account share epic past life

[Avantasian]

You are taking two completely different things and equating them.

There is no reason shared RXP is needed if your great example of providing incentives for alts is a raid.

All they need to do is produce new raids that are equally well received.


What we should agree on is that Shared RXP has little to do with the example you cite, and your continual effort to say they are equal is a miserable failure.

Not everybody agrees that shared RXP will make people play alts more. Some say less because those motivated by rewards can just play their best toon.

So of all the ways to increase use of alts, you take one that is unproven and not agreed upon, instead of the proven model.



I repeat, why can't they just add some new content to encourage use of alts?

Why would designers shorten the life of reaper when there is a much better solution?

I would prefer both. Content was enough back when we didn't have any past lives, but I don't see how it would be enough now that we have 4000 hours of grinding per character instead of 40.
Do you even see how those 4000 hours can be seen as a barrier for making alts? Hint: All bonuses are not considered to be needed.

[Avantasian]

I apologized because there was no dishonesty intended, and it was clear the discussion could not move forward for you without one.

If people had to apologize whenever they misstate another persons opinion, 10 pages threads would be 200 pages long. It is often intentional misstatements, in which no apology would ever occur and every thread would need to be closed the moment any misrepresentation was made.

The request was pretty ridiculous (having already admitted I now understood your position), but I complied to move the discussion forward.

Apparently you fail to understand the difference between fabricating a position and not yet understanding a position. I will retract the apology if you are going to make misstatements that I willfully misrepresented your opinion. That would be a willful misrepresentation of me, and would require an apology from you for the discussion to move forward, using your own self created rules of etiquette for the forums.

If people didn't misstate other persons opinions 200 page threads would be 20 pages.
Your misstatements were direct contradictions to just about everything I had said, so even if they were not intentional you should not be stating other people opinions without putting in some effort to actually learn what their opinion is. That you didn't know is not an excuse, that just means that you shouldn't have pretended that you knew.

[Enoach]

I would prefer both. Content was enough back when we didn't have any past lives, but I don't see how it would be enough now that we have 4000 hours of grinding per character instead of 40.
Do you even see how those 4000 hours can be seen as a barrier for making alts? Hint: All bonuses are not considered to be needed.

I would pose the question asking if the lack of benefits of the 4,000 hours is a barrier.

Past lives do add bonuses, but I would say outside of a DC type caster build the benefits of Heroic Past Lives are more in the 1% to 5% improvement, maybe 10% with completionest.

Now Epic Past Lives in my opinion do add about 5% to 15% (Epic Completionest) more power.

But even with Reaper mode you don't need all of the power these lives provide in order to complete. Otherwise we would only be seeing Full Completionest (Heroic, Iconic and Epic) in Reaper and we all know that is not true.

The problem with the measurement is most are considering a character that has it all as being the 100% mark and everyone else under that. When really that character is someplace over the 100% mark. But these characters are Excessed Powered compared to the Environment they run in.

If people didn't misstate other persons opinions 200 page threads would be 20 pages.
Your misstatements were direct contradictions to just about everything I had said, so even if they were not intentional you should not be stating other people opinions without putting in some effort to actually learn what their opinion is. That you didn't know is not an excuse, that just means that you shouldn't have pretended that you knew.

One of the first things you learn in basic communication course is that as the presenter you need to know your audience and be responsible for making sure your message is understood by those you are presenting to. This is why you learn how to get feedback to make sure they understand. That is what avoids conversations trailing off and two people agreeing but spending time arguing with each other about how they agree but want the other person to agree with them.

[nokowi]

If people didn't misstate other persons opinions 200 page threads would be 20 pages.
Your misstatements were direct contradictions to just about everything I had said, so even if they were not intentional you should not be stating other people opinions without putting in some effort to actually learn what their opinion is. That you didn't know is not an excuse, that just means that you shouldn't have pretended that you knew.

I already apologized.

Get over it.

[nokowi]

I would prefer both. Content was enough back when we didn't have any past lives, but I don't see how it would be enough now that we have 4000 hours of grinding per character instead of 40.
Do you even see how those 4000 hours can be seen as a barrier for making alts? Hint: All bonuses are not considered to be needed.

If you define an 11 year old game by how much gameplay it has in hours, and then call a large number something negative, the problem is you.

