Where have the Alts gone? Also problems for new players.

[Rys]

So you are playing alts with the current system.

Thank you for showing we don't need shared RXP.

You are welcome.

[Rys]

Thank you for showing we don't need shared RXP.



You do get that your individual experience doesn't make a generalization untrue?

By the way, the logic behind these two sentences is outstanding.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

The word "need" is comedic in this context.
We, the consumers, would like more access to Alts, given that they are poorly incentived.

I have outlined various benefits and issues with Alts, and I know many people feel similarly.
Why invest time and money into something that isn't worth it?

This isn't a statement about what is possible but a statement on the monetary, time, and coolness of alts.

Alts are relatively grossly over-valued by SSG due to the zero-sum game of XP.

[FranOhmsford]

There is nobody that wants shared RXP that is willing to discuss improving alt experience any other way.

Well that's a lie for a start as I am quite willing to discuss improving alt experience any way at all!

I've been complaining about the Devs dumping on alts for years now!

[Wonedream]

Great way to make alts wayyyyyyyy better..


DITCH RACIAL PLs and just give APs on racials as you level up automatically, or ditch the AP part and leave the stat gain part to reduce PL and TR life span (making alts not so far behind) and giving racial APs for leveling up to make all characters more fun to develop without taking a life time to do so. The heroics, EPLs, iconics... are already MORE THEN ENOUGH! This will also bring alts up a LOT, making them look WAY more attractive and fun and tempting and mouth watering... it will make a better game.

Adding more PLs was a big mistake. Just pump the racial AP gains into the leveling up process. Bam..... game is better already. Not so many PLs to do and alts are now looking wayyyyyyyyy more fun to play with!

[RoberttheBard]

Long does not equal to hard.
Something may be long and easy.
Something may be short and hard.

You are welcome.

So there's no need to "fix" anything. Moving on:

That person has already got all those past lives once!

The fact that he/she has done it once automatically means he/she is good enough to do it again without too much trouble other than the time requirement!

Plus their second character {IF still first life when their main is a triple uber completionist - which is highly unlikely as that second character will probably already be at least 2nd or 3rd life by that point.} will have the benefit of all the gear that player has collected over the years, most likely full Cannith Crafting ability even if that means having to log back on to the triple uber completionist or a special crafting alt to use and of course all the other benefits of being a vet player capable of getting triple uber completionist on even one toon!

For anyone other than that triple uber completionist this issue isn't even an issue as they do still have stuff to earn on their main as well as on alts and being able to pass RXP earned by the alt to that main gives them more reason to play that alt!

Then they shouldn't have any problem doing it again, or, conversely, understanding that, depending on what they want to play as an alt, they won't need to do it again. Again, this means there's no reason to "fix" anything.

Now, for the seemingly apparent conclusion from some other posts: MMOs are designed to keep people playing as long as possible. This is not accomplished through handing out the "carrots" as soon as they roll up a new character/alt. What is instead accomplished is "there's nothing for me to do, you need to get new content out every (insert hyperbolic timeframe here) to keep me interested". This "solution" isn't good for the game, it's very bad for the game. It's not going to add to longevity, it's going to take away from it, and take away from potential income sources for SSG.

For every "I'm not going to be buying stuff from the store for my alts, there are people that will be. I'm not going to pretend to know the ratios, I'm just going to state the obvious. If I felt like I needed tomes/bank space/etc. from the store for an alt, and I had either the coins from my stipend, or cash on hand to buy them, I certainly would, I have. That's all the information I need to tell me that others would as well. But why bother with that, if I can just roll a new alt with all the benefits I've earned on a main? Why invest that time, if I can just roll up a triple completionist? Then what? Once it's at cap, what's there to do?

I don't need to run Reaper, because I've already maxed it out. I don't need to level crafting, because I've already maxed it out. I don't need to run the TR train, because I've already maxed it out. I don't need to run the ITR train, because I've already maxed it out, and I don't need to run the ER train, because I've already maxed it out. Nothing left to accomplish? Guess what, it's not "now I can sit at cap, and discuss how uber I am", it's "time to move on, I've done everything I can here". "But that won't happen" is a delusion, or a manipulation to attempt to convince SSG. I've seen it happen. I've seen what happens when there's no "end game" and people have maxed all the alts they have. They're on the forums, if they're so inclined, talking about how much they need something to do. The ones that aren't inclined to use the forums, which is a very real majority of a game's player base? They move on. If they had a sub, and don't think they'll be back until a new release, they cancel it, planning to add the bare minimum when/if they come back. I've seen players in multiple guilds over multiple MMOs do exactly that. Some came back, some didn't. So front loading all of these perks isn't good for the game.

