Collectable Valuation Project

[EllisDee37]

I would argue that your chart shows the price at which essences do not sell. Otherwise they would have sold and not still be listed.

My experience is that 10k essences is worth around 100 astrals.

[SuperNiCd]

OK, fair enough let's go with that. A few posts back, you'd asked if the values in terms of essences were fair/reasonable, and all I could tell you was that they didn't seem unreasonable. I've been trying to get to a better answer to your question. So using these numbers:

• 10,000 essences = 100 AS
• 700 essences in 3600 seconds (from epic dailies) = 0.194 essences/second = 5.1 seconds/essence
• The time values you've collected in the first table so far

Let's also ignore rares for now, because they're potentially weird. Let's ignore plat values, and the demand table, and also any collectible types that might need hand-adjusted due to oversupply. That means the opportunity cost (time value of money) for collectibles is shaping up like below. What I'd read into that is that if someone is offering them for less, it's a bargain. If someone were offering them for more, it would effectively be "cheaper" for me to farm them. So I'd have to decide whether I'm willing to pay the convenience charge.

I might expect to pay a higher convenience charge for a high demand collectible. I might expect a discount for an item in oversupply.

Is this helpful, or am I thinking about this wrong?

[EllisDee37]

That's an interesting perspective; I'm not entirely sure I can wrap my head around it properly at the moment.

What I forgot to mention earlier is that I've also listed 10k essences for 150 astral buyout at least twice for 3 days each and they've never sold, so that's why I keep looking sideways at 10k essences for 200 astrals. (I'm on Argo.)

As for this project, I've mostly finished incorporating the new data structures, data and code for collectable values into my crafting planner: Shard demand, collectable farming times, eberron-only collectables, pool size for a given school+tier, etc... Now I'm working on redoing ALL farming data for my crafting planner to get away from the other thread's data, much of which I feel is suboptimal. (Church and the Cult for Silver Flame Hymnals? Temple of Vol for glass phials? *shudder*)

So far I'm mostly done with Arcane, so hey, that's progress. I'm mostly looking for at least two farms per shool+tier to recommend, preferably with one being a free to play quest. If no F2P option then ideally three farms from three different packs.

Partly I've switched to this because calculating the best supply numbers for each collectable and adding up all the demands looks like it's going to be a ton of loops, enough that it might actually cause a 1-second delay on startup. That tastes like suck, so I'm putting it out of my mind for the moment.

[EllisDee37]

I was looking for a secondary lore farm for tier 2 and a guildie recommended Repossession, which turns out to be the clear best lore farm for both tier 1 and 2. No more baudry farming for me, woohoo!

Table on the first page is updated.

[SuperNiCd]

That's an interesting perspective; I'm not entirely sure I can wrap my head around it properly at the moment.

Yep, sorry. One reason it is not making sense is that there's an error in my formula. The second is that I probably went too quickly to my conclusion without showing the work. I am trying to equate time to time (collectible vs. essence) as the basis.

Let me try again and start with an example.

Example: I need 1 more glass phial (T3 Arcane) to make my CON item and don't have it. I can go farm it, and based on your work, I'd expect it to take me 245 seconds to get it.

If I were doing normal questing, in 245 seconds, I could expect to earn 245s * 0.194 essences/sec = 48 essences. So basically it takes me the same amount of time to farm out that glass phial as it does to earn 48 essences in epic dailies.

48 essences for 1 glass phial seems wrong (too low). And I think the problem is that the time spent farming and the time spent doing epic dailies are not exactly "equal". If you're doing dailies (or any normal questing), you're earning XP (in fact that's the point) and, incidentally, essences. If you're farming collectibles, pretty much all you're getting is collectibles.

In my screenshot above I accidentally multiplied by the inverse (5.1 sec/essence number) instead of the 0.19 essences/sec number. I had devalued the "normal questing" time by a factor of around 26x. But it actually made the numbers look reasonable, and it is consistent across the board, and still based on time. Not sure if 26x is exactly the right coefficient for value of farm time vs. xp questing time, but we could use any number that is agreeable and come up with consistent baselines based on time (essences) = X * time (collectibles). Then start adjusting from there for supply/demand of particular collectibles.

