Human Shintao Monk 20 - ETR Into Thrower

[mbartol]

I am currently running a Human Monk 20 Shintao that will ETR soon, but I was interested in trying out a thrower variant for a second ETR before HTR.

I have never played a ranged or thrower before, and I don't have a lot of gear investment. Also, I realize that human isn't the optimal race for a shuriken build, but I was wondering if the following would be viable for soloing EH. Would I be better off waiting until a future life to try one out?

Monk-Shuriken
Monk 20
Lawful Neutral Human


Stats
               36pt     Tome     Level Up
               ----     ----     --------
Strength         8       +6       4: DEX
Dexterity       18       +6       8: DEX
Constitution    14       +6      12: DEX
Intelligence    12       +6      16: DEX
Wisdom          16       +6      20: DEX
Charisma         8       +6      24: DEX
                                 28: DEX

Skills
          1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
         ------------------------------------------------------------
Concent   4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Heal      1½ ½  ½  ½  ½  ½  ½  ½  ½  ½  ½  ½  ½  ½  ½  ½  ½  ½  ½  ½  11
Hide      4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Jump                                                               1   1
Move Si   4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Search    2  ½  ½  ½  ½  ½  ½  ½  ½  ½  ½  ½  ½  ½  ½  ½  ½  ½  ½     11
Spot      4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Tumble    1                                                            1
UMD                         ½  ½  ½  ½  ½  ½  ½  ½  1  1  1  1  1  1  10
         ------------------------------------------------------------
         24  6  6  6  6  6  7  7  7  7  7  7  7  7  8  8  8  8  8  8


Feats

 1        : Point Blank Shot
 1 Human  : Precise Shot
 1 Monk   : Shuriken Expertise
 2 Monk   : Deflect Arrows
 3        : Quick Draw
 3 Monk   : Path of Harmonious Balance
 6        : Rapid Shot
 6 Monk   : Ten Thousand Stars
 9        : Weapon Focus: Thrown
12        : Improved Critical: Thrown
15        : Improved Precise Shot
18        : Precision
21 Epic   : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic   : Combat Archery
26 Destiny: Holy Strike
27 Epic   : Blinding Speed
28 Destiny: Doubleshot
29 Destiny: Epic Mage Armor
30 Epic   : Epic Damage Reduction
30 Legend : Scion of: Arborea


Enhancements (80 of 80 AP)

Ninja Spy (42 AP)
Basic Ninja Training, Advanced Ninja Training, Shadow Veil, Poisoned Darts, Diversion, Ninja Master
Stealthy III, Sneak Attack Training, Acrobatic III
Agility III, Sneak Attack Training, Melee/Ranged Power Boost III
Sneak Attack Training, Sting of the Ninja, Dexterity
Sneak Attack Training, No Mercy III, Dexterity
Deadly Striker, Crippling Strike
Harper Agent (24 AP)
Agent of Good I, Dexterity, Agent of Good II, Dexterity
Harper Enchantment, Traveler's Toughness III
Versatile Adept III, Know the Angles III
Versatile Adept III, Dexterity
Vigor of Life
Human (13 AP)
Skills Boost, Dexterity
Improved Recovery
Sniper III
Improved Recovery
Shintao (1 AP)
Bastion of Purity

Destiny (24 AP)

Shiradi Champion
Healing Spring II, Dexterity
Prism, Pin II, Dexterity
Rainbow, Otto's Whistler II, Whirling Wrists III, Dexterity
Double Rainbow
Nerve Venom III
Twists of Fate (15 fate points)
Sense Weakness (Tier 4 Fury)
Enlightenment (Tier 1 Flowers)
Rejuvenation Cocoon (Tier 1 Primal)

Any suggestions/feedback would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

[Gargoyle69]

I am currently running a Human Monk 20 Shintao that will ETR soon, but I was interested in trying out a thrower variant for a second ETR before HTR.

I have never played a ranged or thrower before, and I don't have a lot of gear investment. Also, I realize that human isn't the optimal race for a shuriken build, but I was wondering if the following would be viable for soloing EH. Would I be better off waiting until a future life to try one out?

Thanks in advance.

I wouldn't worry about human vs drow. Human gives an extra feat and skill point, vs drow giving shuriken expertise and 2 points higher Int, so they're a wash from that point of view. Racial tree is obviously a bit different but human gives the hamp. I've played both to cap and human is fine.