[Wizza]

So there's no need to "fix" anything.

I assume you quoted my post by mistake, otherwise I see absolutely no correlation between what you quoted and what you just said.

[RoberttheBard]

I assume you quoted my post by mistake, otherwise I see absolutely no correlation between what you quoted and what you just said.

I'll break it down for you:

If Long does not equal hard then there's no reason to grant RXP to all alts. It is, after all, just going to be a long process, but not hard, and thus, no reason to "fix" anything. You are welcome.

[Avantasian]

I'll break it down for you:

If Long does not equal hard then there's no reason to grant RXP to all alts. It is, after all, just going to be a long process, but not hard, and thus, no reason to "fix" anything. You are welcome.

If it's too long less people will go for it, thus losing out on variation they would have gotten otherwise, and said variation would more than likely made them play the game more and thus also be more willing to spend more money on it.

[RoberttheBard]

If it's too long less people will go for it, thus losing out on variation they would have gotten otherwise, and said variation would more than likely made them play the game more and thus also be more willing to spend more money on it.

Fallacy.

If it's too long, people will either do it, or they won't is true. However, giving it to them on every character does nothing to extend the life of the game. What are you going to do with a full stable of triple completionist toons? I know I'm going to move on. I've climbed the mountain, there's no sense in sitting up here patting myself on the back for something that isn't hard, is there? This brings me to the rest of the fallacy, if it's not hard, why does it need to be easier? I think someone else pointed that out earlier, however.

[Avantasian]

Fallacy.

If it's too long, people will either do it, or they won't is true. However, giving it to them on every character does nothing to extend the life of the game. What are you going to do with a full stable of triple completionist toons? I know I'm going to move on. I've climbed the mountain, there's no sense in sitting up here patting myself on the back for something that isn't hard, is there? This brings me to the rest of the fallacy, if it's not hard, why does it need to be easier? I think someone else pointed that out earlier, however.

Fallacy!

It extends the life of the game by adding more variety. The 0.000001% of players who sits with a full stable of triple completionists are of little concern.
And again, shorter does not equal easier.

[Wonedream]

Fallacy.

If it's too long, people will either do it, or they won't is true. However, giving it to them on every character does nothing to extend the life of the game. What are you going to do with a full stable of triple completionist toons? I know I'm going to move on. I've climbed the mountain, there's no sense in sitting up here patting myself on the back for something that isn't hard, is there? This brings me to the rest of the fallacy, if it's not hard, why does it need to be easier? I think someone else pointed that out earlier, however.

Errrr...

I got you confused with gramh the bard. So you are the one claiming to be a mini-thor. Noted.


As to alts... still dead to me, still just mules. That is all I got to say, not much else to discuss other then how to fix that or if it should be.

If it is, I will play them and invest in them, if not... they make no $$$ for SSG and I wont play them beyond muling purposes.

[RoberttheBard]

Fallacy!

It extends the life of the game by adding more variety. The 0.000001% of players who sits with a full stable of triple completionists are of little concern.
And again, shorter does not equal easier.

It adds 0 variety. I now have 28 toons that are exactly the same past lives wise. What's of little concern should be the limited number of people that believe that giving all the carrots all at once are "good for the game".

[Avantasian]

It adds 0 variety. I now have 28 toons that are exactly the same past lives wise. What's of little concern should be the limited number of people that believe that giving all the carrots all at once are "good for the game".

Good thing no one here believes that giving all the carrots all at once are "good for the game" then!
You must have misread something

[RoberttheBard]

Errrr...

I got you confused with gramh the bard. So you are the one claiming to be a mini-thor. Noted.


As to alts... still dead to me, still just mules. That is all I got to say, not much else to discuss other then how to fix that or if it should be.

If it is, I will play them and invest in them, if not... they make no $$$ for SSG and I wont play them beyond muling purposes.

What is it that you were planning to do with them before the latest batch of "but I don't want to put in the time for the rewards for putting in the time"? Who is it that's adversely affected by your decision? SSG? So one customer is going to break their bank? You throw this out like it's some kind of "punishment", but really, you're not even a drop in a very small bucket. If everyone lobbying for "give it to me now" quit tomorrow, do you think it would close SSG's doors? Of course, we've covered this ground before and it was "nobody was supposed to pull my hole card", or something similar. I think it was "don't tell me how to play" when all I did was encourage you to follow through with your threat to delete your alts. Amazing how that works, isn't it?

[RoberttheBard]

Good thing no one here believes that giving all the carrots all at once are "good for the game" then!
You must have misread something

Nope:

Past lives should be account wide. This was a very real thread.
ETR should be account wide. This was a very real thread.
Crafting XP should be account wide, despite the BtA nature of the bound shards now. That might even be in this thread.
Reaper XP should be account wide.

