Where have the Alts gone? Also problems for new players.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

Why are Alts good?
1. Alts increase how easy it is to get a group with an LFM or private channel. Players have access to a larger level range, more of the game, and more people.

... the population is even lower right now as people are not filling several spots at several levels.

2. Alts allow people to experience the build diversity that DDO offers in spades. We have probably the most complex, interesting, silly character creation on the internet. Path of Exile gets an honorable mention, as do a few others, but really, we’re dominating this. It’s our strength, so stressing it is good. Alts increase immersion, and enjoyment of the game.

There are 668,000 posts in the builds section. That’s about ½ the size of the General Discussion section. People love builds here.

3. Our overlords charge a decent amount of money for the privilege to skip a life, with a box, or speed it up with a pot. We all know that incentivizing Alts incentivizes consumption.

Why don’t many people have alts?
1. Alts are a zero sum game, in many ways. Either you get XP on your main, or on your alt. BTA gear is not a zero sum game, but most stuff is. Tomes are a zero sum game. Raid gear is a zero sum game. Destiny, Epic, Reaper, Cannith Crafting, Iconic, Heroic, and Racial experience are all a zero sum game. Like it or not you are losing min/maxers.

Raid runes were an awesome way to incentivize raiding across several characters. The affect it had was largely positive on incentivizing alts. Shroud gets a big +1 as well. This is a perfect example of something that’s not a zero sum game.

2. Alts can be a pretty large time and/or monetary investment.

600 DP, for 1 tab of inventory or bank space
5000 DP, for +6 Tome of Supreme Ability
1600 DP, for Greater Tome of Learning
1300 DP, for Greater Tome of Epic Learning
1000 DP, for +2 Tome of Fate
500 DP, for a Large Cookie Jar

These are the nice things you’ll want if you wanna sink some real time into a toon. That’s about 10,000 DDO points, or $100. Do you need all that stuff? No absolutely not. I’m just putting it into perspective for people who get serious about a character. Not counting boxes, xp pots, slayer pots, etc. SSG needs our money for their services, but can’t we monetize the game without putting a massive premium to “keep up with the Jones?” I’m all for making our whales feel exceedingly special, important, and loved, but making new players have a chance at competitiveness without charging them $300 is very important. Its tied up with the issues of having multiple characters as well.

Moving Towards a Solution, TL;DR to Here
SSG makes money on experience. If experience were shared, then they would be losing out on potential profits. If people feel that there’s a $300 pay wall combined with a broken who panel in Korthos then WHY WOULD THEY STAY? As a community, we benefit from making experience less important for new players and characters. Do we want to be another failed Daybreak Games endeavor, or do we want to be the second most steady horse behind Everquest?

The more open the game is to its real content, i.e., character creation, the less money the devs make on it. The price of boxes has to stay high. The price of tomes and other QOL things so that your friends aren’t constantly out leveling you should probably drop. The length of the grind for a Solar Whale should be infinite, but the New Guy (or toon) should feel competitive.

Making some forms of experience transferable, or shared, between toons would be helpful to the community as a whole. Make it a premium service, but reduce the height of that pay-wall a bit. I don’t want to spend $300 just to make a decently competitive toon without any gear. It’s too high. You just gave yourselves a new past-life system. It’s time to ease up the old one since most of us have already done it, and new players would benefit. XP needs to be more like loot. Some of it needs to be BTA to encourage the use of multiple characters.

Spaghetti on the Wall
1. Make Cannith Crafting XP shared on an account. Create a new starter area for the expansion and streamline the new player experience. Fix the WHO panel or demolish it into something else. Reduce the cost of ability Tomes, but not learning Tomes. Generally reduce monetization of events that have not received developer influence in over 3 years.
2. Next year allow “some” heroic past-life sharing or trading on an account. It speeds up the grind for a new player and does not affect the new grind for an old player. Watering down old things is good.
3. The year after allow some epic past-life sharing.
4. Some indefinite time later allow some other form of XP sharing as you introduce more forms of XP.

[DrowsworD]

Another idea, to boost Alt XP, increase money for SSG, add to player enjoyment, and help the problem of not enough folks for a group.

Allow users to buy the right to run an Alt as a hireling. If you could run your own Alt as a hireling with another character, for say 100+ SSP or some shards, you could boost the XP of the main and Alt (or two Alt's). You could do a better solo run, or fill two spots in a group.

Granted, it would take some programming to increase the Alt/Hireling AI, among other things. You would not have full access to all the Alts abilities, but the Alt would get full XP for the quest and possibly gear, either through the standard chest interface or by the main getting an extra treasure list to choose something for the Alt.

