Early Look - Cleric Domains and Turn Undead

[the_one_dwarfforged]

holy sword. do any more words need to be said? :/

the answer is no but im going to ignore that for a moment.

what is the point of paladins now? paladin was already better off mcing with 5 or 6 fighter or ranger than pure for a dps build for a while now. why is that? because all three of those classes have the exact same crit profile buffs. but rangers and fighters bring more to the table offensively, while paladins other benefits just arent necessary and/or dont justify the opportunity cost of having less dps by packing paladin levels. now clerics get holy sword. what meaningful disadvantages would a pure cleric face compared to a pure paladin (cause also holy sword)? 15 less mp (assuming warpriest doesnt get revamped from its currently super meh state), lower saves, no loh, no defensive stance. gee i wonder how you solve those problems? if you want the saves and loh and defensive stance, 3-6 pally, problem solved, cleric is a better paladin than paladin is. if you want the mp and defensive stance? 5 fighter, problem solved, cleric is a better paladin than paladin is. i could get behind holy sword for clerics, but not if its going to be a level 14 thing.

when you add in the improved base damage, the somewhat sustainable mp buff, the improved weapon dice, and the passive dc bonus, this really buries paladins hard. the sad thing about this is that i dont think the proposed buffs to battle clerics are utterly off the wall insane levels of op, by themselves. the problem is that past class revamps were poorly handled and 6 fighter makes everything strong. holy sword should have been +1 crit range and multi to short/long/bastard/great swords only, focused on actually improving their auras, and focused on improving their passive damage bonuses and abilities for killing undead and evil outsiders. instead it was just generic dps gains that were good at the time. seriously, every class pass has been unsatisfying an almost all have been unacceptable failures. bard and paladin stand out to me as the worst, but even fighter, which got high dps boosts and is a class that should be all about dps, is still kind of disappointing because at the end of the day fighter is still just a more bare bones paladin or barb or monk or ranger or rogue with more dps. you need to give every class the *abilities* that it needs to be unique, and *play differently* than the others, not just give them dps.

honestly this is such a tired argument. at least we have the same people making the same mistakes, so we can blame them for not learning from them instead of being fed the cop out of a revolving door of devs behind the various bad designs and implementations that cripple this game.

[SirValentine]

you all realize that you only get one domain ...

They might not realize, since that's not how domains are supposed to work.

[Doctorivil]

Hi, first of all I'd like to say I'm hyped about the upcoming pass to divines.
It's long needed and seems like it could be refreshing for the classes.

But there's one thing I don't agree with.There are too many domains.
Before you start on me with "clerics always had a ton of domains", I know that, I often play D&D pnp and I'm aware that that diversity in domains is part of the "cleric experience" package.
But it seems to me that you are creating so many domains that some of them just seem slightly adjustments from one another.
The point on having domains is that each one should have its own unique feel, so I'd sugest you merge some of them together.
Elemental types for instance, there's no need for a domain for each element. It's even ok to let some of the elements out.
Even lorewise, domains should fit the Gods avaliable and I don't think that the domains suggested fit the Gods we have.

This overdo in diversity is something you've done before, namely with the champions, there are so many diferent and at the same time identical types of champions that there's no "uniqueness" in them, and (speaking for me) I end up not paying much attention to the champion type because of that.

TLDR:
Nice initiative on the cleric pass.
More diversity doesn't always mean more fun. Go for uniqueness.

[gravisrs]

Turn undead was OP at lower levels, weak at lvl 20, totally not working at levels 24+ EH, EE. At reaper difficulty it starts to be zero effective around lvl 18.
But what is important on 24+ levels mobs HP do not scale linear but exponentially.
OP factor was limited by fact that Turn Undead pool is limited.

So. Current state of Turn undead (assuming all past lives, best equipment in game, pure cleric sunelf):
- OP at levels 1-10 just disappearing legions of mobs per turn
- bit OP at levels 11-20 disappearing few mobs per turn
- fine at levels 20-23 disappearing 1-2 undeads - and that's currently most balanced range
- zero effective at levels 24+

Proposed state of Turn Undead:
- fine at levels 1-10 just damaging all undeads around for 1/3 up to 1/2 their HP (Elite content)
- just ok at levels 11-20 damaging ~1/5 undeads HP
- weak at levels 20+ just damaging 1/10 undeads HP
- still not very usefull at 25+ where EE skellys tend to have 50k HP and (doing the math) cleric can hurt them just by 1k damage (rounded up) ?
- almost zero effective at reaper content

Well we have Positive Energy Burst already! Which has same undead damage scaling (1d8 vs 1d4+4 per lvl). So where is the gain ?