Play the game if you enjoy it and stop complaining about too much to do if you don't.

Play alts if you enjoy alts, and stop crunching numbers on the forums to create a problem.

Too much content is not a problem if you enjoy the game.

[Avantasian]

I would pose the question asking if the lack of benefits of the 4,000 hours is a barrier.

Past lives do add bonuses, but I would say outside of a DC type caster build the benefits of Heroic Past Lives are more in the 1% to 5% improvement, maybe 10% with completionest.

Now Epic Past Lives in my opinion do add about 5% to 15% (Epic Completionest) more power.

But even with Reaper mode you don't need all of the power these lives provide in order to complete. Otherwise we would only be seeing Full Completionest (Heroic, Iconic and Epic) in Reaper and we all know that is not true.

The problem with the measurement is most are considering a character that has it all as being the 100% mark and everyone else under that. When really that character is someplace over the 100% mark. But these characters are Excessed Powered compared to the Environment they run in.

Needing any of it is irrelevant. We don't need it yet we still hunt for it. It's the nature of the game, it's why we are playing.

You cannot be over the 100% mark. "Being able to complete the content" is not a useful measuring stick.

One of the first things you learn in basic communication course is that as the presenter you need to know your audience and be responsible for making sure your message is understood by those you are presenting to. This is why you learn how to get feedback to make sure they understand. That is what avoids conversations trailing off and two people agreeing but spending time arguing with each other about how they agree but want the other person to agree with them.

If someone jumps into the middle of a discussion and makes a statement about ones position that had been directly contradicted a few posts before it's clear where the fault lies. That is the sort of behaivor that makes these forums a toxic mess and I will continue to call it out when I see it.

[Avantasian]

If you define an 11 year old game by how much gameplay it has in hours, and then call a large number something negative, the problem is you.

Play the game if you enjoy it and stop complaining about too much to do if you don't.

Play alts if you enjoy alts, and stop crunching numbers on the forums to create a problem.

Too much content is not a problem if you enjoy the game.

Having some system requiring a specific character and some allowing shared best meets everyone's preferences.

[nokowi]

If someone jumps into the middle of a discussion and makes a statement about ones position that had been directly contradicted a few posts before it's clear where the fault lies. That is the sort of behaivor that makes these forums a toxic mess and I will continue to call it out when I see it.

Forums become toxic when players sidetrack discussions and make things personal attacks.

Clarifying positions, and moving the discussion forward are part of having a discussion.

I suggest you stop with the first sentence and work on the second.

[nokowi]

Having some system requiring a specific character and some allowing shared best meets everyone's preferences.

We already have this. You went on and on about BTA gear, and quest design.

To make an argument, you have to show why we don't have enough shared things, and why RXP is a good choice among the options we have.

Having some water is good. Having too much will kill you. You can't take something good in a certain amount and say we automatically need more of it.

I say we have enough shared stuff, and that shared RXP is a poor choice specifically because it allows players to not use their alts.

You keep ignoring the people that said they would not play alts with shared RXP, and continue with vague statements that are conceptually flawed.

[AbyssalMage]

DDO players haven't had to learn or adapt in a long time, the game has just been too easy prior to reaper.

Honestly I want to know what game you are playing because it isn't DDO.

The only adaption to Reaper has been to not Zerg, and even that is being challenged. Honestly, the only adjustment I make, when I do choose to join a Reaper group, which seems to be the only groups offered (i.e. its the new "Elite", thanks SSG /Heavy Sarcasm), is to bring plenty of scrolls.

So I am trying to figure out why when I read the forums, there are "two" DDO's being discussed because from a pure technical standpoint, r1 - r3 is just Elite. R4 - r7 is for people who know how to "work together" and r8+ is for people who want to use a lot of resources.

[Avantasian]

Forums become toxic when players sidetrack discussions and make things personal attacks.

Making misstatements, clarifying positions, and moving the discussion forward are part of having a discussion.

I suggest you stop with the first sentence and work on the second.

You would perhaps have a point if the most common "tactic" here is to throw **** at the wall to see what sticks and never make any sort of acknowledgement that they were wrong and never change their mind regardless of any facts or new information.

