Fix Fear Reapers

[Niminae]

Thanks for pointing out my choices, which were kinda obvious. I can either choose to not run quests, or to have a non-enjoyable exprience. I don't think either of those are great choices.

Great or not great, they are still choices.

If you choose to run those quests on reaper when you know that this can happen, that is your choice. Complaining about it after the fact when you went into it knowing the risks isn't really going to accomplish much. IMO, YMMV.

This isn't anyone asking you to accept the bugs, this is me telling you that if you know that these bugs exist and yet still choose to subject yourself to the chance that they will occur that my sympathy is less than it would be otherwise.

Would it be great if the devs spent many hours coding around fringe cases so that no reapers could spawn behind a locked door/in a cage/under the ground/whatever? Sure, that would be fantastic!

Will this ever happen? You know the answer to that already, don't you?

And since I know that you know the answer, I have to ask, what is the point of this thread? Because "Fix Fear Reapers" is never going to happen, not in the way that you are asking for where they remain essentially the same but many hours are spent coding against the fringe cases you have outlined. And you knew that before you opened this thread.

[Wizza]

Great or not great, they are still choices.

If you choose to run those quests on reaper when you know that this can happen, that is your choice. Complaining about it after the fact when you went into it knowing the risks isn't really going to accomplish much. IMO, YMMV.

This isn't anyone asking you to accept the bugs, this is me telling you that if you know that these bugs exist and yet still choose to subject yourself to the chance that they will occur that my sympathy is less than it would be otherwise.

Would it be great if the devs spent many hours coding around fringe cases so that no reapers could spawn behind a locked door/in a cage/under the ground/whatever? Sure, that would be fantastic!

Will this ever happen? You know the answer to that already, don't you?

And since I know that you know the answer, I have to ask, what is the point of this thread? Because "Fix Fear Reapers" is never going to happen, not in the way that you are asking for where they remain essentially the same but many hours are spent coding against the fringe cases you have outlined. And you knew that before you opened this thread.

My choices for running Reapers in Epics are already very limited. You are telling me to just say "ok, won't do those quests". Well, if I keep doing that, I simply won't be able to play soon.

[Severlin]

We have discussed reducing the perception radius of Fear Reapers. If creatures near them detect a player, however, they will as a result become active.

It looks like the code was changed (back in the day) to allow creatures to perceive through created objects (like doors) because otherwise barrels and similar items could mess with a creature's ability to perceive players. We are looking into solutions, and what we want to do about this. (One solution is to just redesign Fear Reapers either in small ways like always teleporting to an offending player to big ways like a complete redesign.)

Sev~

[fangblackhawk]

1 lowering radius still leaves quests like chain of flames F.U.B.A.R. as per your point

2 teleporting fear reapers i envision every time i see it mentioned in this thread 10-12 reapers swarming a still buffing party aggroing there friends and causing red alert as the party wipes. (little over board maybe, but i said i envision lol)

(3 redesighning cthulhu sounds like we could be in for well cthulhu)

[Niminae]

Listen to the playerbase. Fix the problems.

The problem that SSG has, which we the players share, is that "Fix the problems" is not by a long shot the only thing the players are asking for. We also want new content.

And if it comes down to spending dev hours fixing fringe cases where Fear Reapers and only Fear Reapers out of all of the randomly spawning Reaper types is causing a very few quests to be either more challenging or impossible to complete, or the next update having more content, I know where my vote lies. And I think if placed before the player base as a whole that the "more content" vote would overwhelm the "fix a few quests where Fear Reapers might make us lose" vote.

I'm just guessing though, I could be wrong. It might be that the vote would be to fix fringe cases and release an update with less content than the last one, which only had 2 quests and one raid.

Content release has dropped significantly over the past few years. It really can't go much lower, it is already at the bare minimum.

[Eryhn]

It looks like the code was changed (back in the day) to allow creatures to perceive through created objects (like doors) because otherwise barrels and similar items could mess with a creature's ability to perceive players.

It would be nice if this could be fixed where it started to go bad, surely there got to be some way to make a mob differentiate walls and small objects without rewriting the whole physics engine and aggro mech and map design?

I'd rather have this root cause fixed in 3 months time then a teleport or reduce radius bandaid slapped on reapers in 3 weeks ...

[LrdSlvrhnd]

2. You don't know how to fix many cases of this (or it's too cost prohibitive) and it's just easier to declare it "WAI". Honestly that's just lazy. Another abandoned system.

The devs have already proven their willingness to do this specifically regarding Reaper Mode with their attitude towards over-level penalties. Originally they said it was based on the adjusted level of the quest, which tells me that 1) that's how it was intended, and 2) they had no problem with that... and then when it was pointed out (repeatedly) that it was based on the BASE level, they said "Oh, OK, that's how it should be, then," rather than fixing it.

We have discussed reducing the perception radius of Fear Reapers. If creatures near them detect a player, however, they will as a result become active.

