warlocks are imbalanced

[Lallajulia]

i clearly imagine this was discussed already. but now it is my time. watched game, classes, known players, good(some stellar players on gland) and not so good and class as a whole is even in worse situation as it was before.
from my prespective of view, i can not even recall any game where one class would be so overpowered.
why? everyone knows why, players by taking powers, devs hiding eyes from problem.

to my sense, problem is worse than it was when we had similar thing with monks.

rationally, i have zero good choices if i want tr races. only best choice is variation of warlock.

i told before what you need to do, to balace it.

1. make all and every lock power be dependant of spell points. and. every and any walrock power under all caster weaknesess, spell level, cost, etc.
2. no hyper hp. it may be still viable ability, but it have to have downsides. my suggestion is negative levels. what would affect spell ability. every and each time warlock takes hitpoints from nowhere, it loses its sp, it loses level.
3. reduce so op warlock tree aoe hit. reduce it seriously in terms of cooldown AND spell power + spell level. make monsters to able save from it heavily. make it as spell as it should be.

there is zero excuses for warlocks be as it is. situation what we have now is worst class disbalance i can remember, save monkshuri/muri some years ago.

ty for time reading. not going into heavy discussions, not want, do not have time for this. we all love our game, i wish possibilities. choices. this is major flaw is see so far.

[Six_Gun]

You obviously play only Heroic content. Warlocks are fine as is when Epic level play is considered.

No class should be balanced with Heroic levels as the baseline.

[Memnir]

[Talon_Moonshadow]

You obviously play only Heroic content. Warlocks are fine as is when Epic level play is considered.

No class should be balanced with Heroic levels as the baseline.

Eberron, Forgotten Realms, we also have Grewhawk.

Yet you have apparently found another fantasy world in DDO.......

[jalont]

You obviously play only Heroic content. Warlocks are fine as is when Epic level play is considered.

No class should be balanced with Heroic levels as the baseline.

I always wonder if people who say this are just attempting to keep their easy button from getting nerfed or if they truly have no understanding of DDO at all. If I had enough disposable income, my DDO endgame would be transferring from server to server every time I read this post and grouping with the person that wrote it to ask why my warlock build is so much better than whatever it is they think is on par with it.

[Vish]

Cowboys riding warlocks is all I see

High hp, high Umd and free dps
Too op for heroic

I suggest 1sp per blast
And maybe d4 hp
Umd is their saving grace
Wiz and sorc don't even get Umd
No reason not to play anything else
In heroic

[Sweyn]

BLUF: There are too many people playing Warlocks

In an ideal world, every class would be balanced and roughly the same number of each class would be online at any time. At this current moment on Khyber the number of each class logged on is:

Artificer: 10 (4.26%)
Barbarian: 10 (4.26%)
Bard: 9 (3.83%)
Cleric 15 (6.38%)
Druid: 8 (3.40%)
Favored Soul: 2 (0.85%)
Fighter: 13 (5.53%)
Monk: 19 (8.09%)
Paladin: 20 (8.51%)
Ranger: 22 (9.36%)
Rogue: 32 (13.6%)
Sorcerer: 5 (2.13%)
Warlock: 49 (20.9%)
Wizard: 21 (8.94%)
-----------------------
Total: 235 (100%)

As you can see the warlock has an un-proportional player base when comparing it to the other classes. I am not going to speculate whether that is because they are OP or because they are simply more fun; however, the point I am trying to make is that DDO is heavily weighted towards Warlock while other classes barely get played at all. There are 14 total classes (so if you do the math in an "ideal world" roughly 7.14% of the people should be playing any particular class at any particular time) yet one out of every five people play a Warlock at any given time. In other words, there are 3x as many people playing Warlocks as there should be. This is a problem.

I'm not calling for a nerf, I'm calling for a balancing of classes (whether it comes from how fun they are to play or how powerful they are) to entice groups to have more diversity. I'm tired of running a raid with 7 Warlocks or running Reaper quests with 4 Warlocks. Quite frankly it's ridiculous.






