How much is lost taking 3 pally and 2 rogue levels/15 warlock

[wolfy42]

So, not really into reincarnating over and over again, gonna do it 1 more time to get 36 point build opened up, and then if at all after that, just epic reincarnation.

So I need to choose the final class split that I want.

Warlock seems like the easiest to play through, so I'm thinking of going with that long term.

Thing is, playing as one is easy/strong, but I miss trapping, so taking either 2 rogue or artificer is needed for trap skills (rogue makes more sense)...especially since I could grab evasion that way.

Now I could just go with 18 warlock/2 rogue, I see and have read a few posts about that....but...without a ton of past lives, my saves won't be that great...but if I took 3 pally levels, that would significantly boost the saves.

I know I'd lose some pact damage, but I don't really care for need the higher level spells, and with epic pact damage, and the pact damage enhancements, it wouldn't be a very large loss of dps I don't think.

It would be a significant boost in survivability though.

So....anyone tried this? Any thoughts on how well this would work long term?

It might be over kill, but with sacred defense boosts and huge saves, I think I would be pretty freaking hard to kill.

[wolfy42]

Another option is to say screw it to the rogue levels and evasion, and just go with the pally levels, since the high saves will work on everything, and while you won't be immune to all evasion traps, you'll halve the damage from them, and you could then wear medium armor (and get the +6 sacred con bonus that way for temp hp bonus)

In that case I'd go with either 3, or possibly 4 pally levels. The 4th pally level would give me more saves, a bit better lay on hands, and level 1 pally spells (so cure light wounds, which....isn't as worthless as it sounds...my 10 rogue/4 monk/6 pally heals himself just fine in epic content with CLWs hitting for about 40-50 a pop (he has 100 healing amp and switches to a positive staff before healing etc).


Still not sure if it's worth losing 8d6 pact damage (just 1 away from max) that I would get going with 17 warlock/3 pally levels. It means no snarfy trap bonus exp from quests though, but I could live with that I guess.

Still, it's just another 1d6 pact damage lost if I only go with 15 warlock levels and I can get trap skills, evasion AND super high saves with 3 pally levels. I still get misty escape (warlock 15) which is really the last thing I really need/want from warlock (unless going pure, or getting 18 levels).

Hard to choose to be honest. I have +5 superior tome on this character so I should be able to keep my trap skills up. Also have 1 rogue past life for +2 to trap saves (only past life so far).

If I'm not going pure, It just seems like taking just 15 warlock levels for misty escape and 7d6 base pact damage is the way to go. I'll still get the extra light damage from enhancements (just as much), my blasts will still do almost as much damage as well, dropping like maybe 5-10% in total damage. With epic eldrich blast that makes it 9d6 instead of 11d6 total....and with epic arcane eldrich blast that makes it 11d6 vs 13d6....so it's less, but it still gets the light damage bonus etc....it's not a ton less.

I'm leaning towards 15 warlock/3 pally/2 rogue now.

[mr420247]

17 lock 3 pally is decent defensively you'll lose dps though lack of the 18 cores n capstone

Depends what your running but epics mostly don't even need to trap but if that's what you like

Think its going to depend on what ed you want to run in Shiradi, EA, or DC

[wolfy42]

17 lock 3 pally is decent defensively you'll lose dps though lack of the 18 cores n capstone

Depends what your running but epics mostly don't even need to trap but if that's what you like

Think its going to depend on what ed you want to run in Shiradi, EA, or DC

Yeah, the damage loss doesn't seem TOO large.


Since I would be taking tier 5 for the bursts, I wouldn't get the tier 5 1d6 pact damage anyway, and probably wouldn't have enough to get the TS capstone (For that 1d6 pact damage.

So 17 warlock levels only makes me lose 1d6 pact damage all together (eventually getting 12d6 instead of 13d6).

Taking 2 rogue levels as well, drops me another 1d6 pact damage, to 11d6 instead of 13d6....still doesn't seem too large.

I gain evasion that way and trap skills, but I lose the ability to use medium armor, and the bonuses I can get from that (which can be pretty large).

I'm thinking maybe going just 17/3 might be the best bet, at it really adds a ton of defense. I would still be able to use medium armor, and I'd get 6 more con from Sacred defense...meaning more temp hp. I'd get more healing amp probably as well, and lay on hands (which with the healing amp is going to be pretty decent.

