new ideal race for tempest

[the_one_dwarfforged]

so assuming you had 10 racial ap to spend, it would seem that human definitely stops being the best choice for a ranger.

the question then is, is horc or wf overall better? horc i think translates more easily from human and gains plenty of benefit from those 10 ap essentially for free and without any real need to spend more than that. wf though could possibly pull 6 ap from somewhere and get 15 additional mp. the problem with wf though i feel is that 6 ap is kind of pricey on a ranger but could be mitigated by not spending on survivalist since it wouldnt give prr in mithril body (according to the wiki anyway), but you are also down 2 feats compared to a human, and are paying a hamp penalty.

anyway. thoughts?

[FuzzyDuck81]

I tend not to worry about pure melee damage dealing so much & prefer extra utility & capabilities.
Elf - displacement dragonmark - will cost you a feat (or 2 if you take extend) and 2 AP beyond the free ones, but the duration vs. any scroll or even greensteel clicky is worth it IMO
half elf - with the dilettante AP costs reduced, easy access to a whole bunch of useful scrolls & wands without worrying about UMD (meaning you can actually use them while levelling!) can be really good
Shadar-kai - either keep the initial rogue level for trap skills or LR it out. The cores give the shadow phase & shadow jaunt abilities which are really rather nice.
Morninglord - probably want to LR out the initial cleric level, but rejuvenation of dawn & blessing of amaunator are great, a decent duration (mass) death ward is far less hassle than relying on the shorter-duration visor & that'll only cost you 1 AP beyond the free ones.

Since rangers are pretty flexible with feats, you could even invest in extra metamagics & go for drow to get the newly improved darkfire SLA, or dragonborn & have the fun of dragonbreath, even wings with some AP investment.

[FranOhmsford]

Are we really having this conversation already?

How long is it going to be seriously before enough players have enough racial past lives for this to be a thing - 1 year, 2?

[Saekee]

Are we really having this conversation already?

How long is it going to be seriously before enough players have enough racial past lives for this to be a thing - 1 year, 2?

I suspect that you will see people posting in a couple of months that they did it already

[FranOhmsford]

I suspect that you will see people posting in a couple of months that they did it already

Yeah, a handful maybe but are we really going to base the standard on.....Oh sorry, I don't know what I was thinking there - Of course we are!

[unbongwah]

How long is it going to be seriously before enough players have enough racial past lives for this to be a thing - 1 year, 2?

If Racial TR has same 3-day cooldown as HTR, then 30 * 3 = 90 days after U35 go live before this conversation is relevant.

If there is no CD, then presuming a 10K XP/min rate, 380 minutes per life * 30 RRs = 11,400 minutes -> 8 days non-stop. So let's say twice that to account for sleep etc.

Or was that question rhetorical?

[ValariusK]

Thing is, human has already been pushed way down the stack, since the damage boost doesn't stack anymore. Frankly at +20 nonstacking its more of an AP tax than anything else outside of really low levels, where rangers are plenty strong anyway. I suspect that Halfling will become the new meta for tempests, as you get a lot more for a dex build and bonus sneak attack dice than a human does. The bonus to all saves all the time doesn't hurt either. The bonus feat and bonus skill points are of debatable worth for a ranger---especially a pure ranger. The extra feat normally winds up giving you +2 MP.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

wow guys. well, first off i am not one of the people to whom this is going to be applying anytime soon. i dont play enough, and i dont play hard enough, and i dont like tring, so you may ask why such a person is the one who started this conversation. its a thought exercise. we are going to get to the point where this conversation is indeed relevant. i just wanted to see what other people thought about it.

lets just keep things on topic from now on?

I tend not to worry about pure melee damage dealing so much & prefer extra utility & capabilities.
Elf - displacement dragonmark - will cost you a feat (or 2 if you take extend) and 2 AP beyond the free ones, but the duration vs. any scroll or even greensteel clicky is worth it IMO
half elf - with the dilettante AP costs reduced, easy access to a whole bunch of useful scrolls & wands without worrying about UMD (meaning you can actually use them while levelling!) can be really good
Shadar-kai - either keep the initial rogue level for trap skills or LR it out. The cores give the shadow phase & shadow jaunt abilities which are really rather nice.
Morninglord - probably want to LR out the initial cleric level, but rejuvenation of dawn & blessing of amaunator are great, a decent duration (mass) death ward is far less hassle than relying on the shorter-duration visor & that'll only cost you 1 AP beyond the free ones.