And yes.... I have nothing better to do this Saturday morning.

[Six_Gun]

BLUF: There are too many people playing Warlocks

In an ideal world, every class would be balanced and roughly the same number of each class would be online at any time. At this current moment on Khyber the number of each class logged on is:

Artificer: 10 (4.26%)
Barbarian: 10 (4.26%)
Bard: 9 (3.83%)
Cleric 15 (6.38%)
Druid: 8 (3.40%)
Favored Soul: 2 (0.85%)
Fighter: 13 (5.53%)
Monk: 19 (8.09%)
Paladin: 20 (8.51%)
Ranger: 22 (9.36%)
Rogue: 32 (13.6%)
Sorcerer: 5 (2.13%)
Warlock: 49 (20.9%)
Wizard: 21 (8.94%)
-----------------------
Total: 235 (100%)

As you can see the warlock has an un-proportional player base when comparing it to the other classes. I am not going to speculate whether that is because they are OP or because they are simply more fun; however, the point I am trying to make is that DDO is heavily weighted towards Warlock while other classes barely get played at all. There are 14 total classes (so if you do the math in an "ideal world" roughly 7.14% of the people should be playing any particular class at any particular time) yet two out of every 5 people play a Warlock at any given time. In other words, there are 3x as many people playing Warlocks as there should be. This is a problem.

I'm not calling for a nerf, I'm calling for a balancing of classes (whether it comes from how fun they are to play or how powerful they are) to entice groups to have more diversity. I'm tired of running a raid with 7 Warlocks or running Reaper quests with 4 Warlocks. Quite frankly it's ridiculous.






And yes.... I have nothing better to do this Saturday morning.

Try counting just those players at level 30.

[Sweyn]

Try counting just those players at level 30.

There is no reason to just count those at level 30. I made a claim that too many people are playing warlocks and provided evidence to support it. Level demographics are not important.

[Hcinrich_Hain]

Taking things away is generally a rather bad approach.
Better yet improve the weaker classes.

This game has next to no PVP so I happily accept a strong
Warlock taking the lead.
I'd be even happier though if we could see eye to eye.

[Qhualor]

rogue is the most played class right now. warlock usually comes in the top 3 or 4. that's an unofficial observation of years of studying the lfm watching one class climbing the top of the heap pushing off another class and watching it happen with pretty much every class over and over again.

new players playing warlocks? sure, but certainly not designed for them or designed to bypass 3 years of experience and feel like they have "caught up" to a vet lol. you still need to know how to build a good character, know the quests and know how to play. ask yourself, "how long did it take for you to learn how to play your first successful character? how many different attempts did it take before you settled on a build you really liked? how did you know when you first logged into the game that warlock was the new player friendly class to play that is also deemed OP by the forums?" most warlocks I come across are vets or players that have been playing for at least a year. I cant remember the last time I saw a warlock with no wings around their name.

earlier today I ran with a group doing an at level EE ES1 chain with a warlock in the group. he had the second highest kill count, but the highest deaths in every quest. my Tempest ranger had the highest kill counts and no deaths. kill counts dont mean squat, especially since my ranger can kill steal with Merciful Strike. deaths however do mean something. obviously some power with this guys warlock, but doesn't know how to manage agro and self healing. this is the kind of thing I see a lot with warlocks. they can have a lot of kills, but a lot of deaths or they can have abysmal damage output and provide very little to the group, but they got the warlock icon at least. the point, you still need to know how to build and play.

[Cantor]

Taking things away is generally a rather bad approach.
Better yet improve the weaker classes.

This kind of mentality among players (I feel the pain when something is taken away too) is why the game is trivial on elite. You don't always buff, sometimes nerfs are needed.

