Against the new cleric turning

[goodspeed]

It's a nerf because if you have the investment to make turning work, you can instakill multiple mobs, as opposed to doing damage that will come nowhere near that kind of power. And just like any ability, it shouldn't be a handout and should take some investment to get better.

I am so against this change I don't have the words, but I'll do my best:

1. Getting rid of even more DnD in the game is a mistake. I'm so tired of the game being changed to get further and further and further away from its source. I realize that some adjustments need to be made because DDO isn't DnD. But it's still supposed to, you know, resemble it.

2. This is a huge nerf to turn undead. No way will the damage approach the instakill numbers.

3. Same, same, same, same.... Do we have to keep losing unique abilities to replace them with the same thing everyone else has? Oh, AOE damage. No one has that! Oh, wait...So what makes the cleric damage different than a sorc, warlock, etc...? Nothing. They're all just blasting away.

4. Oh, and all you guys that invested? Apparently no one cares about you.

I'm tired of seeing SSG not figure out how to "scale" all-or-nothing abilities and instead ditch them entirely for a simplistic straight-damage scaling ability. All-or-nothing is part of DnD. If we all wanted to always just blast away, we could play WoW. All-or-nothing abilities, like TU and DC casting, are supposed to be balanced by the dungeons. Oh, look, there are non-undead mixed in with undead. Guess you have to mix it up. Hey, that dungeon has a mix of mobs with different string saves. Guess you can't just necro your way through. Oh no, there are traps that matter! Good thing we brought a trapper!

You know. DUNGEON CREATIVITY. That's how you solve the problem of all-or-nothing. Not this complete and utter [redacted] of "It would be easier to do if it just did this! We will Just change it entirely!"

If I go to a restaurant and order tiramisu, they'd better not just sub in Fig Newtons because it's easier.

So basically a shirardi cleric. Spend 9 lives getting those dcs and power or make a first life and frontload it lol. Horray new self sufficient 11 cleric builds.

[karatemack]

Turn Undead as a base ability right now only blows up undead if you reach twice the limit of hit dice as the undead, and it's currently impossible to hit that mark in DDO from about level 15 onwards.

There are clerics (multiple) in game right now who can turn some of the undead in the new raid. I offered to run my main with the DEVs to help them understand how we're using this ability (multiple times this was offered) but no one seemed interested.

The major problem with Turn Undead that the cleric changes are trying to fix is that Turn Undead drastically falls off in Epics, even with Mighty Turning. Players are only barely able to maybe Turn some things (if anything), and that's with half of the actual requirements of Turn Undead as it stands today.

I agree with the issue, but disagree entirely with the solution. Other alternatives have been offered. Why not offer an epic feat which doubles the effect of Mighty Turning? (Would have helped immensely if the DEV team responded on the Hit Dice questions in the Turn Undead thread I recently started.) Or make some of the eq bonuses multiplicative instead of additive? You can increase the bonus to turning granted by cleric PLs. There are a large number of other solutions to help it scale and still build in "gate keepers", but the current proposed solution is a nerf which not only ruins a classic ability which differentiates the cleric class... but also negates much of the work people who play cleric spent in gaining the PLs and EQ to effectively turn undead.

EDIT: Also, for those who feel it isn't a "nerf"... currently undead in the new raid are being insta-killed with the ability. Will the damage scale to be able to deplete that much HP with the new design? If not... then how is it not a "nerf"?

[Lynnabel]

There are clerics (multiple) in game right now who can turn some of the undead in the new raid.

That's with a halved turn requirement due to Mighty Turning from the cleric trees. The enhancement cuts the base requirement by 50%. Without it, it's currently impossible to destroy, much less Turn, any undead in upper heroics to late epics.

[karatemack]

That's with a halved turn requirement due to Mighty Turning from the cleric trees. The enhancement cuts the base requirement by 50%. Without it, it's currently impossible to destroy, much less Turn, any undead in upper heroics to late epics.

Sorry if I made it seem like I was contradicting what you said about post lvl 15 and the hit dice. I was pointing out that despite what you mentioned, people have been able to effectively utilize turn undead even up until the new raid.

Lynnabel... I seriously love all of your work on DDO. Please save Turn Undead for us!!!

[Cordovan]

Sorry if I made it seem like I was contradicting what you said about post lvl 15 and the hit dice. I was pointing out that despite what you mentioned, people have been able to effectively utilize turn undead even up until the new raid.

Lynnabel... I seriously love all of your work on DDO. Please save Turn Undead for us!!!

What leads you to believe that, if you can currently turn undead consistently and effectively in the new raid (presumably on higher difficulties?) that you will not be able to under the new system, which offers the ability to destroy undead in the Death Domain, with an even better DC?

[Tlorrd]

I will make an assumption and either Cordo or Lynn could correct or add to if I'm right or wrong ...

