DDOCast 468 - Casual Gaming: Gearing Up

[pjstechie]

We give some tips and a few choice items for Casual Players to Gear Up! We also cover the latest game and community news with our guests Evennote & Evilbeeker!

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Casual Gaming: Gearing Up - 4:33
Game News - 1:06:34
Community News - 1:22:14
Lightning Post - 1:28:44
Closing - 1:33:50

Watch shows live at twitch.tv/ddocast

Update 35.1 Release Notes -
Update 35.2 Release Notes -
Riding the Storm Q&A with Torc -
Notes to Strike a Chord: Level 6-10 Gear -
Notes to Strike a Chord: Level 11-15 Gear -
Tactilicious & Craftilicious: Dragon-Re-Born
Confessions of a Geek Mom: The Continued Adventures of the Youngest Halfling Commando
Confessions of a Geek Mom: What a Difference a Year Makes
How to Farm Collectibles

[FranOhmsford]

Well I gave up on this video 18 minutes in and I've posted on YouTube why but I missed something there and here might be a better place for it anyway:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Jeweled_Cloak

How does this merit a PERMANENT Cloak slot?

As a swap in maybe but Permanent? How the Heck do you fit it in?



Oh and like most other named loot now the rest of the easy {no need to fight Dragons or run Raid} named loot in GH has been massively outdated over the past 2 years!

[pjstechie]

Well I gave up on this video 18 minutes in and I've posted on YouTube why but I missed something there and here might be a better place for it anyway:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Jeweled_Cloak

How does this merit a PERMANENT Cloak slot?

As a swap in maybe but Permanent? How the Heck do you fit it in?



Oh and like most other named loot now the rest of the easy {no need to fight Dragons or run Raid} named loot in GH has been massively outdated over the past 2 years!

Sure, a lot of named items are outdated, but I dont think that means that casual players shouldnt consider it. A lot of that gear is good gear and its not too hard to get.

I guess my problem connecting your feedback is I hear you saying: "Casual players shouldnt run raids (where ppl generally consider the best loot to be) but they shouldnt go for outdated gear" and "PUGs dont pass gear and static groups/guilds dont run what i want to run"

So I'm unsure what you are suggesting since it seems to me like you are excluding pretty much everything but solo?

[Steve_Howe]

Sure, a lot of named items are outdated, but I dont think that means that casual players shouldnt consider it. A lot of that gear is good gear and its not too hard to get.

Agreed. I think he missed the fact that this series is about Casual players.

The Jeweled Cloak has a lot to like about it and is perfectly acceptable for the casual player.

[FranOhmsford]

The Jeweled Cloak has a lot to like about it and is perfectly acceptable for the casual player.

Really?

No, No it's Not!

The Jewelled Cloak is a Min/Maxer's item, a gamer's item NOT a Casual Player's item!

It's one of those items that Vets go on and on about but newbies and casuals will have real trouble fitting in to their IMPERFECT Gear set-up!

And you didn't answer my question either - How do you fit this item in? Remembering it takes up a CLOAK SLOT!

If it's a swap-in STATE it's a swap-in, But stop expecting Casuals and Newbies to utilise every swap-in item - Generally they're not going to be quick enough and will have trouble remembering/finding all these swap-ins.
You shouldn't really be expecting Casuals and Newbies to have 8-10 Tabs open either unless they're playing a Lvl 17+ Cleric or Wizard with a tonne of spells to fit in to those tabs and then they'd need even more tabs for all those extra swap-ins!

Then there's inventory space which generally casuals are not going to have every tab and most may only have 4 or 5 maximum IF they've got the Coin Lord Favour, the Plat and the Portable Hole.
Not to mention that the vast majority of bank space is behind multiple pay walls!



Oh and PLIS depletes in seconds and that has 50 charges - If the depletion rate of Jewelled Cloak is anything like that then again it's a gamer's item, a swap-in NOT a permanent gear slot!

[FranOhmsford]

Sure, a lot of named items are outdated, but I dont think that means that casual players shouldnt consider it. A lot of that gear is good gear and its not too hard to get.

6 years playing and I have 2 maybe 3 Shroud items and no more than one on any single character!