Since rangers are pretty flexible with feats, you could even invest in extra metamagics & go for drow to get the newly improved darkfire SLA, or dragonborn & have the fun of dragonbreath, even wings with some AP investment.

elf will still not be worth playing for people who have 10 racial ap, since those people will very likely have plenty of displacement clickies. i know i do at least. plus displacement has reduced value in reaper anyway.

half elf actually is a good idea i had forgotten, with free ap and reduced dilettante costs, rogue dile is looking pretty nice right now. forget that clr dile stuff though, massive waste with umd so available.

i had also considered sdk but i feel the potential free (and not quite free) dps gains available from racial trees outweighs choosing a race that you have to pay to get rid of a class level for just for a jump ability. i do consider it to be one of the top tier utility choices one could make with their extra ap.

Thing is, human has already been pushed way down the stack, since the damage boost doesn't stack anymore. Frankly at +20 nonstacking its more of an AP tax than anything else outside of really low levels, where rangers are plenty strong anyway. I suspect that Halfling will become the new meta for tempests, as you get a lot more for a dex build and bonus sneak attack dice than a human does. The bonus to all saves all the time doesn't hurt either. The bonus feat and bonus skill points are of debatable worth for a ranger---especially a pure ranger. The extra feat normally winds up giving you +2 MP.

at the moment human is actually still the best race for ranger. you gain a free feat and skill points, and the racial damage boost is still good because you can sustain some level of boosting for longer since running out of boosts is more of a reality in reaper.

with 10 free ap though halfling actually does become quite a good choice. i hadnt even considered it because its not something id ever play, but it could be very strong.

[Eth]

For high level content, especially high skull reaper...
With double boosting gone elf (and sunelf, but for tempest elf is clearly better) are likely the highest DPS races. Elven accuracy.
Hitting on everything except a 1 is not achievable (pierce the gloom buff aside, that's only short term). This basically means you get one more attack per 20 hits on these races, that would otherwise be a grazing hit.

I welcome this, since elfs look cool.

[Morroiel]

For high level content, especially high skull reaper...
With double boosting gone elf (and sunelf, but for tempest elf is clearly better) are likely the highest DPS races. Elven accuracy.
Hitting on everything except a 1 is not achievable (pierce the gloom buff aside, that's only short term). This basically means you get one more attack per 20 hits on these races, that would otherwise be a grazing hit.

I welcome this, since elfs look cool.

Elf or Helf - I think on tempest helf probably wins because of sneak attack advantage but I'm not entirely sure.

[Eth]

Elf or Helf - I think on tempest helf probably wins because of sneak attack advantage but I'm not entirely sure.

Elfs get 2% more accuracy though.
Due to the way rounding works for the formular (nearest 5%), 4% best case means you hit on one roll more than you normally would, but sometimes it does nothing, while 6% means you always hit on one die more, while sometimes it will even put you up two brackets (e.g. after your tohit vs target armor class + 20% from proficiency + 5% from precision you end up with a percentage of 57%. This would normally round down to 55%. With 6% from elven accuracy this would put you to 63% rounding up to 65%).

Seems very close. I'd think elf for Dex tempest, helf for Str?

Edit: Can HElfs even get 4%? Not sure how to understand the picks. Does the 5th core exclude accuracy if you took it at Core #3? I've never taken all the cores in HElf, lol.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

For high level content, especially high skull reaper...
With double boosting gone elf (and sunelf, but for tempest elf is clearly better) are likely the highest DPS races. Elven accuracy.
Hitting on everything except a 1 is not achievable (pierce the gloom buff aside, that's only short term). This basically means you get one more attack per 20 hits on these races, that would otherwise be a grazing hit.

I welcome this, since elfs look cool.

see thats another thing i totally forgot until someone mentioned helf and i looked at the enhancements and thought about that, but then forgot to bring up.

this is why i started this thread.

this does raise a point now that youve compared it directly to double boosting though. if double boosting continued to be a thing, you would feel that that is the superior dps choice to % accuracy bonuses? if that is the case, wouldnt warforged now be the top balls to the wall dps race in your opinion, or do you consider those 6 additional ap youd have to spend in the racial tree to be too prohibitive?