The build looks good, I wouldn't typically invest in haggle but I know some peeps love it so go for it if that's you. If it were me I'd swap the points in diplo and haggle for hide & move silently and put a third point in Ninja Stealthy. There were times when I got a few too many champs on a large pull and needed to reset it, so I'd run off, Shadow Veil, stealth, use Wholeness of Body and then go back and re-engage. The ki regeneration from Stealthy III is a nice bonus while you're doing that, plus you don't want some bozo seeing through your stealth and hitting you while you're meditating back up.

As for ED, Shiradi is pretty nice for Double Rainbow, Whirling Wrists, Pin, Whistler etc. You can also run in Divine Crusader for the Celestial Champion & Zeal of the Righteous. If not running in Shiradi, you'll want to twist in Whirling Wrists, and maybe Pin & Whistler too. Sense Weakness is always good to twist in, as is Dance of Flowers. As an option you can also twist in Enlightenment which means you don't need the APs in Henshin for Contemplation freeing you up to redeploy those points, for example to more Versatile Adept or something.

Anyway, I wouldn't imagine you'd have any problems soloing EH with the build. Plus, throwers are fun, so enjoy!

Edit : it's worth farming up a few pieces of gear before you TR. Frozen Tunic is nice for the freezing effect, with IPS on and your attack speed it's surprising how often it procs. Spell touched Shuriken from Eveningstar are worth making a few until you get a paralyzing one. And an off hand short sword or kama with armour piercing like Envenomed Blade is a good option until you can get a TF star and if you have Celestia, that's awesome.

[mbartol]

I wouldn't typically invest in haggle but I know some peeps love it so go for it if that's you. If it were me I'd swap the points in diplo and haggle for hide & move silently and put a third point in Ninja Stealthy. There were times when I got a few too many champs on a large pull and needed to reset it, so I'd run off, Shadow Veil, stealth, use Wholeness of Body and then go back and re-engage. The ki regeneration from Stealthy III is a nice bonus while you're doing that, plus you don't want some bozo seeing through your stealth and hitting you while you're meditating back up.

Yeah, that makes sense. I also haven't played stealthy characters, so I overlooked their utility when throwing the extra skill points around.

As for ED, Shiradi is pretty nice for Double Rainbow, Whirling Wrists, Pin, Whistler etc. You can also run in Divine Crusader for the Celestial Champion & Zeal of the Righteous. If not running in Shiradi, you'll want to twist in Whirling Wrists, and maybe Pin & Whistler too. Sense Weakness is always good to twist in, as is Dance of Flowers. As an option you can also twist in Enlightenment which means you don't need the APs in Henshin for Contemplation freeing you up to redeploy those points, for example to more Versatile Adept or something.

I probably will run in Shiradi. I only need 1 Primal & 2 Arcane EPLs to reach Epic Completionist, so I'll pick up the Double Shot from Primal on this current EPL. The Shiradi will allow me to refill that Karma.

[Gargoyle69]

I probably will run in Shiradi. I only need 1 Primal & 2 Arcane EPLs to reach Epic Completionist, so I'll pick up the Double Shot from Primal on this current EPL. The Shiradi will allow me to refill that Karma.

Not sure how up to date it is but be aware that the wiki reports that the Doubleshot EPL is currently bugged and providing energy crit instead.

[Saekee]

fit in feat: deflect arrows! There are other feat choices too that might be more intetesting, & AP choices can be swapped around.

gear: epic frozen tunic, even just tier1. At cap you cannot run the challenges & an epic character at 20 will not get bonus mats when doing the heroic mats though.

offhand: razorend if you have it; it uses the older tendon slice which lasts a brutul 60sec. Celestia for AoE procs.
trinket: shimmering arrowhead if you have it

with Razorend & shimmering arrowhead & snowstar, you will cripple/hamstring most trash mobs before they get near you.

Endgamers will do a ToEE set but don't bother with the grind unless you plan to play a long time with throwers/shortsword ninjas

I would also max HS/MS but that is my thing. (also for scion of ethereal). Soooo many tough quests can be partially or wholly stealthed

[mbartol]

Not sure how up to date it is but be aware that the wiki reports that the Doubleshot EPL is currently bugged and providing energy crit instead.

Thanks for the warning. Another stack of fast healing wouldn't be bad.

fit in feat: deflect arrows! There are other feat choices too that might be more intetesting, & AP choices can be swapped around.

What feat would you drop to fit in Deflect Arrows? Maybe Dodge, which I can pick up from other sources? I could always push out other feats if it would be better than anything prior to 20. I don't plan to stay at cap, if it's more of an end-game benefit.


