Where have the Alts gone? Also problems for new players.

[Rys]

May I ponder that your main is melee based and your alt is ranged/caster based?

My main is monkcher too OP pls nerf.

[FranOhmsford]

One simple question, when RXP is shared, what will the easiest route to get RXP be?

1. Playing an alt
2. Playing a main

Would a reward based player take the easy path (more powerful main) or take the slower path (lower reaper setting on an alt)?


I'm going to say the vast majority of reaper players will do EXACTLY what they already do with reaper, which is take the easy route for faster rewards rather than the more challenging route.

I think dev's would be absolutely insane to listen to these shared RXP requests.

They won't do what those asking for easier rewards claim they would do, as efficiency says to stay on your main anyway.

If you care about developing your alts, you can currently play and develop your alts. With the shared RXP implementation, efficiency says you are better off staying on your main to develop your alts. That would be a terrible design choice.

I've already said a number of times that I'm playing alts at this moment and I have absolutely no reason to take those alts into Reaper!

Why?

Because my "Main" gets nothing out of it and those "alts" are unlikely ever to get more than a few thousand RXP each!

Add it all together though and my "Main" and "alts" can help each other!

It depends which one I'm playing at the time which I will take into Reaper IF RXP was Account Based!

Character Based RXP there's ZERO reason for me to run Reaper at all!

R1 or R10 it doesn't matter - There's ZERO reason for me to run it!




Well ok there's one reason - EVERYONE ELSE IS RUNNING IT! And yes if my guildies won't drop down from Reaper I may HAVE TO RUN Reaper whether I want to or not!




My "Main" won't be running Reaper either because my "Main" {which if you're talking about most powerful toon really means the one I'm NOT Levelling!} is at Cap and generally only played when I need Saga Renown for my Guild!


I actually don't like this "Main vs Alts" idea - I find it to be nonsensical as tbh the character I'm playing right now is my "Main", the character I play next week will be "Main" next week!
I also consider myself to have MULTIPLE MAINS!


And who cares if someone who plays one toon 99% of the time has Mules with maxed out Reaper Trees!
Chances are they're still not gonna play those mules that much and if anything this will at least give them more reason to break those mules out from time to time!

The thing is that right now IF some 1 Toon Player who hasn't already maxed out that toon in every way logs on to his mule and sees an R10 he'd like to join that his main isn't at level for well 1) His Mule is a Mule so likely to be more of a hindrance than a help to that group and 2) Running that Quest on that Mule basically gains him NOTHING! a few hundred RXP for a Mule that may not get played again for 6 months - Wouldn't it be better for that RXP to go to the Main as well and any other alts he decides to play or create in future?


OK So there's the "issue" of a completely maxed out character and the player wanting to go again on another - Well that other still has to get Heroic Past Lives, Epic Past Lives, Iconic Past Lives and possibly Racial Past Lives too {though I really think Racial should be merged into Heroic! As that's another ludicrous grind tagged on!} - Would it really be a problem that he couldn't earn RXP cos he would have already earned it on the previous main?
It's not gonna stop him running Reaper because Reaper will still give more standard XP and a player capable of fully maxing out one toon isn't likely to have trouble with Reaper on a second toon even on 1st Life!

[Gremmlynn]

OK So there's the "issue" of a completely maxed out character and the player wanting to go again on another - Well that other still has to get Heroic Past Lives, Epic Past Lives, Iconic Past Lives and possibly Racial Past Lives too {though I really think Racial should be merged into Heroic! As that's another ludicrous grind tagged on!} - Would it really be a problem that he couldn't earn RXP cos he would have already earned it on the previous main?
It's not gonna stop him running Reaper because Reaper will still give more standard XP and a player capable of fully maxing out one toon isn't likely to have trouble with Reaper on a second toon even on 1st Life!

Kind of contradicting yourself here. Why would this player have to get all of those past lives if they are unlikely to have trouble on a first life?

