Warlocks in heroics

[Enoach]

Hello, I finally decided to start my own thread about warlocks

So first of all, I will state my reasons why I think warlocks are OP in heroics and some ideas how to balance them out. I'm talking about heroics not epics. So the proposed "nerfs" won't effect warlocks performance in epics.

Warlocks get spells to early.
- wail of banshee/mass hold on lvl 16? Before the wizards get it??
- finger of death and circle of death same time as wizzy?
I always though that arcane spells should be aquired in the following order:
1) wizards
2) sorcerer
3) warlock and bard
Fix: modify spell progression table (e.g. levl 6 spells on lvl 19 instead of 16, after wizard and sorcerer)

One thing to consider when spells are granted early is that many aspects of the spell are limited by Spell Level of the class they are granted.

Spells like Wail of the Banshee and mass hold are limited to the Spell DCs of a 6th Level Spell. In core rules different classes get the same spells at different spell levels. Getting a spell one level before the wizard and 2 levels before sorcerer is not as big an issue as some make it out to be. As prior to this Wizard and Sorcerer have access to other spells.

Spirit blasts to much damage
Not much to add here. Insane damage on heroics with metas on.
Fix: Remove metamagics but increase spellower to 150%. Result: lower damage on heroics, and higher damage on epics (600 light spellower -> 900 light spellower, so increase of 300, more than maximize + empower).

This is an interesting idea to remove the metamagics from these abilities. But I don't think it will solve the issue unless you also remove it from other abilities in other trees that can also be meta'd.

To me the question needs to include two other aspects - How Often? and How Far does it reach?

All considerations on this and Eldritch blast needs to take all three aspects into consideration and make adjustments so that it is still useful but not something that points all builds to these abilities

Eldritch blast to much damage.
Fix:Increase casting time by 50%. This will affect epics to, so to counter that, continue the Eldritch Blast damage increase to epic levels as well ("deals 1d6 damage at level 1, and increases by +1d6 at Warlock level 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 14, 17, and 20; for a total of 9d6 at level 20". Change to: 3,5,7,9,11,14,17,20,22,24,26,28,30 which is 13d6 by lvl 30, 50% more than it is at this moment.

See above

Shining through
Fix: Increase HP gain (even 20xcon is OK), but increase cooldown to atleast 2 minutes.

Changes here need to be made based on how SSG intends this ability to be used going forward. Do they intend it to be a temporary shield? reduce the time it lasts. Do they intend it to be a way to "self heal" reduce the cooldown.

So how do you like the ideas? Do you think some of those things aren't to strong in heroics? Have more things to add?

It is not necessarily what is needed, but it is a point to launch discussion if used that way.

[Enoach]

i love the people who try to debate whether or not warlocks in heroics are OP or not. like guys...its not a debate lol its a discussion on how to make them less OP because the VAST majority of people are on the same page in the fact that they are op and NEEEEED a nerf lol

I still think the debate is not if they are over powered for heroics so much as how they are over powered in heroics.

But many are more content in debating the if.

[Arctigis]

I still think the debate is not if they are over powered for heroics so much as how they are over powered in heroics.

But many are more content in debating the if.

What does that even mean though? are they OP walking through trash - maybe. They are not
OP on Red Names though hence the trade off. People who can't out boss DPS a Warlock - especially ES
ones - either can't build or can't play and shouldn't be listened to on the subject.

[Enoach]

What does that even mean though? are they OP walking through trash - maybe. They are not
OP on Red Names though hence the trade off. People who can't out boss DPS a Warlock - especially ES
ones - either can't build or can't play and shouldn't be listened to on the subject.

If the definition being used is "able to walk through trash and not vs Red Names" then we actually have many Classes that potentially fit this narrative...

Wizard/Sorcerer - Be it DC or DPS, the right gear and focus a player can burn their way through trash but may struggle when it comes to a boss fight because either not enough resources to burn through the HP or DC abilities don't work.

Another example we can use the Cleric with Turn Undead, especially in Undead focused quests. It can be rather difficult to keep up with an appropriately geared/prepared Cleric in the Heroic levels.

Or the Favored Soul with their access to light and force type damage as well as spell point pool size and mobility via wings at level 17.

----------
I think the focus is on the Trash because the majority of quests is actually focused on Trash Management. Even quests with multiple boss fights the majority of the time the quest is spent dealing with trash. The few boss fights where characters face against a boss that recovers health over time or where the environment becomes increasingly hostile to the players do these classes with lots of Trash management abilities actually falter vs those with better single target focus.

