Where have the Alts gone? Also problems for new players.

[nokowi]

No no, that's not what I'm saying, lol. I have every past life on one toon and about half of the past lives on 3. (Total I'm at 2.5X everything.) I have alts. I don't have problems running them. You are misunderstanding me...

...I'd like to have more, but I'm not will to take the massive pay and grind wall to let myself have 5 toons.



You're assuming that casuals don't spend money...
...well you could be right. I don't have access to the figures, but from what I've seen I think that someone playing 12 hours a week probably spends about the same as someone spending 30 hours a week. Hell I knew a whale who didn't even play the game. He bought like 30 boxes and then started handing them away when he got bored of the game. He didn't have time in RL and kept thinking he'd come back and play when he had time.

He ended up not having time.

I think we should design the game so that everyone is happy---I'm not trying to boil anything down to a common denominator.
I'm making recommendations based on what I observe in game.

Player $$'s being equal, players that play 30 hours a week are more valuable, because they provide the LFM's, grouping, interaction that you said was so valuable earlier.

The same portion of the game can not be designed so everyone is happy. That's impossible when players have different preferences. If your buddy bought 30 boxes, and got bored while skipping content and playing 12 hours a week, then this game was obviously not designed around that person. A better play experience is certainly the solution, not some change in reward structure (they had rewards they were not even using and giving away).

You could ask for a special server (non-transferable) where it takes 100,000 XP to reach 20. It would be comical as players advance faster than they can learn their own abilities. That server would need to be continually made easier in every way, and would quickly need to become a completely separate game from DDO. The needed changes for these players would not stop at XP or RXP rewards.

[nokowi]

you mean one of our best players isn't addicted to a hamster wheel?

Whaaaaaaaat?

Whaaaaaaat?

In other words, you don't need all these past life rewards to play the game effectively.

You should have told your buddy this before they bought 30 Otto's boxes.

[Avantasian]

Here is where you reveal your ignorance of what it takes to become 3x completionist.

You are off by a factor of 10.

20 hours heroic life (14x3)=42x20=840 hours
15 hours epic life (12x3)=36x15=540 hours
20 hours iconic life (5x3)=15x20=300 hours

1680 hours/60 = 28 weeks

lol. Yeah, because that is representative.
280 weeks is a far better estimate of what people are actually getting, but that probably only catches half the population at best.

[nokowi]

lol. Yeah, because that is representative.
280 weeks is a far better estimate of what people are actually getting, but that probably only catches half the population at best.

Are we talking about the players that play reaper?

I'm fine with 280 weeks for everything, and it matches my numbers if you play 12-15 hours a week.

Do you honestly believe any toon needs every past life reward?

I put the number at 1/4 to 1/8th of useful lives which gets us back to a year or less for a top tier toon.

You conveniently ignored that part of my post, where I said players could have many great toons.


Sam decided to go for everything, and as a result can't maintain 5 toons. That was his/her decision.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

In other words, you don't need all these past life rewards to play the game effectively.

You should have told your buddy this before they bought 30 Otto's boxes.

man you can be kinda smarmy
will leave it alone, obviously you don't want there to be a problem for people, even though you're getting nothing but flack.

[nokowi]

man you can be kinda smarmy
will leave it alone, obviously you don't want there to be a problem for people, even though you're getting nothing but flack.

When players have different preferences, there will always be a "problem".

If you can't address my comments, it would be because your solution causes more problems that you simply want to ignore.

Your opinion obviously does not make everyone happy, which was your stated goal.

Come up with a better opinion. My comments would be helpful to you if you chose to listen to them.

I didn't say any of the opinions expressed were invalid, just the proposed solutions.

[Careall]

Permadeath ("Reaper") server: Leave the dungeon via the Death Release window, and poof <Warning! This action will delete your character permanently! Are you absolutely sure? [Yes] [No]">!
DC'ing after dying in a dungeon and your toon is deleted. You've been warned!
Dying in public areas is unchanged.

I'll bet we'll see a few group requests asking for rescue missions.
I'll bet clerics really become a thing again.
I'll bet Reaper mode becomes... well... I don't want to think about that. Mommy!
Achievements like 3x completionist actually mean something. No doubt such achievements will be done, but - respect! I bow in your presence!

I'd play. No hamster wheel. Probably lots of groups if other folks want to play on that server too.

SSG makes a ton of money selling cakes.
SSG makes less money selling other items that are lost on permadeath.

[Avantasian]

Are we talking about the players that play reaper?

I'm fine with 280 weeks for everything, and it matches my numbers if you play 12-15 hours a week.

I think the players that don't, or in a reasonable amount of time will, play reaper can be counted on one hand.