Hope that makes more sense. It actually does make good sense to me to try to boil essences and collectibles down to the same unit (grind time) before adjusting for any type of supply/demand adjustments to be able to tell if the final numbers seem reasonable.

Looking quite forward to the new version of the planner!

[Ulfo]

My experience is that 10k essences is worth around 100 astrals.

10k essences = 2kk plat = 200 AS in my experience.

[SuperNiCd]

I'm mostly looking for at least two farms per shool+tier to recommend, preferably with one being a free to play quest. If no F2P option then ideally three farms from three different packs.

Has Servants of the Overlord been evaluated as an F2P route for cultural T4/5? I'm not sure where the master list is at this point, as I've mostly been using your app. But didn't find it in the other thread.

The optional in there where you have to open the magic barrier to disrupt the ritual and Khyber Reavers keep spawning. As long as you can survive the spawns indefinitely and keep unsuccessfully pulling the lever, they will just keep -respawning and dropping treasure bags at a pretty good rate.

[EllisDee37]

Has Servants of the Overlord been evaluated as an F2P route for cultural T4/5? I'm not sure where the master list is at this point, as I've mostly been using your app. But didn't find it in the other thread.

The optional in there where you have to open the magic barrier to disrupt the ritual and Khyber Reavers keep spawning. As long as you can survive the spawns indefinitely and keep unsuccessfully pulling the lever, they will just keep -respawning and dropping treasure bags at a pretty good rate.

What level culture do they drop? It's based on monster type, not quest level.

Elementals drop smoldering embers, which are tier 5. Other than that, the only way I'm aware of to get any cultural tier 4, 5 or 6 is to collect Any dispensers.

That's why the Wheloon Prison backpack run is such a sweet farm.

[SuperNiCd]

What level culture do they drop? It's based on monster type, not quest level.

Elementals drop smoldering embers, which are tier 5. Other than that, the only way I'm aware of to get any cultural tier 4, 5 or 6 is to collect Any dispensers.

That's why the Wheloon Prison backpack run is such a sweet farm.

Just ran it on HC and EC, and they drop T3 Cultural, so assuming changing the difficulty won't change that. Might still be a good T3 cultural farm in the sense that you don't have to get into a recall loop. You don't even have to pull the lever to get more spawns. And it is F2P.

I took an epic auralock in on HC, and if it weren't for the fact that the Khyber Reavers are occasionally smart enough to back up a few steps out of the aura, I could have just left the room for a few hours and built up treasure bags lol. They were dropping planar spoors and small planar crystals.

[EllisDee37]

Just ran it on HC and EC, and they drop T3 Cultural, so assuming changing the difficulty won't change that. Might still be a good T3 cultural farm in the sense that you don't have to get into a recall loop. You don't even have to pull the lever to get more spawns. And it is F2P.

I took an epic auralock in on HC, and if it weren't for the fact that the Khyber Reavers are occasionally smart enough to back up a few steps out of the aura, I could have just left the room for a few hours and built up treasure bags lol. They were dropping planar spoors and small planar crystals.

Nice! I've added it to the "Demons" farm listing in the planner for tier 3 cultural. I also added a note about the respawning optional similar to how the "Goblinoids" farm for cultural tier 2 mentions the respawning city in Tear of Dhakaan.



I just now finished all the coding to calculate the supply, demand and essence value for all the collectables, plus I'm pretty much finished with the data. Tomorrow I'll post the initial tables so we can eyeball it and see what doesn't look right. There will absolutely have to be tweaks, I think.

[EllisDee37]

Actually, here's the raw data if you want to look it over now. When calculating the value I round it off to the nearest 25.