Limit it to only one Alt/Hire per character, not usable in raids, etc, etc.

Comments??

[SerPounce]

If you can get past the idea that you need to have everything maxed on every toon then running alts can be plenty fun. In fact I think if some of the triple/triple types out there rolled up an alt from time to time they'd realize it can be a lot of fun to play an alt BECAUSE they don't have everything max out.

[Epicstorms]

If you can get past the idea that you need to have everything maxed on every toon then running alts can be plenty fun. In fact I think if some of the triple/triple types out there rolled up an alt from time to time they'd realize it can be a lot of fun to play an alt BECAUSE they don't have everything max out.

Understandable, and I understand that you enjoy that.

But I join the people that are complaining lately. Part of my fun was to aim for a goal, achieve a certain amount of power before I get back into that endgame. But the recent powercreep hamster wheels are too much.
If you go for it, enjoy your huge grind.
If you don't go for it, you lose out on quite some power (and for people like me that means you enjoy the game less). Also, enjoy sitting around at a certain level and wait for players (of which most are playing solely 1 toon nowadays and probably somewhere between 1-20) :P

[Wonedream]

If you can get past the idea that you need to have everything maxed on every toon then running alts can be plenty fun. In fact I think if some of the triple/triple types out there rolled up an alt from time to time they'd realize it can be a lot of fun to play an alt BECAUSE they don't have everything max out.

Yes, I have found a way to justify keeping my alts and having fun with them. But to invest money in them... no fricking way because what is the point when without all those PLs they still come far behind? Forget it, never gonna happen in a trillion zillion years. Ill run them one time up to level 30 on casual... poser style. That is what they deserve, and that is how I will enjoy abusing their existence, playing with the gear I never used, and then parking em as mules.

If... they didn't have to overcome all this time grind PLs and could close enough to what a TRd PLd toon is, then I WOULD invest MONEY into tombs and other things, and run em more then once. But, as it is now, no, I got enough to do with 100+ freaking TRs totaled, something that can take a womping chunk of life away itself to get, and what do I get for it... an awesome toon that makes the alts seem boring to use in comparison. But because I dont want to spend forever, I have worked out accelerated paths so I dont even have to think about what I am doing next ever, just follow the path and note when I can run past trash and when not.

The path overall is so freaking long that yes, I will race to catch up, and prefer to have one toon with it all over a collection of posers that never live up to the greatest challenges. In order to facilitate getting to the point where I can take on the challenges and kick butt as best as possible, I am avoiding challenge as much as possible since the heavy long grindy path would take two or three times longer... which adds up to many years... if I get sucked into reaper stuff I cant handle yet.

I got 7 TRs on my main... a few on my alts, and have made about 100 alts reach level 20. Now I feel that was a huge waste of time seeing how this game has changed, and wont waste any time on alts ever again as long as my main has something to do, and TRing to get. They are a collection of experiences, and I have gained a lot of knowledge, but Id have both that knowledge and an awesome toon if I instead TRd my main the entire time. What a waste of time.

I WARN ALL NEW PLAYERS ABOUT THIS NOW!

It is only fair and decent they get warned. I wish I had listened to the warnings some gave me a while ago, but it was soft pressed and I was stubborn. Live and learn.

I think ill go check on my Main now :P

[unbongwah]

You're misusing "zero-sum game," but in general I agree that the combination of power creep, "pay-to-win" elements, and difficulty scaling (now with Reaper Mode for extra party wipes!) "encourages" players to focus on minmaxing a single toon rather than having a diverse mix of alts. In particular, good point about the combination of BtA items / ingredients (like the old epic seals) and the absence of raid timers encouraged people to have multiple toons they could use to run raids back-to-back.

That said, I don't think XP sharing or more BtA items really addresses the social issues: namely some people have way the hell more time & resources to spend on DDO than others. Which would be fine, except DDO's relatively small player base (or at least the PUGing scene) is dominated by vets who insist on running quests on the highest difficulty available. It's tough enough for newer or more casual players to keep up in Elite runs, good luck not getting one-shotted every time you go into Reaper Mode. You can just solo DDO, of course, but curiously some people insist that an MMO means you ought to be able to play with other players if you want...and not just in static groups.

IMO, the only way to fix the power disparity between those at the top and those at the bottom is to flatten the power curve entirely so more casual players don't feel locked out of most content. But good luck doing that without the vets screaming bloody murder about how they've been nerfed-by-proxy and all their time was wasted and LOL WHY NOT JUST HAVE A "CLICK TO WIN" BUTTON etc.