So again the discussion is not on if people see warlocks as overpowered it is how they see warlocks being overpowered.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

Sure, I'll concede the fact that Warlocks are very survivable using the ES tree through Heroics.

However, you are wrong that this type of Warlock build using the typical ES (Spirit Blast, Eldritch Burst, Aura, Shining Through etc) is THE OP Warlock build through Heroics.

I just leveled another Warlock DB life 1-20 using 17 in DB (HP/Hamp/CHA/Spell Pen/MoF), 13 SE (Cone/Feeding Frenzy), 50 TS now @ 20.

It is much more DPS and a faster playstyle than a primarily ES build Lock. Even in Heroics.

If you want to talk about pure zerging OP DPS there are many more builds that are viable, survivable and do great damage.

Go play some of them and STAY OFF MY LAWN

[Powerhungry]

Yes, Warlocks are strong in Heroics but seriously - IT'S HEROICS! Warlocks are not the strongest class in Reaper Difficulty {And I fully agree that the Temp HPs not suffering from Heal Amp Penalties is wrong and a bug that needs fixing} so we're talking Heroic Elite here!

Bolded section- a level 7 warlock has completed Devil's Assault solo on reaper 1 (that's a level 18 quest).
Any other class that can do that?

[Arctigis]

Bolded section- a level 7 warlock has completed Devil's Assault solo on reaper 1 (that's a level 18 quest).
Any other class that can do that?

The question shouldn't be over whether someone can, rather whether anyone can. R1 is easier
than Elite (gets easier as RP increase) - if you can overcome the healing debuff. False life + Feigned Health
is a good workaround for that.

[Arctigis]

If the definition being used is "able to walk through trash and not vs Red Names" then we actually have many Classes that potentially fit this narrative...

Indeed. And that's precisely my point. People in general are very, very good at only seeing what they
want to see (confirmation bias). All these nerf 'locks threads are from people who are only focusing
on the strengths of the class - they're always about bursting 'locks too for some reason.

I think the focus is on the Trash because the majority of quests is actually focused on Trash Management.
Even quests with multiple boss fights the majority of the time the quest is spent dealing with trash.
The few boss fights where characters face against a boss that recovers health over time or where the
environment becomes increasingly hostile to the players do these classes with lots of Trash management
abilities actually falter vs those with better single target focus.

As you say, lots and lots of builds can destroy trash. It's not a significant point of difference. I
think, as a balance issue, it's already taken care of. Beat down that stupid giant in Tracker's
Trap on a bursting lock - then do it on a Ranger with Manyshot. Hint: it takes more than 20s on the
'lock

So again the discussion is not on if people see warlocks as overpowered it is how they see warlocks being overpowered.

Most threads I've seen are about 'free' bursts (hey, it's a cleave), massive HP and DPS. I give the OP
props for actually playing a Warlock - that's usually not the case . A typical ES 'lock build is easy
to play, hard to kill and very hard to mess up. It has relatively few gear and stat requirements. In
other words the baseline for effective performance is really high compared to a lot of other builds.
Balance shouldn't be on the baseline, it should be on the ceiling. I don't see threads on throwers
every other day.

[Phoenicis]

I don't see threads on throwers every other day.

Just wait until they get 'Locks nerfed.

[Arctigis]

Just wait until they get 'Locks nerfed.

[FranOhmsford]

Indeed. And that's precisely my point. People in general are very, very good at only seeing what they
want to see (confirmation bias). All these nerf 'locks threads are from people who are only focusing
on the strengths of the class - they're always about bursting 'locks too for some reason.




As you say, lots and lots of builds can destroy trash. It's not a significant point of difference. I
think, as a balance issue, it's already taken care of. Beat down that stupid giant in Tracker's
Trap on a bursting lock - then do it on a Ranger with Manyshot. Hint: it takes more than 20s on the
'lock



Most threads I've seen are about 'free' bursts (hey, it's a cleave), massive HP and DPS. I give the OP
props for actually playing a Warlock - that's usually not the case . A typical ES 'lock build is easy
to play, hard to kill and very hard to mess up. It has relatively few gear and stat requirements. In
other words the baseline for effective performance is really high compared to a lot of other builds.
Balance shouldn't be on the baseline, it should be on the ceiling. I don't see threads on throwers
every other day.

This is basically what I've been trying to say!

1) Warlock has a high Baseline - It's max possible is lower than many other builds.

2) Eldritch Burst and Spirit Blast are CLEAVE/GREAT CLEAVE equivalents {though their aoe range - which is much larger than Cleaves - could perhaps be looked at }.