Value	Supply	Demand	Collectable
1950	245	41	Silver Bowl
1700	300	29	Ivory Scorpion Icon
1575	450	18	Silver Flame Hymnal
1550	250	32	Ornate Charm
1475	450	17	Scholarly Notes
1325	175	39	'Wavecrasher' Cargo Manifest
1175	225	27	Fragrant Drowshood
1175	178	34	Sparkling Dust
1125	150	39	Cryptmoss Worm
1050	450	12	House-Sealed Letter
950	150	33	Stone Fetish
925	122	39	Fractured Femur
900	150	31	Cryptmoss
850	272	16	Charred Soarwood
775	149	27	Academic Treatise
775	219	18	Archaic Logbook
750	245	16	Glass Phial
750	300	13	Polished Ore
700	149	24	Warehouse Ledger
625	89	36	Vial of Pure Water
600	80	38	Blister Beetle
575	225	13	Headsman Beetle
575	88	33	Khyber Prayer Pamphlet
525	245	11	Moonstone
475	225	11	Intact Spore Pod
450	75	31	Deadly Feverblanch
425	122	18	Pouch of Bone Fragments
400	33	63	Mortar and Pestle
375	175	11	Research Diary
350	80	22	Glowmoss Spore
350	80	22	Romantic Sonnet
350	47	37	Skull Fragment
325	80	21	Bloodfeast Fungus
325	47	36	Caravan Logbook
325	65	25	Lodestone
325	72	23	Singed Soarwood
325	40	43	Smoldering Ember
300	60	25	Bruised Spore Pod
300	40	37	Cryptmoss Worm Larva
300	47	33	Glittering Dust
300	178	9	Powdered Blood
275	40	36	Cryptic Message
250	60	21	Sour Darkcap
225	65	18	Blessed Candle
225	80	14	Runic Parchment
200	58	18	Ancient Text
200	33	30	Brass Censer
200	40	25	Chipped Bone Talisman
200	47	23	Phoenix Tavern Purchase Order
175	40	24	Mystical Formula
175	23	40	Page Torn from a Research Notebook
175	40	22	Withered Cryptmoss
150	24	33	Amber Vial
150	67	12	Flint Knife
150	40	18	Hairy Trumpet Mushroom
150	21	39	Ruddy Fungus
125	21	33	Slime Mold
125	20	34	Sweet Whitecap
100	65	8	Ceramic Bowl
75	21	20	Zygomycota Fungus
50	11	26	Crypt Moth
50	60	4	Duskbrood Trumpeter
0	0	19	Amulet of the Lost Empire
0	0	25	Amulet of the Six
0	0	22	Blade of the Dark Six
0	0	41	Funerary Token
0	0	27	Mark of the Keeper
0	0	9	Planar Spoor
0	65	0	Ritual Candle
0	0	26	Signet of the Devourer
0	0	21	Small Planar Crystal
0	0	42	Small Wooden Idol
0	0	35	String of Prayer Beads
0	21	0	Swaying Mushroom Cluster
0	80	0	Swaying Mushroom Spore Pod
0	245	0	Vial of Heavy Water

My initial thought is that some of these demand values have run wild. I'm thinking maybe cap the demand totals at the highest 5 shards for any given collectable. Using the "old" (current) version of my planner, look at some of the highest demand shards and what they're used for and see what you think. (Mortar and Pestle is the ultimate example.)

EDIT: You know, as I sit here and obsess over the numbers (my precious!!!) I'm thinking maybe cap the category contributions: Unlimited universals, 5 commons, 3 uncommons, 2 niche, 1 obsolete, 1 rarely used. So if a collectable is used for 10 niche effects it only counts as 2 effects. Something like that, anyway.

[SuperNiCd]

My initial thought is that some of these demand values have run wild. I'm thinking maybe cap the demand totals at the highest 5 shards for any given collectable. Using the "old" (current) version of my planner, look at some of the highest demand shards and what they're used for and see what you think. (Mortar and Pestle is the ultimate example.)

EDIT: You know, as I sit here and obsess over the numbers (my precious!!!) I'm thinking maybe cap the category contributions: Unlimited universals, 5 commons, 3 uncommons, 2 niche, 1 obsolete, 1 rarely used. So if a collectable is used for 10 niche effects it only counts as 2 effects. Something like that, anyway.

I commend and thank you on the time and thought you've put into this!

There's still something about the model/methodology that is making me question how accurate the valuations are going to be. So far, I've been unable to articulate it - maybe even to myself. So I'm going to try again, and maybe you or others can help either flesh it out put the concern to rest. Please bear with me through another wall o' text.