[slarden]

That said, I don't think XP sharing or more BtA items really addresses the social issues: namely some people have way the hell more time & resources to spend on DDO than others. Which would be fine, except DDO's relatively small player base (or at least the PUGing scene) is dominated by vets who insist on running quests on the highest difficulty available. It's tough enough for newer or more casual players to keep up in Elite runs, good luck not getting one-shotted every time you go into Reaper Mode. You can just solo DDO, of course, but curiously some people insist that an MMO means you ought to be able to play with other players if you want...and not just in static groups.

IMO, the only way to fix the power disparity between those at the top and those at the bottom is to flatten the power curve entirely so more casual players don't feel locked out of most content. But good luck doing that without the vets screaming bloody murder about how they've been nerfed-by-proxy and all their time was wasted and LOL WHY NOT JUST HAVE A "CLICK TO WIN" BUTTON etc.

Totally agree. The devs had a chance to implement the relative flat power curve with reaper but failed. The focus of the game at this point appears to be squeezing as much as possible out of the vets that want a max character.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

Well if they squeeze them till they leave maybe Unbongwah will get his way.

[unbongwah]

Well if they squeeze them till they leave maybe Unbongwah will get his way.

Are you trying to make DDO more accessible for newer / casual players; or are you trying to reduce the grindiness of playing alts?

In other words: do you want to flatten the power curve to reduce the disparity between toons; or do you want to make the power curve easier to climb? Because those are not the same goals; if anything, they're at odds with each other. From the thread title, I thought you wanted the former; but from reading the discussion, it appears you want the latter. I'm fine either way, I just want to know what the parameters for the discussion are so we're not just yelling at cross-purposes.

For as long as I've been playing DDO, you've always had to choose between "broad & shallow" or "narrow & deep." I.e., you could chose to focus all your gametime on a few characters to make them as powerful as possible; or you could chose to spread your gametime among multiple alts, with the understanding they would always be behind the power curve. That dichotomy has just been exacerbated over the years, particularly with all the new forms of reincarnation added since Update 20.

For soloers this doesn't matter so much; you adjust your gameplay until you find just the right risk/reward level for yourself. And again, the power disparity would be fine if DDO had a large enough customer base to cater to players at all different levels of power creep and player skill. [Or maybe we just need more sophisticated matchmaking tools than the LFM panel, IDK.] But the reality is if you want to PUG, you better be up to snuff for Elite / Reaper or you better be willing to put up your own Normal/Hard LFMs and wait a good while for them to fill. Bravery Bonus has been both a boon and a bane for DDO, but even without it I think a lot of vets would run only Elites, particularly for those once-n-done quests you do for first-time XP bonuses and maybe Favor.

[Epicstorms]

I agree with most of the posts above, but I do think that sharing XP will address most issues.

People will play multiple toons again at several level ranges
30 lifes for racial PLs, even if account shared, is really plenty for current players as a hamster wheel.

It is only normal for new players to have a learning curve and that you 'need' to play several lifes before you have a good toon. You can obtain quite some 'low hanging fruit' pretty fast if you're a new player. For example +1 DC from wiz PL for a caster, is a huge bonus and easy to obtain.

[SerPounce]

IMO, the only way to fix the power disparity between those at the top and those at the bottom is to flatten the power curve entirely so more casual players don't feel locked out of most content. But good luck doing that without the vets screaming bloody murder about how they've been nerfed-by-proxy and all their time was wasted and LOL WHY NOT JUST HAVE A "CLICK TO WIN" BUTTON etc.

Of course they're bellyaching now about how there's not enough reward to run "HIGH SKULL!!! reaper." It kills them that there's filthy casuals out there running r3 and getting decent xp. Some people are just going to throw a tantrum no matter what.

But aside from that I think you guys are really overstating how much grind is "needed." If you use a respectable build with cannith crafted gear and understand the basics of how your toon and the game works you can hang just fine in 90% of LFMs. And the other 10% are frankly better avoided even if you can keep up with them.

The idea that you "need" to have all this grindy stuff is mostly in people's heads.

[Laggin]

I have 22 character slots. Before reincarnating they each were a character. Most were at level cap, but I would switch around depending on what the guild/party needed. I had my favorites they were usually better.

I played this game for so long at max xp, it was about getting gear, helping guildies.

All the raid loot I passed on because why would my cleric Laggin need SOS? Who knew.

If you want to play alts, then play alts. I don't understand you asking the game to give you incentive to play alts.

[Enoach]

I play different characters (I have 6) because I want to. Sure I could get more power if I played only one. But for me it is not fun. Fun for me is being able to decide a type and even a level range to play in for that session. Or being able to switch to group with friends/guildmates.