And that's because I ran Shroud quite a bit {I managed 20 completions on my Battle Cleric} pre MotU.

These days Heroic Shroud is no longer a popular Raid - In fact it's about as dead as Reaver's Fate!

I guess my problem connecting your feedback is I hear you saying: "Casual players shouldnt run raids (where ppl generally consider the best loot to be) but they shouldnt go for outdated gear" and "PUGs dont pass gear and static groups/guilds dont run what i want to run"

That's not what I said at all!

I said Casual Players CAN'T run Raids like you want them to NOT THAT THEY SHOULDN'T RUN THEM AT ALL!

Do you REALLY expect "Casual" Players or "Newbies" to EXTREME SHORTMAN SHROUD ON ELITE!?! We USED to run it on NORMAL!

So I'm unsure what you are suggesting since it seems to me like you are excluding pretty much everything but solo?

The fact is that most "Casuals" will end up soloing the vast majority of the time! That's just the way the game is!

It's all well and good saying "Join a Guild" or "Find a better Guild" but that's actually quite a lot harder to do than given credit for - Especially if like me you've levelled your OWN guild past 150 or even to lvl 50 or 75 or 90 or so on!
But that's on Cannith, I am in Guilds on other servers that aren't my own, that do have multiple players, that are considered Casual, Newbie Friendly, One has over 200 active accounts!
And guess what THEY ALL RUN REAPER OR EE WHEN THEY GROUP UP!

There are no Large "Casual" Guilds that aren't either filled with inactive accounts and soloers or cliquey guilds of Static Groups!
Mid sized Guilds and smaller Guilds have this problem even worse! The so-called "Good" ones will generally be full of Elitists NOT Casuals!

Heck I've even had people from KNOWN ALL-WELCOME GUILDS {Yeah and you know what I mean} join my LFMs and complain and whinge that I won't change it to Reaper! Or even worse go zerging off through EE Beyond the Rift before the rest of the party have even entered co-incidentally wiping the rest of the party as they all entered one at a time! {This was a while ago}.

But I'm not "excluding" anything!
I'm simply explaining that saying things like "check if anyone in group wants each random item you see in chest" is just plain lunacy! Even Static Groups are generally going to loot and run, Pugs are absolutely going to loot and run!
Unless it's Epic Two Toed Toby and Jibbers might drop! People will stick around for that but that's an end-chest too and frankly even then the RNG is 99% of the time utter vendor trash!

[Steve_Howe]

Fran,

The Jeweled Cloak, whether you like it or not, is indeed a casual player item.

I see all Heroic versions in the Plat AH all the time and I see Epic Normal versions in the Plat AH as well.

The EH and EE versions, however, are almost exclusively in the Shard AH. Regardless, the EN version is perfectly acceptable.

[FranOhmsford]

Fran,

The Jeweled Cloak, whether you like it or not, is indeed a casual player item.

I see all Heroic versions in the Plat AH all the time and I see Epic Normal versions in the Plat AH as well.

The EH and EE versions, however, are almost exclusively in the Shard AH. Regardless, the EN version is perfectly acceptable.

How does that prove it's a casual player item?

To me it proves the exact opposite - Why are they in the AH? Because no-one wants them!

EH and EE Versions maybe in the ASAH but again we don't know if they're actually selling and no selling for 5 shards or less doesn't count!


I've put Jewelled Cloaks on the AH for 20k plat and had them not sell - That is not the AH price of a must have item!


Now maybe it's because the item itself is too common - It's also in a very very popular quest that gets run multiple times per life if people are saga farming so that could definitely have an effect on it's selling price.
And yes pretty much every other item on that chain reward list {All normal versions} is utterly worthless and outdated and not even worth putting on the AH at all so most people who don't grab some extra runes or a renown reward if one actually turns up on the list will grab the cloak and stick it on the AH for 5k plat or just vendor it.



Casual players can get a Jewelled Cloak but will they want one?
Now maybe there could be a point in having a DDOCast Video on Named Gear that is better than it looks and have the Jewelled Cloak mentioned there BUT again gear that is better than it looks just like enhancements and feats that are better than they look is the preserve of the Veteran Builders NOT Casual Players!

