Enlarge On Warlock

[Viconiax]

I've never taking this feat on any of my casters but people said it's pretty good for warlock. Is enlarge worth it over another spell focus or spell pen?

[Sam-u-r-eye]

TLR?
Give her a try!

On a DC caster it is more valuable than completionist. Why? The feat is a QoL improvement. This is due to the mechanics of reaper.
For example, you can pull a pack by charming a particularly annoying champion, getting him killed by his comrades and allow the tank to get a clean shot. (However if you fail your save there may be trouble, hence the value of a no-fail confusion like Warlock Active Past Life)
For example, you can hold a reaper very far away, or target an archer very far away, OR put yourself well beyond the range of a pesky beholder. Von3 becomes cheese with enlarge.

Things affected that may be useful:
Charms (Command Undead, Ooze Puppet, Suggestion, Charm Monster, Great Old One, etc.)
Mass Hold Monster
Hold Monster
FoD
PK
Circle of Death / Undeath to Death

I'm a fan of enlarge, even on a non-DC caster. Things affected that may be useful:
Power word: Stun
Power word: Kill
Arcane Pulse
Wizard PL: TR missles

[FuzzyDuck81]

It's great, i always take it - the extra long range on consume, striken & burning blood is great as a combat opener & if you have confusion, it can be a lot of fun for causing chaos.

[Morroiel]

Most important feat on a dc caster at the moment - and its not even debatable.

Try it out - if you don't like it, you're probably using it wrong.

Pack of mobs (in reaper - so multiple champs are highly probably):

1) target champ without charm immunity, tap charm (if it fails) - tap mass charm or mass suggestion (depending on if GOO or Fiend)

2) while mobs are fighting other mobs, move in with wings, through a single target charm on any mob (champs or carnage reapers are a plus) - then throw a mass hold right after

3) Literally wipe out an entire pack of mobs with ease (if there are any archers giving you trouble, while the mobs are fighting each other you can tap blindness sla or instakills depending on if they are champs

Which is pretty much what sam said. I'd like to add that enlarge also makes certain spells move from barely viable to viable in high skull reaper: touch range spells especially.

Anyways I'm a big fan of enlarge.

[KoobTheProud]

Enlarge hasn't been worth it on any of my Warlocks, that being 2 Feylocks, a GOO and a Fiend at this point. If it worked with Hurl Through Hell I'd have taken it on the Fiend. The other spells I'd have used it on the other Locks with were all too limited use to justify the feat given the alternatives available.

My FvS loved it for Banishment, Destruction and various other commonly used spells. The Warlocks have tended to use blasts and/or aura for baseline damage and Enlarge just doesn't fit that profile.

[Morroiel]

Enlarge hasn't been worth it on any of my Warlocks, that being 2 Feylocks, a GOO and a Fiend at this point. If it worked with Hurl Through Hell I'd have taken it on the Fiend. The other spells I'd have used it on the other Locks with were all too limited use to justify the feat given the alternatives available.

My FvS loved it for Banishment, Destruction and various other commonly used spells. The Warlocks have tended to use blasts and/or aura for baseline damage and Enlarge just doesn't fit that profile.

My comments were more focused on a dc caster lock but anyways even for non-dc casters here's why you should take it:

It works on consume, stricken, stunning blast, and pwk (if goo), ottos irresistable dance (fey), power word stun (non dc caster feat), power word blind (fiend).

But to each their own...

[KoobTheProud]

I'm not arguing that Enlarge doesn't make some options really choice just that there are a lot of feats that make Warlocks really choice at this point.

For a DC caster that is not going to take Maximize/Empower it's a fairly easy call but I think for anybody else it is on the bubble or off the edge. This would be my reasoning on why:

Maximize, Empower - no brainers to up either ES blast/burst, SE Consume/Stricken, BBlood, EWave, TS Stun Blast, EBall, generally some combo of the lower level stuff and a finisher that get cast fairly often in rotation.