The problem with this is like in Lesson in Deception - you can clear the area you're in, but still have red alert from mobs on the other side of the wall that you can't get to yet until you get to and through the sewers. If a fear reaper spawns there, you have no way to get to it. You have absolutely no recourse except to take the damage, getting worse and worse and worse, until either you can no longer heal through it and die, or the aggro wears off (and wasting a lot of resources either way). There are places like Bastion of Power where you have an "upstairs" that can aggro on you simply by jumping, that you can't get to until you find your way through the maze "downstairs". There are places like New Invasion where stuff can be aggroed through a wall that, because of the random maze, takes you a long while to get to... if you ever even do. "Oh, here's the dropdown point, but we have to keep going because of that fear reaper that aggoed on us 10 minutes ago on the other side of the map... we need to get back to the other side of the map but on the correct side of the wall, and then come back down to the dropdown..." (Granted, maybe not the greatest examples since the hard epic level lockout means that only L19s and below are getting in on reaper even though it's an L20 quest, but I imagine there are groups doing that.) There are places where stuff is aggroing through a door... that you won't be able to open because of the damage tick.

It doesn't matter how short the aggro range is, if other stuff around it is going to wake it up in conditions where you cannot get to it.

It looks like the code was changed (back in the day) to allow creatures to perceive through created objects (like doors) because otherwise barrels and similar items could mess with a creature's ability to perceive players. We are looking into solutions, and what we want to do about this. (One solution is to just redesign Fear Reapers either in small ways like always teleporting to an offending player to big ways like a complete redesign.)

Sev~

I think a total redesign is warranted. They need to not start up their DoT until they can actively be engaged. And if that requires recoding them in a way that makes barrels and similar items not see us, this is what needs to happen.

[Kulothar]

Since they have to sense you to agro, I have no problem with fixing them by having them teleport to the person. My issues with them have always been when I cannot find them in time and they are spamming dungeon wide. If teleporting is still a problem then I don't think there is a simple fix.

[Dark_Helmet]

We have discussed reducing the perception radius of Fear Reapers. If creatures near them detect a player, however, they will as a result become active.

It looks like the code was changed (back in the day) to allow creatures to perceive through created objects (like doors) because otherwise barrels and similar items could mess with a creature's ability to perceive players. We are looking into solutions, and what we want to do about this. (One solution is to just redesign Fear Reapers either in small ways like always teleporting to an offending player to big ways like a complete redesign.)

Sev~

Yep, this is exactly what I was trying to say. Mobs will active whole groups of mobs on the other side of doors / walls which affected dungeon alert in the same manner.

[Wizza]

We have discussed reducing the perception radius of Fear Reapers. If creatures near them detect a player, however, they will as a result become active.

This is exactly what already happens in game, and the reason why your new aggro mechanic is broken. Reapers spawn on top of the mobs, so this change would effectively do nothing.

It looks like the code was changed (back in the day) to allow creatures to perceive through created objects (like doors) because otherwise barrels and similar items could mess with a creature's ability to perceive players. We are looking into solutions, and what we want to do about this. (One solution is to just redesign Fear Reapers either in small ways like always teleporting to an offending player to big ways like a complete redesign.)

Sev~

That code change back in the day(?) is what causes most issues, together with the new aggro bubbles.

I approve of redesigns, either small or big one, as long as they stop being frustrating. Mind you, I like the challenge that they give, but the bugs make it a nightmare. So I would rather a redesign than keep this as it is.

[cpw_acc]

Would also like to point out that limiting the radius may not really work in cases like A Lesson in Deception (Wheloon).

There is a secret door in one location near the start that can only be opened once you have traversed the sewers to get around to the other side.

A fear reaper spawned right on the other side when I tried this on reaper, which meant the damage ticked away and was killing the party before we had any chance to get around to it (we were having to constantly heal each other just to stay up and knew we would never make it - had to quit in the end).

[Phoenicis]

We have discussed reducing the perception radius of Fear Reapers. If creatures near them detect a player, however, they will as a result become active.

8<SNIP>8

I dropped this in the reaper forum, this seems like a good spot to bring it up...

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ear-reaper-fix

[Niminae]

This is funny, if only because I had just posted that we have a choice between dev time spent on things like this reaper "root cause fixed in 3 months time" and content. I'd be the first to complain when the next update in three months time includes a reaper overhaul and no content, and I might be the first but I would not be the only one or the last.

And I suspect that the three persons I quoted below would be right there with me complaining about the lack of content.

I'd rather have this root cause fixed in 3 months time then a teleport or reduce radius bandaid slapped on reapers in 3 weeks ...

I think a total redesign is warranted.

I approve of redesigns, either small or big one, as long as they stop being frustrating. Mind you, I like the challenge that they give, but the bugs make it a nightmare. So I would rather a redesign than keep this as it is.