Your number was 1680 hours for 3x completionist. That's huge amount of time spent in the game, and it's not even close to some sort of average. Double it and we are talking. Add a atleast 1-2 thousand hours more for racial PLs and reaper. Lets call it a total of 4000 hours to "complete" a character. And still, with that ludricrus number you argue against making any of it account wide because people will run out of things to do. Really? Is it too much of an easy button to not have to reach the magic number of 10000 hours to have 2.5 characters you can say are complete?
There is no merit to it at all, the numbers speak for themselves.

Do you honestly believe any toon needs every past life reward?

No, but that is entierly and utterly irrelevant. I don't think anyone believes that any toon needs every past life reward, yet somehow people are still gathering them. Why is that, you think?

[Astoroth]

Designing the game around those that don't know how to play the game and play 12 hours a week without running the hamster wheel, and without spending money is what would be crazy. Players at this level don't support the game enough to justify losing those that play more.

You want casual players to have multiple toons with everything while playing less time and less efficiently than others. Sorry, this would be terrible design.

Well that's how the game used to be, casual players with tons of alts. You get to level 10, 12, 14, 16, 20; w/e it was at the time there was nothing else to do but make more alts casual or not. Any old player is going to have a lot of alts and character slots, and more than likely spent real money on all of them. Its easy for newer players to casually insist that the way they are playing the game should be the only way to play it at the exclusion of other play styles and how the game has historically been.

I think you are basically ignoring the flip side of the guy that gets a tr in a week or less. He also makes way more free tp than the casual player is is less likely to spend real money on the game because of that. That and the casual player uses less server resources so any money he does spend is way more valuable in comparison. Driving away your best customers(casuals) is lunacy.

[KoobTheProud]

That's so stupidly off I don't know where to begin.

I mean, sure, it's possible for someone to TR in 20 hours. And, yes, there's maybe even a few people who do that.

But for you to think that's normal or expected... For you to think a new player can do that, and knock out triple-triple-completionist in weeks... For you think that most people who are playing a game, for fun, would ever even want to do that...



Yes, and I therefore suspect the devs know normal people don't TR every 20 hours.

You're going down the rabbit hole. Don't go there. It's dark and scary and the rabbit bites. Just warning ya. :P

My very informal 2 person poll, including Qhualor and myself, came up with 90 hours for an unadjusted Heroic past life for a casual player who plays a lot. This happened unexpectedly when I mentioned 6 weeks at 15 hours a week as my pace and he came back with 75 hours but mentioned that he always ran a 20% XP pot. Eerie, no?

[nokowi]

I think the players that don't, or in a reasonable amount of time will, play reaper can be counted on one hand.

Cordo stated that less than 50% of players ever played elite. I doubt those on normal/hard moved on the reaper.

When your opinion trumps those with data, you are simply being irrational.

Your number was 1680 hours for 3x completionist. That's huge amount of time spent in the game, and it's not even close to some sort of average. Double it and we are talking. Add a atleast 1-2 thousand hours more for racial PLs and reaper. Lets call it a total of 4000 hours to "complete" a character. And still, with that ludricrus number you argue against making any of it account wide because people will run out of things to do. Really? Is it too much of an easy button to not have to reach the magic number of 10000 hours to have 2.5 characters you can say are complete?
There is no merit to it at all, the numbers speak for themselves.

I thought we agreed you don't need every life, so those numbers are meaningless to further discussion. Going back to needing everything after saying you don't is not productive.

No, but that is entierly and utterly irrelevant. I don't think anyone believes that any toon needs every past life reward, yet somehow people are still gathering them. Why is that, you think?

DDO players mistakenly believe they can win DDO or that there will be something to do when they get everything.

When they can't do so at their level of engagement (12 hours a week while not trying to TR), they demand the game be changed so they can win.

I tell every player that is close to 3x completionist to not bother.

Well, I can only read so much BS.

It is tough to discuss rationally when your position is weak. If you had a strong position, any BS would be easily removed from the discussion.

If you found me diverting the thread, making personal attacks, etc, you could call BS.

Unfortunately it is your statements that are weak.

Find a specific statement that is BS and refute it. I have done things like referring to dev quotes that show when you are wrong. This is much stronger than what you have done.

[nokowi]

Well that's how the game used to be, casual players with tons of alts. You get to level 10, 12, 14, 16, 20; w/e it was at the time there was nothing else to do but make more alts casual or not. Any old player is going to have a lot of alts and character slots, and more than likely spent real money on all of them. Its easy for newer players to casually insist that the way they are playing the game should be the only way to play it at the exclusion of other play styles and how the game has historically been.