3) TBF a lot of people on these forums insist on using absolute max available DPS rather than what the average in-game player has available to them - Warlock trash DPS isn't all that high single target, it's just that it has a larger aoe range than most other builds trash DPS and takes out MORE mobs.
A Sorc or Wizard can do more DPS single target easily but when it comes to AOE their spell point pools get diminished fast{ish} whereas EB and SB are CLEAVE EQUIVALENTS!

4) I do keep reading how "strong" Cone locks are but again it's the high baseline vs high max argument - There's a lot of Elitists angry about Enlightened Spirits high baseline because it reduces their own perceived power when newer and "lesser" players can get that close {not that close at all really - the Warlocks doing super high DPS are generally vets themselves} to them.
Cone lock doesn't offend these players so much because they see it as requiring more "work" and not being as easy to build/play - It's about skill not being as relevant to ES Locks. That's what annoys people not that ES is strong but that it's EASY!

[Smokewolf]

You'd think that after 100+ threads similar to the one created by the OP, that the dev's would get the hint that Warlocks are unbalanced in Heroic play. Only people saying differently are those that have either completed their "lives" or those that are currently playing a Warlock.

Case in point... I've a mate that has all of his "Lives" / Racials (as of last week) and when asked what he'll play now that he's done grinding, he said without hesitation, "Warlock". Furthermore, when asked if Warlocks are too powerful, he responded "that they are the best in most all aspects of play". That statement in and of itself is pretty telling. That he would choose to play a Warlock beyond and above any other class he's experienced. That the class offers more to him game-wise then any other class currently in-game.

[JOTMON]

Crab mentality,
is a way of thinking best described by the phrase, "if I can't have it, neither can you."
Individually, the crabs could easily escape from the bucket, but instead they are described as grabbing at each other in a useless "king of the hill" competition which prevents any from escaping and ensures their collective demise.

Instead of working together to get all the crabs out of the bucket, the small minded crabs ensure their own demise.

Any class that climbs above the others is pulled down by other class players believing that rising classes should be nerfed .. which is a fail mentality.

[Arctigis]

You'd think that after 100+ threads similar to the one created by the OP, that the dev's would get the hint that Warlocks are unbalanced in Heroic play. Only people saying differently are those that have either completed their "lives" or those that are currently playing a Warlock.

Case in point... I've a mate that has all of his "Lives" / Racials (as of last week) and when asked what he'll play now that he's done grinding, he said without hesitation, "Warlock". Furthermore, when asked if Warlocks are too powerful, he responded "that they are the best in most all aspects of play". That statement in and of itself is pretty telling. That he would choose to play a Warlock beyond and above any other class he's experienced. That the class offers more to him game-wise then any other class currently in-game.

Cool story. If that's not enough evidence I don't what is.

[Bluebird6757]

To the OP: I'm glad you've finished all the Warlock lives you're going to do, but why do you feel the need to kill the class for the rest of us?

Most of your suggestions would negatively affect Warlocks in epics as well as heroics. For example, if you've ever played the class in EE, you'd know that the cooldown on Shining Through feels too long as is. Why is it so bad to have a class that can go through heroics fast anyway? I think most players (myself included) are perfectly happy to have a class that can get those racial TRs done quickly. In epics Warlocks are far from the strongest toons, and that's where the action will be once the racial TRfest is over with.

Devs, I beg of you - no more Warlock nerfs.

[masterofthewand]

I've been making a lot of noise recently about reaper. But I don't think that warlocks should be nerfed. My problem is the warlock false life abilities working at full power in reaper. That's it.

[FranOhmsford]

I've been making a lot of noise recently about reaper. But I don't think that warlocks should be nerfed. My problem is the warlock false life abilities working at full power in reaper. That's it.

And that IS clearly a Bug that isn't Working as Intended based on the Devs nerfing all {pretty sure it's all} other self-healing in Reaper!

That is NOT a problem with Warlock it is a problem with Reaper!

[Phoenicis]

And that IS clearly a Bug that isn't Working as Intended based on the Devs nerfing all {pretty sure it's all} other self-healing in Reaper!

That is NOT a problem with Warlock it is a problem with Reaper!

No version of temp HP was touched in reaper.

Shining thru, any of the three or four other temp HP warlocks get.

The melee 1000 temp hp weapon proc

Any spell or enhancement granting temp hp.

Based on that, I would say Devs don't see temp HP as healing.

[Arctigis]

Well, you got your wish. Hope your happy.

[FranOhmsford]

Well, you got your wish. Hope your happy.

Who are you talking to?

What wish?