Let's start with demand. Demand is always going to be in the eye of the beholder, to some extent. We can say that an fragrant drowshood, for example, is worth X essences or Y shards. Someone might offer it for 2*X essences or 5*X essences. Will I buy it or make that trade even though the model says the value is X essences? I might. It really depends on my available time and tolerance for farming , and also the urgency with which I need it. Maybe also on how many extra essences I have saved up.

Moving on to supply. I think supply will be a moving target. Let's say for example that the most valuable collectible turns out to be ornate charms. Maybe we decide here that they're worth 10 shards each. That's a pretty good amount of astrals for an item that I can reliably farm out - no real challenge involved. I might decide to farm some in order to get some astrals. Maybe I decide to take 15-30 minutes each session to farm ornate charms, and within a little while, I'm happily earning X AS/day. Then a few more people on my server see this opportunity and decide to do the same thing as I did. When I go to post my next stack of ornate charms for X AS, I see there are already 3 other listings for it at that price. So I set my buyout one lower than that, because that's the only thing that will differentiate my listing. The next seller comes along, sees my listing at X-1 AS, and sets his buyout at X-2.

This continues until we drive the price down to the price of the 2nd highest value collectible at which point (if I am smart),I decide to start farming that instead - the 2nd highest valued collectible is now more valuable than ornate charms - on my server at this point in time.

So the supply is a moving target and the demand is at least somewhat subjective, personal, and variable over time. <-- This is the crux of my doubt - that we can produce static numbers for supply and demand that will be generally accepted and constant.

I think this is why I was trying to find a way to set the baselines as some function of opportunity cost (time). If we could somehow get a general acceptance of a few equations:

• 1 hour of questing produces ~700 essences
• 10k essences equals 100 AS
• X minutes of questing is equal to 1 minute of pure collectible farming, where X>1 because regular questing provides XP and is (I'd assume for most), fun. Collectible farming on the other hand is tedious, boring, and yields no rewards except collectibles.

If we could get agreement on those equations, I'm wondering if you haven't already done all the hard work, and the demand numbers could be left out of the model.

I would know that if I want to buy an ornate charm, the opportunity cost of farming it (time spent questing) is equivalent is X essences or Y shards. Anything > X or Y is a convenience charge, and I can decide if I'm willing to pay it. Anything less is a discount, probably based on market saturation or the seller's own personal over-supply, and I know it's a good deal. As a seller, I can decide how much of a discount or convenience up-charge I want to charge based on current conditions.

But either way, I know the value of the item's opportunity cost in AS, essences, and ratios to other collectibles, so at least everyone knows if the offered price is an up-charge or discount, and how much. As an aside, my guess is that most AH offerings will have some amount of convenience charge built in. Crafter to crafter exchanges may be closer to the stated rates.

What's more, if we can get this into absolutes (time=time), and you're going to put it into an application, we don't even have to agree on the equations! Maybe I agree that 10k essences = 100 AS, but I don't feel I can earn 700 essences/hour. I could change that value in an app, and it would tell me what the collectibles should be worth to me. Or if ULFO thinks 10k essences = 200 AS on his/her server, that number could also be changed by ULFO to reflect ULFO's experience. It also in a way future proofs it against a variety of game updates (new, better farms for a particular collectible excepted).

The one thing it doesn't do is produce a absolutely static list that everyone can look at to see the cost. But my concern if someone doesn't agree with an assumption, it invalidates the whole thing for them. So this way becomes more of a decision making tool instead of a price list.

Did I explain myself any better? And if so, thoughts?

[EllisDee37]

Let's start with demand. Demand is always going to be in the eye of the beholder, to some extent. We can say that an fragrant drowshood, for example, is worth X essences or Y shards. Someone might offer it for 2*X essences or 5*X essences. Will I buy it or make that trade even though the model says the value is X essences? I might. It really depends on my available time and tolerance for farming , and also the urgency with which I need it. Maybe also on how many extra essences I have saved up.