I think you are basically ignoring the flip side of the guy that gets a tr in a week or less. He also makes way more free tp than the casual player is is less likely to spend real money on the game because of that. That and the casual player uses less server resources so any money he does spend is way more valuable in comparison. Driving away your best customers(casuals) is lunacy.

There are far and few 11 year old games with tons of casual players.

Joining a game 11 years in the making and expecting the game to be designed around casuals is lunacy.


The best DDO can do is try to provide a good experience for new/casual players without doing so at the expense of the vets.

No new/casual players needs every reaper reward or every past life. That is pure lunacy.

If they enjoy the game, they can hang around for 5-10 years and decide if they want to remain casual or become a vet.

Giving them everything ensures they won't be here in 5-10 years, while also driving many others away.

[Thrudh]

Here is where you reveal your ignorance of what it takes to become 3x completionist.

You are off by a factor of 10.

20 hours heroic life (14x3)=42x20=840 hours
15 hours epic life (12x3)=36x15=540 hours
20 hours iconic life (5x3)=15x20=300 hours

You're so wrong it's unbelievable.

A more casual player (like me) will take about 2x the above amounts. It only takes 1 year to get 3x completionist @60 hours a week.

You are not casual at all. You have no idea what the word means.

If you play for 10 years @15 hours a week, you should have 2.5 3x completionists.

I've played around 10-15 hours a week for the past 11 years. I am nowhere near doing a TR in 20 hours. I would have quit the game long ago if I played like that. I play quests for fun, not the same quests over and over each life that give the max xp/minute. I also spend time just organizing stuff on various characters and checking out the AH. I don't spend every second of game time in the best xp/min quest for my level.

It's absolutely ridiculous that you think more than 2% of players play like that. Over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

[KoobTheProud]

I don't think 2% of all players play like that although it is very possible that 2% of the remaining population has sorted itself to be in that play group.

If I'm not failing a third of the quests I play I'm probably about ready to take a long vacation from boredom. If I'm failing two-thirds things get too slow and I'll take a vacation from that character for awhile. The fun thing is keeping the needle between those two points.

[Avantasian]

DDO players mistakenly believe they can win DDO or that there will be something to do when they get everything.

LOL. Yes ofcourse, everyone but you are just blind fools. That's a good basis for an argument Im sure.

You don't know what drives people. You don't know how people play.

[nokowi]

You're so wrong it's unbelievable.



You are not casual at all. You have no idea what the word means.



I've played around 10-15 hours a week for the past 11 years. I am nowhere near doing a TR in 20 hours. I would have quit the game long ago if I played like that. I play quests for fun, not the same quests over and over each life that give the max xp/minute. I also spend time just organizing stuff on various characters and checking out the AH. I don't spend every second of game time in the best xp/min quest for my level.

It's absolutely ridiculous that you think more than 2% of players play like that. Over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

It's your reading comprehension fail.

I said it takes me 2x 20 hours (40 hours) and that I have a more casual pace to TRing. I never said I was a casual player.

I am well aware that it can take a player over 100 hours to reach 20.

That doesn't preclude them from making an effective character in a reasonable amount of time, because few past lives are needed.


Tell me how long it takes you, how much you play, and how many past lives you need to make an effective character.

The math will show there is not a problem, even if you want more than one toon.


Making rewards easier does not help players that are less effective. Devs must add new stuff to keep the more effective players engaged in the game, and they just get further behind.

You should argue for tougher rewards, not easier, if you want more balance.

[Avantasian]

If less than 50% of players have played elite then I think its absolutely ridicoulous to worry that making some of the 4000 hour grind account wide would be a loss due to players running out of things to do.
With that number Im more convinced than any such fears are simply wrong.

[nokowi]

LOL. Yes ofcourse, everyone but you are just blind fools. That's a good basis for an argument Im sure.

You don't know what drives people. You don't know how people play.

Enlighten us with your answer for why players chase rewards they can never reasonably obtain.

I may know a lot more than you do.

[Avantasian]

Enlighten us with your answer for why players chase rewards they can never reasonably obtain.

I may know a lot more than you do.

People care about character progression and min maxing in a game about character progression and min maxing. Who would have thought!

[nokowi]

If less than 50% of players have played elite then I think its absolutely ridicoulous to worry that making some of the 4000 hour grind account wide would be a loss due to players running out of things to do.
With that number Im more convinced than any such fears are simply wrong.

It doesn't affect those >50% of players, so your conclusion is flawed.

It affects the less than 50% of people that play reaper.


It's like saying the top 1% can pay $0 in taxes because they are only 1% of people. Purely failed logic.


The reaper decisions are significant to those that play reaper, and only to those that don't play reaper when it changes their experience.