viewed as an experienced combatant spotting an opening a lesser warrior (someone with less doublestrike/shot %) would have missed. I fail to see the logic in adding doublecast, it takes a finite amount if time to cast a spell. Also, would it cost double spellpoints? (doubleshot uses two (or more) arrows per occurrence).

Next question is how does stamina replenish and how quickly? by a spell/effect that's already in the game? Potions that already exist? New stamina pots?

Not to mention recoding literally EVERY melee and ranged ability in the game.

Would mobs have stamina? Bosses? Mini-bosses? Raid-bosses?

And lets not forget the 'make it more like DnD not less' crew, how fast would this push them away?

I'm not seeing any upside, other than MAYBE getting rid of ammo on archer/repeater builds, then how do they break DR on some of the tougher bosses?

Note, I've said before (and maintain to this day) that DDO began moving away from DnD long long ago. So 'being faithful' to DnD is not my goal. Having a fun game is my goal, and if my melee (yes, I play a lot of melee) have to watch their stamina all of a sudden or be crippled in combat, yeah, that's not fun.

[mr420247]

Oh yeah and yeah dont like too bad

Already seen tons of videos of melees in r10s so

Welcome to the world of monks and casters balance all around

All they need is to give melees some heroic cc options and it would work just about the same

I would rather boost melees then nerf others

Considering mobs are casters and never seem to run out i guess that would work the same as well

Gear and feats and enhancements could easily be used to replenish stamina same as casters or monk ki regens

I'd say every vorp crit alone would be enough for stamina regen n ofc they should sell stamina pots why there not is crazy just milk casters right

[Niminae]

Bah, you got me to break my silence. I've been reading these threads every day since I quit and now felt the need to comment. Hyperbole running rampant on these boards.

This is completely false. The devs asked the 2016 PC, which I was on, about what changes to warlock we felt were needed months ago. The devs decided on another round of warlock changes well before all this racial and Reaper efficiency jazz.

Perhaps they "decided (emphasis mine) on another round of warlock changes well before all this racial and Reaper efficiency jazz," , but then they didn't implement another round of warlock changes until RTR and Reaper were introduced. And while you can of course try to excuse the long delay between that decision and that implementation, the fact remains that it clearly wasn't important enough for them to actually do more than think about until RPL and Reaper were released.