Against the new cleric turning

[Forzah]

This is incorrect. All one has to do is address what is quoted. Theres nothing imaginary about what you quoted. If you cant address it, simply dont quote it.

Please explain when something counts as addressing what is quoted in your world. I am puzzled and I doubt I am the only one.

Im too busy playing the game to hijack threads.

The number of posts in this thread seems to indicate otherwise.

You speak for everyone now? Wont play the game, but willing to lawyer what can and cannot be said on the forum for said game.

Clearly addressing the poster rather than what is posted. Please apply what you expect of others also to your own posting.

[Niminae]

The claim of not saying anything has been incorrect each and every time.

You are incorrect. The "claim" was not that you don't say anything. You say quite a lot. Walls of text, but the volume is unfortunately not connected with quality. The statement, not "claim" as that is not a correct word to use in this situation, was that you seem to devolve into making the same absurd demand that others tell you what you mean when you could very simply do so yourself and refrain from issuing that demand in the first place.

Just because someone quotes you does not mean that they understood what your intent was when you made the quoted statement, and your refusal to clarify your meaning means that any misunderstanding of your intent must perforce go uncorrected. And all because you choose to issue this demand rather than simply restating your point so that others might understand it the way that you intended it. Or even by just stating your point again using the same words if you feel that they need no alteration of clarification despite the very clear result that you are not communicating your point clearly enough for others to understand it. You seem to be prepared to spend far more time and energy insisting that others tell you what your point is than it would take to simply restate your point. And that is puzzling.

Me, I see this as a, if you'll pardon the citation, "first-week-of-first-year conversational trap" that you like to use to try to change the subject and shut down a valid conversation while trying desperately to convince people who can clearly see what you are attempting to do that you're not attempting to do this.

But hey, prove me wrong. Simply and clearly restate your position, instead of demanding that others do so for you. This isn't a hard thing for you to do, is it? Doing so would be far quicker and far simpler than insisting that others tell you what you meant when you should be capable of understanding that there would be no misunderstanding at all if you had managed to communicate clearly in the first place.

[karatemack]

Stop feeding trolls and eventually they'll starve.

You know what you posted, and if someone has a question about your meaning... they will ask instead of misconstruing your words to fit their agenda.

Arguing semantics and someone else's twisted logic is only feeding their ego. Those conversations which are the most frustrating for you, are the most enjoyable for them.

The most boring conversation we can have (from this type of person's perspective), is one which stays on topic and refuses to participate in the petty chatter.

Please don't feed the trolls.

[Grace_ana]

Please don't feed the trolls.

Especially after midnight.

[Enoach]

I do hope that the development teams look past the back and forth stuff and look at the suggestions from those who play clerics and have observations about how TU is working both at the Heroic, Epic and Legendary levels.

[chipotle47]

Stop feeding trolls and eventually they'll starve.

You know what you posted, and if someone has a question about your meaning... they will ask instead of misconstruing your words to fit their agenda.

Arguing semantics and someone else's twisted logic is only feeding their ego. Those conversations which are the most frustrating for you, are the most enjoyable for them.

The most boring conversation we can have (from this type of person's perspective), is one which stays on topic and refuses to participate in the petty chatter.

Please don't feed the trolls.

Thank you for this post. It brought me clarity.

[chipotle47]

I do hope that the development teams look past the back and forth stuff and look at the suggestions from those who play clerics and have observations about how TU is working both at the Heroic, Epic and Legendary levels.

I'm pretty sure the development team is quite used to sifting through the mud on the forums to find the gold. Like you, I hope they take the noteworthy suggestions into account.

[Jetrule]

Many players agree that the sun domain is the right domain to enhance turning however it is done. I heard on Cordovans Friday live stream That Sev felt death was the best spot for it because it was a obvious dc focused domain.

Here is the problem me amigo. DC focused cleric casters will use wisdom as a primary stat. Turn focused clerics will use charisma as a primary stat. What better place than the sun domain for a charisma cleric? The focus in the sun domain is on no dc damage spells, with some evocation dc spells backing up the no save stuff. So not only is it thematically correct it is also build wise a good choice for domain.

[nat_1]

Stop feeding trolls and eventually they'll starve.

You know what you posted, and if someone has a question about your meaning... they will ask instead of misconstruing your words to fit their agenda.

Arguing semantics and someone else's twisted logic is only feeding their ego. Those conversations which are the most frustrating for you, are the most enjoyable for them.