[Steve_Howe]

How does that prove it's a casual player item?

They're easy to get. Casuals, to my mind anyway, generally don't have the time or maybe the inclination to farm certain quests over and over again or be a raid-monger like myself.

I've put Jewelled Cloaks on the AH for 20k plat and had them not sell - That is not the AH price of a must have item!

"Must have" was not one of the criteria in the discussion, Fran.

[FranOhmsford]

They're easy to get. Casuals, to my mind anyway, generally don't have the time or maybe the inclination to farm certain quests over and over again or be a raid-monger like myself.

Easy to get does not make it a Casual Player item - It simply makes it an item a Casual Player might get quite quickly.

There are plenty of items like that and again you haven't answered my question - How do you fit this cloak into your gear if it's not a swap-in!?!

Casual Players don't have PERFECT GEAR!

Chances are they're not going to wear this cloak - especially not permanently!
And as a swap-in it will most likely get forgotten in the inventory of a true casual player!

[Steve_Howe]

Easy to get does not make it a Casual Player item - It simply makes it an item a Casual Player might get quite quickly.

There are plenty of items like that and again you haven't answered my question - How do you fit this cloak into your gear if it's not a swap-in!?!

Why does it have to be a swap-in?

It's got two augment slots for some needed gear flexibility and it's got +10 to all resists. The charges on it are nice but not the ONLY reason to use it. It's a pretty decent item to wear at all times.

[Saekee]

the cloak of invisibility is an easy farm--5 minutes--from a FtP quest and is one of the best-in-slot items for heroics. Ghostly/incorp, a green slot, ML 8.
Jeweled cloak should not be in the discussion other than as a swap against beholders (and some caster bosses that spam energy drain) because a casual
player will not have the PLIS for absorption. Hence it should NOT be left in slot all the time.

I did not listen to the podcast too long due to time constraints but I have never understood how people define casual vs powergamers (the latter might as well be addicts; would we label smoking addicts 'powerpuffers?'). Also, I am not sure high level/high difficulty epic quests and raids are for casual players, however one defines them.

[pjstechie]

I did not listen to the podcast too long due to time constraints but I have never understood how people define casual vs powergamers (the latter might as well be addicts; would we label smoking addicts 'powerpuffers?'). Also, I am not sure high level/high difficulty epic quests and raids are for casual players, however one defines them.

Defining what a casual player is, especially for someone else, is risky business. That's why we started by giving some ideas about what a "casual player" is. I certainly DO NOT equate "casual" with "skill." What I interpret Fran's overall theme of comments is that fran's definition of "casual" is very related to "skill." Fran said Casual Players CAN'T run Raids like you want them to. I completely disagree with this. I lead raids a lot, probably more than most, and there's only 2 ways I want casual players to run raids - participate and listen. I'm not expecting casual players (or really PUGs) to fill vital roles. I see "casual" as a demarcation of available time and resources to pour into the game.

I'm not suggesting casual players have perfect gear. The whole point of the discussion is to give casual players ideas on how to find some good gear that is reliable to get (notice I particularly focused on ways that work towards a goal of acquiring something as opposed to relying on the RNG). It was never about finding the perfect gear, it was answering several listeners who asked for advice pointing at casual players on how they can improve their gear.

I don't understand why a "casual" player can't use swap in items. That seems like a fairly low hanging fruit to improve your play if you arent. (mental note to add this to the upcoming "improve your play" podcast)

No i do not expect casual players to shortman difficult content like raids and I don't ever recall saying so. I do think casual players CAN do harder content, especially when they are tagging along with a strong guild in a raid or slavers and I think "power" gamers (or anyone else) do a great disservice to casual players by telling them they can't do these things. It might be harder for someone with less resources (including time) but thats okay.

I also maintain that guilds and static groups made up of primarily like minded players with similar goals will maximize their experience. Really though, I dont care how you find players: guilds, chat channels, LFMs, static groups, forums, even just going solo are all viable options - but i refute the idea that you can't find people who want to run similar types of content to the point that your only option is to go solo. I'm not saying its always easy, but I will not tell my listeners that they can't play this game how they want to with who they want, and that includes being able to find groups to run content on normal. Grouping is a very effective tactic for getting gear, experience, and frankly just playing the game.

thanks for the discussion and for listening.