I don't share you concern on this point because this is a truism that applies to everything players trade or buy on the auction house, not just collectables. It applied to LDS and red scales back in the day, dwarven ingots when mortal fear was all the rage, etc...

Moving on to supply. I think supply will be a moving target. Let's say for example that the most valuable collectible turns out to be ornate charms. Maybe we decide here that they're worth 10 shards each. That's a pretty good amount of astrals for an item that I can reliably farm out - no real challenge involved. I might decide to farm some in order to get some astrals. Maybe I decide to take 15-30 minutes each session to farm ornate charms, and within a little while, I'm happily earning X AS/day. Then a few more people on my server see this opportunity and decide to do the same thing as I did. When I go to post my next stack of ornate charms for X AS, I see there are already 3 other listings for it at that price. So I set my buyout one lower than that, because that's the only thing that will differentiate my listing. The next seller comes along, sees my listing at X-1 AS, and sets his buyout at X-2.

This continues until we drive the price down to the price of the 2nd highest value collectible at which point (if I am smart),I decide to start farming that instead - the 2nd highest valued collectible is now more valuable than ornate charms - on my server at this point in time.

So the supply is a moving target and the demand is at least somewhat subjective, personal, and variable over time. <-- This is the crux of my doubt - that we can produce static numbers for supply and demand that will be generally accepted and constant.

I also don't share this concern because again, this is a universal truth. Think of it this way: Players already know that ornate charms have value, and they've already been doing this very thing.

I think of it like ticket scalping. Who's the big pop star right now? I'm an out of touch old guy, so let's say Katy Perry. I could go buy Katy Perry tickets and then sell them to kids who want to see her for a mark-up. I could keep doing this to earn more and more money if I wanted. But it's not really going to change the face value of the tickets.

Pretty much everyone who would do this has already been doing this.

If we could get agreement on those equations, I'm wondering if you haven't already done all the hard work, and the demand numbers could be left out of the model.

Demand numbers can never be left off the model, and a simple example shows why: You're never going to convince people that Moonstones are worth exactly the same as Glass Phials. They're both tier 3 Arcanes that appear in the same frequency in the same farms, but people want to craft Constitution more than they want to craft Combat Mastery. They just do.

What's more, if we can get this into absolutes (time=time), and you're going to put it into an application, we don't even have to agree on the equations! Maybe I agree that 10k essences = 100 AS, but I don't feel I can earn 700 essences/hour. I could change that value in an app, and it would tell me what the collectibles should be worth to me.

You can do this in my app. I had already added user-configurable settings in a data file called General.txt that currently looks like this:

' Frequency is the ratio of Uncommon / Common / Rare for all dispensers, as confirmed by a dev
Frequency: 0.75, 0.20, 0.05

' Any is the Any dispenser ratio of Arcane / Culture / Lore / Natural, as determined by testing
' Forum thread: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/484819
Any: 0.22, 0.50, 0.20, 0.08

' EssenceRate is the average essences per second from solo epic dailies (700 / 3600)
EssenceRate: 0.19444

The one thing it doesn't do is produce a absolutely static list that everyone can look at to see the cost. But my concern if someone doesn't agree with an assumption, it invalidates the whole thing for them. So this way becomes more of a decision making tool instead of a price list.

Again, I'm not seeing this train of thought. When I look on the ah for yellow-slot accessories, and I see some listed at 90k plat (9x more than I would pay for them) I don't think to myself "the whole auction house is invalidated for me."

Also, my goal for this entire project is to create a decision-making tool, not a price list. I thought it went without saying that people would look at the prices the same way they would look at auction house listings. Some you think are crazy, you'll go farm those yourself. Some are low, I'm definitely going to try and just buy those because these fools don't know how valuable they are to me. etc... etc...

