Upcoming Systems Changes for U36

[Renvar]

lol are you serious? Really R1 is all about reducing XP grind if reaper was not about reducing XP grind reaper would have only got reaper XP and 0 regular XP. If that would have happened only a few players would play reaper at all it needed to be better xp to entice players to run it.

Lol. Are you serious? You think people who are running reaper (on higher skulls than R1) care about regular XP?

Here's a hint for you if you want to run reaper:

Reaper Tree Power > Epic PL > Iconic/Heroic/Racial PL's.

If you want to be able to run higher skulls and not die constantly, you need to earn Reaper XP. People who are interested in reaper aren't running 1-20 because it gets them quest XP. They are doing it because it gets them first time reaper bonuses. Once the first time reaper XP bonuses stop, they reset with a TR and start over. Sure it helps that they can earn R-PL's at the same time (or H-PL's if they had not finished their heroic lives), but that is gravy.

But the idea that they would put out Reaper to create a challenging difficulty and then BUFF every class but warlocks to remove a good portion of that challenge and make it easier doesn't make sense and was just a poorly thought out comment. Clearly that would be counter to the goals of the developer in creating Reaper. The idea that they would put out Reaper and then tone down the easy button tree in the easy button class so that reaper continues to have some challenge, even as players are starting to climb the reaper XP trees does make sense. And is consistent with the stated goals of the developers for Reaper.

Also, Lol. Are you serious? Talking about R1 in a reaper discussion? R1 is training wheels Reaper. You can run R1 with any build and any class. It is pretty much just elite with a 40% free quest XP bump. Mentioning R1 in a discussion about reaper difficulty has as much value as talking to Allen Iverson about practice... Because R1 is practice. Not the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGDBR2L5kzI

[Arctigis]

The only thing getting nerfed is the es tree

Which is already sub par compared to the other 2 trees so

How does this fix anything

Blast+Pact Dice:

                    L1            L4            L8            L12            L16            L20               
Before:             1D6           2D6+2D4       4D6+4D4       6D6+6D4        7D6+8D4        9D6+10D4
After:              1D6           2D6+2D4       3D6+4D4       4D6+6D4        5D6+8D4        6D6+10D4
Avg % decrease      0             0             14.6          19.4           15.7           19.8        

Blasters are affected by these proposals. The above obviously doesn't consider
the effect of extra pact damage from TS and extra light damage procs from
ES.

[mr420247]

**** thats horrible blast dps is already horrible since the last round of dps nerfs

So why isn't cone tree getting a single **** nerf

[Phoenicis]

Blast+Pact Dice:

                    L1            L4            L8            L12            L16            L20               
Before:             1D6           2D6+2D4       4D6+4D4       6D6+6D4        7D6+8D4        9D6+10D4
After:              1D6           2D6+2D4       3D6+4D4       4D6+6D4        5D6+8D4        6D6+10D4
Avg % decrease      0             0             14.6          19.4           15.7           19.8        

Blasters are affected by these proposals. The above obviously doesn't consider
the effect of extra pact damage from TS and extra light damage procs from
ES.

You can discount the extra light damage from ES now, no one I know would spend 12 AP for 3d4.
Burst and blast no longer add significant damage, and are not worth the AP to unlock IMHO.
I can see myself spending the absolute minimum in ES to get Shield and the 'all resistance' SLA and done.
I'll no longer take utterdark, unless I plan on using consume and stricken, which I usually don't, the cooldowns are just to long to be useful IMHO.
So instead of needing light/alignment I'll need force spellpower to go with the element, saving me 2AP in TS.
The entire line of extra pact damage is now more viable with the minimal expenditure in ES.
Depending on if you are going DC or cone/chain will determine which tree you emphasize, but ES is, IMHO, dead.

[mr420247]

Which is what i have been saying and the

fact its the worst of all 3 trees is messed up

How many locks you see bursting r8-10 runs

None at all really ok then

[Renvar]

**** thats horrible blast dps is already horrible since the last round of dps nerfs

So why isn't cone tree getting a single **** nerf

Maybe because the cone tree(Soul Eater) is not out of balance as a tree and the ES tree had too much power in one tree. Look at other classes:

Fighter has a Kensai tree for DPS, a Stalwart Tree for defense, and a Vanguard tree to cater to sword and board. How much DPS is in the Stalwart Tree? Almost none. How much defense is in Kensai? Almost none.

