Turn Undead Guide: 2017

[goblean]

Hi! DDOtalk71 when you get into the PC day to day, maybe you will find out they actually pull from 3, 4 and 5e. I hope you have a far more open mind when you are attempting to give feedback to improve this game and move it into the future. Also, DDO uses a whole bunch of homebrew stuff that isn't core.

To make things easier:
1. Yes they do pull stuff from 5E.
2. They use other editions, they use or make their own homebrew, they may use all sorts of fun stuff.
3. Hey, that last point would be a good idea if they allowed some sort of enhancement, or cleric feat that allowed turning/banishing of fiends.

That would be a good point, if DDO was (loosely) based on 5th edition SRD. But it is not.

Here is the correct link for you:

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Turn_or_Rebuke_Undead

What other editions or homebrew rule sets or other games do is not relevant, imo. If you look hard enough, you can find all kinds of fun stuff.

Here is a link where D&D 2E supports using Turn Undead on extraplanar creatures and turns it into a banishment feature almost:

https://alzrius.wordpress.com/2016/0...fiends-add-2e/

[SirValentine]

Wisdom is Willpower!

Turn Undead is about having the Willpower to turn/destroy them!

Not exactly. Though common definitions can give us clues, game terms have some subtle distinctions. E.g., having the "strength" to resist poison or disease isn't the attribute "Strength".

Wisdom certainly includes defensive willpower. Knowing your own mind and not being unduly influenced, be it by bluffs or mind-affecting magic.

Wisdom is not (nor ever has been, to my knowledge) about projecting your own influence on others. That's what Charisma is for.

[SirValentine]

Clerics are not just healers or just casters or just melees, they are ALL THREE! Like Bards they have multiple abilities!

Taking two or even one of those abilities away from them basically gimps them as if you want to be just a caster why aren't you playing one of the multiple classes that cater to that?

Playing a Cleric is playing one of the classes that cater to being a caster. Clerics get full spell levels, same as Wiz, Sorc, Drd. You really can't be any more of a caster than a Cleric already is.

Which is beside the point. I think it's extremely rude and disrespectful for you to be telling other people they shouldn't play a caster Cleric (or melee Cleric for that matter). How about you play your character however you like, and let us do likewise?

[SirValentine]

Hi! DDOtalk71 when you get into the PC day to day, maybe you will find out they actually pull from 3, 4 and 5e. I hope you have a far more open mind when you are attempting to give feedback to improve this game and move it into the future.

Don't listen to him. The fact that they have previously done such horrible things is no reason to encourage them to do so even more. Stick to your guns on the 3.5 rules roots of DDO!

Having an open mind shouldn't mean letting your brain fall out.

[Livmo]

Playing a Cleric is playing one of the classes that cater to being a caster. Clerics get full spell levels, same as Wiz, Sorc, Drd. You really can't be any more of a caster than a Cleric already is.

Which is beside the point. I think it's extremely rude and disrespectful for you to be telling other people they shouldn't play a caster Cleric (or melee Cleric for that matter). How about you play your character however you like, and let us do likewise?

My Pure Sun Elf Destroyer build is all caster and I only use the bow as a small mana generator, so I can keep blasting my spells. Pure cleric caster for the win! Please note I'm ina off ED and could not show all the trees. The rest are spent in the Sun Elf tree.




Oops almost forgot the Lamp : ) ) Here is is:

[Niminae]

Base Stat Calculations:

Build Description	Base Stat	Level Up Points	Tomes	Enhancement Bonus (EQ)	Insightful Bonus	Quality Bonus	Exceptional Bonus	Profane Bonus	Artifact Bonus	Ship Buffs	Completionist Feat	Reaper Bonus (helm)	Human Racial Enhancement Tree	Class Enhancements	Epic Destiny	Twist of Fate	Epic Feats	Racial Past Lives	Total Charisma
Non-Human Non-Max	16	0	7	17	7	4	2	2	2	2	2	2	0	0	0	0	0	0	63
Non-Human Non-Max CHA-Focused	18	0	7	17	7	4	2	2	2	2	2	2	0	0	0	0	0	0	65
Human Max	18	5	7	17	7	4	2	2	2	2	2	2	4	4	6	5	4	2	95
Human Non-Max	16	0	7	17	7	4	2	2	2	2	2	2	4	0	0	0	0	0	67
Human Non-Max CHA-Focused	18	0	7	17	7	4	2	2	2	2	2	2	4	0	0	0	0	0	69

Nice post!