If we go back to were you jumped in:
"The flaw in your logic is that assuming because something is OK in limited form, it must be OK when applied everywhere."

I never assumed that, so the flaw in my logic is simply not there. I told you that. Did it stop you? No, here we are 5 pages later.
Sigh...

[nokowi]

You would perhaps have a point if the most common "tactic" here is to throw **** at the wall to see what sticks and never make any sort of acknowledgement that they were wrong and never change their mind regardless of any facts or new information.

If we go back to were you jumped in:
"The flaw in your logic is that assuming because something is OK in limited form, it must be OK when applied everywhere."

I never assumed that, so the flaw in my logic is simply not there. I told you that. Did it stop you? No, here we are 5 pages later.
Sigh...

We already have shared resources. You can leave the thread if you only contribution is that we should have shared resources.

Talking about shroud and RXP are irrelevant to the point you are saying you are trying to make.

Your actions show their is some effort to say why shared RXP is good, and to link this to having shared RXP.

You are passively arguing for implementation of shared RXP while hiding behind your statement that you are not.

Pick one or the other, but stop doing both.

[Chai]

You would perhaps have a point if the most common "tactic" here is to throw **** at the wall to see what sticks and never make any sort of acknowledgement that they were wrong and never change their mind regardless of any facts or new information.

If we go back to were you jumped in:
"The flaw in your logic is that assuming because something is OK in limited form, it must be OK when applied everywhere."

I never assumed that, so the flaw in my logic is simply not there. I told you that. Did it stop you? No, here we are 5 pages later.
Sigh...

Actually there are multiple posts now where you cite loot being BTA being positive, and imply that since that was positive other systems being BTA also will be positive.

In the past hours some of my associates and I have talked about numerous MMOs which have a BTA system or two, but the rest is BTC. Personally we all agreed that we'd be fine if it was all BTA in any of the games we play, but understand why the respective companies who produce these games do not switch all of their systems over to BTA. When the company throws the players a bone and makes one system BTA, that is not an indication they can do so for all systems while not seeing a negative impact in revenue generation.

In this particular thread regarding EPLs being account wide, SSG already successfully monetized this at the character level, so now that its been established and accepted, why would they turn around and make it account level?

[Avantasian]

We already have this. You went on and on about BTA gear, and quest design.

To make an argument, you have to show why we don't have enough shared things, and why RXP is a good choice among the options we have.

Having some water is good. Having too much will kill you. You can't take something good in a certain amount and say we automatically need more of it.

I say we have enough shared stuff, and that shared RXP is a poor choice specifically because it allows players to not use their alts.

You keep ignoring the people that some people said they would not play alts with shared RXP, and continue with vague statements that are conceptually flawed.

I find it unreasonable that the implementation of thousands of hours of new character specific grinding did not change were we are in relation to optimal BTA/BTC distribution. That there are constant threads about it now confirms that.
RXP is a good choice because it leaves no ones investments ruined, no trust broken and has a significant impact on the characters. With that said I will add that I am more than willing to consider alternatives, I'm all ears. My posts in this thread has been in oppostion to those who argue against the concept of shared rewards by citing slippery slope fallacies and/or painting it as something inherently bad.

[nokowi]

Honestly I want to know what game you are playing because it isn't DDO.

The only adaption to Reaper has been to not Zerg, and even that is being challenged. Honestly, the only adjustment I make, when I do choose to join a Reaper group, which seems to be the only groups offered (i.e. its the new "Elite", thanks SSG /Heavy Sarcasm), is to bring plenty of scrolls.

So I am trying to figure out why when I read the forums, there are "two" DDO's being discussed because from a pure technical standpoint, r1 - r3 is just Elite. R4 - r7 is for people who know how to "work together" and r8+ is for people who want to use a lot of resources.

In the DDO I play, not long ago people were literally asking to not have to open doors because the game was so unchallenging that it was just a run to the end, even on elite.

The adaption for reaper would be to learn to play the way you enjoy and not require the game be built around your individual preferences for number of alts, number of hours per week, and efficiency (at the expense of everyone else's preferences).

The adaption is to figure out that "getting everything" out of reaper is a really really stupid decision for 99.9%+ of players.

Demanding the game be designed so players can do so (when it was intentionally designed so players can't do so) is pure failure.