[Morroiel]

Elfs get 2% more accuracy though.
Due to the way rounding works for the formular (nearest 5%), 4% best case means you hit on one roll more than you normally would, but sometimes it does nothing, while 6% means you always hit on one die more, while sometimes it will even put you up two brackets (e.g. after your tohit vs target armor class + 20% from proficiency + 5% from precision you end up with a percentage of 57%. This would normally round down to 55%. With 6% from elven accuracy this would put you to 63% rounding up to 65%).

Seems very close. I'd think elf for Dex tempest, helf for Str?

Edit: Can HElfs even get 4%? Not sure how to understand the picks. Does the 5th core exclude accuracy if you took it at Core #3? I've never taken all the cores in HElf, lol.

You can get 4% with helf (I have it on one of my toons).

Yeah I think I'd need to run dps calcs before I could say one way or another. Just wanted to mention that helf is a contender becaue of accuracy and then sneak dmg bonuses. But I doubt anything comes close to helf/elf though.

[Vish]

30 lives later there's prob gonna be a new race

I would say human
Because heal amp is where it's at
In reaper

[Eth]

see thats another thing i totally forgot until someone mentioned helf and i looked at the enhancements and thought about that, but then forgot to bring up.

this is why i started this thread.

this does raise a point now that youve compared it directly to double boosting though. if double boosting continued to be a thing, you would feel that that is the superior dps choice to % accuracy bonuses? if that is the case, wouldnt warforged now be the top balls to the wall dps race in your opinion, or do you consider those 6 additional ap youd have to spend in the racial tree to be too prohibitive?

For tempest specifically warforged can take the usual capstone+crit from DWS+KTA while having 16 APs left. Would require a minimum of 84 AP (more is obviously better to pick up more tiers in KTA/some more stuff from DWS).

Elf cores take up 7 points. So comparing apples to apples that always leaves elf with leeway to spend 9 points the WF can't. Like 6 MP are easily taken from versatile adept from harper.
Then there's killer and survivalist from DWS (you can only take them on a WF if you go all the way on racial PL).

So you had to weigh 9 MP vs. whatever else you take with the free AP on the elf.
Now you'd have to do the math if one extra non-crit hit per 20 hits is more damage than boosting all your other hits with 9 MP (which is rather simplified how to look at it, see above comment).

Considering WF also get a healing penalty (I don't consider repairing a valid strategy for higher skull reaper), it doesn't look to good for the WF.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Now you'd have to do the math if one extra non-crit hit per 20 hits is more damage than boosting all your other hits with 9 MP (which is rather simplified how to look at it, see above comment).

well i was specifically referring to this.

pre boosting nerf the apparently universally unquestioned (afaik) consensus was that double dmg boosting was the way to go for max dmg. but if 6% accuracy bonus is so valuable that your gut reaction was that its the obvious best choice over permanent +15 mp, then im curious as to why ive never seen really anyone express the belief that elf could possibly be superior to human at all before the nerf.

as for exactly how much mp you are getting relative to other builds, i feel going as low as 9 is really generous to other races. theres good stuff in the tempest and stalker trees that make me compulsively always spend more than the absolute minimum there, so i personally am only getting 1 mp from harper with my enhancement set up.

[Eth]

pre boosting nerf the apparently universally unquestioned (afaik) consensus was that double dmg boosting was the way to go for max dmg.

I don't know (honestly, I haven't done the math), maybe that premise was wrong all the time?
That's one of the issues when you are testing on dojo kobolds, it doesn't factor in to-hit at all.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

I don't know (honestly, I haven't done the math), maybe that premise was wrong all the time?
That's one of the issues when you are testing on dojo kobolds, it doesn't factor in to-hit at all.

exactly. just kind of a, "hmm, oh wow" moment.

[Steve_Howe]

I suspect that you will see people posting in a couple of months that they did it already

I guess there's still a functioning Otto's dupe, then, huh?

[scipiojedi]

so assuming you had 10 racial ap to spend, it would seem that human definitely stops being the best choice for a ranger.

the question then is, is horc or wf overall better? horc i think translates more easily from human and gains plenty of benefit from those 10 ap essentially for free and without any real need to spend more than that. wf though could possibly pull 6 ap from somewhere and get 15 additional mp. the problem with wf though i feel is that 6 ap is kind of pricey on a ranger but could be mitigated by not spending on survivalist since it wouldnt give prr in mithril body (according to the wiki anyway), but you are also down 2 feats compared to a human, and are paying a hamp penalty.

anyway. thoughts?

Halfling. Always halfling.