Cleric has a Warpriest tree for defense and melee DPS, a Divine Disciple Tree for offensive spell casting, and a Radiant Servant for healing. How much offensive spell casting is in the Warpriest tree? Almost none. How much defense is in DD? Almost none.

Warlock's ES tree is supposed to be a melee/defense tree. But the tree has a lot of stuff that does DPS with light spell power, the blasts and bursts. The other trees are designed around casting and blast DPS. This tree should not be giving out all the defense AND offense in one tree. Because it creates no trade offs. Like in Fighter. I can't get the best defense (tier 5 of SD) and the best offense (tier 5 of Kensai) and I only get one capstone. But if you put great defense and offense all in one tree...

This tree has 50 Light SP in it, 22 USP in it, 3d6 add on to all blast damage, and the Spirit Blast, Eldritich Burst special attacks. That is a lot of DPS to put in one tree with all that MRR, PRR, HP, Temp HP, Heal Amp, Medium Armor Proficiency, etc. Rebalancing the tree back to being more focused on melee, the aura, and defense makes sense.

if you want to do warlock DPS, the options still exist. You just have to go into another tree to get them. Honestly, most end game players are putting very few points in ES anyways. Because the real offensive power of warlock DPS comes from SE and TS, as it should.

The reality is that this "nerf" to ES tree special attacks doesn't really nerf the class. Any more than nerfing longsword damage output would matter for khopesh wielding fighters.

[mr420247]

You mean like how the completely useless summons slas are so op in the tree ya right

[Arctigis]

This tree has 50 Light SP in it, 22 USP in it, 3d6 add on to all blast damage, and the Spirit Blast, Eldritich Burst special attacks. That is a lot of DPS to put in one tree with all that MRR, PRR, HP, Temp HP, Heal Amp, Medium Armor Proficiency, etc. Rebalancing the tree back to being more focused on melee, the aura, and defense makes sense.

You have to remember that aura is a toggle which disables blasting. Every pure ES auralock I've
seen is not built for melee at all and just swing weapons for fun. So this 'massive DPS' is
an aura that ticks once every 2s (but you need to be L18+ for that) and the two bursts
which both have 5s cooldowns . The only other form of direct damage is Tentacles or
SLAs from the other trees such as consume/stricken/stunning blast. There's also no
way to do burst damage (i.e. manyshot, 10k stars, haste boost etc.). The only reason
to take this tree to T5 now is Shining Through - and a blasting lock doesn't need that.
The something 15/lock 5 splash for this is now also dead IMO as the bursts don't do
enough damage to warrant giving up 5 class levels of something else. Ranger 20,
Fighter 20 both pound an ES splash into the dust in terms of DPS.

No melee is going to touch this tree for anything other than flavour IMO.

The reality is that this "nerf" to ES tree special attacks doesn't really nerf the class.
Any more than nerfing longsword damage output would matter for khopesh wielding fighters.

No it doesn't. Which is why it's hilarious - looking forward to the new wave of nerf
conelock/necrolock threads.

[Arctigis]

You can discount the extra light damage from ES now, no one I know would spend 12 AP for 3d4.

Agreed. It's why I left it off.

Burst and blast no longer add significant damage, and are not worth the AP to unlock IMHO.
I can see myself spending the absolute minimum in ES to get Shield and the 'all resistance' SLA and done.
I'll no longer take utterdark, unless I plan on using consume and stricken, which I usually don't, the cooldowns are just to long to be useful IMHO.
So instead of needing light/alignment I'll need force spellpower to go with the element, saving me 2AP in TS.
The entire line of extra pact damage is now more viable with the minimal expenditure in ES.
Depending on if you are going DC or cone/chain will determine which tree you emphasize, but ES is, IMHO, dead.

Again, agreed.