What carrots aren't being "demanded" again? Wait, nobody's asked for "all BtA items should duplicate themselves for all alts" yet...

[Avantasian]

Nope:

Past lives should be account wide. This was a very real thread.
ETR should be account wide. This was a very real thread.
Crafting XP should be account wide, despite the BtA nature of the bound shards now. That might even be in this thread.
Reaper XP should be account wide.

What carrots aren't being "demanded" again? Wait, nobody's asked for "all BtA items should duplicate themselves for all alts" yet...

I agree that the limited number of people who wants all that is of little concern!

[Wizza]

I'll break it down for you:

If Long does not equal hard then there's no reason to grant RXP to all alts. It is, after all, just going to be a long process, but not hard, and thus, no reason to "fix" anything. You are welcome.

Since noone ever wanted the change because "it was hard", it doesn't change anything. The reason was, is, and will still be because it's a too long process.

Thus, your post tells me you have understood nothing of the reasons why people want the change, since it was the nay sayers to first call it "a request for the game to be made easier".

You are welcome.

[RoberttheBard]

Since noone ever wanted the change because "it was hard", it doesn't change anything. The reason was, is, and will still be because it's a too long process.

Thus, your post tells me you have understood nothing of the reasons why people want the change, since it was the nay sayers to first call it "a request for the game to be made easier".

You are welcome.

I understood it perfectly: The people insisting this is a good idea have no idea how MMOs work. You are welcome.

[RobbinB]

Now, for the seemingly apparent conclusion from some other posts: MMOs are designed to keep people playing as long as possible. This is not accomplished through handing out the "carrots" as soon as they roll up a new character/alt. What is instead accomplished is "there's nothing for me to do, you need to get new content out every (insert hyperbolic timeframe here) to keep me interested". This "solution" isn't good for the game, it's very bad for the game. It's not going to add to longevity, it's going to take away from it, and take away from potential income sources for SSG.

For every "I'm not going to be buying stuff from the store for my alts, there are people that will be. I'm not going to pretend to know the ratios, I'm just going to state the obvious. If I felt like I needed tomes/bank space/etc. from the store for an alt, and I had either the coins from my stipend, or cash on hand to buy them, I certainly would, I have. That's all the information I need to tell me that others would as well. But why bother with that, if I can just roll a new alt with all the benefits I've earned on a main? Why invest that time, if I can just roll up a triple completionist? Then what? Once it's at cap, what's there to do?

I don't need to run Reaper, because I've already maxed it out. I don't need to level crafting, because I've already maxed it out. I don't need to run the TR train, because I've already maxed it out. I don't need to run the ITR train, because I've already maxed it out, and I don't need to run the ER train, because I've already maxed it out. Nothing left to accomplish? Guess what, it's not "now I can sit at cap, and discuss how uber I am", it's "time to move on, I've done everything I can here". "But that won't happen" is a delusion, or a manipulation to attempt to convince SSG. I've seen it happen. I've seen what happens when there's no "end game" and people have maxed all the alts they have. They're on the forums, if they're so inclined, talking about how much they need something to do. The ones that aren't inclined to use the forums, which is a very real majority of a game's player base? They move on. If they had a sub, and don't think they'll be back until a new release, they cancel it, planning to add the bare minimum when/if they come back. I've seen players in multiple guilds over multiple MMOs do exactly that. Some came back, some didn't. So front loading all of these perks isn't good for the game.

Again, as I've pointed out before, the biggest fallacy here is the black-and-white where we have to decide between 2 positions, one which completely punishes players with lots of alts and one which is 100% sharing of xp for all past lives. There isn't any system that "shares" xp or reduces level-up times on alts in a less-than-100% manner?

Secondly, the "what is there to do when you are tiple completionist on everything" may itself be misleading, since there is likely only a small playerbase that will achieve that. I play for an hour or 2 most nights and the current implemented racial past-life system would take me like 3-5 years to triple complete for 3 lives x 10 classes. None of my toons have more than 2 heroic tr's completed, none of my toons have yet to complete a single iconic tr, and none of my toons are yet epic completionist. So even if the worst-case 100% xp sharing model were used for all types of tr'ing, this would never leave me with a "finished" character looking for something to do. I'm not saying there wouldn't be any players that reach that point, but it's not like the majority of the playerbase or anything.

As the racial tr system sits now, I will be doing exactly zero of them, since the first life being the +1 skill point makes it not worth the bother. Which means I won't be buying anything from the DDO store that relates to helping with that endeavor. And that version of the racial tr system is not "keeping me playing more".