But why I don't see the need to consolidate all this to make Alt characters "worth it" is because I see all of these characters as different entities each deserving of their own journey through DDO.

[KoobTheProud]

How about dramatically decreasing the amount of XP required on the first three lives only?

That would be both alt and new player friendly. It would be an easy on to the hamster wheel for those so inclined.

The current chart looks like this:

1st Life 1.9M
2nd Life 2.85M
3rd Life+ 3.8M

What if the chart looked like this:

1st Life 400K
2nd Life 650K
3rd Life 850k
4th Life 1.9M
5th Life 2.85M
6th Life+ 3.8M?

From my point of view the answer is that everybody who seriously tries the game will reincarnate at least once and most people will get to 36 point builds. I think retention would go up some for new players and I think existing players would create a ton more alts than they have now and even put many of those on the TR wheel.

I think it would be a win-win for the game system, the players and SSG.

[Vish]

When I came back to the game a year and a half ago,
A lot had changed
Mainly past lives
Before, I had a dozen alts of all different makes
But I soon realized that if I wanted a super toon,
I would have to play one
So I choose Kil, my most iconic name
Since then I have benn putting on epic lives,
And slowly working through the classes
It's the only way to achieve completionist in a short time,
Play one character

Now I still got a couple others
Vish, my 30 cleric, has 3 cleric pl
36 pt build with one epic pl
But I stuck +6 tomes on him
And slaver gear,
And he's kicking ass
I'll camp him at 30 while I tr Kil
That's the method I use

Everything generally seems to be in accord
I would prefer a game where one person runs one toon
And you get to know them by that name
It makes them legendary
And so much easier to recognize consistently
It breaks the nets anonymity problem
Especially if they talk
Then it's real person running great toon time
Otherwise, you never know...

And about xp,
I think things are fine
The separation drives people to play only one,
If they want to max it out
And believe me, it makes a difference
And opens up lots of options
And let's you see the game at the top tier

I'm only about half way to completionist
Closer to epic completionist
And I really see the difference
Especially now in reaper
Reaper points per toon
That should keep us 1-3 for awhile
But there are some monsters roaming out there now

Ya and about new player
I'm kinda scared if there is such a thing
They gotta reap right off the bat in pugs mostly,
I suggest they get guided pronto
Lots of casuals running together
And I know elite is still being done
And I do see occasional lfm for normal
So they're trying
But we just dont got the population...
Seems after reaper,
Lots disappeared.

[Uska]

Another idea, to boost Alt XP, increase money for SSG, add to player enjoyment, and help the problem of not enough folks for a group.

Allow users to buy the right to run an Alt as a hireling. If you could run your own Alt as a hireling with another character, for say 100+ SSP or some shards, you could boost the XP of the main and Alt (or two Alt's). You could do a better solo run, or fill two spots in a group.

Granted, it would take some programming to increase the Alt/Hireling AI, among other things. You would not have full access to all the Alts abilities, but the Alt would get full XP for the quest and possibly gear, either through the standard chest interface or by the main getting an extra treasure list to choose something for the Alt.

Limit it to only one Alt/Hire per character, not usable in raids, etc, etc.

Comments??

No to alts as hireling a better solution eliminate hirelings they have truly hurt grouping

[SpartanKiller13]

Alts can be a pretty large time and/or monetary investment:

600 DP, for 1 tab of inventory or bank space
5000 DP, for +6 Tome of Supreme Ability
1600 DP, for Greater Tome of Learning
1300 DP, for Greater Tome of Epic Learning
1000 DP, for +2 Tome of Fate
500 DP, for a Large Cookie Jar

These are the nice things you’ll want if you wanna sink some real time into a toon. That’s about 10,000 DDO points, or $100. Do you need all that stuff? No absolutely not.

Personally speaking, on my main character I have both Greater Tomes (bought on sale) and that's it. My opinion is that buying ability tomes is cheesing the system, and they're pretty available and not really necessary to be competitive (even for a super min-maxer 50 vs 56 in a stat is pretty small) outside of a few builds (TWF paladin/cleric or something). I won't fault you for buying them, but it doesn't seem "required" to me.

Do you really need a Cookie Jar per character? I get by somehow without even one on my entire account. Or a Fate Tome, although I might pick one up if they go on sale. Or bank/inventory pages for that matter.

I bought shared bank space 1, shared plat 2, and shared crafting 2 (mostly on sale). That honestly covers most of my bank space needs, and is fully usable across my alts (in fact is a huge QoL upgrade for them). 100% would recommend, even for those who barely use alts.