I am confused about your labels in the first table. Can you elaborate on what they are supposed to mean? I think I get 'Non-Human' and 'Human.' But 'Non-Max' (and there isn't a 'Max' except where you merged 'Human' with 'Max' on one line) and 'CHA-focused' escape me.

Drow and Dragonborn can start with a 20 CHA, and your base stat column value for non-humans does not seem to reflect that.

The label CHA-focused is used twice in the Build Description column, but in neither case does it mean "Level up points in CHA" as I would assume it should mean. Only your "Human Max" row shows level up points in CHA. The CHA-Focused rows don't show any significant difference in total CHA from the rows that don't use that label. I really don't see the meaning of this label.

You have a column for Human racial enhancements, but not for Dragonborn or Drow or Half-Elf racial enhancements. There are 2 points available in each.

You include the reaper helm bonus, but do not include the 5 points of CHA available from the Dire Thaumaturge tree.

[Renvar]

Nice post!

I am confused about your labels in the first table. Can you elaborate on what they are supposed to mean? I think I get 'Non-Human' and 'Human.' But 'Non-Max' (and there isn't a 'Max' except where you merged 'Human' with 'Max' on one line) and 'CHA-focused' escape me.

Drow and Dragonborn can start with a 20 CHA, and your base stat column value for non-humans does not seem to reflect that.

The label CHA-focused is used twice in the Build Description column, but in neither case does it mean "Level up points in CHA" as I would assume it should mean. Only your "Human Max" row shows level up points in CHA. The CHA-Focused rows don't show any significant difference in total CHA from the rows that don't use that label. I really don't see the meaning of this label.

You have a column for Human racial enhancements, but not for Dragonborn or Drow or Half-Elf racial enhancements. There are 2 points available in each.

You include the reaper helm bonus, but do not include the 5 points of CHA available from the Dire Thaumaturge tree.

For max charisma available and all the sources, see here:http://ddowiki.com/page/Charisma

You can easily do the math for a cleric from this. The only part that changes is the Class Enhancements. Generally the Reaper trees are not included in the max possible because, except for the Core 2 enhancement, the rest are only available while in Reaper difficulty. I'd say it would be fair to add that +1 from the Core 2 reaper enhancements.

[Niminae]

As for the state of Turning in the current game, if you bring a Turn-specced Cleric to the new raid, you will get love and hugs forever. I do wish they'd give it more uses and a little bit more power in the Epic game though.

I've seen this on Normal, but not above that. But I haven't run the raid much and don't recall if we had a cleric, much less a turn specced cleric, on the higher difficulties. Have you had good success with turns on H or E in RtSO?

[karatemack]

Nice post!

I am confused about your labels in the first table. Can you elaborate on what they are supposed to mean? I think I get 'Non-Human' and 'Human.' But 'Non-Max' (and there isn't a 'Max' except where you merged 'Human' with 'Max' on one line) and 'CHA-focused' escape me.

Drow and Dragonborn can start with a 20 CHA, and your base stat column value for non-humans does not seem to reflect that.

The label CHA-focused is used twice in the Build Description column, but in neither case does it mean "Level up points in CHA" as I would assume it should mean. Only your "Human Max" row shows level up points in CHA. The CHA-Focused rows don't show any significant difference in total CHA from the rows that don't use that label. I really don't see the meaning of this label.

You have a column for Human racial enhancements, but not for Dragonborn or Drow or Half-Elf racial enhancements. There are 2 points available in each.

You include the reaper helm bonus, but do not include the 5 points of CHA available from the Dire Thaumaturge tree.

All good points! At some point I will update the chart for clarity and accuracy.

For now the link DDOTalk71 provided is the best reference.

[Niminae]

For max charisma available and all the sources, see here:http://ddowiki.com/page/Charisma

You can easily do the math for a cleric from this. The only part that changes is the Class Enhancements. Generally the Reaper trees are not included in the max possible because, except for the Core 2 enhancement, the rest are only available while in Reaper difficulty. I'd say it would be fair to add that +1 from the Core 2 reaper enhancements.