[FranOhmsford]

Defining what a casual player is, especially for someone else, is risky business. That's why we started by giving some ideas about what a "casual player" is. I certainly DO NOT equate "casual" with "skill." What I interpret Fran's overall theme of comments is that fran's definition of "casual" is very related to "skill." Fran said Casual Players CAN'T run Raids like you want them to. I completely disagree with this. I lead raids a lot, probably more than most, and there's only 2 ways I want casual players to run raids - participate and listen. I'm not expecting casual players (or really PUGs) to fill vital roles. I see "casual" as a demarcation of available time and resources to pour into the game.

Oh but it is about "Skill", at least partly and to my mind it's the major part.

You see, it's patently ludicrous to call a gamer who plays DDO once a month and Call of Duty the rest of the time a Casual! It cannot just be about time!


Casuals may play multiple games too but chances are REAL Casuals will not be "good" at any of those games! At least not by Forum standards of "good".


Now time does play a role but I used to play DDO 10 hrs a day every day, nowadays it's more like 2-3 hrs a day most days. Yet I play DDO less casually now than I did back then!

I used to spend hours upon hours in Slayer Zones, now I only enter Slayer Zones to get to Quests!


In fact the less time I have to play the less likely I am to play "Casually"!

I'm not suggesting casual players have perfect gear. The whole point of the discussion is to give casual players ideas on how to find some good gear that is reliable to get (notice I particularly focused on ways that work towards a goal of acquiring something as opposed to relying on the RNG). It was never about finding the perfect gear, it was answering several listeners who asked for advice pointing at casual players on how they can improve their gear.

The problem here is that The Jewelled Cloak is not a wear all the time item - It's a swap-in - and this basically means it's an item to look for AFTER getting your "standard" gear NOT BEFORE!

I don't understand why a "casual" player can't use swap in items. That seems like a fairly low hanging fruit to improve your play if you arent. (mental note to add this to the upcoming "improve your play" podcast)

Now in that "improve your play" podcast YES, Talking about "swap-in" items fits!

But you have to remember just how much in DDO is potions, Scrolls, Wands, Swap-in/out gear - It's not just one thing to remember AND Casuals as the name suggests are unlikely to memorise all this - ESPECIALLY IF THEY PLAY MULTIPLE CHARACTERS ALL WITH THEIR OWN potions/scrolls/swap-ins/abilities and possibly spells too!


Then there's picking your time to actually utilise that swap-in - A "Casual" player will generally pick the wrong time!

No i do not expect casual players to shortman difficult content like raids and I don't ever recall saying so. I do think casual players CAN do harder content, especially when they are tagging along with a strong guild in a raid or slavers and I think "power" gamers (or anyone else) do a great disservice to casual players by telling them they can't do these things. It might be harder for someone with less resources (including time) but thats okay.

I haven't seen a Shroud LFM fill in Months so yes you are expecting casual players to shortman difficult content and raids - You may not think you are but when the group is not going to wait 2 hrs to fill yes it's going to be shortman!

And remember that Casual Players are unlikely to know which Guilds are going to be ok with them "tagging along" or as some Guilds will call it - Piking!

Casual Players, again as the name suggests and knowing you and others consider Casual to equal time alone are far less likely to have a knowledge of who's a "friendly to casuals" raid leader.


Finally: Most Casuals will want to run a raid when they're actually online, which will generally mean having to create an LFM themselves NOT rely on pure luck of having an LFM open up while they're sitting there watching it in hope!

I also maintain that guilds and static groups made up of primarily like minded players with similar goals will maximize their experience. Really though, I dont care how you find players: guilds, chat channels, LFMs, static groups, forums, even just going solo are all viable options - but i refute the idea that you can't find people who want to run similar types of content to the point that your only option is to go solo. I'm not saying its always easy, but I will not tell my listeners that they can't play this game how they want to with who they want, and that includes being able to find groups to run content on normal. Grouping is a very effective tactic for getting gear, experience, and frankly just playing the game.

Oh of course they'd maximise your experience but it's generally severely overexaggerated how easy it is to get that guild of primarily like-minded players.