If I do go with Unyielding sentinal, my damage will drop more (since no 2d6 pact damage from arcane), but I would get a ton more hp, healing (lay on hands), con for temp hp, unlimited lay on hands when the temp hp are not enough, deathblock, more fort, and insane saves. I'd twist in the no fails probably, and with such sick saves would never fail anything.

So defensively I should have very high PRR/MRR, decent AC, very high max health, Shinning through for tons of temp hp to use in reaper, lay on hands if I actually do take real damage, and still quite decent ranged damage (not 100% of warlock ranged, but maybe 90% of most warlocks range damage).

If I take the 2 rogue levels, I'd lose out on the bonus 6 con, medium armor usage (So some PRR), a bit more damage (85%), but I'd gain full trap skills, and possibly open locks (not sure on that), along with evasion. I'd still have very high max hp, and really just lose out on the 6 bonus con from sacred defense...48 more temp hp is nice, but I'd still have well over 300.

Really hard to choose to be honest, but since I'd take rogue at level 1, I need to choose before starting.

[unbongwah]

Yeah, the damage loss doesn't seem TOO large.

Since I would be taking tier 5 for the bursts, I wouldn't get the tier 5 1d6 pact damage anyway, and probably wouldn't have enough to get the TS capstone (For that 1d6 pact damage.

So 17 warlock levels only makes me lose 1d6 pact damage all together (eventually getting 12d6 instead of 13d6).

You're overlooking the last two Enhancements in the warlock PrEs, all of which are pretty strong. So no matter which PrE is your primary, you're giving up a lot more DPS than just the extra EB/Pact dmg from your warlock levels.

I'm thinking maybe going just 17/3 might be the best bet, at it really adds a ton of defense. I would still be able to use medium armor, and I'd get 6 more con from Sacred defense...meaning more temp hp. I'd get more healing amp probably as well, and lay on hands (which with the healing amp is going to be pretty decent.

The flip side to that is pure ES warlock gets +20% HPs and +2 CON from their capstone anyway as well as the DPS bonuses from the cores I mentioned. So it's much more of a HP wash than you seem to expect.

Also last time I checked LoHs isn't affected by heal amp.

[wolfy42]

You're overlooking the last two Enhancements in the warlock PrEs, all of which are pretty strong. So no matter which PrE is your primary, you're giving up a lot more DPS than just the extra EB/Pact dmg from your warlock levels.

The flip side to that is pure ES warlock gets +20% HPs and +2 CON from their capstone anyway as well as the DPS bonuses from the cores I mentioned. So it's much more of a HP wash than you seem to expect.

Also last time I checked LoHs isn't affected by heal amp.

Here is why that doesn't seem to apply to me.

When I run as a warlock, I go down the ES tree for the blasts, which do serious damage, but I DON'T run with the aura on as I prefer using chain/cone blasts. Celestial spirit adds 3d6 light damage though which is large, and a decent amount of light spell power (and some universal), along with 20% more hp, featherfall and knockdown immunity (all very good).

That being said, I'm going Tier 5 in ES, so that makes it pretty hard to spend enough points in TS to get the capstone. Looking at it though, it's possible since I only need to spend 37 points in ES total, and I believe you get 80 points total, that leaves 43 points left (so I could spend 40 points in TS and spend 1 point for the capstone. That would leave only 2 points left over. No way at all to get cone shape which is my personal favorite and works great in combo with bursts.

If I go with 3 pally levels, I then only need to spend 37 points in ES still, and only 12-14 points in TS (getting tier 3 pact damage and possibly +1 cha).

That leaves 31 points left over to spend between Pally trees and soul Eater tree. It takes 13 points to get cone shape and tier 3 core in SE, which leaves 18 points left over.

9 points in SaD gives you the full 25/25 PRR/MRR from sacred defense, but 18 points gives you +7 con (6 from Stance, 1 from enhancment) and +3 more saves.

What I would be giving up basically is the last 18 enhancement points I would spend on Sacred defender enhancements, along with 3 warlock levels.

I would lose:

3d6 light damage from celestial spirit. 1d6 pact from base warlock levels, 1d6 pact from TS capstone (if I go max damage route), 1d4 pact damage from tier 4 TS. 20% more max hp (nice with all the con etc), Knockdown immunity. A ton of spell crit damage and 4 cha (but cha no longer adds to saves).

