Upcoming Systems Changes for U36

[Steelstar]

Hello!


U36 is shaping up to be a very large update, with some great new content, Artificer changes, and a fairly large number of Bug and Quality-of-Life fixes. There are a few of these changes we wanted to let you know about ahead of Lamannia in order to provide some design insight and provide a bit of advanced notice.


Arcane Archer
With U36, the following changes are being made to Arcane Archer (both Elf and Ranger):

• Arcane Archer Imbue toggles will only grant their effects while wielding a Longbow or Shortbow.
• Arcane Archers must have a Longbow or Shortbow equipped to toggle on the Imbues from that tree. Equipping something other than a Longbow or Shortbow in your main hand will cause Arcane Archer Imbues to toggle off.

(Edit: We've made some changes to how this fix is implemented. See this link.)


For a very long time now, it's been possible to use Arcane Archer toggles with weapons that aren't bows. These abilities, by their wording, are only meant to work with Bows, but there are currently ways of getting around that and applying those effects to other weapons. The pass to Rangers circa Update 28 put some changes in place to stop this that were ultimately unsuccessful. We are interested in creating better balance between Bows, Crossbows, and other forms of ranged combat in the long term. In order to make that balance work, we need to finally fix Arcane Archer to work as it is intended to.


Warlocks
With U36, the following changes are being made to Warlocks:

• Warlocks now receive Eldritch Blast base dice feats at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20 (for a total of 6d6 at level 20) instead of their previous progression. Characters will be automatically adjusted to match this new progression.
• The Epic Eldritch Blast feat now grants 3d6 to Eldritch Blast.
• The Epic Arcane Eldritch Blast Destiny feat now grants 4d6 to Eldritch Blast.
• In Enlightened Spirit, Eldritch Burst's additional Light damage is now 1d6.
• In Enlightened Spirit, Spirit Blast's additional Light damage is now 4d6.
• In Enlightened Spirit, Spiritual Retribution's Light damage on all Eldritch Blasts and Weapon Attacks is now 1d4/2d4/3d4.

Internal and live data gathering has led to the conclusion that Warlock DPS is unquestionably too high in Heroic. It isn't simply a matter of their damage output relative to other classes (which is also too high), it's a matter of their power relative to content and other factors involved in overall game balance. Tuning other classes up to their level isn't an option; Warlock damage in Heroic needs to come down.

The above change alters the levels at which Warlocks add 1d6 to their base Eldritch Blast. On Live currently, when they reach level 20 they have 9d6; this change alters that to 6d6. To balance that against Epics, the two available Eldritch Blast feats have been increased to 3d6 and 4d6 (a net gain of +3d6, the same value that was removed from Heroics). As a result, by the time a Warlock reaches level 26, they can have exactly as many dice as they can get now.

The Enlightened Spirit changes bring the extra damage granted by these abilities closer in line with abilities in other classes. Having playtested with the changes, these abilities remain very potent.


Spell Resistance
With U36, the following changes are being made to Spell Resistance:

• Drow and Deep Gnome's Spell Resistance now stacks with all other sources of Spell Resistance.
• The majority of item-based sources of Spell Resistance have had their values reduced by about 1/3.
• Fury of the Wild's Ward against Weird ability is now a Primal bonus to Spell Resistance (stacking with most other sources) and has new values (5/30/60).

In the U36 cycle, we set out to finally make Drow and Deep Gnome's racial Spell Resistance stack with other sources (as we said we would after the recent Race Tree pass). In analyzing the numbers involved, it came to our attention that the math used to determine what values new Cannith Crafting, new Lootgen, and recent Named Items calculated Spell Resistance at was wrong. As a result, the numbers available were much higher than we were comfortable with before adding in stacking Drow and Deep Gnomes.

With this change, a character without racial SR equipping maximum available sources of SR should be within striking distance of the necessary SR to resist high-difficulty monsters' spells. It will be very difficult (if not impossible at certain ranges) to get a no-fail value on those characters in high difficulties. With Drow and Deep Gnome values now stacking, however, those characters can much more easily compete against enemy spells.


Aggro & Stealth
With U36, the following changes are being made to Aggro and Stealth:

• Monsters will take the distance of their targets into account now. Closer targets are more likely to be targeted (assuming they have not yet taken much damage) compared to Live.
• If a monster kills or loses their primary target, they’ll now aggro correctly on who has the most hate next (as opposed to the closest target, as they often do now on Live).
• Monsters with the “see stealthed” property will now display an angry red eye icon to anyone observing them in stealth. Note: The see through stealth property, aka “tremor sense” is not True Sight or See Invisible. Those abilities don’t actually don’t affect sight checks against players just using the stealth skill. For example, Spiders and Slimes typically have the See Through Stealth property, per 3.5 edition rules. Red- and Purple-name bosses also tend to get this ability.