[Iriale]

About turn undead: in pnp turning is not instant killing, it's scaring undeads (so, damage + stun is lorewise consistent) but - it's the SUN domain the domain that gives the instantkilling of undead. Not death domain! Please, a little more love for the lore

BUT (this is important!) - If you want nerf the actual turn undead, you need give it SIGNIFICANT damage. Not TRIVIAL damage. Turn undead is a classic cleric feature and needs to be useful!

Too, devs, do you think that is worth to destroy something that has been in DDO since beginning? When you destroyed pale masters in reaper, you lose me and several of my friends as paying customers (sorry-I don't like that you destroy a toon who I have played for 5 years…) A lot of cleric players won't like that you destroy their builds…

Your domains don't have any sense. First, domains without a god? What sense have this? A cleric should choose a god, a god should have several domains associated (not all! Read the lore!) A cleric only should choose two domains of their god (two and not one. And not random two, two of the domains of the god) why at level 2 and not at level 1???

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm

Earthquake is a cleric spell. Add to the cleric/fvs spell list (and tentacles to wiz/sorc spell list!) It's ok earthquake in earth domain. Druids need more spells, anyways (and better scaling of their spells in epics!) Add to the cleric/fvs spell list too silence and align weapon. You have the code for these spells and they are iconic divine spells in D&D.

Your domains are vastly overpowered. They should give a minor power. Not a big boost, and extra spells for a unique feeling of the cleric and his god. But please please please. If you create domains and don’t give them any lore is silly!!!! (gods!!!!! domains need gods!)

I guess that you don't have enough spells for 9 levels for all domains and for this you prefer few spells as SLAs and bonuses to stats, but… that is not the right form to do it. The powercreep is absurd. And hey, clerics have the best healing of the game, the highest number of spell slots in the game… and you are giving them bonuses better than wizards can get with their bonus feats! (and you have destroyed undead healing and an entire enhancement tree from wizards in reaper lol) Absurd! Tone down the domains and give bonuses useful but not OP.

Now, use with care the arcane spells in cleric domains. In DDO we have a lot less spells than pnp. In pnp clerics can use the domain spells one time and not in an almost-infinite casting. In pnp clerics can't take the role of arcanes. Here, in ddo, they can if you give them a lot of arcane spells (arcanes don’t have a lot of useful spells… in ddo most of spells in all lists are useless!). Use arcane spells, yes, but with moderation; you need preserve the unique feeling and role of the classes.

Sun domain is about light and destroy undeads. It's absurd destroy undead in death domain, lorewise turn undead is positive energy. In death domain you should give undeath to death as spell if you want something related with undeads (although death domain is more about to kill living creatures and create undeads… please, devs… a little more love for the lore! Have u played the pnp game??) Create undead is a more thematic spell for death domain. Of course, create undead is an useless spell. And if you update create undead to something useful??? DDO is full of garbage spells..

Good domain needs a significant boost against evil creatures and to do the cleric weapons good aligned. Holy sword should to be a good domain spell. It's a sacred spell in pnp. Although holy sword only should work against evil creatures, but you and your inconsistent lore…

Animal domain killing animals?? Noooo. That domain is for nature clerics!!!! They love animals! Charm animals, yes. Kill animals no! Kill aberrations, ok.

Cleric is a (very strong) support class in pnp. Magic domain needs to help with the magic of the party (yes, style spellsinger, but care with don’t leave spellsinger in the dust!)

So, as a resume-- I don't like your proposal. Domains need to be associated to a god. Domains should give differentiation to different type of clerics, but not OP power. Domains need to be lorewise consistent. Animal domain for nature clerics killing animals? ouch. Death domain destroying undeads, when the domain is about creating undeads and killing living creatures? Ouch.

Lore, devs, a little more love for lore…

[cru121]

<pic>

I ran that thing through OCR and pasted to result to the wiki:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Domain
If anyone prefers to read it there, or copy/paste/dissect it... now you can.

[Iriale]

what would fvs need as part of their base class?