Thanks for the link.

Not included on that wiki page are the Reaper bonus for helms. The 5 points available in the Dire Thaumaturge tree are included (as of today).

I'm not sure I agree with your reasoning in excluding 4 of the 5 Dire Thaumaturge simply because they require running in Reaper mode. All the other bonuses require something as well, even if it is not specifically running in Reaper mode. A requirement is a requirement, and if we're including only things that don't have requirements then a great many other sources for bonus CHA need to be dropped from the list as well. And having the Reaper helm bonus required running in reaper mode to obtain.

There are other columns on that chart that are far more fringe cases (IMO) than running in reaper mode could be considered to be. Who is going to spend all 5 Twists of Fate on CHA? Or all 4 Epic Feats? And yet these are included (presumably) because they are possible. Just as it is possible to get 5 points of CHA from the Dire Thaumaturge tree. And frankly having 5 points of CHA from the Dire Thaumaturge tree is going to result in far less of a one trick pony build than using all your Twists and all your Epic Feats for CHA is going to do.

[Faltout]

Here is an example of how this bonus calculates at level 20:
Cleric Level = 20
Turn Level Bonus = 2 (Eternal Faith) + 2 (Insightful Faith) + 3 (Improved Turning Enhancement) + 6 (PL: Cleric) + 4 (Seek Eternal Rest) + 2 (AI) + 6 (BoTR) = 25
Turn Level Bonus (max) = 2 (Eternal Faith) + 2 (Insightful Faith) + 3 (Imp Turn Enh) + 6 (PL: Cleric) + 4 (Seek Eternal Rest) + 3 (TOD RS Set) + 1 (Imp Turn Feat) + 2 (AI) + 6 (BoTR) = 29
Max HD Bonus = 2 (Eternal Faith) + 2 (Insightful Faith) + 4 (Aureon's Instruction) + 6 (BoTR) = 14
Turn Undead Check Bonus = 4 (as it is easy to max this value as shown above)

Total Turning Value = 20 (Cleric Level) + 25 (29*) (Turn Level Bonus) + 14 (MaxHD Bonus) + 4 (Turn Undead Check Bonus) = 63 (67)

Bane of the Restless only provides +6 to the turning level and the turning dice. That means it's +6 to max hit dice (because they are affected by turning level) and +12 to turning dice (as they are affected by turning level and get an extra +6 bonus).

In that regard, bane of the restless is a better option against aureon's instruction. Aureon only gives a total of +6 to max hit dice and +6 to total hit dice (instead of +12).

Also, you forgot to mention paladins. Multiclassing and taking 2 levels of paladin takes 2 turning levels out because you lose 2 levels of cleric (and paladin doesn't count 3 first levels, cause they get turning at lvl 4), but you gain 3 turning levels from the paladin KotC enhancements as well as a bonus of +6 to turning dice.

Finally, Mighty Turning is bugged and currently provides a bonus of +1 turning level and +2 turning dice.

[guardianx2009]

Finally, Mighty Turning is bugged and currently provides a bonus of +1 turning level and +2 turning dice.

I did some testing, indeed Mighty Turning is granting a bonus +1 turn level, but this is only AFTER I reincarnated and acquired the new Follower of Aureon class feat. So it may be a combination of Follower of Aureon/Aureon's Instruction + Might Turning.

My 20 level cleric nearly every turning gear/PL available (sans imp. turning feat). My max turn level is 55:

                   Turn Level  Max HD
Eternal Faith		2	2
Insightful Faith	2	2	
TOD RS Set		3	0
Imp Turning(E)		3	0
Imp Turning(F)		0	0
Past Life: Cleric	6	0
Seek Eternal Rest	4	0
Aureon's Instruction	2	4
Mighty Turning          1       0
=====================================
Total                  23       8

Summary
  Cleric Level	    20
  Turn Level        23
  Max HD             8
  Check Bonus        4
  ====================
Total Turn Level    55
  


                     Max Turn Level
Pure Cleric              55 (56*)
Morning Lord Cleric      55 (56*)
2 Pally / 18 Cleric      56 (57*)
(* Max Turn Level if you take Imp. Turning Feat)

The above assumes the only difference with Morninglord is Bane of Restless, and it provides the same turning level bonus as Aureon's Instruction and Faltout's Pally observations are accurate:

Bane of the Restless only provides +6 to the turning level and the turning dice. That means it's +6 to max hit dice (because they are affected by turning level) and +12 to turning dice (as they are affected by turning level and get an extra +6 bonus).