The most boring conversation we can have (from this type of person's perspective), is one which stays on topic and refuses to participate in the petty chatter.

Please don't feed the trolls.

For the most part that's true. Some are self-sustaining. In some cases, for example it's common now to use "Everybody is saying..." to bring up a point without actually supporting it. The best counter to this is to say "Who is saying? Please provide quotes." What Chai has done is very similar. "Lots of examples..." is the chosen phrase. It is as meaningless as "Everybody is saying..." and the counter is to ask that the examples be produced.

[Chai]

Many players agree that the sun domain ids the right domain to enhance turning however it is done. I heard on Cordovans Friday live stream That Sev felt death was the best spot for it because it was a obvious dc focused domain.

Here is the problem me amigo. DC focused cleric casters will use wisdom as a primary stat. Turn focused clerics will use charisma as a primary stat. What better place than the sun domain for a charisma cleric? The focus in the sun domain is on no dc damage spells, with some evocation dc spells backing up the no save stuff. So not only is it thematically correct it is also build wise a good choice for domain.

I agree. This also forces a trade off between wisdom and cha. While people can get both fairly high, they cannot max out both, due to the nature of having to choose which stat to apply level ups to.

The issue I see the possibility of here is not regarding something being nerfed, but in the class becoming OP, and the nerf demands on the forums happening as they have in a pattern based fashion after most revamps. DCs should be viable. TU should be viable. Trading one for the other is the answer which keeps players from being able to optimize for all of it on a caster platform that can heal itself with overkill healing (still enough healing with low-mid skull reaper penalty applied).

[Sunnie]

1) It wont be less useful. It will be a choice.

2) For those who disagree, we have been using TU charges for other cleric abilities for ~10 years now. Was TU made less useful?

3) Perhaps those who STILL disagree can explain why no one else should be given the choice to trade one power for another, simply because their subjective choice would be to use TU.

For the sake of clarity I took the liberty of numbering your points as well as my responses to them.


1) Currently, for the cost of 8 AP, any cleric can obtain Mighty Turning and destroy any undead they turn.
This is an option that, as I understand things, will disappear with the cleric pass as currently in the works.
Furthermore, instead of a relatively simple comparison of basically cleric level plus bonuses versus monster level, the saving throw mechanic will be utilised for TU. Throughout heroic levels, this will make it more difficult for clerics across the board to turn undead. It might make it possible to turn some enemies that were previously impossible to turn no matter the investment in epic quests above 25, but this will require an investment on par with DC casting.

So, the proposed changes will drastically increase the cost if a cleric wants to be able to utilise turn undead with any efficiency. TU is already a niche ability since it only works on one type of enemy: undead. The proposed changes would make this niche ability only useable if you invest heavily into. That pretty clearly makes it less useful than it currently is.

To add insult to injury, the new Turn Undead would deal damage and briefly stun enemies instead of either destroying them (realistically obtainable for every cleric today, NOT realistic with the proposed changes) or putting them out of commission for a long time.


2) Enabling the use of TU charges for other things is not at all the same as changing the way the basic Turn Undead works. I hope that's clear, if not, please elaborate where any unclearness may be.


3) Clerics would not get the option of trading one power for another, the power of TU would be severely diminished for everyone. Then the possibility of restoring it back to something that for 80% of the game will be LESS powerful than it is now and for the remaining 20% would be marginally useful would be added, but the cost of doing so will be greater than it currently is.

[Chai]

3) Clerics would not get the option of trading one power for another, the power of TU would be severely diminished for everyone. Then the possibility of restoring it back to something that for 80% of the game will be LESS powerful than it is now and for the remaining 20% would be marginally useful would be added, but the cost of doing so will be greater than it currently is.

This is the part I disagree with. In what is proposed, clerics are getting the ability to choose which set of powers they want, aka trading being locked out of other choices by picking one. Furthermore, it is only less powerful for those who are heavily invested. Those who are not heavily invested in it, lose nothing, but gain something. For the parts of the game TU doesnt work in regardless of investment, we gain the ability to have something else, and invest in that instead, and it will work at least some of the time, or enhance other abilities we were already using.

As I stated previously, I would be perfectly fine if they made the "enhanced turn undead" that people ask for one of the domains (looks like sun domain is the popular furumite choice) and then have the company datamine which of these choices is gravitated to the most, the least, and everything in between.