Fvs is a strong class, but they need SLAs in their enhancement trees. They need too earthquake and align weapon in the cleric/fvs spell list. I think that metamagic should to be cheaper in spell points (enhancements for reduction in the metamagic cost should to be better in the trees of all casting classes), for all casting classes, and fvs as nuker can benefit of this a lot.

Fvs has a big spell pool. That is one of his advantages. Why you give to a domain a stupid boost in spell points? That takes away that advantage of fvs...

Don't give insane bonunes to the cleric domains. Fvs have the same number of feats than clerics, but not domains. Minor boost on power, yes, domains OP, no, please...

[FranOhmsford]

Fvs is a strong class,

No it's not!

Name one class other than Cleric weaker than FvS right now!

Go on - Just ONE!

[Iriale]

No it's not!

Name one class other than Cleric weaker than FvS right now!

Go on - Just ONE!

It's a strong class. I have friends with very strong fvs toons already in the game. A little more of spell point conservation (with SLAs and metamagic cheaper) and a broader spell selection (with earthquake they would get a strong CC spell, and this is a divine spell in D&D, not only druid spell!) they will be very strong. As base features they don't need more. Polish a little their enhancement trees and a new tree can to do the rest.

Fran, I'm sorry to say this, but you need to learn to build and manage better your toons. Fvs class deserve his pass? Sure. They need other enhancement tree and their 2 trees need a polish. They need SLAs. Fvs are the weakest class? NO

[Fecerak]

With all the hate on the forums and such, I felt the need to mention that I absolutely love the new system. Certainly, there's room for some fixing up on numbers and abilities in some places, but that doesn't mean that the idea is flawed at all. And I think some people also are overreacting to how "OP" some of the abilities actually would be. Sure, by playing an animal domain cleric 20 you get +800 HP at level 30, but to me at least, survivability didn't really seem to be the biggest issue as a pure cleric anyways, it was more about offence. So if you're willing to give up all the neat new bonuses to offence that these domains offer for some more survivability, then more power to you, but that doesn't necessarily make it OP.

And giving the clerics a few signature SLAs isn't a bad idea either. Sure your druid might be sad that a cleric also has access to earthquake SLA, but given that the cleric spell is fairly mediocre compared to the warlock/sorc/wiz and probably even druid's spell list, expanding it is a good idea in my opinion. And with the domains being exlusive you'll only get 1 of these signature spells on any given cleric anyways, meaning that while the cleric class might suddenly be among the most flexible in DDO, any given cleric build will not. And having very flexible classes enabling synergies leading to some flexible and some rather unflexible builds depending on the builder's imagination and goals is what DDO is all about in my opinion.

Again, some numbers might need tweaking, and same with some domains, but if half or more of the domains are solid options, then that is really cool, as it gives so many new options for character building. The only thing I'd really wish for was to perhaps make the domains a little bit more synergistic in terms of multiclass options, so that they not only cause a lot of new pure class cleric builds to become viable, but also a lot of interesting multiclass cleric builds.

[FranOhmsford]

It's a strong class. I have friends with very strong fvs toons already in the game. A little more of spell point conservation (with SLAs and metamagic cheaper) and a broader spell selection (with earthquake they would get a strong CC spell, and this is a divine spell in D&D, not only druid spell!) they will be very strong. As base features they don't need more. Polish a little their enhancement trees and a new tree can to do the rest.

Fran, I'm sorry to say this, but you need to learn to build and manage better your toons. Fvs class deserve his pass? Sure. They need other enhancement tree and their 2 trees need a polish. They need SLAs. Fvs are the weakest class? NO

And still you won't name a weaker one?

Come off it - I know people who can make any class or build work - That doesn't make those classes or builds strong!

The game shouldn't be aimed strictly at the top gamers out there!

I'm utterly fed-up personally of the Devs catering to those guys and those guys alone - HERE WE GO AGAIN WITH CLERICS!

[Iriale]

No, Fran, fvs is not the weakest class. They need a pass, all casting classes (less warlock) need a pass. But if you want, I invite you to play with my party in khyber, and you'll see a good fvs in action.

Yes, fvs need past lives and good gear. All casting classes (less warlocks) need it. But fvs are not bad. They need SLAs, they need a polish in their trees. They need a 3rd tree. They have missed a pair of spells in their spell list for ages (earthquake, align weapon...) I don't say that fvs and clerics don't need a pass, because they need it. But fvs are not the weakest class.

