18 Warlock 2 rogue advice

[Jaysun]

Hello everyone. Very new to warlock but I am going to make one for a mass Racial TR binge (just going 1-20). My wife plays a pure warlock and I normally play a repeater 18 rogue/2 arty but I feel like a trap money hirling compared to her (don't get me wrong I do great DPS but its night and day). Anyhow, the 18/2 is not in question. I want evasion and do not want to splash anything extra. Race doesn't matter because I will be changing them a lot.

What I would like help with is knowing what feats to take and what level should I take my second rogue level at to best maximize skills.

For feats I would like Insightful reflexes and I have the one that changes Will to be based off Cha. I also took arcane intuition *the one that gives +1 dc to all casting and free magic missile* Besides that what should I take?

I put skill points into DD, Search, Spellcraft, and UMD. (On rogue level I put in in everything else. Thats about all the pionts I have room for at this level. I would like to use the second level of rogue to play a lot of catch up and the force the others in as Tomes kicked in. Trying to find a way to put some points into perform also but not sure I can.

I am Fey
We play reaper 1 pretty much straight through to 20.
I have +7 tome
I am currently 1 rogue 2 warlock (just rolled last night).

Thanks. Looking to maximize for 1-20.

But on a side note...how possible is this build from 21-30? I like how beast my 18/2 rogue in with great crossbow at 30...but If I enjoy playing this more ...how viable would it be?

[slarden]

You need to decide if you want to max dps, defenses or trapping skills and build accordingly.

I would take warlock at 1 to take maximize then 2 rogue levels then warlock to 20.

I would probably go 18 cha 16 int 16 con (varies a bit depending on race) and leave 8 for dex, str and wis. You can get good trapping skills and reflex save with gear and tomes. If you go more defensively you would max and level up con but those evasion mobs will be an absolute pain to deal with a fey build so in future lifes go goo with a con build if you want higher defenses. I don't see maxing int as ever being the best option unless you can't get the trapping skills and reflex save needed which most likely would be a gear-related problem.

For feats it will depend which trees you want. Maximize and Empower are great for the quick Eld Burst SLA so I usually take those first and then also use cone as my main shape instead of aura. On a non-human build you will have 7 feats.

I would probably take insightful reflexes at 1, maximize at 3, empower at 6, Enlarge at 9, Quicken at 12, Force of Personality at 15 (for a 1-20 build), Mental Toughness at 18 for a 1-20 build or <spell school>focus if you plan to level to 30. Some of the feats could moved around but it sounds like trapping is a priority and taking empower at 6 only impacts you for one level (75 less spellpower at level 5 for eld burst). I would tend to spend 12 AP on cone first and then 13 AP for the Eld Burst, but it's personal preference really. So in your case you are kind of setup at level 6 for dps and trapping, but you are making some trade offs before that so will be lagging behind a bit on dps.

[goldgolem]

Does Maximise only work on eld burst - so no need to take it if you dont go burst? I am not seeing any effect on chain. Super confused atm!

[slarden]

What does maximise work on at 1?

You take maximize at 1 and empower at 3 so you can use both on the eld burst sla starting at level 3. In the case of the OP with 2 rogue levels it's not needed right away which is why I recommended insightful reflexes first instead.

[Jaysun]

You need to decide if you want to max dps, defenses or trapping skills and build accordingly.

I would take warlock at 1 to take maximize then 2 rogue levels then warlock to 20.

I would probably go 18 cha 16 int 16 con (varies a bit depending on race) and leave 8 for dex, str and wis. You can get good trapping skills and reflex save with gear and tomes. If you go more defensively you would max and level up con but those evasion mobs will be an absolute pain to deal with a fey build so in future lifes go goo with a con build if you want higher defenses. I don't see maxing int as ever being the best option unless you can't get the trapping skills and reflex save needed which most likely would be a gear-related problem.

For feats it will depend which trees you want. Maximize and Empower are great for the quick Eld Burst SLA so I usually take those first and then also use cone as my main shape instead of aura. On a non-human build you will have 7 feats.