Also, you forgot to mention paladins. Multiclassing and taking 2 levels of paladin takes 2 turning levels out because you lose 2 levels of cleric (and paladin doesn't count 3 first levels, cause they get turning at lvl 4), but you gain 3 turning levels from the paladin KotC enhancements as well as a bonus of +6 to turning dice.

55 is good enough to insta-skill the skeletons in EE Madstone crater - which is plenty impressive. If someone can somehow reach higher than my numbers above, I would like to know!

Karatemack, you may want to update your original post. Better yet, make it a new guide so this doesn't get buried.

[FranOhmsford]

55 is good enough to insta-skill the skeletons in EE Madstone crater - which is plenty impressive.

All four of them?

3 of 4?

2 of 4?

1 of 4?

[guardianx2009]

All four of them?

3 of 4?

2 of 4?

1 of 4?

One at a time, obviously. Given it is EE, I wouldn't expect to EASY Button clear an entire room in one shot.

Turns have like a 1 second cooldown, so technically I'm only limited by numbers of turns per rest. So I guess you can say 4 of 4 because unlike DC's, they are guaranteed dead so as long as I have the turns.

[FranOhmsford]

One at a time, obviously. Given it is EE, I wouldn't expect to EASY Button clear an entire room in one shot.

Turns have like a 1 second cooldown, so technically I'm only limited by numbers of turns per rest. So I guess you can say 4 of 4 because unlike DC's, they are guaranteed dead so as long as I have the turns.

4 Skeletons!

4 NOT 14! FOUR!

There may only be 4 giant skeletons in that room but that's hardly the same thing!

If you used Implosion on them would you be happy if just one went down?

And 1 second cooldown? There's some sort of protection from TU that appears on Undead that have been subjected to it and saved you realise!


TU is an AoE ability NOT Single Target! It only working on one mob out of 4 is clearly not good enough!


But if it works on one that means it's not AS bad as some make out and that the Devs can fix it with just better gear and enhancements - No Need to completely Revamp it!

[guardianx2009]

4 Skeletons!

4 NOT 14! FOUR!

There may only be 4 giant skeletons in that room but that's hardly the same thing!

If you used Implosion on them would you be happy if just one went down?

If implosion had the same cooldown as TU, I absolutely would be happy.

And 1 second cooldown? There's some sort of protection from TU that appears on Undead that have been subjected to it and saved you realise!

No there isn't some sort of 'protection from TU'. There is a bug however, where immediately spamming one turn after another, the subsequent turns do nothing. This can be worked-around by spacing out your turns.

TU is an AoE ability NOT Single Target! It only working on one mob out of 4 is clearly not good enough!

TU is not quite AOE. I expect to turn 4 or more in heroics. But EE? Considering any half decent cleric is going to have 20-30 turns, I say being able to turn 1 or 2 is fair.

But if it works on one that means it's not AS bad as some make out and that the Devs can fix it with just better gear and enhancements - No Need to completely Revamp it!

Only reason I can reach high enough HD is with 3 Past Lives and hard-to-acquire gear. But yes, Devs absolutely can fix it with more accessible gear and enhancement instead of gutting and replacing it with another DPS tool.

[PermaBanned]

I did some testing, indeed Mighty Turning is granting a bonus +1 turn level, but this is only AFTER I reincarnated and acquired the new Follower of Aureon class feat. So it may be a combination of Follower of Aureon/Aureon's Instruction + Might Turning.