Quicken - Speeds almost everything up and while some builds can avoid it most shouldn't, especially if they're going to be taking AE damage a lot.

SF: Evo - to max pact damage hitting. Less important for some builds but important for ES builds.

SF: Nec - Important for the non ES builds for the most part for the Magister twist. Some builds will take both.

Spell Pen - Important for all builds for the twist. Even ES builds can use it for Disco Ball and Otto's Irresistible which has a spell res check.

Force of Personality - Important for everybody, although some people will figure out ways to not take it.

That's 6 feats, assuming just one of Evo/Nec, before Enlarge really comes into the picture for most builds.

The competing feats at that point include Insightful Reflexes, SF: Enc, Heighten, SF: Transmute (Flesh to Stone), etc.

Would you recommend people taking Enlarge in general or just in Reaper for the safety and distance it provides?

[Morroiel]

I'm not arguing that Enlarge doesn't make some options really choice just that there are a lot of feats that make Warlocks really choice at this point.

For a DC caster that is not going to take Maximize/Empower it's a fairly easy call but I think for anybody else it is on the bubble or off the edge. This would be my reasoning on why:

Maximize, Empower - no brainers to up either ES blast/burst, SE Consume/Stricken, BBlood, EWave, TS Stun Blast, EBall, generally some combo of the lower level stuff and a finisher that get cast fairly often in rotation.

Quicken - Speeds almost everything up and while some builds can avoid it most shouldn't, especially if they're going to be taking AE damage a lot.

SF: Evo - to max pact damage hitting. Less important for some builds but important for ES builds.

SF: Nec - Important for the non ES builds for the most part for the Magister twist. Some builds will take both.

Spell Pen - Important for all builds for the twist. Even ES builds can use it for Disco Ball and Otto's Irresistible which has a spell res check.

Force of Personality - Important for everybody, although some people will figure out ways to not take it.

That's 6 feats, assuming just one of Evo/Nec, before Enlarge really comes into the picture for most builds.

The competing feats at that point include Insightful Reflexes, SF: Enc, Heighten, SF: Transmute (Flesh to Stone), etc.

Would you recommend people taking Enlarge in general or just in Reaper for the safety and distance it provides?

Quite frankly I wouldn't recommend people play ES blast/bursters anymore. It is for the lazy or for the ill informed (imo). I guess the only situation I'd recommend it in is on a low budget first or second life toon.

For DC casters these should be your feats if you solo (not including BoGW till patch hits fixing it): I'm assuming dragonborn because anything else is not an option imo. Feats are also not in any particular order.

1) SF necro 3) wiz pl / completionist 6) enlarge 9) spell pen 12) g spell pen 15) quicken 18) heighten 21) epic spell pen 24) embolden 27) ruin 30) g ruin

1) SF necro 3) completionist 6) enlarge 9) spell pen 12) g spell pen 15) quicken 18) heighten 21) epic spell pen 24) embolden 27) ruin / g spell focus necro / arcane insight 30) wiz pl

For Non-DC casters its a little less clear: I'd probably do something like the following -

1) empower / wiz pl / (wlk pl if it worked) 3) completionist 6) enlarge 9) maximize 12) mental toughness 15) quicken 18) imp mental toughness 21) wellspring of power 24) epic eldritch blast 27) ruin 30) g ruin

[slarden]

Enlarge hasn't been worth it on any of my Warlocks, that being 2 Feylocks, a GOO and a Fiend at this point. If it worked with Hurl Through Hell I'd have taken it on the Fiend. The other spells I'd have used it on the other Locks with were all too limited use to justify the feat given the alternatives available.

My FvS loved it for Banishment, Destruction and various other commonly used spells. The Warlocks have tended to use blasts and/or aura for baseline damage and Enlarge just doesn't fit that profile.

Enlarge is really solid right now due mostly to what I consider bugs in the game. There is no reason to pass it up.