And for those poo poo-ing this as poor game design and wanting to keep the old ability the way it is, this is the design the game uses currently. We already have the ability to not invest anything into TU if we want, and instead use the charges for a number of other things. Examples include:

Positive Energy Burst, which heals targets around you and removes negative levels and stat damage.
Divine Cleansing, which removes certain status effects from the target.
Divine Healing, which restores health over time.
Purge Dark Magic, which removes effects from the target.
Martyrdom, which when you are killed expends 4 turn undead charges, and heals nearby allies for a large amount.
Positive Energy Aura, which creates a healing over time zone around you.
Reactive Heal, which applies a buff which is consumed when the target drops below 50% hp, consumes itself and heals the target. It also grants immunity to its own effect for 3 minutes.
Divine Vitality, which restores spell points to the target.
Confront Any Foe, which inflicts extra light damage on a successful hit.

[karatemack]

3) Clerics would not get the option of trading one power for another, the power of TU would be severely diminished for everyone. Then the possibility of restoring it back to something that for 80% of the game will be LESS powerful than it is now and for the remaining 20% would be marginally useful would be added, but the cost of doing so will be greater than it currently is.

This is so clearly stated, that any further argument of the point is pointless. If someone does not "get it" based on this, they probably never will.

[Sunnie]

This is the part I disagree with. In what is proposed, clerics are getting the ability to choose which set of powers they want, aka trading being locked out of other choices by picking one. Furthermore, it is only less powerful for those who are heavily invested. Those who are not heavily invested in it, lose nothing, but gain something. For the parts of the game TU doesnt work in regardless of investment, we gain the ability to have something else, and invest in that instead, and it will work at least some of the time, or enhance other abilities we were already using.

You completely fail to address my first point in my previous post, namely the one dealing with the comparative investment of a minimum of 8AP (and a moderate amount of charisma, I suppose) as of now versus the feat and gear investment of DC casting as proposed. You currently do not need to be heavily invested to turn undead during heroic levels, with the proposed changes one would have to be. Please address this point and explain how that does not make TU a less attractive option than it currently is.

As I stated previously, I would be perfectly fine if they made the "enhanced turn undead" that people ask for one of the domains (looks like sun domain is the popular furumite choice) and then have the company datamine which of these choices is gravitated to the most, the least, and everything in between.

So they implement the changes, and then they datamine, and then what? The changes will already be implemented then, SSG is not going to undo them, they don't have anywhere near enough personnel for that. The data will show that people gravitate to the more powerful choices, and absolutely nothing will come of it. Why do you keep bringing this up at all?

And for those poo poo-ing this as poor game design and wanting to keep the old ability the way it is, this is the design the game uses currently. We already have the ability to not invest anything into TU if we want, and instead use the charges for a number of other things. Examples include:

Positive Energy Burst, which heals targets around you and removes negative levels and stat damage.
Divine Cleansing, which removes certain status effects from the target.
Divine Healing, which restores health over time.
Purge Dark Magic, which removes effects from the target.
Martyrdom, which when you are killed expends 4 turn undead charges, and heals nearby allies for a large amount.
Positive Energy Aura, which creates a healing over time zone around you.
Reactive Heal, which applies a buff which is consumed when the target drops below 50% hp, consumes itself and heals the target. It also grants immunity to its own effect for 3 minutes.
Divine Vitality, which restores spell points to the target.
Confront Any Foe, which inflicts extra light damage on a successful hit.

This is technically correct, but as I said before, completely unrelated to changing the way in which the basic TU functions. Please elaborate on how that is unclear to you.

[karatemack]

Please elaborate on how that is unclear to you.

[Forzah]

You completely fail to address my first point in my previous post, namely the one dealing with the comparative investment of a minimum of 8AP (and a moderate amount of charisma, I suppose) as of now versus the feat and gear investment of DC casting as proposed. You currently do not need to be heavily invested to turn undead during heroic levels, with the proposed changes one would have to be. Please address this point and explain how that does not make TU a less attractive option than it currently is.

The "real objective answer" is to simply call it "incorrect" without further explanation when it doesn't fit the narrative

[Chai]

You completely fail to address my first point in my previous post, namely the one dealing with the comparative investment of a minimum of 8AP (and a moderate amount of charisma, I suppose) as of now versus the feat and gear investment of DC casting as proposed. You currently do not need to be heavily invested to turn undead during heroic levels, with the proposed changes one would have to be. Please address this point and explain how that does not make TU a less attractive option than it currently is.

I addressed it by saying many choose not to use it currently, and instead opt to use the charges differently. I have to post the list of examples yet again of course, as people will quote them and then deny they exist for multiple pages.

