Where have the Alts gone? Also problems for new players.

[Saekee]

I think the best way to share xp is to enable it only on maxed characters (hence at cap). Have a capped character's new xp earnings (which the character wastes anyway since he or she can't level any higher) become somehow (and in some percentage) transferable.

For example, and this is just one of many possibilities (please try to use your imagination and think of others): Call it a mentoring system in which the two toons link up and have a three-day training period in which the lower level toon gets some kind of boost. A level 30 toon will be able to train a level 2 to be better, no? That is the lore of the leveling trainera anyway right now.

This will encourage players to remain at cap while also having Alts. You transfer in some fashion the xp earned after capping. So play your endgame, run raids, while on raid timers train a lowbie alt.

[Epicstorms]

The idea to reduce XP for first life and adjusting the curve doesn't help anything for new players I think.

If you decrease the XP for newbies, they will be lost even earlier with all the new spells, skills, mechanics, etc.
If they manage to pike 1 elite/reaper run of heroic Spies, for example, they shoot up 2 levels and they happily join another group they can contribute even less in. Speeding up their leveling progress will definitely not make the power difference between new and veteran players less. It will only increase it, IMO, as they know less before they reach a certain level.


Anyways, it seems it's all a bit hopeless after reading all the replies. Good replies though mostly :P

It seems if you're a powergamer, or atleast close to it, enjoy your endless grinding before they release the next hamster wheel.
Good luck guys :P

[Hafeal]

I appreciate the discussion.

I certainly support a new starter area and I have advocated it for years. It would be good for new players as well as old.

As for the concept of shared experience, I can tell you that the devs have had this on their minds before. It is a topic that came up on the 1st PC (I think we referred to it as an "xp bank"). I think a number of factors impact major decisions like this - not the least of which is the vision of the Executive Producer. As this thread has shown, there are many issues revolving around the topic, because it would certainly have a major impact on game play.

[Uska]

Another idea, to boost Alt XP, increase money for SSG, add to player enjoyment, and help the problem of not enough folks for a group.

Allow users to buy the right to run an Alt as a hireling. If you could run your own Alt as a hireling with another character, for say 100+ SSP or some shards, you could boost the XP of the main and Alt (or two Alt's). You could do a better solo run, or fill two spots in a group.

Granted, it would take some programming to increase the Alt/Hireling AI, among other things. You would not have full access to all the Alts abilities, but the Alt would get full XP for the quest and possibly gear, either through the standard chest interface or by the main getting an extra treasure list to choose something for the Alt.

Limit it to only one Alt/Hire per character, not usable in raids, etc, etc.

Comments??

No to alts as hireling a better solution eliminate hirelings they have truly hurt grouping

[Cantor]

How about dramatically decreasing the amount of XP required on the first three lives only?

That would be both alt and new player friendly. It would be an easy on to the hamster wheel for those so inclined.

The current chart looks like this:

1st Life 1.9M
2nd Life 2.85M
3rd Life+ 3.8M

What if the chart looked like this:

1st Life 400K
2nd Life 650K
3rd Life 850k
4th Life 1.9M
5th Life 2.85M
6th Life+ 3.8M?

From my point of view the answer is that everybody who seriously tries the game will reincarnate at least once and most people will get to 36 point builds. I think retention would go up some for new players and I think existing players would create a ton more alts than they have now and even put many of those on the TR wheel.

I think it would be a win-win for the game system, the players and SSG.

I looked at this and said " hah those numbers are silly first life in two hours." Then I thought it might not be bad if a person could get through a first life one and done (or n/h and done) on ftp content only, add one free heroic heart for new characters too. Then you add xp requirements and need packs to avoid grinding. Lets someone sample the game, not just the first 8 levels.

[FranOhmsford]

Miahoo's thread

That suggestion is HORRIBLE!

It helps people with no alts who might decide to create a brand new alt with all the benefits of their main BUT does not help any of the hundreds even thousands of alts out there right now!

It's a suggestion to benefit players with one single character but yet again punishes those of us WHO ACTUALLY PLAY ALTS!

[Ellihor]

Approve the OP. Having alts suck atm, everybody knows it, tryint ot deny it is pure delusion.

Allowing us to share the fruit of the grind to alts have only positive impacts IMHO. See that LFM that need that specific role to start? No problem, log the alt.

I'm sure this change would help many veteran players in making a decision to not quit, because it would improve the gaming experience. Basically any vet at this point have to ask this himself every day he logs, that could be the last one.

[RoberttheBard]

If you want to play alts, play them. If you don't, then don't. It's really that simple. There doesn't need to be yet another carrot, yet more power creep. This "Look ma', I can rollz a brand new toon with all the bells and whistles" stuff needs to go away. If you want them, go get them. If you don't want them bad enough to go get them, then you don't really want them at all, do you?