I farmed up the epic tunic and about a dozen spell-touched shurikens (no paralyzing, yet). I'm only level 24 on my Shintao, so I still have some time to try my luck with the RNG.

Thank you both for your input.

[Saekee]

Thanks for the warning. Another stack of fast healing wouldn't be bad.



What feat would you drop to fit in Deflect Arrows? Maybe Dodge, which I can pick up from other sources? I could always push out other feats if it would be better than anything prior to 20. I don't plan to stay at cap, if it's more of an end-game benefit.


I farmed up the epic tunic and about a dozen spell-touched shurikens (no paralyzing, yet). I'm only level 24 on my Shintao, so I still have some time to try my luck with the RNG.

Thank you both for your input.

A dozen shuriken!!! You are persistent! I made one at level 24 that was Caustic Aligned Life Stealing Lit 2 and stopped there. I would have just done 1 for level 20 & 1 for level 24...
If you really wish, some Stars of Day come with Fiery Detonation like Celestia and can be used in the offhand too. It is a random chance but if you have comms to burn. But I would just stay with razorend, if you are lucky you can add the dun'robar ring with tendon slice too. What destiny will you be in? Fury? It will be only red named, teleporting mobs (like Champ Orthons) & small corridors that will give you issues. Plan to twist whirling wrists & Pin from Shiradi at the least.

The epic ring of the stalker is really good--no need to farm it now; just make it at 20. As a swap, do you have the sun soul set? It is great to pop in to get rid of neg levels (swap it on and hit fire stance).

Since you will be maxing dex, bump up Hs/MS, get stealth swap gear & consider trying to stealth some quests. Use a flaming sphere scroll to move some mobs around.

Yes, drop dodge for deflect!

[mbartol]

Spell touched Shuriken from Eveningstar are worth making a few until you get a paralyzing one.

It took ~25 tries to get one with paralyzing (Voltaic, Cacophony, Imp. Paralyzing). I have a couple others that I wasn't sure if they were worth keeping:
- Caustic, Magma Surge, Imp. Slowburst
- Shrieking, Cacophony, Wounding

I updated the build to add in Hide & Move Silently, and to fit in Deflect Arrows.

[Selvera]

I'm also looking into doing a shuriken build, so I'm keen on discussing ED choices.

Here's what you've suggested (My comments in purple):
Healing Spring II, Dexterity I don't really like healing spring unless I'm able to take at least full points in the basic spring and 1 point in each upgrade to it.
Prism, Pin II, Dexterity How useful IS stat damage in today's meta? I thought many mobs were pretty resistant to it at epic levels. Do you often see enemies become helpless because of this?
Rainbow, Otto's Whistler II, Whirling Wrists III, Dexterity Rainbow sounds like a great upgrade, the best of the ranged stances. But how many points is it worth?
Double Rainbow So much randomness in this ability. I guess it's pretty good on average?
Nerve Venom III Of course, this is an amazing ability

Twists of Fate (15 fate points)
Sense Weakness (Tier 4 Fury) I feel like this is a "win more" ability when it works. Yes it's a lot of damage, but only against less-challanging enemies. I suppose this works with nerve venom? How effective is it?
Dance of Flowers (Tier 1 Flowers) This, on paper, looks to me to be pretty poor. Shuriken are on average 1d2, which means this twist is +1d3 damage. Worth a tier 1 twist?
Rejuvenation Cocoon (Tier 1 Primal) Is stupidly efficient for a tier 1 twist. This essentially invalidates your healing spring points.


Here's a setup that I'm considering trying out:
+1 Dexterity, Stay Frosty There's pretty much nothing I want at tier 1 except the dex, so picking up a stance which has a chance to slow and deals cold damage doesn't sound like a bad idea.
+1 Dexterity, Pin II My idea is that by taking the "free" stay frosty, I can free up a lot of points from not taking prism.
+1 Dexterity, Whistler II, Whirling wrists III
+1 Dexterity I love me getting extra dexterity on a shuriken build. Trying to get as much as I can.
Nerve Venom III
+1 Dexterity, Tea Tea seems to be a pretty good ability if you can pump your diplomacy to crit success every time, and shiardi gets some free diplo by itself

Twists:
Tier 4: Echos of Shiardi Champion I've heard split reports of if the attackspeed works. Even without it still gives +1 dex and +2 diplo, but the attackspeed would be pretty awesome if it works as it states.
Tier 3: Grim Precision Some of the most annoying enemies in the game are the ones that are heavily fortified. I like critical hits.
Tier 1: Rejuvenation Cocoon It's too good to pass up.