There is alot of room for feat diversity that makes minor trade-off differences that have almost no impact when clearing a dungeon. It really depends on whether you want your character to serve 1 narrow purpose or to be effective across a wider range of content and skull levels. If you want a support character in a static group for just 10 skull you can pass on all dps feats. If you want to run at various skull levels, solo, short man and 6-man higher skulls you might want to give up a few DC for more dps when soloing and short-manning. You will hardly notice the difference in the high skull runs but will like the short manning and low skull runs much better.

ES warlocks are really solid for lower skull runs esp with how effective temp hp is as self healing at the moment. For higher skulls I use my necro warlock and illusionist the most. Casters make bad dps builds for higher skull reaper due to resource constraints, but in a strong group they can get by.

[KoobTheProud]

Enlarge is really solid right now due mostly to what I consider bugs in the game. There is no reason to pass it up.

There is alot of room for feat diversity that makes minor trade-off differences that have almost no impact when clearing a dungeon. It really depends on whether you want your character to serve 1 narrow purpose or to be effective across a wider range of content and skull levels. If you want a support character in a static group for just 10 skull you can pass on all dps feats. If you want to run at various skull levels, solo, short man and 6-man higher skulls you might want to give up a few DC for more dps when soloing and short-manning. You will hardly notice the difference in the high skull runs but will like the short manning and low skull runs much better.

ES warlocks are really solid for lower skull runs esp with how effective temp hp is as self healing at the moment. For higher skulls I use my necro warlock and illusionist the most. Casters make bad dps builds for higher skull reaper due to resource constraints, but in a strong group they can get by.

This would explain the disconnect, I'm not running reaper and likely never will. It has no appeal for me at all because I don't care for a grind that is related only to a difficulty that I never wanted in the first place. As a solo player Elite gives me everything I need.

That's why I asked Morr if he was suggesting Enlarge only in the context of reaper or as a general suggestion. I don't see Enlarge as all that valuable in Elite at this point compared to some of the other options.

[CaptainPurge]

As a solo player Elite gives me everything I need.

Guessing you're slaughtering EBB as is. So why not just R(1)BB 120%?

[KoobTheProud]

Guessing you're slaughtering EBB as is. So why not just R(1)BB 120%?

I'm slaughtering EBB on the Warlock, everybody else it's a really fun fight and I have no idea if a champ or boss is going to end it early for me.

I guess the real reason is that I'm not looking for any additional grind with so many already in front of me. Just the thought of Reaper XP and trees, even though they're completely incidental and happen at the same time, is making my skin crawl as I type this. The idea of having to do this on a bunch of characters solo is nauseating, particularly given that means they'll all Warlock at some point for efficiency.

[slarden]

I'm slaughtering EBB on the Warlock, everybody else it's a really fun fight and I have no idea if a champ or boss is going to end it early for me.

I guess the real reason is that I'm not looking for any additional grind with so many already in front of me. Just the thought of Reaper XP and trees, even though they're completely incidental and happen at the same time, is making my skin crawl as I type this. The idea of having to do this on a bunch of characters solo is nauseating, particularly given that means they'll all Warlock at some point for efficiency.

This is a good way of looking at it. For a solo player the only real reason to run reaper is to fill out the reaper tree for reaper raiding. If you have no plans of doing that the only reason to run reaper is for fun - if it's not fun - yeah no point at all.

[Blastyswa]

Personally, I haven't bothered much with Enlarge. My feat selection for endgame DC casting when I'll include spell penetration will look something like:

1. Completionist

3. Insightful Reflexes (If I can get spell focus: Enchant from magister to stick through ETR without resetting)

6. Spell Penetration

9. Greater Spell Penetration

12. Maximize Spell

15. Empower Spell

18. Quicken Spell

21. Epic Spell Penetration

24. Embolden Spell

27. Ruin

30. Greater Ruin

So for a version that focuses on both DPS and DCs there really isn't much leeway to slot it in. Empower Spell could potentially be dropped, but then you're looking at a DPS loss for utility. Personally I never have issues just getting up a little closer to use my spells. I'll usually drop a web down and then follow it up with a mass hold and a soundburst once the enemies enter it; sure it could be nice to do extended range instakills and the like, but it's like eschew materials (Although I do grant that enlarge is significantly better than eschew). Sure it's nice and handy, but you can learn how to play without it. Now if your concern is trying to have longer range instakills so you can lead the killcount over the other instakillers in the party I could see taking it, but at that point you need to raise the skull.