When did this game become "competitive"? Is there some top secret leaderboard somewhere that only the "best of the best" know about? Just sayin'. There's nothing in the game that having top kills gets you that having bottom kills won't if RNG decides to bless you on a chest roll. Is that what people are claiming is "competitive", the "I got lucky on RNG and it must be because I led the kill counter"? The only place this game is competitive is in people's minds, and frankly, SSG doesn't need to change the game to accommodate that.

Every time one of these threads comes up, it's the same stuff: "I want to keep up with the Jones's, but I don't want to actually have to put in the time required, so SSG should just give it to me". They absolutely shouldn't, it should be earned the same way other people have earned it. If that's too hard, grindy, tedious, insert other catch phrase here, then it sort of calls back to the first couple of sentences in this post, doesn't it?

[mr420247]

Ok rob alts are great not but really but ok

back it up prove it go run some r10s n r5 raids on alts with videos

And show us how great they are for reaper

[Enoach]

Ok rob alts are great not but really but ok

back it up prove it go run some r10s n r5 raids on alts with videos

And show us how great they are for reaper

So we are to assume you can do this on your main?

I have six characters I've been working on since '06 myself. Sure I've more then likely put much more time into these characters then players that started after me have put into their main characters but that has more to do with; being here awhile and treating each as a different entity.

If you approach DDO as each character is actually one then sharing XP makes sense. But if you approach DDO similar to how I do where each character is its own entity (this comes from my PnP days most likely) then the sharing of XP can ruin the journey.

[mr420247]

That wasn't the point

Its not about power creep its about using alts

to help new players and guildies

but now why bother you cant get r xp on you main doing that

So end games dead alts are dead new players are dead everywhere

Really how are any of these things good things

[SpartanKiller13]

How about dramatically decreasing the amount of XP required on the first three lives only?

That would be both alt and new player friendly. It would be an easy on to the hamster wheel for those so inclined.

What if the chart looked like this:

1st Life 400K
2nd Life 650K
3rd Life 850k
4th Life 1.9M
5th Life 2.85M
6th Life+ 3.8M?

+1 for this. I do think that the XP curve should start a little higher than shown above (600k/800k/1m?), but either way this would help a lot especially introducing F2P to the game. Might be slightly problematic for maintaining a long-term group (even a 3rd life @850k requires only 22% of a 6th life) but that's manageable.

Also maybe some sort of epic starting area (epic Korthos anyone?) explaining how/why to TR (full explanation at an NPC or something). And yes, I agree that the current starting area needs some work.

[mr420247]

They should just let new players double up on the trs

Racial n heroic it will still take them years of trs farming xp pots n ottos

To catch up so win win for everyone

[unbongwah]

Well if they squeeze them till they leave maybe Unbongwah will get his way.

Are you trying to make DDO more accessible for newer / casual players; or are you trying to reduce the grindiness of playing alts?

In other words: do you want to flatten the power curve to reduce the disparity between toons; or do you want to make the power curve easier to climb? Because those are not the same goals; if anything, they're at odds with each other. From the thread title, I thought you wanted the former; but from reading the discussion, it appears you want the latter. I'm fine either way, I just want to know what the parameters for the discussion are so we're not just yelling at cross-purposes.

For as long as I've been playing DDO, you've always had to choose between "broad & shallow" or "narrow & deep." I.e., you could chose to focus all your gametime on a few characters to make them as powerful as possible; or you could chose to spread your gametime among multiple alts, with the understanding they would always be behind the power curve. That dichotomy has just been exacerbated over the years, particularly with all the new forms of reincarnation added since Update 20.

For soloers this doesn't matter so much; you adjust your gameplay until you find just the right risk/reward level for yourself. And again, the power disparity would be fine if DDO had a large enough customer base to cater to players at all different levels of power creep and player skill. [Or maybe we just need more sophisticated matchmaking tools than the LFM panel, IDK.] But the reality is if you want to PUG, you better be up to snuff for Elite / Reaper or you better be willing to put up your own Normal/Hard LFMs and wait a good while for them to fill. Bravery Bonus has been both a boon and a bane for DDO, but even without it I think a lot of vets would run only Elites, particularly for those once-n-done quests you do for first-time XP bonuses and maybe Favor.

[RoberttheBard]

That wasn't the point

Its not about power creep its about using alts

to help new players and guildies

but now why bother you cant get r xp on you main doing that

So end games dead alts are dead new players are dead everywhere

Really how are any of these things good things

What new players are running R10? Really, how is "giving it away" a good thing? It's only good for the people that aren't motivated to go get it on their alts, for everyone else, it's "but they have it, so should I".