From my end, the full requirements to make a character as viable as my main account cost 2900 (unless you get a sale on tomes). In fact, MotU Collectors edition ($20 on Black Friday sale, but 2k DP = ~free) will save you 1k DP per alt (free lesser xp tome on everyone) as well as giving one Greater tome per server and a bunch of other free things. With that, you're down to 1900 DP per alt, which is a competitive $20 to bring your character up to top-tier.

Spaghetti on the Wall:
1. Make Cannith Crafting XP shared on an account. Create a new starter area for the expansion and streamline the new player experience. Fix the WHO panel or demolish it into something else. Reduce the cost of ability Tomes, but not learning Tomes. Generally reduce monetization of events that have not received developer influence in over 3 years.
2. Next year allow “some” heroic past-life sharing or trading on an account. It speeds up the grind for a new player and does not affect the new grind for an old player. Watering down old things is good.
3. The year after allow some epic past-life sharing.
4. Some indefinite time later allow some other form of XP sharing as you introduce more forms of XP.

*Numbers not correlated*

1. I would agree to shared Cannith Crafting XP per server, but not per account. With Shared Crafting Storage this is a pure QoL upgrade, but if you make it account-wide you remove the need to invest the effort at least once/server as it currently stands.
2. I would argue more for updating Korthos than creating a new area entirely.
3. Ability Tomes are not requisite to be competitive. Why should they be cheap? People who -need- them will spend the money either way. People who don't will either not worry, or get them in-game via favor or plat or shards or -heaven forbid- actual questing.
4. When you say "some" do you mean like if you get all three of a given HPL on any character all your characters on that server benefit from +1 of that HPL (max 3 still obviously) or what? Otherwise I agree, making old things more available makes them more attainable/viable/interesting.
5. How would XP sharing work? If you have 5% shared xp, and your main goes across a single HPL, any lvl 1 will suddenly be a lvl 7? Seems almost disastrous outside of epic levels where gearing is easier and EPLs don't change your build much.

[SirValentine]

You do a good idea of identifying the problem. I'm not sure I agree with most of your solutions, but:

Make Cannith Crafting XP shared on an account.

That's so obvious and non-controversial I have no idea why they didn't just do that. I mean, they completely removed BTC crafting! It's all BTA! Well, except the XP. ***?

[Astoroth]

1. Alts are a zero sum game, in many ways. Either you get XP on your main, or on your alt. BTA gear is not a zero sum game, but most stuff is. Tomes are a zero sum game. Raid gear is a zero sum game. Destiny, Epic, Reaper, Cannith Crafting, Iconic, Heroic, and Racial experience are all a zero sum game. Like it or not you are losing min/maxers.

2. Alts can be a pretty large time and/or monetary investment.


I’m all for making our whales feel exceedingly special, important, and loved, but making new players have a chance at competitiveness without charging them $300 is very important. Its tied up with the issues of having multiple characters as well.

The length of the grind for a Solar Whale should be infinite, but the New Guy (or toon) should feel competitive.

Making some forms of experience transferable, or shared, between toons would be helpful to the community as a whole. Make it a premium service, but reduce the height of that pay-wall a bit. I don’t want to spend $300 just to make a decently competitive toon without any gear. It’s too high. You just gave yourselves a new past-life system. It’s time to ease up the old one since most of us have already done it, and new players would benefit. XP needs to be more like loot. Some of it needs to be BTA to encourage the use of multiple characters.

I am with you on most of it, but cannith crafting exp? All the stuff you make now is bta anyway. Alts are and weer expensive, when you buy character slots and tomes and everything else for them, that play style shouldn't have been marginalized so much as it has over the past few years.

Reaper shouldn't have been a continuation of bravery bonus, it should NOT be worth 45% more exp that's the real problem always forcing players into the hardest difficulty to try to shorten what has become a burdensome grind. People that say playing alts is still valid just aren't looking at the exp divide realistically. This is a game not a job, the buy in for new characters and alts needs to be reasonable. If you're going to force players into the hardest difficulty. If not then you need to make reaper less rewarding in regards to exp, so people aren't forced into it as the only option to this massive grind.

Also add making an epic tr cost 6m exp the same as a destiny sphere, and allow it whenever you have a full sphere and level 20 or higher.

[mr420247]

Wasn't talking about new players in the first post

was talking to you directly cause you say its all power creep

then prove it show us some videos of your amazing alts in action

Fact its alot more challenging to run r3-5s on alts with new players

then soloing roflstomping them on 3x everything mains how is that power creep