[Epicstorms]

Let's comment on how players say they choose to play reaper, with a focus on those that are reward focused.

1. R1-R5 farm whatever is non challenging on their main.
2. R6-R10 and complain about the length of the quest (RXP/min is not "balanced") rather than how to make the quest more exciting.

DDO players overwhelmingly play for efficiency by the time they get to reaper capability.

A key argument by those that want shared RXP (reward based forumites) is that it will allow them to play their alts. (More accurately they will refuse to play alts if their demand is not made) .

One simple question, when RXP is shared, what will the easiest route to get RXP be?

1. Playing an alt
2. Playing a main

Would a reward based player take the easy path (more powerful main) or take the slower path (lower reaper setting on an alt)?


I'm going to say the vast majority of reaper players will do EXACTLY what they already do with reaper, which is take the easy route for faster rewards rather than the more challenging route.

I think dev's would be absolutely insane to listen to these shared RXP requests.

They won't do what those asking for easier rewards claim they would do, as efficiency says to stay on your main anyway.

If you care about developing your alts, you can currently play and develop your alts. With the shared RXP implementation, efficiency says you are better off staying on your main to develop your alts. That would be a terrible design choice.

You're getting annoying now ...

It's fine if you disagree, but you do not know everything. People can have different reasons you know?

I will play my alts for heroic reaper if RXP was shared. I will keep my main at endgame.
The difference between alts and a main running a warlock is not that great either way, lool ... (sad)

[RoberttheBard]

Making players focus on one character is not making the game harder.

It evidently is, for some people. That's why we have "account wide past lives", "account wide crafting xp", "account wide Reaper XP" threads, isn't it? Because it's going to be too hard/take too long to achieve those things "on all my alts, so make it so I don't have to, but still get credit for it". Ironically enough, it's not affecting my alts, which is why I get all confused about how useless they're supposed to be. The majority of my builds don't even need a past life, let alone completionist. The ones where I'm going for past lives are doing so for a goal. Most of the real progression, gear, is already done, I just have to level back into it, and I'm not all that assed about getting cosmetics, although I'd love some wings for my final FvS build. There'll be plenty of time to work on that later, if I decide it's all that important. That's why I can leave my assassin at, or near cap, like it is right now, w/out feeling like I'm "ripping myself off" or something on it by focusing on my main, or on one of my other projects.

That's the key thing, right there: projects. That's what they are, ideas that I want to test out, builds I want to run outside of what my plans for my main are, so that I have a variety of playstyles running to cut down on burn out and boredom. Ranger is the absolute easiest way to get to AA, for example, but is also absolutely the most boring way to actually play it. FvS was way more fun, even if it is a lot more work to get there. Hell, a 14/6 Druid/Ranger build was tons more fun, even though, looking through the enhancements, it was just a Ranger with cooler spells. I did that to get a druid life for my arti, and with two more to do, it was fun enough that I'll be doing it again, and will, eventually, be making a full time version, because it didn't do too bad in epics, if it's spells were "hit and miss".

Pure Wiz and Druid AAs are also a lot of fun to play, and play differently from both the Ranger and FvS versions, even if I never TR them. That's the value of alts. I get to experience the game in different ways, sometimes way different, than I do on my main. I get to knock the dust off of 'em when I need that level range for a guild raid or grouping day. It's fun to get on my arti and do stuff, or my acrobat instead of my assassin. I don't have "self limiters" in place. I don't require all my toons to be triple completionists to consider them viable. I've seen them work w/out it. The only reason my acrobat has a past life is because it used to be a mech, and I decided I wanted to try out acrobat, and TRd it. If not for that, I'd still be a mech/arti hybrid, that I was having tons of fun with in epics. This is what alts are for, not "I need my alts to farm (insert fotm "I don't want to grind it" xp here)". If experiencing the game from different perspectives isn't why you're playing alts, you're doing it wrong.