Positive Energy Burst, which heals targets around you and removes negative levels and stat damage.
Divine Cleansing, which removes certain status effects from the target.
Divine Healing, which restores health over time.
Purge Dark Magic, which removes effects from the target.
Martyrdom, which when you are killed expends 4 turn undead charges, and heals nearby allies for a large amount.
Positive Energy Aura, which creates a healing over time zone around you.
Reactive Heal, which applies a buff which is consumed when the target drops below 50% hp, consumes itself and heals the target. It also grants immunity to its own effect for 3 minutes.
Divine Vitality, which restores spell points to the target.
Confront Any Foe, which inflicts extra light damage on a successful hit.

So they implement the changes, and then they datamine, and then what? The changes will already be implemented then, SSG is not going to undo them, they don't have anywhere near enough personnel for that. The data will show that people gravitate to the more powerful choices, and absolutely nothing will come of it. Why do you keep bringing this up at all?

It would tell you which is most popular, which is least popular, etc...which would refute the claim of "most want it this way" and all the "we -vs- you" (singular versus plural) that happens in these discussions.

This is technically correct, but as I said before, completely unrelated to changing the way in which the basic TU functions. Please elaborate on how that is unclear to you.

Its not unreleated at all. What people are saying is they dont want to give up TU and use some other ability that uses its charges, and Im outlining how many already do just that, and have been doing so for years. This is not something new that will happen or may happen. This is an old tried and true system that has happened for a long time now, and in that system, people can and have chosen not to invest anything in TU, and instead use the charges for something else.

[Sunnie]

I addressed it by saying many choose not to use it currently, and instead opt to use the charges differently. I have to post the list of examples yet again of course, as people will quote them and then deny they exist for multiple pages.

Positive Energy Burst, which heals targets around you and removes negative levels and stat damage.
Divine Cleansing, which removes certain status effects from the target.
Divine Healing, which restores health over time.
Purge Dark Magic, which removes effects from the target.
Martyrdom, which when you are killed expends 4 turn undead charges, and heals nearby allies for a large amount.
Positive Energy Aura, which creates a healing over time zone around you.
Reactive Heal, which applies a buff which is consumed when the target drops below 50% hp, consumes itself and heals the target. It also grants immunity to its own effect for 3 minutes.
Divine Vitality, which restores spell points to the target.
Confront Any Foe, which inflicts extra light damage on a successful hit.

Again, you are not addressing the point that the basic turn undead is currently useable throughout heroic levels with minimal investment, and that if the proposed changes go through it will not be useable without a much heavier investment into it. Whether people use the charges to turn undead or for some other purpose is a separate question, which quite frankly has no impact on the debate regarding how the basic turn undead does or should function.

It would tell you which is most popular, which is least popular, etc...which would refute the claim of "most want it this way" and all the "we -vs- you" (singular versus plural) that happens in these discussions.

It would tell us which is most popular in the situation when the data is gathered. Since the data you propose to collect can only be gathered AFTER the changes have been implemented, the data would tell us nothing about about whether the current situation is preferable to the proposed one, or to a hypothetical one where TU is left alone or adjusted in some different way.

Its not unreleated at all. What people are saying is they dont want to give up TU and use some other ability that uses its charges, and Im outlining how many already do just that, and have been doing so for years. This is not something new that will happen or may happen. This is an old tried and true system that has happened for a long time now, and in that system, people can and have chosen not to invest anything in TU, and instead use the charges for something else.

You are almost correct.
People, including me, are indeed saying that they don't want to give up TU.
However, I have not noticed widespread opinions to the effect that there should not be alternative uses for TU charges. That is certainly not an opinion which I hold. If there have been posts in which such an opinion has been clearly expressed in this thread, please be so kind as to provide citations so that I may easily find them and rectify my impression of the discussion so far.

The proposed changes would constitute a drastic change to the basic TU functionality, this is the functionality that many people would apparently like to see preserved. I don't think anyone would complain about keeping all the additional uses for TU charges that you listed in the game as well.

[Chai]

Again, you are not addressing the point that the basic turn undead is currently useable throughout heroic levels with minimal investment, and that if the proposed changes go through it will not be useable without a much heavier investment into it.

The minimal investment claim is correct through about level 10 or so, then becomes incorrect. At that point, in elite and reaper, where a large portion of the playerbase is currently, it becomes a gear investment, and a choice between gearing for cha and gearing for wis. It still works, but starts declining from that point. So in 2/3rds of the game it progresses from beginning to require investment to doesnt work regardless of investment. Thus people stop building for it and use it for the other things I listed, most of which do work throughout the entire game.