Static Groups tend to be once a week 2-3 hrs at a time things NOT every day - Again I feel it's massively overexaggerated how easy these are to find too - There'll almost always be at least one player in group who falls behind or continues levelling up while the rest of the group aren't online!



I know people on these forums who consider themselves Casual but most definitely aren't by your definition of it - I'm one of them btw - Even now only playing 2-3hrs most days I'm NOT Casual by your definition of the term - Back when I played 10hrs a day every single day of the year {2011-2014}..... yeah!

[Renvar]

The disagreement here seems to come down to the difference of opinion in the definition of "casual".

If casual is primarily a measure of time spent per week/month in game and not skill level, then the discussion will be about items you can acquire quickly that yield 80-90% of the value of a heavy grind item. (Slavers gear, for example). The idea is that a good player that just doesn't play much will probably be looking for high return on time investment. Looking at XP grinds that means: Do I need 36 Heroic PLs and triple completionist on a PM wizard? Or do I just want 36 point build and the PL's associated with DC's and Spell Pen? Do I need BF, SK, or Morninglord PL's? Probably not. You can make a PM Wizard with 90% of the power of a triple completionist wizard with probably 6-7 PL's instead of 36. Identifying how this can work is of value. Let's say they are even more casual than that. What if we just want 2 PL's? That is another discussion.

Taking that to gear, the same applies. Spell Absorption is something that you need in today's game. The Jeweled Cloak is, by far, the easiest way to obtain that. Easier than Mantle Epic Mirror Cloak or PLIS. Maybe Magestar is just as easy, but the GH end reward is a more sure thing than a pull from the HH chests. In content that is some of the most popular and easy to get groups for. Also, magestar absorbs spell levels. The Cloaks absorb full spells. The cloak also has more charges and can be acquired in a heroic version or epic version. That makes the Jeweled Cloak more valuable and flexible. The Jeweled Cloak is 90% of the value in 1/10th (or less) the grind in easy to run content. That is the definition of what a casual player needs to be targeting.

All the rest of Fran's nit picking and hyperbole about the definition of a casual player is noise. PJ defined casual for the purposes of the discussion and everything that follows flows from that. if you disagree with the base premise, then it stands to reason that you will not agree with the conclusions, either. But he's not going to re-record the podcast because one person thinks casual means something different and wants a different discussion about it.

I think it would help if you, without being aggressive or insulting to the show host or the show content, posted your definition of casual player and the gear you think would support that style of player. Present an alternative position and defend the merits of it rather than just taking swipes at the options presented. That would add value to the community. It is very easy to take shots at someone else's ideas without presenting your own solution. And reductive.

[Steve_Howe]

The disagreement here seems to come down to the difference of opinion in the definition of "casual".

If casual is primarily a measure of time spent per week/month in game and not skill level, then the discussion will be about items you can acquire quickly that yield 80-90% of the value of a heavy grind item. (Slavers gear, for example). The idea is that a good player that just doesn't play much will probably be looking for high return on time investment. Looking at XP grinds that means: Do I need 36 Heroic PLs and triple completionist on a PM wizard? Or do I just want 36 point build and the PL's associated with DC's and Spell Pen? Do I need BF, SK, or Morninglord PL's? Probably not. You can make a PM Wizard with 90% of the power of a triple completionist wizard with probably 6-7 PL's instead of 36. Identifying how this can work is of value. Let's say they are even more casual than that. What if we just want 2 PL's? That is another discussion.

Taking that to gear, the same applies. Spell Absorption is something that you need in today's game. The Jeweled Cloak is, by far, the easiest way to obtain that. Easier than Mantle Epic Mirror Cloak or PLIS. Maybe Magestar is just as easy, but the GH end reward is a more sure thing than a pull from the HH chests. In content that is some of the most popular and easy to get groups for. Also, magestar absorbs spell levels. The Cloaks absorb full spells. The cloak also has more charges and can be acquired in a heroic version or epic version. That makes the Jeweled Cloak more valuable and flexible. The Jeweled Cloak is 90% of the value in 1/10th (or less) the grind in easy to run content. That is the definition of what a casual player needs to be targeting.