[mr420247]

Basically

[ice584]

I'm on a phone so maybe I missed it. I think you need to factor in spellpower too.

You're correct, I did not factor in spellpower. However, since spellpower is a percentage bonus to damage across the board, it doesn't change the variation.

If you have 0 spellpower:
100 damage + 0% * 100 = 100 damage
50 damage + 0% * 50 = 50 damage

If you have 100 spellpower:
100 damage + 100% * 100 = 200 damage
50 damage + 100% * 50 = 100 damage

If you have 200 spellpower:
100 damage + 200% * 100 = 300 damage
50 damage + 200% * 50 = 150 damage

So as you can see in the example, it's still a 50% reduction end result in every case.

[dragons1ayer74]

Lol. Are you serious? You think people who are running reaper (on higher skulls than R1) care about regular XP?

Here's a hint for you if you want to run reaper:

Reaper Tree Power > Epic PL > Iconic/Heroic/Racial PL's.

If you want to be able to run higher skulls and not die constantly, you need to earn Reaper XP. People who are interested in reaper aren't running 1-20 because it gets them quest XP. They are doing it because it gets them first time reaper bonuses. Once the first time reaper XP bonuses stop, they reset with a TR and start over. Sure it helps that they can earn R-PL's at the same time (or H-PL's if they had not finished their heroic lives), but that is gravy.

But the idea that they would put out Reaper to create a challenging difficulty and then BUFF every class but warlocks to remove a good portion of that challenge and make it easier doesn't make sense and was just a poorly thought out comment. Clearly that would be counter to the goals of the developer in creating Reaper. The idea that they would put out Reaper and then tone down the easy button tree in the easy button class so that reaper continues to have some challenge, even as players are starting to climb the reaper XP trees does make sense. And is consistent with the stated goals of the developers for Reaper.

Also, Lol. Are you serious? Talking about R1 in a reaper discussion? R1 is training wheels Reaper. You can run R1 with any build and any class. It is pretty much just elite with a 40% free quest XP bump. Mentioning R1 in a discussion about reaper difficulty has as much value as talking to Allen Iverson about practice... Because R1 is practice. Not the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGDBR2L5kzI

You failed your reading check I never mentioned reaper xp I was speaking strictly of R1 as a way to reduce regular XP grind; which as implemented is exactly what it is for some players. This is not a challenge for many builds/players it is a way to reduce xp grind.

This:"Reaper Tree Power > Epic PL > Iconic/Heroic/Racial PL's" is your opinion and the opinion of some others but certainly far from the opinion of everyone!

I can't say for certain I will never run reaper for strictly reaper xp (or with a focus of reaper xp) but I am not anywhere close to that in my current play cycles for me XP>>Reaper XP.

[sirgog]

Warlock is the only option viable for grinding the colossal amount of Reaper XP in the game as the state of the game right now. In stead of rising the power of other classes , to make other classes more attractive , to give players more choices to run with when grinding out the massive grind ( RTR\RXP in addition to HTR), you took away power from player base. GReat decision - great for killing the game and give yourself an opportunity to look for a new job.. Time to be honest to yourself ! : ITS NOT WARLOCK THATS OP , ITS RATHER ALL THE OTHER CLASSES THATS UP (underpowered) compare to Champs with Ozillion buffs , Reapers that one shot you.

WHY NOT KEEP warlock AS IT IS , AND ADD MORE POWER TO ALL OTHER CLASSES? you will surely have a bigger playerbase and getting more subs that way!

Anyway
Good luck with the changes

Remember the period where DDO went into sharp decline, after MOTU had been out for a good while?

That was the period of massive power creep. Developers refusing to make necessary nerfs, instead buffing everything else. Character power went up ridiculous amounts.

What happened? We had nothing to do any more, because god characters turned all the old endgame into a snoozefest. 12 person PUGs used to fail EE ADQ2 early in MOTU, after destinies got capped nearly everyone could solo it. This effectively deleted the content from the game entirely, and thousands quit.

SSG have a choice: hit the cancer that is OP heroic Warlocks with chemotherapy, or the game will pay for their inaction.