These changes were the result of listening closely to player feedback and examination of monster AI in regards to stealth gameplay.


Area of Effect Spells
With U36, most Area of Effect spells cast by enemies (such as Ice Storm and Web) now have visible indicators of their boundaries on the ground. This should make more clear where enemy effects begin and end, and improve players' ability to analyze the battlefield.

[cru121]

In Enlightened Spirit, Spiritual Retribution's Light damage on all Eldritch Blasts is now 1d4/2d4/3d4.

Does it remain at 3d6 as extra weapon damage, or is that portion also toned down to 3d4?

[Steelstar]

Does it remain at 3d6 as extra weapon damage, or is that portion also toned down to 3d4?

It affects weapons also. Apologies for the omission, updated the OP.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

i like

[QuantumFX]

Spell Resistance
With U36, the following changes are being made to Spell Resistance:

• Drow and Deep Gnome's Spell Resistance now stacks with all other sources of Spell Resistance.
• The majority of item-based sources of Spell Resistance have had their values reduced by about 1/3.
• Fury of the Wild's Ward against Weird ability is now a Primal bonus to Spell Resistance (stacking with most other sources) and has new values (5/30/60).

In the U36 cycle, we set out to finally make Drow and Deep Gnome's racial Spell Resistance stack with other sources (as we said we would after the recent Race Tree pass). In analyzing the numbers involved, it came to our attention that the math used to determine what values new Cannith Crafting, new Lootgen, and recent Named Items calculated Spell Resistance at was wrong. As a result, the numbers available were much higher than we were comfortable with before adding in stacking Drow and Deep Gnomes.

With this change, a character without racial SR equipping maximum available sources of SR should be within striking distance of the necessary SR to resist high-difficulty monsters' spells. It will be very difficult (if not impossible at certain ranges) to get a no-fail value on those characters in high difficulties. With Drow and Deep Gnome values now stacking, however, those characters can much more easily compete against enemy spells.

Translation: Hey guys, we’re taking two steps backwards on the whole S.R. thing! Hope you enjoyed it for the few months that we allowed it to factor into your character plans!

Making it “stack” makes zero sense. What you’re telling players is “Have racial S.R., or never expect to see the blue hemispherical again.” What you should be doing is making basic racial S.R. and basic Cannith crafting S.R. the same bonus and have them scale at the same pace. This allows Drow/Deep Gnome characters to skip equipping the basic SR gear, and allows them to buff their SR score thru racial cores.

[Morroiel]

Translation: Hey guys, we’re taking two steps backwards on the whole S.R. thing! Hope you enjoyed it for the few months that we allowed it to factor into your character plans!

Making it “stack” makes zero sense. What you’re telling players is “Have racial S.R., or never expect to see the blue hemispherical again.” What you should be doing is making basic racial S.R. and basic Cannith crafting S.R. the same bonus and have them scale at the same pace. This allows Drow/Deep Gnome characters to skip equipping the basic SR gear, and allows them to buff their SR score thru racial cores.

We haven't seen the actual numbers. What I'd like to see is drows/deep gnomes/monks being able to get no-fail SR, whereas items only provide 35-65%. Eliminating a prefix/suffix slot IS not enough of an advantage for me to go deep gnome, drow - imo.

[Ulfo]

RIP Drow before with "fix" Darkfire, RIP Elf now with fix AA-imbue. And another Warlock boost (because after "fix" ES tree no one will play ES and turn to more powerful trees ). Nice work...

[Grace_ana]

Warlocks
With U36, the following changes are being made to Warlocks:

• Warlocks now receive Eldritch Blast base dice feats at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20 (for a total of 6d6 at level 20) instead of their previous progression. Characters will be automatically adjusted to match this new progression.
• The Epic Eldritch Blast feat now grants 3d6 to Eldritch Blast.
• The Epic Arcane Eldritch Blast Destiny feat now grants 4d6 to Eldritch Blast.
• In Enlightened Spirit, Eldritch Burst's additional Light damage is now 1d6.
• In Enlightened Spirit, Spirit Blast's additional Light damage is now 4d6.
• In Enlightened Spirit, Spiritual Retribution's Light damage on all Eldritch Blasts and Weapon Attacks is now 1d4/2d4/3d4.