[dragons1ayer74]

BLUF: There are too many people playing Warlocks

In an ideal world, every class would be balanced and roughly the same number of each class would be online at any time. At this current moment on Khyber the number of each class logged on is:

Artificer: 10 (4.26%)
Barbarian: 10 (4.26%)
Bard: 9 (3.83%)
Cleric 15 (6.38%)
Druid: 8 (3.40%)
Favored Soul: 2 (0.85%)
Fighter: 13 (5.53%)
Monk: 19 (8.09%)
Paladin: 20 (8.51%)
Ranger: 22 (9.36%)
Rogue: 32 (13.6%)
Sorcerer: 5 (2.13%)
Warlock: 49 (20.9%)
Wizard: 21 (8.94%)
-----------------------
Total: 235 (100%)

As you can see the warlock has an un-proportional player base when comparing it to the other classes. I am not going to speculate whether that is because they are OP or because they are simply more fun; however, the point I am trying to make is that DDO is heavily weighted towards Warlock while other classes barely get played at all. There are 14 total classes (so if you do the math in an "ideal world" roughly 7.14% of the people should be playing any particular class at any particular time) yet one out of every five people play a Warlock at any given time. In other words, there are 3x as many people playing Warlocks as there should be. This is a problem.

I'm not calling for a nerf, I'm calling for a balancing of classes (whether it comes from how fun they are to play or how powerful they are) to entice groups to have more diversity. I'm tired of running a raid with 7 Warlocks or running Reaper quests with 4 Warlocks. Quite frankly it's ridiculous.






And yes.... I have nothing better to do this Saturday morning.

+1 Cool for your research and I would say it is feels accurate with my play experience.

Back before the very new enhancement lines came in and Favored Soul was the new shiny thing people complained how OP they where and now you see this data and how little they are played. Heck they even nerfed at least one amaranth quests because Favored Souls could do the quests so much easier than 85% of the other classes/players combo.

3 Years ago their was no heroic quest my Favored Soul could not complete that my warlock these days couldn't complete. That said my Favored Soul took a bit longer to complete some quests and needed to use some rest shrine and drink the odd manna potion.

Some observations and opinions:
1. Racial and Reaper Grinds are enticing people to blow through heroic content as fast as possible in order to get then next power levels
2. For most players this equal warlocks
3. There are a lot of very poor warlock builds for every good one I see about three bad
4. There are a lot of player that are still new to the game yet have past or mutipast lives
5. Reaper like BB was but much worse is hurting grouping options
6. I have started to see LFM groups that won't allow Warlock (the funniest/strangest are those that are led by a Warlock)
7. The player skill and power discrepancies in PUGs is crazy

[phillymiket]

Warlocks are kind of the best of all worlds, in some ways.
You can hit from a distance, you got spells, you got unlimited blasting, you can be pretty tough if you want.
It's no wonder they are popular.
Popularity doesn't necessarily equal over-powered.
IMO the class synergizes with how Heroic content is these days very well.
I'm personally using a Warlock ATM to run Heroic lives but if wanted to run capped content I'd probably play something else.
Is that OP? idk.
Warlocks certainly spin the hamster wheel fast w/o much effort.
If my mouse and keyboard were broken and I only had one button but still needed to level fast, I'd choose Warlock.
But once you step off the hamster wheel the math changes so who's to say where the power lies.
I say leave them as they are.

[Six_Gun]

I always wonder if people who say this are just attempting to keep their easy button from getting nerfed or if they truly have no understanding of DDO at all. If I had enough disposable income, my DDO endgame would be transferring from server to server every time I read this post and grouping with the person that wrote it to ask why my warlock build is so much better than whatever it is they think is on par with it.

My DC caster would make you tuck tail and scurry back to your little bubble. I enjoy making kill count obsessed Warlocks cry.

[Sanader]

You obviously play only Heroic content. Warlocks are fine as is when Epic level play is considered.
No class should be balanced with Heroic levels as the baseline.

What? Really? Should we only just compare all classes at lvl 30? Because you know...........DDO is alll about at playing on lvl 30. There is no leveling proces in DDO. Leveling is not a huge part of DDO. At all.

So basicly, this is another tread where everyone agrees that warlocks are OP in heroics and OK-ish in epics?
Yay! Another same conclusion as in all other threads in last 2 years.
What is done about them being OP in heroics?
Nothing.