[nokowi]

I find it unreasonable that the implementation of thousands of hours of new character specific grinding did not change were we are in relation to optimal BTA/BTC distribution. That there are constant threads about it now confirms that.
RXP is a good choice because it leaves no ones investments ruined, no trust broken and has a significant impact on the characters. With that said I will add that I am more than willing to consider alternatives, I'm all ears. My posts in this thread has been in oppostion to those who argue against the concept of shared rewards by citing slippery slope fallacies and/or painting it as something inherently bad.

The adaption for reaper would be to learn to play the way you enjoy and not require the game be built around your individual preferences for number of alts, number of hours per week, and efficiency (at the expense of everyone else's preferences).

The adaption is to figure out that "getting everything" out of reaper is a really really stupid decision for 99.9%+ of players.

Demanding the game be designed so players can do so (when it was intentionally designed so players can't do so) is pure failure.

Showing how difficult it is for a new player is pure failure.

Showing how much work it is on your alt is pure failure.


The game changed when reaper was implemented. Learn to adapt.

[Avantasian]

Actually there are multiple posts now where you cite loot being BTA being positive, and imply that since that was positive other systems being BTA also will be positive.

More misrepresentation...
Citing BTA being positive proves that BTA is not inherently bad. Nothing else. I made it abundantly clear that it does not mean that all BTA is good. The reason I believe some more BTA will be good at this point is because we just got a huge additon of BTC.

Quote those posts, if you don't mind.

In the past hours some of my associates and I have talked about numerous MMOs which have a BTA system or two, but the rest is BTC. Personally we all agreed that we'd be fine if it was all BTA in any of the games we play, but understand why the respective companies who produce these games do not switch all of their systems over to BTA. When the company throws the players a bone and makes one system BTA, that is not an indication they can do so for all systems while not seeing a negative impact in revenue generation.

In this particular thread regarding EPLs being account wide, SSG already successfully monetized this at the character level, so now that its been established and accepted, why would they turn around and make it account level?

If you believe I disagree then please link the post that makes you believe that. Clearly something is not getting through and I do want to improve.

[nokowi]

More misrepresentation...
Citing BTA being positive proves that BTA is not inherently bad. Nothing else.

When you cite positives but not negatives, your posts are biased.

We are asking you to be unbiased in your posts, and in the discussion, by admitting negatives.

Saying you are unbiased (that you have no agenda) while posting in a biased manner does not make you unbiased.

I look forward to your posts on why too many shared rewards can also be a negative.

[Avantasian]

The adaption for reaper would be to learn to play the way you enjoy and not require the game be built around your individual preferences for number of alts, number of hours per week, and efficiency (at the expense of everyone else's preferences).

The adaption is to figure out that "getting everything" out of reaper is a really really stupid decision for 99.9%+ of players.

Demanding the game be designed so players can do so (when it was intentionally designed so players can't do so) is pure failure.

Showing how difficult it is for a new player is pure failure.

Showing how much work it is on your alt is pure failure.


The game changed when reaper was implemented. Learn to adapt.

Who would be hurt exactly?

You need to understand that I am not asking for players to be able to "get everything", I am asking for players to have the option to get the exact same as they would have otherwise but in an alternative, more varied, way.
"Adapting" by abandoning alts is exactly what has happened. That is not a good thing.

[nokowi]

Who would be hurt exactly?

You should try to answer this question yourself. If you can't come up with any negatives (some of them already posted in the thread), you are in fact biased and have an agenda.

You need to understand that I am not asking for players to be able to "get everything", I am asking for players to have the option to get the exact same as they would have otherwise but in an alternative, more varied, way.

I already said you need to show why more is better (and specifically why RXP is the best choice) instead of this type of response, which is just hiding behind all or none statements.

The fact that you didn't take the idea to 11 doesn't mean that taking it to 6 or 7 is good.

"Adapting" by abandoning alts is exactly what has happened. That is not a good thing.

Reading failure. I told you to stop trying to get 100% of reaper on your toons, which would allow you to play your alts.

You haven't even looked at what rewards you can get with your preferences. You look at the very last reward, and if that is too far away you don't even see the rewards sitting right in front of you, consistent with your own preferences.

You continue to demonstrate a failure of logic by demanding your alt get 100% of reaper.