Internal and live data gathering has led to the conclusion that Warlock DPS is unquestionably too high in Heroic. It isn't simply a matter of their damage output relative to other classes (which is also too high), it's a matter of their power relative to content and other factors involved in overall game balance. Tuning other classes up to their level isn't an option; Warlock damage in Heroic needs to come down.

The above change alters the levels at which Warlocks add 1d6 to their base Eldritch Blast. On Live currently, when they reach level 20 they have 9d6; this change alters that to 6d6. To balance that against Epics, the two available Eldritch Blast feats have been increased to 3d6 and 4d6 (a net gain of +3d6, the same value that was removed from Heroics). As a result, by the time a Warlock reaches level 26, they can have exactly as many dice as they can get now.

The Enlightened Spirit changes bring the extra damage granted by these abilities closer in line with abilities in other classes.

This is a ridiculously huge nerf. Removing more than half of the light damage?? That's insane. Plus, that damage isn't given back in epics.

I get there is a very loud "we hate warlocks" crowd. Warlock is strong for a caster class, but overall I don't see them being any stronger than other classes than have received their pass. You say you can't bring the power of other classes up to that level, but sorc isn't too far behind, and the proposed domains for cleric would zoom way past where warlocks are on live.

I've played a lot of classes and builds, and warlock wasn't my most powerful. I really think you should reconosider this.

[MistaMagic]

This is a ridiculously huge nerf. Removing more than half of the light damage?? That's insane. Plus, that damage isn't given back in epics.

I get there is a very loud "we hate warlocks" crowd. Warlock is strong for a caster class, but overall I don't see them being any stronger than other classes than have received their pass. You say you can't bring the power of other classes up to that level, but sorc isn't too far behind, and the proposed domains for cleric would zoom way past where warlocks are on live.

I've played a lot of classes and builds, and warlock wasn't my most powerful. I really think you should reconosider this.

No its about time

[Gratch]

So will current in-use named item/lootgen/cannith crafted automatically reduce their bonus in our inventories/banks/etc? Or is it just that under the covers all new U36+ versions of SR beneficial items will use a new "SR+ effect type" and only that new "SR+ effect type" will stack with Drow/Gnome's SR?

SHOULD I BE CRAFTING SR GEAR FOR MY NonDROW/GNOMEs NOW NOW NOW?

I didn't know if you could scale already created/crafted gear. What about much older SR gear before the great-upwards-cannith-redo-rescaling? Will those also be scaled by 66%? Will the divine spell "Spell Resistance" also stack with racial sources as though it's an item replacement? How does Monk's Diamond Soul fit into the equation?

[carsonfball]

This is a ridiculously huge nerf. Removing more than half of the light damage?? That's insane. Plus, that damage isn't given back in epics.

I get there is a very loud "we hate warlocks" crowd. Warlock is strong for a caster class, but overall I don't see them being any stronger than other classes than have received their pass. You say you can't bring the power of other classes up to that level, but sorc isn't too far behind, and the proposed domains for cleric would zoom way past where warlocks are on live.

I've played a lot of classes and builds, and warlock wasn't my most powerful. I really think you should reconosider this.

Agreed.

[Eldarlyn]

This is a ridiculously huge nerf. Removing more than half of the light damage?? That's insane. Plus, that damage isn't given back in epics.

I get there is a very loud "we hate warlocks" crowd. Warlock is strong for a caster class, but overall I don't see them being any stronger than other classes than have received their pass. You say you can't bring the power of other classes up to that level, but sorc isn't too far behind, and the proposed domains for cleric would zoom way past where warlocks are on live.

I've played a lot of classes and builds, and warlock wasn't my most powerful. I really think you should reconosider this.

Agreed!! This is a huge step back. If you don't like Warlocks then don't play one or have them in your party, end of story, time to move on. I love playing my Warlock because it is actually my one character where I can actually excel and have a chance at some dungeons, to gimp them in this way is horrible and will make me rethink playing this game. My Warlock is actually my favorite character by far, and before I built him I thought I would not like playing a spell caster like that but that changed because I actually had 1/2 a chance to play harder dungeons without giving up. Remember, their armor class is lower than a lot of other classes so even though they maybe able to dish out some damage if they are built right, they cannot go head to head in combat like a fighter. Each class has their own pros and cons and that is what draws people to like to play certain ones over others, totally gimping this one is a really bad idea, please reconsider.

On a side note, since this game was bought out earlier this year there have been no sales on DDO points, this coupled with gimping my favorite character class is going to make me reconsider how I spend my time and money....if it is no fun to play then time to go elsewhere.