[KoobTheProud]

Many things in the game are not realistically achievable without either:

a) playing 6 hours a day

or

b) playing 6 minutes an instance

For many players neither option represents a realistic or fun way to play the game. This is a design flaw. Carrots should not be placed at the end of 10 foot poles nor only available to horses who sprint near maximum possible speed. All that does is tire out most of the horses while satisfying the few that would play anyway no matter where the carrot was dangled.

[Wizza]

Long does not equal to hard.
Something may be long and easy.
Something may be short and hard.

You are welcome.

[Chai]

Monetizing time consumption mitigation is the current revenue generation system, which was supported hand over fist in the community. Once the time consumption has been complained about long enough, the mitigation of time consumption enters the store.

The era on the forums reminds me alot of 2009 on the forums. People were complaining about how long it would take to get all these TRs done to min max their characters. Then the incrementally purchasable mitigation of time consumption arrived.

Those claiming time consumption =/= difficulty are incorrect by degree, and betray your own hand when asking for the character power on all characters after only grinding it on one. If consuming that time to get those trees filled didnt make the character better, and therefore make the game easier on higher settings, this discussion wouldnt be occurring.

[Avantasian]

Long does not equal to hard.
Something may be long and easy.
Something may be short and hard.

You are welcome.

This.

[slarden]

Long does not equal to hard.
Something may be long and easy.
Something may be short and hard.

You are welcome.

The difficulty of hamster wheels in DDO relates more to how much effort is required to complete an achievement not quest difficulty. If you have 12 alts and fill the rxp tree on just your main, it certainly is easier to fill the rxp trees on all your alts if rxp is account based vs character based. Just as it's easier to get a bachelor's degree vs. master's degree because it takes less time even though most people with just a bachelor's degree are perfectly capable of completing master's degree.

Hard refers to quest difficulty, but it also refers to the difficulty of completing a certain task like filling rxp. If it wasn't hard to fill rxp people wouldn't be asking to make it easier.

[FranOhmsford]

Kind of contradicting yourself here. Why would this player have to get all of those past lives if they are unlikely to have trouble on a first life?

That person has already got all those past lives once!

The fact that he/she has done it once automatically means he/she is good enough to do it again without too much trouble other than the time requirement!

Plus their second character {IF still first life when their main is a triple uber completionist - which is highly unlikely as that second character will probably already be at least 2nd or 3rd life by that point.} will have the benefit of all the gear that player has collected over the years, most likely full Cannith Crafting ability even if that means having to log back on to the triple uber completionist or a special crafting alt to use and of course all the other benefits of being a vet player capable of getting triple uber completionist on even one toon!

For anyone other than that triple uber completionist this issue isn't even an issue as they do still have stuff to earn on their main as well as on alts and being able to pass RXP earned by the alt to that main gives them more reason to play that alt!

[Wizza]

The difficulty of hamster wheels in DDO relates more to how much effort is required to complete an achievement not quest difficulty. If you have 12 alts and fill the rxp tree on just your main, it certainly is easier to fill the rxp trees on all your alts if rxp is account based vs character based. Just as it's easier to get a bachelor's degree vs. master's degree because it takes less time even though most people with just a bachelor's degree are perfectly capable of completing master's degree.

Hard refers to quest difficulty, but it also refers to the difficulty of completing a certain task like filling rxp. If it wasn't hard to fill rxp people wouldn't be asking to make it easier.

There is nothing hard about filling RXP. It's long, years long, and easy, since everyone zergs R1-R3.

The difficulty is related to the difficulty, not the time. Time can be a factor of difficulty in certain situations, when the Developers make it so i.e. A New Invasion, Hound of Xoriat come to mind.

I'm not interested in your metaphors that are unrelated to DDO, also because a master's degree is not harder by default. Takes long, but definitely not harder.

[slarden]

There is nothing hard about filling RXP. It's long, years long, and easy, since everyone zergs R1-R3.