[mr420247]

Ok that is understandable but these nerfs are completely pointless

And will not change a thing except make the es tree useless so 1 playstyle will be removed

A play style thats only even half decent up to r4-5 any way no one bursts r7s-10s ever

Now if they want to remove brilliance or shining through fine do that but nerfing the trees dps is pointless

when the cone tree is completely untouched with 200 percent more dps

[Rausdauer]

Very well said.



After listening to other players, I'm actually thinking Reaper needs a bump. Make it a bit harder after 5 skulls (arbitrary #) along with some of the "nerfs" then the power gamers will have a tougher challenge.

The amount of dps reduction for warlocks isn't that big of a change or sacrifice. I guarantee they will still be OP, just like they are in PnP.

I agree.

Reaper 10 should be near impossible.

And if 10 groups complete it.. they should bump it up more.

[Phoenicis]

I agree.

Reaper 10 should be near impossible.

And if 10 groups complete it.. they should bump it up more.

Apply raid rules to reaper.

No res cakes, no hires.

[carsonfball]

This is a ridiculously huge nerf. Removing more than half of the light damage?? That's insane. Plus, that damage isn't given back in epics.

I get there is a very loud "we hate warlocks" crowd. Warlock is strong for a caster class, but overall I don't see them being any stronger than other classes than have received their pass. You say you can't bring the power of other classes up to that level, but sorc isn't too far behind, and the proposed domains for cleric would zoom way past where warlocks are on live.

I've played a lot of classes and builds, and warlock wasn't my most powerful. I really think you should reconosider this.

Agreed.

[Arctigis]

You're correct, I did not factor in spellpower. However, since spellpower is a percentage bonus to damage across the board, it doesn't change the variation.

If you have 0 spellpower:
100 damage + 0% * 100 = 100 damage
50 damage + 0% * 50 = 50 damage

If you have 100 spellpower:
100 damage + 100% * 100 = 200 damage
50 damage + 100% * 50 = 100 damage

If you have 200 spellpower:
100 damage + 200% * 100 = 300 damage
50 damage + 200% * 50 = 150 damage

So as you can see in the example, it's still a 50% reduction end result in every case.

Yes, I clarified what I meant in an earlier post. I think context with the numbers is
important - I can't type well on a phone ;-). i.e. 15% doesn't sound too bad, doing
170 less damage - 370 on a crit, sounds adds more context IMO.

[Fecerak]

You have to remember that aura is a toggle which disables blasting. Every pure ES auralock I've
seen is not built for melee at all and just swing weapons for fun. So this 'massive DPS' is
an aura that ticks once every 2s (but you need to be L18+ for that) and the two bursts
which both have 5s cooldowns . The only other form of direct damage is Tentacles or
SLAs from the other trees such as consume/stricken/stunning blast. There's also no
way to do burst damage (i.e. manyshot, 10k stars, haste boost etc.). The only reason
to take this tree to T5 now is Shining Through - and a blasting lock doesn't need that.
The something 15/lock 5 splash for this is now also dead IMO as the bursts don't do
enough damage to warrant giving up 5 class levels of something else. Ranger 20,
Fighter 20 both pound an ES splash into the dust in terms of DPS.

No melee is going to touch this tree for anything other than flavour IMO.



No it doesn't. Which is why it's hilarious - looking forward to the new wave of nerf
conelock/necrolock threads.

Per 10 seconds you get 5 aura tics, 2 blasts and 2 bursts. That's effectively 9 effects that's individually almost at the power level of a sorcerer fireball or whatever. This costs you 4 of the 10 seconds to use, meaning you have time for 6 additional abilities in the 10 seconds. Meanwhile the actual sorcerer gets to cast 10 spells in those 10 seconds. So arguing that ES attacks really slowly is just wrong IMO, considering you basically have roughly 90% of the casting speed that the sorcerer would have, and that's if you just afk for the last 6 seconds. Of course, the sorcerer will probably do a bit more damage per cast, but in exchange you get a LOT of survivability, flexibility, and free time to throw out CC/self-heals/whatever you want to do.

[mr420247]

Sorc hasn't had its **** pass yet

Compare the dps per min to any updated class you want