[mbartol]

Since I have never played a thrower (or any ranged for that matter), I would defer to other players to provide meaningful feedback on the point distribution in Shiradi.
I leveled Shiradi on a THF Paladin/Trapper life as an off-destiny, so my experience with it is lacking.

I will definitely be playing around with different Twists when i finally ETR into this.

[mbartol]

Not sure how up to date it is but be aware that the wiki reports that the Doubleshot EPL is currently bugged and providing energy crit instead.

I was going to ETR today, and was looking over the wiki.
Is the bug granting +3% crit in addition to or instead of doubleshot?

[DrawingGuy]

On my character sheet, Doubleshot ETR is working fine providing the correct amount of DS and no Energy Critical.

[pappo]

I farmed up the epic tunic and about a dozen spell-touched shurikens (no paralyzing, yet). I'm only level 24 on my Shintao, so I still have some time to try my luck with the RNG.

I am not familiar with "spell-touched" shurikens. I couldn't find them on the Wiki.
Can you explain what they are and how you got a paralyzing shuriken.
Thanks. Looks like a great build to try after I finish my current 14 Monk / 6 Ranger.

[DrawingGuy]

I am not familiar with "spell-touched" shurikens. I couldn't find them on the Wiki.
Can you explain what they are and how you got a paralyzing shuriken.
Thanks. Looks like a great build to try after I finish my current 14 Monk / 6 Ranger.

"Spelltouched" or "Spellplague" on Cormyrian throwing weapons that give them extra random procs. This coupled with CC variants (such as the Paralyzing proc mentioned) make these very popular throwers from 16 to 26 (when you get LGS/TF).

Cormyrian weapons are an E* trade-in, but the result is random, so it takes some grinding and luck to get what you want.

Here's the wiki for the E* trade-ins so you can see your options: http://ddowiki.com/page/Eveningstar_...en_mechanic.29

Page about Spelltouch procs: http://ddowiki.com/page/Spellplague

[Gargoyle69]

I was going to ETR today, and was looking over the wiki.
Is the bug granting +3% crit in addition to or instead of doubleshot?

If memory serves, they fixed it with the most recent update. Should be all good now.

[Gargoyle69]

I'm also looking into doing a shuriken build, so I'm keen on discussing ED choices.

<snip Shiradi stuff>

There are others more knowledgeable than I on throwers, but IMHO the stat damage from rainbow is not that impressive or useful in epics, and the main reason for taking it is that it gates access to double rainbow. Double rainbow combined with 3 stacks of Colours of the Queen (if you have them) on a shuriken build rate of attack gives a high rate of procs from the random effects table which includes bonus damage, AoE effects like sunburst for AoE blindness, and misc effects like knockdown.

It seemed to work pretty well for me but having said that, 6 EDP is a high cost, and I can totally understand wanting to stick with Stay Frosty and put those 6 points into other things like more Dex.

I'm also looking into doing a shuriken build, so I'm keen on discussing ED choices.
Twists:
Tier 4: Echos of Shiardi Champion I've heard split reports of if the attackspeed works. Even without it still gives +1 dex and +2 diplo, but the attackspeed would be pretty awesome if it works as it states.
Tier 3: Grim Precision Some of the most annoying enemies in the game are the ones that are heavily fortified. I like critical hits.
Tier 1: Rejuvenation Cocoon It's too good to pass up.

If you decide to test this, I'd love to hear the results, but I suspect it won't work. PM me if it's something you'd rather not post in public <grin>

[mbartol]

I eTR'd into this over the weekend.
Running backward to kite mobs rather than run at them swinging is something I am getting used to. Also, I'm also spending time practicing lining up targets for IPS.

I made a few changes based on input from Gargoyle and Saekee (thanks guys), and updated the build in the initial post:
- Twist in Enlightenment to free up APs from Henshin
- Moved those points into Harper (more DEX & Vigor of Life)
- Corrected APs in Human tree (Sniper costs 2 points each)

@Selvera, I agree with you that Healing Spring isn't really worth having--Cocoon is sufficient. Between the spell-touched shuriken w/ paralyzing and having Prism/Rainbow, I see LOTS of procs. I think I would prefer that route rather than the 2 DEX & Tea that you suggested. I'll have to run without Prism/Rainbow to see if I notice any reduction in procs. Also, I haven't reset Fatesinger to try out Echos as my Tier 4 twist yet.