All the rest of Fran's nit picking and hyperbole about the definition of a casual player is noise. PJ defined casual for the purposes of the discussion and everything that follows flows from that. if you disagree with the base premise, then it stands to reason that you will not agree with the conclusions, either. But he's not going to re-record the podcast because one person thinks casual means something different and wants a different discussion about it.

I think it would help if you, without being aggressive or insulting to the show host or the show content, posted your definition of casual player and the gear you think would support that style of player. Present an alternative position and defend the merits of it rather than just taking swipes at the options presented. That would add value to the community. It is very easy to take shots at someone else's ideas without presenting your own solution. And reductive.

Amen.

[FranOhmsford]

Taking that to gear, the same applies. Spell Absorption is something that you need in today's game. The Jeweled Cloak is, by far, the easiest way to obtain that. Easier than Mantle Epic Mirror Cloak or PLIS. Maybe Magestar is just as easy, but the GH end reward is a more sure thing than a pull from the HH chests. In content that is some of the most popular and easy to get groups for. Also, magestar absorbs spell levels. The Cloaks absorb full spells. The cloak also has more charges and can be acquired in a heroic version or epic version. That makes the Jeweled Cloak more valuable and flexible. The Jeweled Cloak is 90% of the value in 1/10th (or less) the grind in easy to run content. That is the definition of what a casual player needs to be targeting.

The Heroic Normal Jeweled Cloak {which is what you will get from the GH end reward as the reward list only gives the Normal versions - Pretty certain this applies if you run the epic quests too} has FIVE Charges!

The Heroic Hard Version is basically no better {as +4 random stat on an augment is noise at that level}.

You really need absolute minimum the Heroic Elite version and even that only has 8 charges.

I think it would help if you, without being aggressive or insulting to the show host or the show content, posted your definition of casual player and the gear you think would support that style of player. Present an alternative position and defend the merits of it rather than just taking swipes at the options presented. That would add value to the community. It is very easy to take shots at someone else's ideas without presenting your own solution. And reductive.

My point is that pretending it's so easy for "Casual" Players when you're blatantly not talking about "Casual" Players causes the Devs to continue to force "Casual" Players out of the game!

There are no easy options for gearing "Casual" Players because we're not looking for just one item or even a handful of items - We're looking for entire gearsets! We're miles behind vets and just having one spell absorb cloak is not going to make up that difference!

Look, If I concentrated on one character or even 3 or 4 I could probably very quickly sort out perfect gear {well by my standards, I'm not talking Raid Loot here} for every level.
But because I play so many characters {incl. barely geared alts on other servers where I cannot craft even mid heroic stuff and aren't in high level Guilds} I can see what you don't! I can see what Returning Casuals {people who are far more Casual even than I} and New Players are up against!


I'm asking you to stop misrepresenting "Casuals"!

[Niminae]

Easy to get does not make it a Casual Player item - It simply makes it an item a Casual Player might get quite quickly.

There are plenty of items like that and again you haven't answered my question - How do you fit this cloak into your gear if it's not a swap-in!?!

Casual Players don't have PERFECT GEAR!

Chances are they're not going to wear this cloak - especially not permanently!
And as a swap-in it will most likely get forgotten in the inventory of a true casual player!

You make the point against your position quite well. Since casual players don't have PERFECT GEAR (why shout this?) they are less likely to have a cloak which is better to wear than a Jeweled Cloak.

[Renvar]

causes the Devs to continue to force "Casual" Players out of the game!

Again, your definition of Casual clearly does not match the intended audience of the podcast. Which is fine. Feel free to define casual however you want and specify the gear that you think is appropriate based on your definition.

I also see your quote above and think you clearly have a beef with the devs and the recent Reaper and RR grinds and are taking out your unhappiness on the members of the community. I encourage you to share your thoughts with the devs directly.

[Steve_Howe]

The Heroic Normal Jeweled Cloak {which is what you will get from the GH end reward as the reward list only gives the Normal versions - Pretty certain this applies if you run the epic quests too} has FIVE Charges!

Nope. Try completing the chain on Epic level and then talking to the guy who started you on the Epic chain - Draznok ar'Athad.

You do only get Epic Normal versions, though.