Fate Singer Echoes of the Ancestors Ranged Attack Bonus Not Working

[barecm]

My testing:

Started with 0 ranged attack speed bonus. switched into fatesinger, activated EoA shiradi on my hotbar... ranged attack speed still 0. So, unless there is a graphics bug, it is not working at all.

Bug submitted as well, but then again, I have submitted many bug reports on this in the past with no response from any devs.

[Ulfo]

ranged attack speed still 0.

You check character sheet or combat log? Range/thrown weapon attack speed from Fatesinger/Shiradi Champion stances not show in charsheet, only in combat log.

[Mindos]

My testing:

Started with 0 ranged attack speed bonus. switched into fatesinger, activated EoA shiradi on my hotbar... ranged attack speed still 0. So, unless there is a graphics bug, it is not working at all.

Bug submitted as well, but then again, I have submitted many bug reports on this in the past with no response from any devs.

Last I saw I think Katz did some testing. And nothing was visual, but it DID work. But it only caused about 1 more arrow out of 100 to shoot.

Ill try to find the link. I think the thinking was that it did its advertised amount, but it included animation time as well as firing time.

[barecm]

Last I saw I think Katz did some testing. And nothing was visual, but it DID work. But it only caused about 1 more arrow out of 100 to shoot.

Ill try to find the link. I think the thinking was that it did its advertised amount, but it included animation time as well as firing time.

Well, 1 more arrow per 100 would be 1% not 10%. Saying one more arrow per 100 would suggest to me that there really was not a difference in the rof bonus, but more a game mechanic of firing that produced 1 extra. So, even if there truly was a boost to cause 1 more out of 100, that still is only 1% and makes me say it is not working or at least not working as advertised.

[barecm]

You check character sheet or combat log? Range/thrown weapon attack speed from Fatesinger/Shiradi Champion stances not show in charsheet, only in combat log.

It doesn't note it there either. I have since taken blinding speed, but like other overlapping bonuses, it does not say that I am benefitting from 2 different sources of ranged attack speed either. And, no mention of the bonus being removed when I switch destinies. There is mention of others being removed like grandeur and glitter of fame, but not AoE shiradi. So, I am left to believe that this is still not working.

I would really like to hear from a Dev on this since every other comment seems to be what people's opinions are and not really backed by any factual evidence of it working.

[LightBear]

Last I saw I think Katz did some testing. And nothing was visual, but it DID work. But it only caused about 1 more arrow out of 100 to shoot.

Ill try to find the link. I think the thinking was that it did its advertised amount, but it included animation time as well as firing time.

Let me guess, it has a hidden timer (with some default number)?

[Xyfiel]

I hit 20 on a pure Kensai AA build yesterday. I had to test this since I had planned to use it. With just a heroic brazenband(speed 7?) I had 67 shots in one minute and either 70 or 71 with echoes. My testing wasn't recorded and compared frame by frame but it was enough to show it works. Way back in 2010 me and Mr.Cow had done testing on the old ranger capstone and showed that bow speed increases are actually around 2/3 of listed amounts because of how they affect the animations. Echoes seems to still be using this ratio. The speed works off base attack rate so the more speed you have the worse it will be by %. By 30 I will likely only be getting 4-5% from it. Still nice but better than sense weakness or another tier IV?

[unbongwah]

With just a heroic brazenband(speed 7?) I had 67 shots in one minute and either 70 or 71 with echoes.

Did you test Echoes both with and without Brazenband? Want to know if it stacks with Enhancement bonuses. Thanks!

[Xyfiel]

Did you test Echoes both with and without Brazenband? Want to know if it stacks with Enhancement bonuses. Thanks!

Sure but 21 now
65 no speed
69 speed 7
69 echoes
72 speed 7 + echoes

Using the ~.64 multiplier from 2010
7*.64 = 4.48% = 2.9
10*.64= 6.4% = 4.16

Speed only: 65 + 2.9 = 68, off 1
Echoes only: 65 + 4.16 = 69, accurate
Both: 65 + 2.9 + 4.16 = 72, accurate

Only doing 1 minute tests leaves a decent error margin so 1 off means little. I didn't need exact testing to see if echoes worked or if it stacks.

[Arkat]

So was this question ever resolved? Was thinking about twisting in the Echoes of the Ancestors: Primal for the extra 10% bow speed but if it's not working...

[jakeelala]

Sure but 21 now
65 no speed
69 speed 7
69 echoes
72 speed 7 + echoes

Using the ~.64 multiplier from 2010
7*.64 = 4.48% = 2.9
10*.64= 6.4% = 4.16

Speed only: 65 + 2.9 = 68, off 1
Echoes only: 65 + 4.16 = 69, accurate
Both: 65 + 2.9 + 4.16 = 72, accurate

Only doing 1 minute tests leaves a decent error margin so 1 off means little. I didn't need exact testing to see if echoes worked or if it stacks.