Furthermore, once you get positive energy burst that is far more effective than TU in heroics. it not only wipes out all undead most of the time, matching the effect of TU, it also heals all allies (including yourself) and removes stat damage and neg levels. In those cases where TU trivializes undead content, positive energy burst is more effective in doing so anyhow. It also saves gear slots and a feat, because the cleric is already geared for healing anyhow, and that is already what powers PEB.

It would tell us which is most popular in the situation when the data is gathered. Since the data you propose to collect can only be gathered AFTER the changes have been implemented, the data would tell us nothing about about whether the current situation is preferable to the proposed one, or to a hypothetical one where TU is left alone or adjusted in some different way.

Nope, because my proposal once again, includes making one of the domains EXACTLY what you have now. The data would show that when compared to the other options, most people do not desire that which they have now, do not use it, and would be perfectly willing to trade it off for something that synergizes with their abilities they have already cultivated. This would handedly refute the nerf claim.

You are almost correct.

By large degree I am correct. The feedback over the years has already shown this to be true. You have a post from a company employee themselves confirming there has been alot of feedback over the years calling TU useless. Continuing to repeatedly deny this is how most feel after that point really doesnt hold water. They have already done the legwork.

People, including me, are indeed saying that they don't want to give up TU.
However, I have not noticed widespread opinions to the effect that there should not be alternative uses for TU charges. That is certainly not an opinion which I hold. If there have been posts in which such an opinion has been clearly expressed in this thread, please be so kind as to provide citations so that I may easily find them and rectify my impression of the discussion so far.

The proposed changes would constitute a drastic change to the basic TU functionality, this is the functionality that many people would apparently like to see preserved. I don't think anyone would complain about keeping all the additional uses for TU charges that you listed in the game as well.

This is why game companies (and most software companies worth their salt) datamine. The forums represent one subset of users. Datamining gathers data from all of them. What I see on this are 8 people who are vehemently against the changes, with lots of repetition. While they can create a high quantity of feedback through that repetition, that does not mean its coming from a high quantity of people. A company employee already confirmed what they see from the highest quantity of feedback over the years, and it doesnt agree with a large number of players finding the ability useful over the spread of levels you claim it is.

If you feel so strongly that this is not the case, you should be whole handedly agreeing with my proposal of keeping one domain as clerics are now, with zero changes. That way the people who so strongly feel what is proposed is a nerf to them still have the choice to build their clerics the same way they do now, and those who want to choose to build differently can do so. There is history to back this up. Crit Rage Barbarians in 2008. People who screamed FB was a nerf to crit rage builds (though they were incorrect) had the option to keep their outdated crit rage build. People who wanted to build FB after the changes could choose to do that.

[Forzah]

Nope, because my proposal once again, includes making one of the domains EXACTLY what you have now. The data would show that when compared to the other options, most people do not desire that which they have now, do not use it, and would be perfectly willing to trade it off for something that synergizes with their abilities they have already cultivated. This would handedly refute the nerf claim.



By large degree I am correct. The feedback over the years has already shown this to be true. You have a post from a company employee themselves confirming there has been alot of feedback over the years calling TU useless. Continuing to repeatedly deny this is how most feel after that point really doesnt hold water. They have already done the legwork.



This is why game companies (and most software companies worth their salt) datamine. The forums represent one subset of users. Datamining gathers data from all of them. What I see on this are 8 people who are vehemently against the changes, with lots of repetition. While they can create a high quantity of feedback through that repetition, that does not mean its coming from a high quantity of people. A company employee already confirmed what they see from the highest quantity of feedback over the years, and it doesnt agree with a large number of players finding the ability useful over the spread of levels you claim it is.

If you feel so strongly that this is not the case, you should be whole handedly agreeing with my proposal of keeping one domain as clerics are now, with zero changes. That way the people who so strongly feel what is proposed is a nerf to them still have the choice to build their clerics the same way they do now, and those who want to choose to build differently can do so. There is history to back this up. Crit Rage Barbarians in 2008. People who screamed FB was a nerf to crit rage builds (though they were incorrect) had the option to keep their outdated crit rage build. People who wanted to build FB after the changes could choose to do that.

Besides that this proposal will never happen, the data that comes from it is completely meaningless.

Suppose you give people a better car, but people like the seats in their old car better. Naturally the data show that almost all people pick the better car. That doesn't mean the seats of the new car shouldn't be improved.