The difficulty is related to the difficulty, not the time. Time can be a factor of difficulty in certain situations, when the Developers make it so i.e. A New Invasion, Hound of Xoriat come to mind.

I'm not interested in your metaphors that are unrelated to DDO, also because a master's degree is not harder by default. Takes long, but definitely not harder.

I agree applying metaphors from real life to DDO just don't work. It's up to the devs to decide if making it quicker to fill rxp on alts is something they want to support.

And I get that you want to nuke R1-R5 from orbit because the devs aren't responding to the account-based rxp request. However, R1-R5 is there and people are running it and seems to be the most popular skull levels. There is no dev effort to leave it and some work to get rid of it.

Changing the mechanic for rxp to be account based is likely alot of work - although only the devs can say that for sure. I kind of like that my alts are all different strengths - it makes me really have to think about maximizing their potential. If rxp was account wide I wouldn't protest, but since it seems to be something the community is split about, I question whether it's worth the dev effort.

[Wizza]

And I get that you want to nuke R1-R5 from orbit because the devs aren't responding to the account-based rxp request. However, R1-R5 is there and people are running it and seems to be the most popular skull levels. There is no dev effort to leave it and some work to get rid of it.

And I said this, in this thread, where exactly? Cute.

Not worth a reply

Time to go back beating the R10 HH Ice wall, and overcome the incredible challenge posed by such a mob. Because longer means harder!

[Altamedes]

Many things in the game are not realistically achievable without either:

a) playing 6 hours a day

or

b) playing 6 minutes an instance

For many players neither option represents a realistic or fun way to play the game. This is a design flaw. Carrots should not be placed at the end of 10 foot poles nor only available to horses who sprint near maximum possible speed. All that does is tire out most of the horses while satisfying the few that would play anyway no matter where the carrot was dangled.

So very true.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

And I said this, in this thread, where exactly? Cute.

Not worth a reply

Time to go back beating the R10 HH Ice wall, and overcome the incredible challenge posed by such a mob. Because longer means harder!

+1

lol

[nokowi]

You're getting annoying now ...

It's fine if you disagree, but you do not know everything. People can have different reasons you know?

I will play my alts for heroic reaper if RXP was shared. I will keep my main at endgame.
The difference between alts and a main running a warlock is not that great either way, lool ... (sad)

If you read my posts, I already said I can't know any one persons individual motivations.

Most of you will play your alts despite what you post here.

The majority of you just want to be rewarded more for doing so.

The second a bunch of new content comes out, most of you will be back on your alts for the usual ransack purposes.

Devs can look at data and monitor what all you complaining will actually do.

[nokowi]

I've already said a number of times that I'm playing alts at this moment and I have absolutely no reason to take those alts into Reaper!

You are living proof that people will play alts without needing shared RXP.

There is a minority of players that don't understand that the majority of players are outside of reaper.

There is a minority of this minority that believe shared RXP would be a good thing.


There is nobody that wants shared RXP that is willing to discuss improving alt experience any other way.

Make your own conclusion why that is.

[nokowi]

Wanna hear a secret? R10 is easier on my alt than on my main. Boom.

So you are playing alts with the current system.

Thank you for showing we don't need shared RXP.



You do get that your individual experience doesn't make a generalization untrue?

[nokowi]

Many things in the game are not realistically achievable without either:

a) playing 6 hours a day

or

b) playing 6 minutes an instance

For many players neither option represents a realistic or fun way to play the game. This is a design flaw. Carrots should not be placed at the end of 10 foot poles nor only available to horses who sprint near maximum possible speed. All that does is tire out most of the horses while satisfying the few that would play anyway no matter where the carrot was dangled.

The design flaw was teaching players they are entitled to everything regardless of how they choose/like to play.

The "carrot" is that RXP is front loaded and you don't need that last carrot to do anything in DDO.

The "carrot" is you can grab RXP along with other things (past lives, etc), so it is a catch up mechanism for those not maxed out.