[Morroiel]

Personally, I haven't bothered much with Enlarge. My feat selection for endgame DC casting when I'll include spell penetration will look something like:

1. Completionist

3. Insightful Reflexes (If I can get spell focus: Enchant from magister to stick through ETR without resetting)

6. Spell Penetration

9. Greater Spell Penetration

12. Maximize Spell

15. Empower Spell

18. Quicken Spell

21. Epic Spell Penetration

24. Embolden Spell

27. Ruin

30. Greater Ruin

So for a version that focuses on both DPS and DCs there really isn't much leeway to slot it in. Empower Spell could potentially be dropped, but then you're looking at a DPS loss for utility. Personally I never have issues just getting up a little closer to use my spells. I'll usually drop a web down and then follow it up with a mass hold and a soundburst once the enemies enter it; sure it could be nice to do extended range instakills and the like, but it's like eschew materials (Although I do grant that enlarge is significantly better than eschew). Sure it's nice and handy, but you can learn how to play without it. Now if your concern is trying to have longer range instakills so you can lead the killcount over the other instakillers in the party I could see taking it, but at that point you need to raise the skull.

Don't know why you'd ever take insightful reflexes - there shouldn't be a significant difference in your dex / int anyways. Certainly not to justify a feat. If you REALLY must waste a feat on something like this: force of personality would serve you much better. That's an aside.

Now onto the crux of the matter: why is enlarge so good (I'm going to qualify this further - why is it so good for dc casters in endgame). While slarden is correct that enlarge can (still) be abused to essentially cheese mobs with broken aggro mechanics. That's actually one of the weakest parts about the feat (it takes a long time - and it doesn't work all the time). What's far more powerful is to throw a charm outside of aggro range - which results in appropriate aggro list changes. You can then wing in and setup cc / further charms without having to deal with (most of the aggro - I say most because sometimes there will be an atypical ai). This function of enlarge is working as intended - it is altogether different from the instakill cheesing. In addition even if in the future the charms in reaper are toned down, deflecting aggro is TOO valuable. YET it is by far the safest method for dealing with high skull reaper content. There's a whole host of other cool things you can do with enlarge. See the real power behind enlarge is its versatility. There are certain things that you can't do as a dc caster without enlarge. The increased versatility is flat out unbeatable as a feat: single-handedly better than any other feat you can take besides quicken.

That being said I will say the following: versatility is op on a caster - when the opportunity cost for picking versatility is low, you should opt for it (this goes for spell lists, feats, skills, items, major class choices / enhancements, and destiny). You used to be able to get by being a 2,3,4 trick pony. Now if you really want to thrive on high skull reaper you need to exploit the full range of what's available to you with regards to the things listed above (spells, feats, etc).

[slarden]

Don't know why you'd ever take insightful reflexes - there shouldn't be a significant difference in your dex / int anyways. Certainly not to justify a feat. If you REALLY must waste a feat on something like this: force of personality would serve you much better. That's an aside.

Now onto the crux of the matter: why is enlarge so good (I'm going to qualify this further - why is it so good for dc casters in endgame). While slarden is correct that enlarge can (still) be abused to essentially cheese mobs with broken aggro mechanics. That's actually one of the weakest parts about the feat (it takes a long time - and it doesn't work all the time). What's far more powerful is to throw a charm outside of aggro range - which results in appropriate aggro list changes. You can then wing in and setup cc / further charms without having to deal with (most of the aggro - I say most because sometimes there will be an atypical ai). This function of enlarge is working as intended - it is altogether different from the instakill cheesing. In addition even if in the future the charms in reaper are toned down, deflecting aggro is TOO valuable. YET it is by far the safest method for dealing with high skull reaper content. There's a whole host of other cool things you can do with enlarge. See the real power behind enlarge is its versatility. There are certain things that you can't do as a dc caster without enlarge. The increased versatility is flat out unbeatable as a feat: single-handedly better than any other feat you can take besides quicken.