[Wizza]

This is funny, if only because I had just posted that we have a choice between dev time spent on things like this reaper "root cause fixed in 3 months time" and content. I'd be the first to complain when the next update in three months time includes a reaper overhaul and no content, and I might be the first but I would not be the only one or the last.

And I suspect that the three persons I quoted below would be right there with me complaining about the lack of content.

1) It's a big step from redesigning one Reaper to "a reaper overhaul"
2) Nothing says that they won't create new content with the fix to a broken mechanic. Have a quote or are you pulling it from the magic hat that you, and only you, have?
3) I love more and more the mind-reading in the future!!!!!! That takes some amazing skills.
4) We already know, 100%, that next update will be Stonelands quests or whatever they are called.

Thanks for your post!

[ZzpxpzZ]

(One solution is to just redesign Fear Reapers either in small ways like always teleporting to an offending player.)

Sev~

This.

Do this.

Some of the reapers already act in this manner, just make the Fear Reaper do so as well. It is very frustrating to encounter the fear reaper behind the locked door at the start of Sacred Helm, or on the ledges with the archers in Maraud the Mines when you aren't a ranged build.

I am a fan of Reaper as a whole - HUGE fan. But, the fear reapers as they currently are just aren't a plus. The damage takes so long to ramp up that if you CAN address them, they just aren't a significant concern, while if you CANT address them they are instant GG tough luck chap game enders that just ruin the fun.

IMHO, give them a noticable audio cue, make them teleport to players and attack, and make their damage tick up faster.

[Thrudh]

There are places where stuff is aggroing through a door... that you won't be able to open because of the damage tick.

This part isn't true, by the way... The tick is perfectly timed that if you open a door right after a tick, you'll have enough time before the next tick.

[Thrudh]

Teleporting to the person is indeed a solution, but it makes fear reapers pretty trivial then.

I don't like that suggestion if we can avoid it.

[Eryhn]

This is funny, if only because I had just posted that we have a choice between dev time spent on things like this reaper "root cause fixed in 3 months time" and content. I'd be the first to complain when the next update in three months time includes a reaper overhaul and no content, and I might be the first but I would not be the only one or the last.

And I suspect that the three persons I quoted below would be right there with me complaining about the lack of content.

always nice seeing people healthily cultivating their assumptions ...

I'd be fine with up to 2 update cycles (4-8 months) no new content if it means aggro and some other underlying quirks gets fixed thoroughly and not bandaided wherever partial aspects create the loudest complaints. specially if some enhancements and ED updates were to be thrown in atop ... and if it means the next content update doesn't need 3 patches in 2 weeks after release XD

[Niminae]

1) It's a big step from redesigning one Reaper to "a reaper overhaul"
2) Nothing says that they won't create new content with the fix to a broken mechanic. Have a quote or are you pulling it from the magic hat that you, and only you, have?
3) I love more and more the mind-reading in the future!!!!!! That takes some amazing skills.
4) We already know, 100%, that next update will be Stonelands quests or whatever they are called.

Thanks for your post!

1) It is? Who has the magic hat now? But to be clear, I was not only responding to your post. Notice how there were two other quotes in my post? And the other two people used terms such as "total redesign" and "three months time [spend on this one minor issue]." And you yourself said "redesigns, either small or big one." So really, you're not only ignoring the other people I quoted, you're not even owning up to what you yourself said.
2) Releasing 18 new quests will magically fix how reapers make you mad in about 4 old ones? That's some magic hat that you, and only you, have!
3) It's not mind reading, it is predicting future behavior based upon past behavior. It isn't infallible, but it does tend to be accurate.
4) Yes, and "Stonelands quests" could be one quest and a revamp of how reapers work, or it could be more content and no change to reapers. If those were the choices I'd prefer more quests. (Note that this is not a "magic hat" proclamation, it is merely an example.)

You're welcome!

[Wizza]

1) It is? Who has the magic hat now? But to be clear, I was not only responding to your post. Notice how there were two other quotes in my post? And the other two people used terms such as "total redesign" and "three months time [spend on this one minor issue]." And you yourself said "redesigns, either small or big one." So really, you're not only ignoring the other people I quoted, you're not even owning up to what you yourself said.
2) Releasing 18 new quests will magically fix how reapers make you mad in about 4 old ones? That's some magic hat that you, and only you, have!
3) It's not mind reading, it is predicting future behavior based upon past behavior. It isn't infallible, but it does tend to be accurate.
4) Yes, and "Stonelands quests" could be one quest and a revamp of how reapers work, or it could be more content and no change to reapers. If those were the choices I'd prefer more quests. (Note that this is not a "magic hat" proclamation, it is merely an example.)

You're welcome!

1) Reaper mobs =\= Reaper difficulty. Fear Reaper redesign =\= Reaper difficulty redesign. I know what I say. Do you?
2) What? 18 quests what?
3) Yes, assumptions. My favorites.
4) Ok? One quest is still content, contrary to the no content you claim and assume/tried to predict?

Tell me more.