I'm not trying to impose collectable values on an unwilling population. I'm trying to create a relative value guide for people to use to assess value of collectables they have no clue about ("How valuable are Caravan Logbooks?") by giving them a basic scale that relates back to collectables that already have an inherent value for them. (Fragrant Drowshood, Glass Phials, Ornate Charms)

[EllisDee37]

Here's how the values look if I only take the 5 highest demand values for any given collectable:

Value	Supply	Demand	Collectable
1575	450	18	Silver Flame Hymnal
1550	250	32	Ornate Charm
1475	450	17	Scholarly Notes
1425	245	30	Silver Bowl
1275	300	22	Ivory Scorpion Icon
1175	225	27	Fragrant Drowshood
1050	450	12	House-Sealed Letter
1000	150	34	Cryptmoss Worm
975	178	28	Sparkling Dust
950	175	28	'Wavecrasher' Cargo Manifest
850	272	16	Charred Soarwood
825	150	28	Cryptmoss
775	219	18	Archaic Logbook
750	245	16	Glass Phial
750	300	13	Polished Ore
700	150	24	Stone Fetish
625	149	22	Academic Treatise
625	122	26	Fractured Femur
575	225	13	Headsman Beetle
575	149	20	Warehouse Ledger
525	245	11	Moonstone
525	89	30	Vial of Pure Water
475	225	11	Intact Spore Pod
450	88	26	Khyber Prayer Pamphlet
425	80	28	Blister Beetle
425	122	18	Pouch of Bone Fragments
375	175	11	Research Diary
350	80	22	Romantic Sonnet
325	72	23	Singed Soarwood
300	80	19	Bloodfeast Fungus
300	60	25	Bruised Spore Pod
300	75	20	Deadly Feverblanch
300	65	24	Lodestone
300	47	32	Skull Fragment
275	80	17	Glowmoss Spore
275	178	8	Powdered Blood
250	47	26	Caravan Logbook
250	40	32	Cryptmoss Worm Larva
250	47	26	Glittering Dust
250	60	21	Sour Darkcap
225	40	28	Cryptic Message
225	80	14	Runic Parchment
200	58	18	Ancient Text
200	33	30	Brass Censer
200	33	30	Mortar and Pestle
175	65	14	Blessed Candle
175	40	22	Chipped Bone Talisman
175	47	20	Phoenix Tavern Purchase Order
175	40	22	Smoldering Ember
150	67	12	Flint Knife
150	40	18	Hairy Trumpet Mushroom
150	40	20	Mystical Formula
125	24	26	Amber Vial
125	23	30	Page Torn from a Research Notebook
125	40	17	Withered Cryptmoss
100	65	8	Ceramic Bowl
100	21	26	Ruddy Fungus
100	21	24	Slime Mold
100	20	24	Sweet Whitecap
75	21	18	Zygomycota Fungus
50	11	26	Crypt Moth
50	60	4	Duskbrood Trumpeter
0	0	19	Amulet of the Lost Empire
0	0	25	Amulet of the Six
0	0	18	Blade of the Dark Six
0	0	30	Funerary Token
0	0	24	Mark of the Keeper
0	0	9	Planar Spoor
0	65	0	Ritual Candle
0	0	25	Signet of the Devourer
0	0	21	Small Planar Crystal
0	0	24	Small Wooden Idol
0	0	20	String of Prayer Beads
0	21	0	Swaying Mushroom Cluster
0	80	0	Swaying Mushroom Spore Pod
0	245	0	Vial of Heavy Water

I think this looks immediately and obviously better than the previous chart, but now I'll check the results when using the second idea of limited contributions from the different demand values.

[EllisDee37]

While I do that, if anyone would like to try and farm a Silver Flame Hymnal from Mask of Deception on heroic casual to see if they actually drop in the realms, that'd be great. My numbers say it takes 16:15 to farm one there, so it's a painful test.

Figure click the cabinet 100 times and tally up what you get, stopping as soon as you pull one hymnal. It takes 1 minute per click, so, yeah. Not fun at all. On the plus side, if you also click the bookshelf for arcane (still 1 minute per run) you should end up with 10 glass phials after 100 runs, so there's at least some value for your troubles.

[SuperNiCd]

OK, I think you've successfully quelled my doubts. And I definitely see where the demand numbers can't be eliminated from the model now. Thanks for adding the additional perspective.