That being said I will say the following: versatility is op on a caster - when the opportunity cost for picking versatility is low, you should opt for it (this goes for spell lists, feats, skills, items, major class choices / enhancements, and destiny). You used to be able to get by being a 2,3,4 trick pony. Now if you really want to thrive on high skull reaper you need to exploit the full range of what's available to you with regards to the things listed above (spells, feats, etc).

This isn't meant as a criticism, so please don't take it that way. The charming in reaper needs to be addressed by the devs and my opinion is cheese and works too good. So yeah the ability to instakill a powerful mob is good, but the charm also is working way too good and needs to be addressed by the devs. Enlarge also needs to be addressed independent of charms. I am sure you realize by now all this is widely known - it's been happening this way since Lamannia and the devs can only do so much to address cheese and AI / game flaws.

The point Koob was making is that enlarge is not needed outside of reaper and I agree with him. There is no such thing as an absolute optimal feat list. There is perhaps an optimal feat list for the combination of content being and playstyle, but not an absolute list. If anything this thread is a good reminder of what Koob pointed out - context matters alot.

Much as I said from the beginning high skull reaper is all about cheese and exploiting AI and game flaws.

I agree with what you are saying in general, but I also find high skull reapers to be kind of boring once you figure out what works. It's just a longer version of the quest using cheesy tactics to win. It's exactly like the old epics in that regard. Teamwork... maybe a little, but just bring the right roles is the main thing. I don't think enlarge is a must in 3-5 skull reaper, but I am still taking it on my casters since even in lower skulls there are some tough parts and it makes it easier. But again, context matters.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

This isn't meant as a criticism, so please don't take it that way. The charming in reaper needs to be addressed by the devs and my opinion is cheese and works too good. So yeah the ability to instakill a powerful mob is good, but the charm also is working way too good and needs to be addressed by the devs. Enlarge also needs to be addressed independent of charms. I am sure you realize by now all this is widely known - it's been happening this way since Lamannia and the devs can only do so much to address cheese and AI / game flaws.

Your perception of charms is hyperbolic, from what I can see in about 100 hours playing Reaper at cap in pretty silly scenarios.
Making Charms interesting again is probably the most interesting part about Reaper---and a good way in which it revitalized the basic mechanics.
A charm only lasts 10 seconds and the DC requirements are quite high in many cases.

Thank god I have no reason to run with borelocks anymore lol.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

Don't know why you'd ever take insightful reflexes - there shouldn't be a significant difference in your dex / int anyways. Certainly not to justify a feat. If you REALLY must waste a feat on something like this: force of personality would serve you much better. That's an aside.

Now onto the crux of the matter: why is enlarge so good (I'm going to qualify this further - why is it so good for dc casters in endgame). While slarden is correct that enlarge can (still) be abused to essentially cheese mobs with broken aggro mechanics. That's actually one of the weakest parts about the feat (it takes a long time - and it doesn't work all the time). What's far more powerful is to throw a charm outside of aggro range - which results in appropriate aggro list changes. You can then wing in and setup cc / further charms without having to deal with (most of the aggro - I say most because sometimes there will be an atypical ai). This function of enlarge is working as intended - it is altogether different from the instakill cheesing. In addition even if in the future the charms in reaper are toned down, deflecting aggro is TOO valuable. YET it is by far the safest method for dealing with high skull reaper content. There's a whole host of other cool things you can do with enlarge. See the real power behind enlarge is its versatility. There are certain things that you can't do as a dc caster without enlarge. The increased versatility is flat out unbeatable as a feat: single-handedly better than any other feat you can take besides quicken.