[Astoroth]

1. Alts are a zero sum game, in many ways. Either you get XP on your main, or on your alt. BTA gear is not a zero sum game, but most stuff is. Tomes are a zero sum game. Raid gear is a zero sum game. Destiny, Epic, Reaper, Cannith Crafting, Iconic, Heroic, and Racial experience are all a zero sum game. Like it or not you are losing min/maxers.

2. Alts can be a pretty large time and/or monetary investment.


I’m all for making our whales feel exceedingly special, important, and loved, but making new players have a chance at competitiveness without charging them $300 is very important. Its tied up with the issues of having multiple characters as well.

The length of the grind for a Solar Whale should be infinite, but the New Guy (or toon) should feel competitive.

Making some forms of experience transferable, or shared, between toons would be helpful to the community as a whole. Make it a premium service, but reduce the height of that pay-wall a bit. I don’t want to spend $300 just to make a decently competitive toon without any gear. It’s too high. You just gave yourselves a new past-life system. It’s time to ease up the old one since most of us have already done it, and new players would benefit. XP needs to be more like loot. Some of it needs to be BTA to encourage the use of multiple characters.

I am with you on most of it, but cannith crafting exp? All the stuff you make now is bta anyway. Alts are and weer expensive, when you buy character slots and tomes and everything else for them, that play style shouldn't have been marginalized so much as it has over the past few years.

Reaper shouldn't have been a continuation of bravery bonus, it should NOT be worth 45% more exp that's the real problem always forcing players into the hardest difficulty to try to shorten what has become a burdensome grind. People that say playing alts is still valid just aren't looking at the exp divide realistically. This is a game not a job, the buy in for new characters and alts needs to be reasonable. If you're going to force players into the hardest difficulty. If not then you need to make reaper less rewarding in regards to exp, so people aren't forced into it as the only option to this massive grind.

Also add making an epic tr cost 6m exp the same as a destiny sphere, and allow it whenever you have a full sphere and level 20 or higher.

[mr420247]

Wasn't talking about new players in the first post

was talking to you directly cause you say its all power creep

then prove it show us some videos of your amazing alts in action

Fact its alot more challenging to run r3-5s on alts with new players

then soloing roflstomping them on 3x everything mains how is that power creep

[RoberttheBard]

Wasn't talking about new players in the first post

was talking to you directly cause you say its all power creep

then prove it show us some videos of your amazing alts in action

I've got a better idea:

Explain how this is good for new players, since they will get absolutely 0 out of it. It does absolutely nothing for someone that doesn't have a triple completionist already. While we're on the subject of vids, where are yours? Oh, and where are my posts indicating that I'm running R10 at all, let alone on alts? You see, I run with people that are actively working on their toons, be they alts, or mains. They're not here demanding that the game accommodate their lack of motivation to get the past lives they want on a build.

So this whole fiasco is simply "I want my alts to be equal to my main, but if I say it'll help new players, surely nobody will get wise to the fact that it won't help them at all". What I'm not going to do is spend a lot of time enabling your strawman: Show me how this isn't all about epeen envy.

[mr420247]

So allowing you to double up on your trs is a bad thing

while you are working on your toon you would not like the option

of getting a race tr and a heroic tr to help you and your friends get reaper ready

That is a bad thing here's the alt thing say you and your friends want to run r5s but no way can you do it

without a great healbot so 1 guy goes ok ill roll an iconic and do it thats teamwork alt action in progress

how is that not helping you and your friends

[RoberttheBard]

So allowing you to double up on your trs is a bad thing

while you are working on your toon you would not like the option

of getting a race tr and a heroic tr to help you and your friends get reaper ready

That is a bad thing here's the alt thing say you and your friends want to run r5s but no way can you do it

without a great healbot so 1 guy goes ok ill roll an iconic and do it thats teamwork alt action in progress

how is that not helping you and your friends

This happens in our guild on a regular basis, and guess what: We didn't need SSG to pile on the past lives. I have alts that were specifically rolled up to play in a group that needed a trapper, or some more dps, or that just wanted me to come hang out, or, even funnier, to run with my TR train when I got slightly ahead of them, way back in the day. None of which involved SSG handing me past lives, reaper xp, which didn't even exist, crafting xp, EDs, Heroic/iconic/epic TR benefits. I rolled a toon, and commenced to playing. Every time I think it's time to clean out the alt shed, a task that means going through 28 characters, someone pipes up in guild that they need help with a quest, and boom, I'm on one of those alts I was about to delete. So again, your argument isn't carried by the actual game, just by the "but I need it and don't want to work for it" attitude prevalent in these threads.