Those few nerfs they had affected BOTH heroics and epics. Warlocks need to get nerfed in heroics not epics.

[Whitering]

What? Really? Should we only just compare all classes at lvl 30? Because you know...........DDO is alll about at playing on lvl 30. There is no leveling proces in DDO. Leveling is not a huge part of DDO. At all.

So basicly, this is another tread where everyone agrees that warlocks are OP in heroics and OK-ish in epics?
Yay! Another same conclusion as in all other threads in last 2 years.
What is done about them being OP in heroics?
Nothing.

Those few nerfs they had affected BOTH heroics and epics. Warlocks need to get nerfed in heroics not epics.

The reason you do not judge based on heroic normal to elite, reaper is its own beast, is because, and I know this from experience, there are classes that veritably fly through heroics and then hit a huge wall at say, level 21. I was at level 21 for, I don't know, 3 years? Because I now hated my character, I used a free LR20 given during some time in the past to remake my character to my favourite character I've yet played, yes, more than Warlock, Axel's Battle Cleric.

I still hope to end up a cleric, not necessarily a battle one, but like, when I play NWN or BGT (Baldur's Gate Trilogy (mod)), I tend to play a cleric, because at high level they are freaking wonderful, not so in DDO, that might change with the pass. Yes, Warlocks can blaze through heroic, take that as sop to those of us left behind on the tr train that keeps us from having to repeater sound as we previously had to do 6 arti/6 rogue/8 class or something.

In Epic, you do see a fair class balance (very few rogues), with locks having a slight edge, but maybe that's because they are so easy to play in heroic. Quit nerfing things, who cares? This is not a competitive game.

[Sanader]

Quit nerfing things, who cares? This is not a competitive game.

Gotta love that argument. It that pops in every thread regarding any class balance. I say to you than: Quit buffing things, who cares? This is not a competitive game.
I hear there is a cleric pass coming soon, maybe we should start writing on forums to stop buffing classes? Why are trees getting updated anyways. I heard druid one will come to. Who cares. This is not competitive game. Leave people that play druid (all 0,0003% of them) to play druids as they are. Leave 30% people playing warlock in heroics alone.

And as I mentioned again, I'm talking about nerfing warlocks in heroics not epics. What does a wall at lvl 21 have to do with my reply? It's the epic level.

P.S. talking from experiance (50+ lives) all classes hit a wall in epics. Actually playing EEs solo on a warlock at lvl 21 was the easiest while being in shiradi compared to any other class i played.

[Whitering]

Gotta love that argument. It that pops in every thread regarding any class balance. I say to you than: Quit buffing things, who cares? This is not a competitive game.
I hear there is a cleric pass coming soon, maybe we should start writing on forums to stop buffing classes? Why are trees getting updated anyways. I heard druid one will come to. Who cares. This is not competitive game. Leave people that play druid (all 0,0003% of them) to play druids as they are. Leave 30% people playing warlock in heroics alone.

And as I mentioned again, I'm talking about nerfing warlocks in heroics not epics. What does a wall at lvl 21 have to do with my reply? It's the epic level.

P.S. talking from experiance (50+ lives) all classes hit a wall in epics. Actually playing EEs solo on a warlock at lvl 21 was the easiest while being in shiradi compared to any other class i played.

Not all classes hit walls in Epics, maybe you played crappy toons, here are the toons I've played recently that just rolled right through epic

1) Barbarian
2) Battle Cleric
3) Druid, caster and xploit versions
4) working half heartedly on the wraith fighter build from the fighter forums, it's working pretty well.

Those are just the classes I've played lately, but others I've played flew through heroic (ranger, arti, etc), and I hit a wall at 21. The one that made me leave the game was a clonk lol

It's not about buffing or nerfing, it's about making the game fun to play, yet they are more concerned about balance than fun.

[silinteresting]

i have zero good choices if i want tr races.

now this is funny, thankyou for the laugh over my morning coffee.

your friend sil