That being said I will say the following: versatility is op on a caster - when the opportunity cost for picking versatility is low, you should opt for it (this goes for spell lists, feats, skills, items, major class choices / enhancements, and destiny). You used to be able to get by being a 2,3,4 trick pony. Now if you really want to thrive on high skull reaper you need to exploit the full range of what's available to you with regards to the things listed above (spells, feats, etc).

+1

[slarden]

Your perception of charms is hyperbolic, from what I can see in about 100 hours playing Reaper at cap in pretty silly scenarios.
Making Charms interesting again is probably the most interesting part about Reaper---and a good way in which it revitalized the basic mechanics.
A charm only lasts 10 seconds and the DC requirements are quite high in many cases.

Thank god I have no reason to run with borelocks anymore lol.

I am guessing you don't even understand what "hyperbolic" means based on the fact that you used it in this context lol.

My experience is from running high skull reapers on my level 30s. I find it boring - same content just longer and cheesier is all.

I don't have a problem if they address it or not - but it's clearly taking advantage of AI weaknesses in my opinion. If you think it's interesting and challenging more power to you. It's simply taking advantage of AI issues to me and not all that interesting. I have no skin in the game on this as I use the glitches but don't rely on them.

I just think in general if something is working exceptionally well in reaper the devs should at least understand it and assess whether it's healthy for the game or not.

[Morroiel]

I am guessing you don't even understand what "hyperbolic" means based on the fact that you used it in this context lol.

My experience is from running high skull reapers on my level 30s. I find it boring - same content just longer and cheesier is all.

I don't have a problem if they address it or not - but it's clearly taking advantage of AI weaknesses in my opinion. If you think it's interesting and challenging more power to you. It's simply taking advantage of AI issues to me and not all that interesting. I have no skin in the game on this as I use the glitches but don't rely on them.

I just think in general if something is working exceptionally well in reaper the devs should at least understand it and assess whether it's healthy for the game or not.

Comments about reaper AI / charms / enlarge
As I stated in my post: it might not be wai that charmed mobs do such high damage (there hasn't been a dev statement on the matter as far as I'm aware - I've also heard through the grapevine that there isn't ANY intention of fixing it at the moment). However, even if it were to get fixed/nerfed, charms would still be useful for what I mentioned earlier. You can't nerf aggro management w/ enlarge + charm combo without completely scrapping the validity of one or both of these. Basically as LONG as I'm able to displace aggro onto them (which ABSOLUTELY is a working mechanic) then it will be super useful. At the VERY least it will let me get in position for holds, fears, etc.

Comments about reaper being boring
I 100% disagree about the content being boring / cheesy. It can absolutely be cheesed, and I'd argue that in most cases it is. But playing without those cheese mechanics can be insanely fun: one such way is to have the proper party setup - tank, healer, dc caster, dps, trapper, etc {you don't have to cheese safe spots if you have a tank}. I recently switched to tring / leveling reaper content and its honestly the most fun I've had in this game in a long time. Endgame stuff was pretty good too - till racial trs kneecapped endgame populations.

Turbine/SSG/etc. is VERY close to having a viable endgame in my opinion. (imo) These are the things that would take them from having an "almost endgame" to actually having an endgame:
1. Polish reaper
a) Fix bugs w/ reaper - I know of several day zero bugs that are exploitable atm.
b) Add interesting and defining abilities to reaper champs such that there planar flavor really adds an element of rng / interest to the combat
c) Add champs to raids on reaper
d) Red Named Mobs are guaranteed to be champs on reaper w/ appropriate planar flavor (non randomized, or subset randomized)
2) Continue to make a focused effort of adding coinciding content - new raid loot doesn't invalidate old raid loot, etc.
3) Serve Merge (either into 1 or 2 servers total)
4) Decrease the rate at which powercreep is added to the game (#2 takes care of items, but I'm also talking about any new systems / passes)
5) Advertise