Since new Turn Undead mechanic uses positive energy damage (unless death domain which grants instakill) then will it be affected by positive spell power AND positive critical change AND positive critical damage bonuses? My assumption is yes.

This leads me to believe that mighty turning will be removed from the radiant servant tree and the turn undead enhancements of radiant servant will be adjusted in some fashion to either increase the damage or stun length or DC or whatever.

The other point I'd like to know is if any of this is toggleable ... for example

In a raid such as Mark of Death ... it may be desirable to stun undead rather than damage or kill them (albeit it seems the stun is only short lived in the new version) ... but will the death domain instakill version be able to be toggled on and off? Also will the damage portion be able to be toggled on or off?

[karatemack]

What leads you to believe that, if you can currently turn undead consistently and effectively in the new raid (presumably on higher difficulties?) that you will not be able to under the new system, which offers the ability to destroy undead in the Death Domain, with an even better DC?

It takes a class feature and changes it into a domain feature.

What about for all those clerics who do not choose to take the Death Domain? For them it is clearly a nerf to Turn Undead, despite it's expanded usability. So... for those of us who currently utilize Turn Undead effectively in a large portion of the content... we will have to choose between a feature we were already using (Turn Undead) and any of the other new features which are being added with Domains. Why box us in just to keep an ability we already use? If the fix is to utilize the new save independent of Hit Dice and allow us to destroy them if they fail the save... why not just have that be it and add something else useful to the Death Domain?

[Vulkoorex]

I will make an assumption and either Cordo or Lynn could correct or add to if I'm right or wrong ...

Since new Turn Undead mechanic uses positive energy damage (unless death domain which grants instakill) then will it be affected by positive spell power AND positive critical change AND positive critical damage bonuses? My assumption is yes.

This leads me to believe that mighty turning will be removed from the radiant servant tree and the turn undead enhancements of radiant servant will be adjusted in some fashion to either increase the damage or stun length or DC or whatever.

The other point I'd like to know is if any of this is toggleable ... for example

In a raid such as Mark of Death ... it may be desirable to stun undead rather than damage or kill them (albeit it seems the stun is only short lived in the new version) ... but will the death domain instakill version be able to be toggled on and off? Also will the damage portion be able to be toggled on or off?

Won't the undead have epic ward to prevent instant kill like all the other mobs in epics?

[Tlorrd]

Won't the undead have epic ward to prevent instant kill like all the other mobs in epics?

Orange name and greater mobs gain deathblock from Epic Ward ... not regular epic mobs.

Epic_Ward

[MonadRebelion]

It takes a class feature and changes it into a domain feature.

After having looked more carefully at the domains it seems to me this is the thing worth thinking about. Turning is going to be nerfed in most content for all clerics except those with the death domain. So essentially the devs are saying, "If you want to have good turns, you're going to have to pay/build for it." I'm not opposed to this principle. If you want to implode everything on you cleric, I think you should have to pay for that. If you want to land destruction... etc. So since I agree with this principle, I have to ask if I think the cost is too high. I am tempted to say the cost is a bit too steep. I am tempted to say good turns should be spread out to a few more thematically appropriate builds. As Karatemack pointed out, turning is a class feature so it seems like more than one kind of cleric should be good at it.

[Vish]

I will make an assumption and either Cordo or Lynn could correct or add to if I'm right or wrong ...

Since new Turn Undead mechanic uses positive energy damage (unless death domain which grants instakill) then will it be affected by positive spell power AND positive critical change AND positive critical damage bonuses? My assumption is yes.

This.
I did not assume yes...
It seemed not stated

But IF they goto damage,
Then that damage should be scaled by positive spell power.

Or 1d4+4 per level scaled by positive sp

[Cordovan]

It is interesting to read about people saying Turn Undead is highly effective in high difficulty end game content. For almost all of the game's life the overwhelming feedback has been that "Turn Undead is broken and useless" outside of lower level content. When did this change? Is this just about turning high hit point skeletons in the new raid?

[Tlorrd]

This.
I did not assume yes...
It seemed not stated

True ... it was not stated but I am hopeful that it is the case (that positive spell power, crit chance, and crit damage will affect the TU damage) ... a little math for an example. Please correct my math if I made a mistake.

1d4+4 = avg 6.5 damage (5-8 range)

6.5 x 20 (capped cleric) = 130 damage (100-160 range)

Cleric in Divine ED (+5 cleric levels) = 162.5 damage (125-200 range)

Positive spell power 1000 at level 30 = 1625 damage (1250-2000 range)

Critical w/o critical damage bonuses = 3250 damage (2500-4000 range)

Critical Damage (for example) 30% (LGS equippment) = 3737 damage (2875-4600 range)

Currently TUs can be spammed w/ minimal cooldown. Also I will make another assumption (I know not good a practice) ... but the radiant servant tree will see increases in positive spell crit chance and crit damage multiplier. This will boost TU damage more.