[HastyPudding]

PnP- clerics have access to earthquake as an 8th level spell

This isn't PnP. Giving clerics access to earthquake will completely invalidate spellcasting druids. Earthquake (and a nuke spell that only works well at level 5-21) is just about the only thing that makes druid competitive as a spellcaster. All of their persistent aoe spells are trash damage or only used for utility reasons (like ice storm + mantle). No. Giving clerics earthquake is like giving paladins the ability to rage like a barbarian, or giving wizards the heal spell, or giving sorcerers the ability to trap without rogue/arti levels. There are other useful earth-themed spells that can be added to the earth domain that don't invalidate other classes.

Regardless, druid is going to be obsolete for a few months when cleric/fvs gets their pass. We'll have to wait and see what they're going to do with druids later on.

[MasterKernel]

First, domains without a god? What sense have this? A cleric should choose a god, a god should have several domains associated (not all! Read the lore!)

As per Eberron's lore, you can have a Cleric without a god. (There is "no gods" in Eberron after all.)

But fvs are not bad. They need SLAs, they need a polish in their trees. They need a 3rd tree. They have missed a pair of spells in their spell list for ages (earthquake, align weapon...) I don't say that fvs and clerics don't need a pass, because they need it. But fvs are not the weakest class.

FvSs don't need SLAs ! FvS = melee Cleric variant. They need to drop ×2 Spell Points from the items and get a good melee tree.

Overall, the "domains" looks horrible. They exist to give Clerics a good spells diversity, not to add raw power. :-\

[Iriale]

This isn't PnP. Giving clerics access to earthquake will completely invalidate spellcasting druids. Earthquake (and a nuke spell that only works well at level 5-21) is just about the only thing that makes druid competitive as a spellcaster. All of their persistent aoe spells are trash damage or only used for utility reasons (like ice storm + mantle). No. Giving clerics earthquake is like giving paladins the ability to rage like a barbarian, or giving wizards the heal spell, or giving sorcerers the ability to trap without rogue/arti levels. There are other useful earth-themed spells that can be added to the earth domain that don't invalidate other classes.

Regardless, druid is going to be obsolete for a few months when cleric/fvs gets their pass. We'll have to wait and see what they're going to do with druids later on.

spellcasting druids need their pass, starting with a few more spells and a better scaling of their dps in epics, a better companion (it's so useless) and a lot of other changes. Druids need a pass a lot! But earthquake should be a divine spell too. Improve druids and give the missing spells to their spell lists (earthquake, silence and align weapon to cleric/fvs spell lists. Tentacles, color spray and vampiric touch to the wiz/sorc spell list)

[Iriale]

As per Eberron's lore, you can have a Cleric without a god. (There is "no gods" in Eberron after all.)

No. That's should to be the exception, not the norm. Sovereing host, Dark six... they are part of the lore of the world! and in FR the gods are more important!

FvSs don't need SLAs ! FvS = melee Cleric variant. They need to drop ×2 Spell Points from the items and get a good melee tree.

Not true. FVS is not a melee version of cleric, not in DDO, not in pnp. They can to be more melee orientated or more casting orientated, but they are not melee only. FVs and sorc have more spellpoints in pnp too.

If I have not misunderstood, Warpriest is being updated for u36, I am waiting to see the changes before to say anything that a melee divine (cleric or fvs) would need...

[Jetrule]

Favored soul are a divine version of sorcerer. In the absence of domains for Favored souls. I think they should have the ability to choose one arcane spell of each level. Giving them the broadest of spell choices. In table top D&D they are moving favored souls to be sorcerers who can pick from any divine or arcane spell with their spell selections. I would say cap the arcane choices to 1 spell of each spell level and once the arcane spell of that level is chosen grey out or remove the selector for that levels arcane spell at level up. Inherently Favored souls should have no arcane spell failure for thier selected spells. And any dc's should be wisdom based.

[FranOhmsford]

No, Fran, fvs is not the weakest class. They need a pass, all casting classes (less warlock) need a pass. But if you want, I invite you to play with my party in khyber, and you'll see a good fvs in action.

Yes, fvs need past lives and good gear. All casting classes (less warlocks) need it. But fvs are not bad. They need SLAs, they need a polish in their trees. They need a 3rd tree. They have missed a pair of spells in their spell list for ages (earthquake, align weapon...) I don't say that fvs and clerics don't need a pass, because they need it. But fvs are not the weakest class.