I would probably take insightful reflexes at 1, maximize at 3, empower at 6, Enlarge at 9, Quicken at 12, Force of Personality at 15 (for a 1-20 build), Mental Toughness at 18 for a 1-20 build or <spell school>focus if you plan to level to 30. Some of the feats could moved around but it sounds like trapping is a priority and taking empower at 6 only impacts you for one level (75 less spellpower at level 5 for eld burst). I would tend to spend 12 AP on cone first and then 13 AP for the Eld Burst, but it's personal preference really. So in your case you are kind of setup at level 6 for dps and trapping, but you are making some trade offs before that so will be lagging behind a bit on dps.

So I group with my wife and shes pure warlock. Between us both we are more then enough dps so my focus would be on traps/defense but so far I feel I am doing pretty decent dps compared to her. I don't understand why you would take warlock over rogue at level 1? That is a TON of skill points that I am missing out on. Also would rather take the second level of rogue later so that I can use the rogue points to catch up skills. Doing them back to back negates this advantage. I would gain evasion later but the first 7-10 levels are pretty straight foward on traps. They start getting tricky around level 10 where evasion is more required. Am I missing something with going that route? I also don't think I will take quicken. I have't tested Eld Burst but I have seen it, it does a lot of damage but I have the eld shape chain ability and feel like that covers a bit more area and doesnt limit me to being in melee range (will get it but not at the start. I dont think I need mental toughness, I have a lot of mana currently from past lives. I am on board with everything else right now. What else could I grab besides quicken and MT? Quicken I feel is a must for epic levels but heroic doesnt really feel the need.

[goldgolem]

You take maximize at 1 and empower at 3 so you can use both on the eld burst sla starting at level 3. In the case of the OP with 2 rogue levels it's not needed right away which is why I recommended insightful reflexes first instead.

Just to be super clear because I am slow - so if you dont use the Eldricth Burst SLA in ES tree, you dont need Max, Empower until you hit say, tentacles at lvl 10?

[slarden]

Just to be super clear because I am slow - so if you dont use the Eldricth Burst SLA in ES tree, you dont need Max, Empower until you hit say, tentacles at lvl 10?

Maximize and empower also work on consume, stricken and burning blood slas which are all tier 3 or lower. Then of course there are the better tier 5 slas.

On a pure warlock I would always grab maximize and empower first. With the 2 rouge splash waiting until 3 and 6 is fine to get a workable evasion first, but you are taking a dps hit. Having an AOE with a 225 spellpower boost from maximize and empower is very powerful at level 3 even with the 5 second cooldown.

If you don't want to take any slas you can obviously spec the warlock any way you wish.

[slarden]

So I group with my wife and shes pure warlock. Between us both we are more then enough dps so my focus would be on traps/defense but so far I feel I am doing pretty decent dps compared to her. I don't understand why you would take warlock over rogue at level 1? That is a TON of skill points that I am missing out on. Also would rather take the second level of rogue later so that I can use the rogue points to catch up skills. Doing them back to back negates this advantage. I would gain evasion later but the first 7-10 levels are pretty straight foward on traps. They start getting tricky around level 10 where evasion is more required. Am I missing something with going that route? I also don't think I will take quicken. I have't tested Eld Burst but I have seen it, it does a lot of damage but I have the eld shape chain ability and feel like that covers a bit more area and doesnt limit me to being in melee range (will get it but not at the start. I dont think I need mental toughness, I have a lot of mana currently from past lives. I am on board with everything else right now. What else could I grab besides quicken and MT? Quicken I feel is a must for epic levels but heroic doesnt really feel the need.

yes you are right taking rogue 1st makes sense for the skill point. The rest is mainly personal preference so all those choices are good as they work with your play style.

[C-Dog]

(A bit longer than planned - the 1st half is general response, then 2nd half turns into a "How to Maximize Skill Points" - if TL, then just DR, np.)

The only(?) reason to take Warlock at 1st is to get a Metamagic Feat (since Rogues have no magic, no access to those). Well, or... to be a friggin Warlock for Level 1 - BAM!

But if you can gimp Level 1 with a Rogue, and you are good with Insightful Reflexes, Force of Personality or some other no-pre-req Feat, then def take Rogue @ 1 for the skill points and accept that your feats may not come in optimal order for Warlock, but will all be the same by Level 9 or 12, np.