I would gain:

18 to all saves (11 from cha + 3 from sacred defense, + 4 from aura of good). Immunity to fear and disease. 7 con (boosting max hp, but especially nice for shining through..also boosting fort saves a bit more), 25% PRR and MRR, Lay on hands, eventually 7 of them...and 1 that regens every 3 minutes), Cure light wounds (nothing special here, but lets you top off to save LoH's, and is useful to heal NPCs etc if you have to defend them etc).

Btw, you can still get the 20% bonus hp, if you want it, just you sacrifice the 6 sacred con bonus. To me, the con is worth more, it boosts saves even more, boosts hp (just not nearly as much), but most importantly boosts shining through, which is very useful for reaper difficulty. I am not sure but LoH might heal full in reaper as well (Even if healing amp does not affect it, with a high cha modifier (over 30), it still heals for a ton).

To get the max save bonus from cha (11), I'd need a 32 cha (easy, especially since I have a +5 superior tome), So LoH will heal for a minimum of 13x32 hp (if spellpower and healing amp affects it not at all), or 416 hp.

More then likely I'm going to heavily focus on Cha though (still getting a high Con), so my cha is probably going to be significantly higher then 32. If I hit a 50 cha, that would make loh heal for 650 for instance (if nothing boosts it).

So the damage loss isn't minor, but it's still less then 20%. The defense boost though is significant. The saves are WAY higher, and with twists I could pretty much never fail a save. No evasion doesn't make that as awesome as it could be, but it's still pretty great. Bonus to con boosts max health and temp hp from ES, bonus PRR/MRR makes hitting 50% reduction much easier (I don't have great eq or anything), LoH's are nice safety buttons to use if things go really bad, and CLW is a nice backup instead of having to wand heal others etc (with a positive staff to switch to, you heal for a good 40 a pop).

The real big diff though honestly is the saves, is it worth loosing the damage, for the huge bump is saving throws?

[slarden]

I played 17 warlock 3 paladin and 15 warlock 3 paladin 2 monk before the nerf to divine grace and they both worked fine. The Dps loss is 25% compared to a level 20 warlock which is comparable to a con based warlock assuming you max charisma. However if you have energy burst, divine wrath in your rotation actual dps is better than a con based warlock for bursting. Your saves are +13 con +14 reflex and +9 will vs a 20 warlock excluding the 2 bonus you get to one save based on pact. Actually more due to other paladin bonuses. It's a good combo if you want trapping skills. the tricky thing is you need light armor for trapping and a buckler for the paladin 20% hp bonus which limits your weapon choices a bit. Mainly at level cap that has to do with swap lgs weapons.

[unbongwah]

the tricky thing is you need light armor for trapping and a buckler for the paladin 20% hp bonus which limits your weapon choices a bit.

Small shields also work with Evasion; it's Swashbuckling that's buckler-only. This gives you some extra gear options as well as a bit more protection, particularly if you squeeze in the Shield Mastery or Deflection feats.

[slarden]

Small shields also work with Evasion; it's Swashbuckling that's buckler-only. This gives you some extra gear options as well as a bit more protection, particularly if you squeeze in the Shield Mastery or Deflection feats.

Good point! Thank you.

[bank]

My final build for Trelaf, all past lives done, currently almost half way thru Racials is 2 Rog/2Pal/16 Wlk. Keeping in mind that he has all tomes/PL's and gear he has no problems what so ever running EE/Reaper.
I am running just 1 Rog in the Racial sprints because 2 is just not needed to get to 20 using BB.

When Racials are finished the 2nd Rog lvl will be looked at closely. I run in Med Armor so Evasion is out, saves thru 20 end up in the 40's and @ lvl 30 were in 70's with little effort. Lvl order is 1Rog/12 Wlk( for 4th core TS) 2 Pal/5 Wlk for Racials .

16/Con/Cha/Int will give you all you need for skill points and Damage(16 Int is the key for skill points in IL/Search, the others are based on PL's and choice for build). I round the rest off into Dex for open lock.I have passed this build to others in game, no one seems to have had a problem running it.

One of the first pieces of gear I grabbed was Fanion Shield From Necro Turn in.
Hope this helps.


Trelaf

[Grace_ana]

Small shields also work with Evasion; it's Swashbuckling that's buckler-only. This gives you some extra gear options as well as a bit more protection, particularly if you squeeze in the Shield Mastery or Deflection feats.

Make sure you slot some ASF reduction if you use a small shield. ASF affects your bursts.