The list using the method of using only the 5 highest demand values definitely looks more sane. I've struggled with Silver Flame Hymnals in the past so I'm not surprised to find them near the top of the list. I'm a little surprised they're at the very top considering they have nothing in the universal slot. Wonder if some of these demand values having reasonable alternatives is a consideration. E.g. I might want a chaos proc weapon effect, but if silver flame hymnals are too hard to come by, I'd probably settle for a light weapon damage proc.

While I do that, if anyone would like to try and farm a Silver Flame Hymnal from Mask of Deception on heroic casual to see if they actually drop in the realms, that'd be great. My numbers say it takes 16:15 to farm one there, so it's a painful test.

I'm willing but not sure when I can get to it - possibly later today but can't commit to that yet. I'll check back and if no one else has beat me to it when I have a time slot for it, I'll do it. I could use some more phials anyway.

Nice! I've added it to the "Demons" farm listing in the planner for tier 3 cultural. I also added a note about the respawning optional similar to how the "Goblinoids" farm for cultural tier 2 mentions the respawning city in Tear of Dhakaan.

PS - EC would be the preferred difficulty BTW. HC only spawned one mob at a time, EC spawned 3 or 4 on each respawn.

[EllisDee37]

Here's the value chart when using the Weighted technique instead of Top 5:

Value	Supply	Demand	Collectable
1575	450	18	Silver Flame Hymnal
1550	250	32	Ornate Charm
1475	450	17	Scholarly Notes
1475	245	31	Silver Bowl
1175	225	27	Fragrant Drowshood
1125	150	39	Cryptmoss Worm
1050	450	12	House-Sealed Letter
875	300	15	Ivory Scorpion Icon
875	178	25	Sparkling Dust
850	272	16	Charred Soarwood
850	175	25	'Wavecrasher' Cargo Manifest
775	219	18	Archaic Logbook
750	245	16	Glass Phial
750	300	13	Polished Ore
725	150	25	Cryptmoss
575	225	13	Headsman Beetle
575	89	33	Vial of Pure Water
550	122	23	Fractured Femur
525	245	11	Moonstone
500	88	29	Khyber Prayer Pamphlet
500	150	17	Stone Fetish
500	149	17	Warehouse Ledger
475	225	11	Intact Spore Pod
425	149	15	Academic Treatise
425	122	18	Pouch of Bone Fragments
400	80	25	Blister Beetle
350	80	22	Romantic Sonnet
325	65	25	Lodestone
325	72	23	Singed Soarwood
300	60	25	Bruised Spore Pod
300	175	9	Research Diary
300	47	33	Skull Fragment
250	40	33	Cryptmoss Worm Larva
250	60	21	Sour Darkcap
225	80	15	Bloodfeast Fungus
225	80	14	Runic Parchment
200	58	18	Ancient Text
200	33	30	Brass Censer
200	47	23	Caravan Logbook
200	40	27	Cryptic Message
200	47	23	Glittering Dust
200	33	31	Mortar and Pestle
175	178	5	Powdered Blood
150	67	12	Flint Knife
150	80	9	Glowmoss Spore
150	40	18	Hairy Trumpet Mushroom
150	23	33	Page Torn from a Research Notebook
125	24	29	Amber Vial
125	65	9	Blessed Candle
125	40	15	Chipped Bone Talisman
125	75	9	Deadly Feverblanch
125	40	17	Smoldering Ember
100	65	8	Ceramic Bowl
75	40	9	Mystical Formula
75	47	9	Phoenix Tavern Purchase Order
75	21	19	Ruddy Fungus
75	21	17	Slime Mold
75	20	19	Sweet Whitecap
75	40	9	Withered Cryptmoss
75	21	17	Zygomycota Fungus
50	11	26	Crypt Moth
50	60	4	Duskbrood Trumpeter
0	0	15	Amulet of the Lost Empire
0	0	25	Amulet of the Six
0	0	17	Blade of the Dark Six
0	0	27	Funerary Token
0	0	17	Mark of the Keeper
0	0	9	Planar Spoor
0	65	0	Ritual Candle
0	0	25	Signet of the Devourer
0	0	17	Small Planar Crystal
0	0	19	Small Wooden Idol
0	0	11	String of Prayer Beads
0	21	0	Swaying Mushroom Cluster
0	80	0	Swaying Mushroom Spore Pod
0	245	0	Vial of Heavy Water