[Morroiel]

My thoughts / initial impressions:

Arcane archer changes - 8/10 - Overall it has been a long time coming, high rate of fire on shurikens makes elemental imbues flat out broken. The only thing I'd urge you to consider is going the opposite way with this. Streamlining support for elemental imbues on all ranged weapons (cross bows included) -> but allow the base damage die (d2 vs d6, etc) of the weapon used to influence the damage caused by the imbues. This allows for more build options while still allowing you to bring into line shurikens high rate of fire vs bows slow rate of fire. Additionally if you are going to balance ranged builds, you need to also finally create parity between elven tree and ranger tree - I know you are aware of the issue with final strike, if you are going to make arcane archer changes - this needs to be included (as its one of the most influential reasons why shuriken builds have been completely out of balance since the introduction of said ability). Lastly, I would hope that you'd consider reverting your nerf to paralyzing arrow (allowing perma paralysis) due to it no longer being able to be used by shurikens. Shuriken builds need to be brought in line in order for there to be some semblance of balance at endgame.

Warlock changes - 10/10 on ES changes, 4/10 on general warlock blast changes - People don't realize this but warlocks are actually somewhat difficult to play well. I've said my fill with them and that's fine. I think you are missing the real power of warlock in heroic but your changes are inline with what the mob-crowd demands: they think ES is the bees knees, crippling it won't do anything to good warlock players and yet will hopefully tune down the # of warlock threads. I call this a win. I do think making changes like this will negatively impact build diversity in warlocks - you'll still get people who use ES but the % will steadily drop. I'd probably keep in mind that they might need further nerfage on their damage abilities in the ES tree to compensate for some unique/utility buffage elsewhere, bringing Shining through back up 1 notch, etc. On the actual warlock blast changes, you correctly identified the problem: warlocks do too much damage in heroics, on par in epic, and not enough at endgame. I'd recommend using this opportunity to slightly buff their endgame damage by adding 1 or 2 additional blast die in the epic destiny feat. Lastly as a whole, I think these changes are a step in the right direction but you fundamentally missed the biggest reason people play warlock: it is easy to play at a functional level. People will still play warlocks simply because they can't handle reaper on other builds due to their lack of skill / game knowledge. I'd wager the arti and divine passes might pull a few people away from warlock but for the most part your internal data should reflect what I'm saying. People like warlocks in heroic reaper because they do enough damage to clear content fast, they are survivable (especially the ES variants), and ultimately you don't have to understand their full depth to make it through content.

Aggro/Stealth changes - 9/10 - you are going in the right direction and it is good that you are recognizing some of the issues. Stealth play right now is broken - there are enough threads on the matter that I'm not going to get into it. I'd encourage you to look at 3 things (as options for stealth players): 1) please re-evaluate bluff dcs, I thoroughly tested bluff single-mob-pulling at endgame with an adequately maxed bluff skill (152) and I got variable behavior on the same mob, at the same x,y,z coordinate, on the same dice roll. Additionally bluff in reaper seems incredibly useless. 2) auto-fail stealth, ala tremor sense, needs to behave more appropriate to its name: a spider might have tremor sense but then how come the troll next to him knows where I'm at (spiders can't speak troll....), if I'm in wraith form, I'm technically not touching the ground and tremor sense shouldn't work, lastly tremor sense should have an even further reduced range then it currently does. 3) please discontinue making quests that require kill-all mobs to get through barrier; a compromise for this might be that the barrier has to be pulled by a mob (ala alarm) and if a stealth player can avoid aggroing the mobs they can bypass the barrier.

Overall, I like the direction that these changes make but I feel you slightly missed an opportunity with the arcane archer to nerf it in a way that allows build diversity, as well as, missed a huge portion of what makes warlock strong in heroics (though to be honest nerfing ES might be one of my favorite changes in a while just so that people stop putting up a new warlock nerf thread every 2 seconds); additionally, I really like that you've addressed the fact that there are issues with stealth/aggro and are working on fixing it (even if its not the exact fix that I'd like).

Edit: Until I see the actual changes regarding spell resistance numbers and the aoe effect indicator, I'm going to withhold judgement on those.

[dragons1ayer74]

U36 Rise of the Nerfs

Wow it is mass nerfs like these that caused my last vacation form the game. Warlocks aren't the problem lack/broken other options and inflated trash mob hitpoints are. Big win for everyone who has all/most of their racials done, more hill to climb for everyone else. Usually I look forward to updates not at all looking forward to this, I never did get to try out a monkacher sigh

[CThruTheEgo]

Overall I like the changes, but I do have a question about this one:

Arcane Archers must have a Longbow or Shortbow equipped to toggle on the Imbues from that tree. Equipping something other than a Longbow or Shortbow in your main hand will cause Arcane Archer Imbues to toggle off.