My 20 level cleric nearly every turning gear/PL available (sans imp. turning feat). My max turn level is 55:

                   Turn Level  Max HD
Eternal Faith		2	2
Insightful Faith	2	2	
TOD RS Set		3	0
Imp Turning(E)		3	0
Imp Turning(F)		0	0
Past Life: Cleric	6	0
Seek Eternal Rest	4	0
Aureon's Instruction	2	4
Mighty Turning          1       0
=====================================
Total                  23       8

Summary
  Cleric Level	    20
  Turn Level        23
  Max HD             8
  Check Bonus        4
  ====================
Total Turn Level    55
  


                     Max Turn Level
Pure Cleric              55 (56*)
Morning Lord Cleric      55 (56*)
2 Pally / 18 Cleric      56 (57*)
(* Max Turn Level if you take Imp. Turning Feat)

The above assumes the only difference with Morninglord is Bane of Restless, and it provides the same turning level bonus as Aureon's Instruction and Faltout's Pally observations are accurate:




55 is good enough to insta-skill the skeletons in EE Madstone crater - which is plenty impressive. If someone can somehow reach higher than my numbers above, I would like to know!

I'm curious: you say that's your "level 20 Cleric" but I notice its using at least a level 24 item (Insightful Faith). So what Character level is this level 20 Cleric? Also, how does that same Cleric do in quests more recent than U17/base level 24 (27 on EE) content? Like, how does it's Turning perform in EE Necro? How does it do beyond that?

[guardianx2009]

I'm curious: you say that's your "level 20 Cleric" but I notice its using at least a level 24 item (Insightful Faith). So what Character level is this level 20 Cleric? Also, how does that same Cleric do in quests more recent than U17/base level 24 (27 on EE) content? Like, how does it's Turning perform in EE Necro? How does it do beyond that?

Good point. I just etr'ed so did all my testing as a level 20 cleric. Just by the numbers from my tests, I'm able to deduce what my turn level would be at 24, with insightful faith. And from there, deduce what cr mobs I can turn.

If you want to know how you'll fair in EE necro, just go in and inspect their CR. If they are over 55 they are nigh unturnable.

It's worth repeating, I'm in no way advocating turning is fine as is. I'm just illustrating what the max is and how (hard) it is to reach. Suggestions for improvement:

-more sources of turning gear
-add turn level per ed level
-change mighty turning from instakill to double turn level instead. (this should yield same result, except lesser clerics will stun instead of complete fail.)

[PermaBanned]

Good point. I just etr'ed so did all my testing as a level 20 cleric. Just by the numbers from my tests, I'm able to deduce what my turn level would be at 24, with insightful faith. And from there, deduce what cr mobs I can turn.

If you want to know how you'll fair in EE necro, just go in and inspect their CR. If they are over 55 they are nigh unturnable.

It's worth repeating, I'm in no way advocating turning is fine as is. I'm just illustrating what the max is and how (hard) it is to reach. Suggestions for improvement:

-more sources of turning gear
-add turn level per ed level
-change mighty turning from instakill to double turn level instead. (this should yield same result, except lesser clerics will stun instead of complete fail.)

Ah, alrighty. I had the impression you were speaking from experience, and just using the table to illustrate. Personally, I've found actual play results often differ from how it works out on paper. As to your opinion on the matter (that it's not actually fine), I guess I misunderstood the conotation of:

55 is good enough to insta-skill the skeletons in EE Madstone crater - which is plenty impressive.

Carry on

[Silverleafeon]

This is where some confusion comes in with the current system. According to the Wiki it is your "Turning Value" plus the bonus based on the D20 roll and your Charisma modifier (IE: Turn Undead Check Bonus). My understanding then, is that the current formula for Turning Value is: Cleric Level + Turn Level Bonus + MaxHD Bonus and that your Turn Undead Check Bonus will be added to this to determine your Total Turning Value. Your Total Turning Value must be greater than the Hit Dice of an Undead Mob to successfully "turn" it at all and must be DOUBLE the Hit Dice of an Undead Mob in order to instantly destroy it. (With Mighty Turning if the Total Turning Value is greater than or equal to the Hit Dice of the mob then it is destroyed.)

You are adding your "Turning Damage Bonuses" (labeled MaxHD Bonus by you) into your Turning Value" this is incorrect per 3.5 D&D rules.
Please correct your math, or verify in game that Turning Undead is actually affect by this bug.
Thank you.