I like this one better than Top 5. Most values stayed the same, but not all. Compared to the Top 5 technique, the weighted values change the following:

Silver Bowl +50
Cryptmoss Worm +125
Ivory Scorpion Icon -400
Sparkling Dust -100
'Wavecrasher' Cargo Manifest -100
Cryptmoss -100
Vial of Pure Water +50
Fractured Femur -75
Khyber Prayer Pamphlet +50
Stone Fetish -200
Warehouse Ledger -75
Academic Treatise -200
Blister Beetle -25
Lodestone +25
Research Diary -75
Bloodfeast Fungus -75
Caravan Logbook -50
Cryptic Message -25
Glittering Dust -50
Powdered Blood -100
Glowmoss Spore -125
Page Torn from a Research Notebook +25
Blessed Candle -50
Chipped Bone Talisman -50
Deadly Feverblanch -175
Smoldering Ember -50
Mystical Formula -75
Phoenix Tavern Purchase Order -100
Ruddy Fungus -25
Slime Mold -25
Sweet Whitecap -25
Withered Cryptmoss -50

[EllisDee37]

I'm willing but not sure when I can get to it - possibly later today but can't commit to that yet. I'll check back and if no one else has beat me to it when I have a time slot for it, I'll do it. I could use some more phials anyway.

Any number of pulls you can stomach is welcome, and if I do the same we should be able to get a clear answer whether they drop or not. So if you start wanting to claw your eyes out by run 20, no worries, just post the 20 results and that's a 20-run head start for me.

PS - EC would be the preferred difficulty BTW. HC only spawned one mob at a time, EC spawned 3 or 4 on each respawn.

I don't actually list difficulties for treasure bag farms, I just point people to good quests / locations for farming. But I would think HE on an epic alt would be the best rate of return, preferably with a hireling for added scaling.


One of the delays posting the weighted value chart is that I added the ability for the end user to choose which technique to use, and also the # of values in the Top # technique to use, and the cap for each category for weighted by changing settings in General.txt. I'm pretty happy with it.

[EllisDee37]

I've struggled with Silver Flame Hymnals in the past so I'm not surprised to find them near the top of the list. I'm a little surprised they're at the very top considering they have nothing in the universal slot.

My reaction exactly. The biggest issue with hymnals is that their pool is so huge. The best farm I know of is Eyes of Stone, where you get 3 lore pulls in 90 seconds. That's not a terrible rate, but the pool of tier 3 lore is so large that it still takes 7:30 to farm up just one hymnal. Ouch!

Ideally we could find a better tier 3 lore farm. Even shaving it down 5 seconds (0:25 per lore pull instead of 0:30) it would get it down to 6:15, which is still bad but way better. Then their value would drop down to 1300, I think, depending on rounding. (Scholarly notes would also drop, since they're also tier 3 lore uncommon, and are used for doublestrike.)

[EllisDee37]

2 shrines in (so 24 runs -- 12 sprint boosts per shrine) and I can already say with confidence that silver flame hymnals don't drop in Mask of Deception heroic casual. I started with an empty collectable bag so I don't have to track what I pull, and here's what's in it now:

Arcane Tier 3
Common: 12 Ceramic Bowls, 5 Lodestones
Uncommon: 5 Glass Phials
Rare: 1 Crystal Decanter, 1 Stellar Orb

Lore Tier 4
Common: 19 Cryptic Messages
Uncommon: 5 Academic Treatises

Here's what's conspicuously absent:

Arcane Tier 3
Common: Singed Soarwood
Uncommon: Charred Soarwood, Moonstone
Rare: Lightning-Split Soarwood


If -- and this is a big if -- Moonstones only drop in Eberron, then mirror darkly becomes a fantastic glass phial farm since glass phials would be the only possible uncommon to drop from all 10 arcane dispensers.

I'm kind of digging just listening to music (which I don't do that often) as I run these, so I think I'll do another 24 hoping to not pull any Moonstones.

Booooooo! Five runs later:

(Standard): You obtain a Moonstone.