So every time an AA build swaps to a scroll for healing oneself or others (or a scroll for buffing, or one of the many weapon clickies available, etc.), the imbues must be turned back on again? If that is how it will work, then this is problematic. I understand why you are doing this and I don't disagree with the goal, but this is not a good or viable solution if that is what will happen.

EDIT: And regarding the stealth changes, will an alerted mob share its agro with every other mob in a given range, effectively agroing all those mobs on the stealthed player even when the other mobs have not made a check to detect the stealthed player? That has been the real problem with stealth, and I don't see any mention of that here.

[Morroiel]

Overall I like the changes, but I do have a question about this one:



So every time an AA build swaps to a scroll for healing oneself or others (or a scroll for buffing, or one of the many weapon clickies available, etc.), the imbues must be turned back on again? If that is how it will work, then this is problematic. I understand why you are doing this and I don't disagree with the goal, but this is not a good or viable solution if that is what will happen.

EDIT: And regarding the stealth changes, will an alerted mob share its agro with every other mob in a given range, effectively agroing all those mobs on the stealthed player even when the other mobs have not made a check to detect the stealthed player? That has been the real problem with stealth, and I don't see any mention of that here.

I proposed in my feedback a different solution to AA imbues that would allow shurikens and xbow users to still utilize them. You bring up a big point about scrolls - though honestly that could easily be added to the list of allowed weapons. Still this seems like a lot of extra checks, generating lag and server load that wouldn't otherwise have to be there. This makes it even more evident that a solution in the vein that I suggest is more appropriate.

I agree to an extent about aggro sharing, as it is one of the biggest things that has ruined stealth play - however, it makes sense when you are talking about monsters who can talk and point to the stealth-identified player (troll A telling troll B that player is skulking around in the shadows over there, giving him a MASSIVE boost to spot). It does not make sense when you are talking about an elemental and a spider who have no way of talking with one another.

[icekinslayer]

I proposed in my feedback a different solution to AA imbues that would allow shurikens and xbow users to still utilize them.

Exactly opposite of the proposed change. Imbues are for shortbows and longbows only. Nice one. You also said warlocks weren't the most powerful class you've played, so I can kind of understand why you said what you said.

[PermaBanned]

The reason you need to also move pact die to epics is that people will still trivialize heroics on a warlock. They will just use SE or TS instead. You have to to hit the core pact die or we will just be having this exact same conversation a day after update 36.

Perhaps.

However I do think it's worth noting - or at least I find it interesting anyway - that "Warlocks" as a class are getting (imo ofc) a slight nerf of -3d6 Eldritch Blast dice, which in turn is only a permanantly nerf for those who took neither of the available feats where the dice were relocated. (Again: not trying to down-play it, just calling it as I see it.)

And yet, while the rest of the "Warlock dps nerfs" are specifically targeted at the Enlightened Spirit tree they're being called out as nerfs on the whole of the Warlock class - hard for me to see it that way when my Warlock will be exactly the same post update as it is now. (Yes, because its a zero ES investment 'Lock who already has both feats.)


For me, the most important lesson here - for the Devs as much as the players - is that this is all the result of short-sightedness. Had the Devs made-and-stuck-with a plan of how much character power (DPS/Survivability) they wanted to have available via Classes & Enhancements, kept the AP cost of attaining it relative from one-to-the next, then moved ahead with all their Class Passes before revisiting with Class Tweeks - but not done any of that until after making their base systems changes/additions with things like P/MRR & R/MPwr we wouldn't be in half this mess.

Warlocks are on their 4th round of nerfs, while Bard/Swashbuckler (the showcase/baseline for their plans moving forward {at the time}) is both hidiously AP expensive (multiple 2 AP 1/2/3 abilities) and yet offers no Melee/Ranged Power or P/MRR. This is why we can't have nice things: the Devs themselves don't seem to have decided what "properly powered" actually is...

[Steelstar]

So every time an AA build swaps to a scroll for healing oneself or others (or a scroll for buffing, or one of the many weapon clickies available, etc.), the imbues must be turned back on again? If that is how it will work, then this is problematic. I understand why you are doing this and I don't disagree with the goal, but this is not a good or viable solution if that is what will happen.

We're working on letting Wands and Scrolls work through this without turning the toggles off.