[Tlorrd]

It is interesting to read about people saying Turn Undead is highly effective in high difficulty end game content. For almost all of the game's life the overwhelming feedback has been that "Turn Undead is broken and useless" outside of lower level content. When did this change? Is this just about turning high hit point skeletons in the new raid?

The original premise is correct ... Turn Undead in higher level content is fairly useless. The updated version gives some flexibility for those that wish to instakill or do dps with stun while attaining other benefits.

The other alternative that I see would be to make the instakill back in radiant servant enhancement tree and move it up to tier 5 or something.

[karatemack]

It is interesting to read about people saying Turn Undead is highly effective in high difficulty end game content. For almost all of the game's life the overwhelming feedback has been that "Turn Undead is broken and useless" outside of lower level content. When did this change? Is this just about turning high hit point skeletons in the new raid?

The new raid is being used as a benchmark for the damage equivalent (which is fair since many can turn undead in the new raid and the undead being turned there have tons of HP).

No, most people are not effectively using Turn Undead to destroy undead in EE/LE or Reaper mode today. But they should be able to if they have invested in enhancements, past lives and gear (oh the many sad songs of all of we clerics who patiently waited for better turning gear....) That is what we have been asking for... the ability to scale Turn Undead into Epics/Legendary/Reaper... not a dismantling of the ability to turn it into something different.

Also, it is worth noting that Turn Undead is hardly worthless in today's game. In Heroics it's good all the way to 20 on elite. A few lives I have skipped korthos and went straight to Catacombs, Necro and Deleras because of its effectiveness. Many people use Turn Undead effectively in Epics and Legendary as well... either on the normal setting or in EH/LH EE/LE to stun undead rather than instakill. Please also keep in mind that not everyone runs content on its most difficult settings... what about those folks? For anyone running content on NORMAL this will be a huge nerf (outside of Death Domain).

With the system you are implementing... you will only further cement the fact that the implosion spell is a far better method for dealing with undead than Turn Undead.

[MonadRebelion]

It is interesting to read about people saying Turn Undead is highly effective in high difficulty end game content. For almost all of the game's life the overwhelming feedback has been that "Turn Undead is broken and useless" outside of lower level content. When did this change? Is this just about turning high hit point skeletons in the new raid?

I think the idea that turning is working in high levels mostly has to do with the raid. I haven't crunched the numbers in a few years, but from what I remember turning was basically useless against stuff with around 60hd. This meant it was effective against undead kobolds (I think they were 55HD) in EE 3bc, but nothing higher. I haven't run RSO (I'm taking a DDO break atm), but I saw some video of reaper RSO and if I remember correctly the skeletons only had 49 HD, so they were in range surprisingly.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

The other alternative that I see would be to make the instakill back in radiant servant enhancement tree and move it up to tier 5 or something.

+1[

[karatemack]

I think the idea that turning is working in high levels mostly has to do with the raid. I haven't crunched the numbers in a few years, but from what I remember turning was basically useless against stuff with around 60hd. This meant it was effective against undead kobolds (I think they were 55HD) in EE 3bc, but nothing higher. I haven't run RSO (I'm taking a DDO break atm), but I saw some video of reaper RSO and if I remember correctly the skeletons only had 49 HD, so they were in range surprisingly.

Are you basing off of CR? There may also be a turning bonus to HD which does not increase HP but provides a bonus to HD for turning purposes only. Never got DEV clarification on that.

[karatemack]

The other alternative that I see would be to make the instakill back in radiant servant enhancement tree and move it up to tier 5 or something.

That would be fine. Give the Death Domain something else. :P

Also, if this is going in T5 of the RS Tree... then perhaps move the Aura to the 4th Core?

[SerPounce]

It takes a class feature and changes it into a domain feature.

What about for all those clerics who do not choose to take the Death Domain? For them it is clearly a nerf to Turn Undead, despite it's expanded usability. So... for those of us who currently utilize Turn Undead effectively in a large portion of the content... we will have to choose between a feature we were already using (Turn Undead) and any of the other new features which are being added with Domains. Why box us in just to keep an ability we already use? If the fix is to utilize the new save independent of Hit Dice and allow us to destroy them if they fail the save... why not just have that be it and add something else useful to the Death Domain?

For clerics that don't specialize in TU it's a buff, because TU gains some value rather than no value. For clerics that do specialize in TU it's a buff because you get a better DC (and the other benefits of death domain). Yes, you're forced to make a choice where various options are attractive, but that's the essence of good character building. There is absolutely no way that your character becomes worse than it is now, it is therefore decidedly not a "nerf."

Options:
1. Get a more powerful DC to your TU and keep its instakill
2. Give up TU instakill to get other neat stuff.

No one is worse off. Not getting every bonus from every option doesn't mean you were nerfed.