I've tested this many times over the last few years for throwing specifically. My test results almost unanimously showing this to do either nothing, 1-2%, or actually SLOWING the overall throw rate down, at end game when combined with other common sources of throwing speed (Rapid Shot, Quick Draw, Blinding SPeed, Tensers, 25+ BaB, Whirling Wrists, etc).

Recently however, since I stopped playing, someone has suggested that it now is working more like intended and increasing speed. However, I still believe the combination of speed boosts on a given character along with BaB somehow changes how Echoes works. I think there may even been speed boosts that are overwritten by Echoes that are better, and why I noticed small decreases in speed with certain combos.

It would be nice if someone else would test these things and post results for current game mechanics.

[Cantor]

So was this question ever resolved? Was thinking about twisting in the Echoes of the Ancestors: Primal for the extra 10% bow speed but if it's not working...

I think the replies clearly indicate it works. It just doesn't display lots of speed effects don't.

[Arkat]

I think the replies clearly indicate it works. It just doesn't display lots of speed effects don't.

Jakeelala's post above shows me there are still questions about whether it works as advertised.

I'd like to know whether it works as described in the enhancement and if not, exactly how it works?

[Wh070aa]

If I remember correctly it did not stack with one of the archery feats or something. I remember getting it and being all excited when I unlocked it, but then realizing it does not work. Just like all bard related ranged things.

Just not worth taking IMO. Get Stay Frosty from Shiradi as splash instead, unless you are actually running fatesinger for leveling purposes. Then just clench your teeth and push trough. Maybe collect some sagas while in that destiny, to make it pass faster.

Remember, if its bard, and it's ranged, its bugged, and it's not helpful.

[Cantor]

Jakeelala's post above shows me there are still questions about whether it works as advertised.

I'd like to know whether it works as described in the enhancement and if not, exactly how it works?

The reason it's not 10%, was apparently that it affects the firing animation but not the reload animation. So it does 10%, but only to part of the total animation to load and fire. So it's effectively the 6-7% actual test result.

That post does indicate there may be some question still.

[cru121]

I recall some discussions about an attack speed cap for throwers. Perhaps Jake's at the cap, so there's no extra benefit. Try testing on a nonthrower character.

[Xyfiel]

I've tested this many times over the last few years for throwing specifically. My test results almost unanimously showing this to do either nothing, 1-2%, or actually SLOWING the overall throw rate down, at end game when combined with other common sources of throwing speed (Rapid Shot, Quick Draw, Blinding SPeed, Tensers, 25+ BaB, Whirling Wrists, etc).

Recently however, since I stopped playing, someone has suggested that it now is working more like intended and increasing speed. However, I still believe the combination of speed boosts on a given character along with BaB somehow changes how Echoes works. I think there may even been speed boosts that are overwritten by Echoes that are better, and why I noticed small decreases in speed with certain combos.

It would be nice if someone else would test these things and post results for current game mechanics.

I am not in a position to test it right now nor anything planned in the near future. My testing during this thread was Bow only so I could only speculate on throwing. I would not be surprised if quick draw or WW was the same bonus as Echoes. Since no one should be running Fatesinger the real question is it worth a tier IV twist? On a bow user the ceiling is 6.4% and the floor is around 4%. My test in this thread for Bab 21 showed a 69 to 72 difference. Is 3 hits a minute worth it at Level 21? Maybe for proc effects like para/terror. I think Pierce the Gloom during manyshot or Sense Weakness is more dps.

Imo it isn't worth it on a thrower due to the speed bonuses they already get. It is OK to use on a Archer but other choices are good too.

[Arkat]

I am not in a position to test it right now nor anything planned in the near future. My testing during this thread was Bow only so I could only speculate on throwing. I would not be surprised if quick draw or WW was the same bonus as Echoes. Since no one should be running Fatesinger the real question is it worth a tier IV twist? On a bow user the ceiling is 6.4% and the floor is around 4%. My test in this thread for Bab 21 showed a 69 to 72 difference. Is 3 hits a minute worth it at Level 21? Maybe for proc effects like para/terror. I think Pierce the Gloom during manyshot or Sense Weakness is more dps.

Imo it isn't worth it on a thrower due to the speed bonuses they already get. It is OK to use on a Archer but other choices are good too.

I think you have asked the most relevant question. Are an additional 6.4% bow shots worth a twist slot? That's a tough call.