Maximizing skill points then is a balancing act, trading off delaying maxed skills at every (early) level for overall max return later. On one hand, you are going to ignore putting skill points into (some) trapping skills for X levels, and then "play catch up" when you can maximize those few skills all at once with Rogue skill points - often around Level 7-8 or so. This also is affected by what non-Warlock Rogue skills you are going to maximize - Search and Disable Device are core, but less critical are Spot and Open Lock (and in this case UMD is a Warlock skill, so np there). Fewer maximized skills means Rogue levels can be delayed more without losing the maximizing effect, because there are fewer skills demanding those points.

The other part of the balancing act is between Warlock and Rogue abilities at any given Character Level. You want Evasion and Trapping, but you also want certain Warlock powers/spells asap, so you don't want to delay those any more than necessary. You're going to be gimping trapping until you get that 2nd Rogue Level, so this can be a tough one. (Warlocks get their 1st Level 3 spell @ Lvl 7, so for the example below let's say that's the cutpoint that you pick (and can live without Evasion and "full" trapping 'til after that!*), but ymmv!)

o http://ddowiki.com/page/Warlock#Advancement_table

(* Evasion is handy as soon as Lightning Bolts start flying around, which happens as early as the Harbor 2 quests on Elite, BUT it also depends on how good your Reflex ST is. Without a reliable ST, it's less chance to make a big diff, so not as important. Again, Level 7-10 is not terribly late.)

And, of course, how many Skill Points you have, and how many "spare" (after non-Rogue class skills are maxed), makes a big difference too. Warlocks want(?) Spellcraft and UMD, but any others? Some builds recommend Concentration, some Heal. If Fey Pact, toss Perform in there, etc. If you have a 36 point character, you could go with more Int. Too variable to predict.

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If you want to figure it out yourself (recommended), here's what I'd suggest:

First, grab the Character Builder Lite - too handy NOT to have when doing any character planning.

Don't worry too much about the details - drop some Stats in (max Cha, try 14 Int first), start with Rogue 1 & 9.*

(* If you're aiming for Warlock 7 asap. Rogue 1 + 7 Levels of Warlock = 8, so Rog 2 next @ 9. But remember the whole "balancing act" thing - you might decide a couple sooner/later.)
(** Or whatever - if you want to end up with Jump 8 and Open Lock 12, then those are your targets, etc.)

Start with ONLY your core skills, the ones that you NEED at 23 (or whatever target #) - just those. Start with 4 pts in Rogue 1 (whether that gives 4 or 2 ranks), and spend across to Level 20, +1 rank (1 or 2 pts) at each level, 23 ranks at the end. For this build, Warlock (Human or Drow) has only 5 skill pts/level, so with cross-class points to spend that's 2 for Search, 2 for Disable Device, and probably(?) 1 Warlock skill (UMD?).

At this point, Rogue 9 will have a lot of left-over points (8). Lower earlier Warlock points in Search/DD, and spend those 8 spare Rogue points to bring those skills back up to max for Level 9.

Now Spend those newly-freed Warlock points where you want in Levels 2-8. If you want to spend them in UMD, you can free up lvl 1 Rogue points to go into something else to start.

Once you have a feel for how many points you have, this is where you spend them on other skills - at Level 1, or during Warlock advancement.

You go back and forth, think about things, and maybe shift Rog around (and/or maybe raise/lower Int?) until you're happy with the overall end result, or you accept that you can't get it any better. Done.

(Note - Don't "waste" points where they won't matter if not maxed. With some skills, like Jump, Haggle or Swim, every little bit helps. But skills like Bluff, Concentration or Spot, if you can't reach the DC for the level of quest/challenge, you simply get zero for those points invested. 3 points in Balance will make you stand up a little faster, but 4 points in Intimidate will be a wasted button-push before your level hits double-digits.)

[Dielzen]

I did Drow 16con/20int (that's all your build points), Rogue at levels 2&15

I only have a +3 Int tome on that character, but I ended up with 23 Concentration, Disable, Search, Spellcraft; 22 UMD; 20 Spot.
If you have a better tome you can take the Rogue level later and max out all of the skills.

Keep in mind, tho, that this character has all the defensive ePL and is wearing Medium Armor, so the lack of evasion isn't a real issue.

[stethnorun]

Trying to build this myself. Sooo skillpoint starved. I'm going to miss spot. Sigh