And yet again you fail to name a single weaker class than FvS or Cleric!

I have run with good FvSs, I have run with good Clerics, I have run with good Artis!

It's not about whether it can be made to work it is about the fact that it takes so much to make it work!


FvS and Cleric are the weakest two classes in the game, tbf it's a wash which one is weaker at this point!

FvS needs something, I don't know what because frankly I feel the class is completely superfluous as it doesn't have anything of its own! It doesn't really have a reason to exist when Cleric, Druid and Paladin pretty much cover it for divines now. {even with Cleric being superweak too and Druid being completely broken}.

[Iriale]

And yet again you fail to name a single weaker class than FvS or Cleric!

I have run with good FvSs, I have run with good Clerics, I have run with good Artis!

It's not about whether it can be made to work it is about the fact that it takes so much to make it work!


FvS and Cleric are the weakest two classes in the game, tbf it's a wash which one is weaker at this point!

FvS needs something, I don't know what because frankly I feel the class is completely superfluous as it doesn't have anything of its own! It doesn't really have a reason to exist when Cleric, Druid and Paladin pretty much cover it for divines now. {even with Cleric being superweak too and Druid being completely broken}.

Druid and artis have a lot worse scaling in epics than fvs. A lot! Fvs need a pass, Fran, but they are not weakest class, that is not true.

And yeah, fvs (as ALL spellcasting classes... well, warlock no) need A LOT of investiment. That is not new. And the problem with fvs melees is not the base class, is the outdated and weak warpiest tree (that is being updated now... wait to see the changes before to say nothing)

[Renvar]

It's a strong class. I have friends with very strong fvs toons already in the game. A little more of spell point conservation (with SLAs and metamagic cheaper) and a broader spell selection (with earthquake they would get a strong CC spell, and this is a divine spell in D&D, not only druid spell!) they will be very strong. As base features they don't need more. Polish a little their enhancement trees and a new tree can to do the rest.

Fran, I'm sorry to say this, but you need to learn to build and manage better your toons. Fvs class deserve his pass? Sure. They need other enhancement tree and their 2 trees need a polish. They need SLAs. Fvs are the weakest class? NO

FvS are the weakest of the casting classes. That does NOT mean that you can't build a great FvS that is fun to play. It just means you have to accept that your spell pen and DC's will be lower than they could be if you played a different class.

I play an FvS (and a Cleric). Right now the FvS is more fun. But, let's not confuse player skill with class strength. The best players can make any class with full past lives and gear look OP.

The point is, after these cleric domains are done, anything I want to do with the FvS, the cleric can do better.

Melee? War Domain cleric will kill an FvS because they share a Warpriest tree and get the same number of feats. The Cleric will just have heavy armor, +5 to damage, +10 to MP, all exotic weapons feats for free (generally the better crit profile weapons), and Holy Sword for +1 to crit range/multiplier. I don't care how good your friends are at building, they can't fix that.

DC Caster? Pick your poison. FvS get +3 to spell pen and +1 to evo DC. That's it. The knowledge domain gives +3 to all DC's. DD gives +2 to evo or Necro. And their capstone is +2 wis. FvS only get +2 cha. So Clerics get a +6 to 1, +4 to all schools split. With +13 to spell pen. Or, go Law domain and get +8 to one school and +6 to all schools and +3 to spell pen. You can still be an effective and fun FvS DC caster in elite and reaper. But you would be better at it as a cleric.

Nuker? How about +40 to Fire and +40 to light spell power? (On top of what you get in the DD tree) With Searing Light, Sunburst, and Flame Strike SLA's? To go with Nimbus, Searing Light, Holy Smite, and Flame Strike from DD. And you have sunburst, sunbolt and sunbeam in your spell book. And the ability to cast Flame Strike 30 times per rest for no mana (regen 1 use every 120 seconds) What do FvS get? One SLA in Capstone. Most of which are not offensive. And a lantern Archon who targets whomever the hell it wants.

Healer? Don't even go there.

Sure, FvS is a fun class right now. Sure you can make a great FvS. But, with these domains, there is no niche for an FvS beyond flavor. Druids still have Wolf Form. That is a unique class feature niche. As casters or healers, they are surpassed by clerics, too. Almost as much as FvS.