Random Dungeons Old School Simple Version

[Wonedream]

Here I am drooling more:

"Upcoming online game No Man's Sky takes things one step further by procedurally generating entire planets for you to explore. Every planet in the game will be unique, featuring various different environments and topographical combinations. The developers are even claiming that each planet's indigenous flora and fauna will be procedurally generated and entirely unique to that world. The potential for amazing combat and exploration mechanics in such a system is staggering, especially when you consider that the plan is to throw these planets into a persistent online universe. When you explore a planet, that will reportedly affect the online database for other players to see. You could perhaps find someone's crashed ship or stumble upon a forest someone burned down. Of course, this also means that if anyone decides to draw lewd things in the sand, then you'll also have the misfortune of seeing that masterpiece, but I'll gloss over that downside for now!"

I could almost cry when I imagine DDO doing this with a Planescape update! OH MY O.O... REALLY!!! YOU LOVE US THAT MUCH O.O!!!!

Just imagine that: now you can take your ship floating through space to a new world, land it like DDO star trek... jump off the ship... run around some planet you never seen before, fight and explore until you reach some odd looking cave... go into odd looking cave.. and this is all being made up on the the spot for you as you go out further.

It sounds to me like Procedural Generation Systems is the new Dungeon Master.. but it needs brains to work out its logic and probabilities, and how these might vary depending on where you are at the time. But, at last, we could explore Eberron like never before if this was done, maybe they could even do something with the water since there is so much vast ocean floor to be explored.

Can you imagine travelling great distances out into the vast ocean floor of Eberron, swimming and fighting sea monsters, and setting up land marks to teleport to so you can get back to the marketplace when you need to, then teleport back to the distance (made possible through many instances, some having their logic change as the map tells there is no more forest and now swamps... for example) so you do not need to repeat the 100 instances it took to reach that distance.

Planescape Quests could have you going to a planet in some other plane, taking your ship there, and landing, finding quest. The objective could be a set path that forces you into the unknown. A NPC in town give you a quest, but in order to complete it you must go to planet X located deep within plane Y and when you get there you must find dungeon Z and then locate Boss W who is guarding item V which you need to complete the quests and get your reward from npc who gave you quest way back in the town you started. Quests can be set up to force us to go into these unknown places, to traverse across twisted forests, unseen mountain ranges, and dark ocean depths just to reach the entrance!


I will keep hammering away at this idea, I would like to think this thread provides a lot of useful insight for the production of such Grandeur!

[Memnir]

Just imagine that: now you can take your ship floating through space to a new world, land it like DDO star trek...
Planescape Quests could have you going to a planet in some other plane, taking your ship there, and landing, finding quest.

You have confused Planescape for Spelljammer.

Outside of that - the idea sounds "meh" at best, mostly for the unreality of proceduralally generated anything happening in this game. And having played No Man's Sky - I hope it never does.

[Wonedream]

You have confused Planescape for Spelljammer.

Outside of that - the idea sounds "meh" at best, mostly for the unreality of proceduralally generated anything happening in this game. And having played No Man's Sky - I hope it never does.

Yeah I get those two confused all the time :P Both are awesome though, I would like to see both and both fit into this topic, one would involve a Procedure Generation system for the Material Plane where Eberron is located (Spell Jammer) which would turn DDO from a marketplace into a Universe itself.

The other (Planescape) would have different Universes with different probabilities and logic for their procedural generations, but would essentially turn DDO from a Universe into a Multiverse.

And THAT, my friend, is HUGE!!!

I haven't played those games, but the direction they are aiming for is the future of gaming itself. No need to debate, it won't change the masses. So I won't bother.

Even if these are failed at what they are trying to achieve, they are aiming in the right direction. And beware of the one the gets it right... they will reap huge rewards for that.

Also, maybe you wouldn't like it. But I would like total new options like being able to take ship to other worlds. Remember, you can stay wherever you want, but what makes the game better is that others are not forced to stay there with you because they are SQUEEZED together into a tiny constrained reality, but because of other reasons. What if DDO was just Korthos Island, would you be happiest then? Would you say.. "I think adding a harbor place will spread us out too thin..."

Well, there is only one way they could expand DDO to make it seem as big a place as it pretends to be, and that is using a some sort of procedural generation system because no way the Devs can develop every layer of the Abyss, but you know what..

I WANT ACCESS TO EVERY FREAKING LAYER... yes, I want to have the FREEDOM to cast a gate spell, and jump through it, and end up on layer 666 where some ****ed up **** might happen.. or layer 123.. or maybe I go to Mechanus.. whatever.. but I want a bigger reality! You and ANYONE else can meh at the idea all day long, but I won't blink or be phased one bit. And I KNOW if a good version is provided, where I will go, meh or no meh. But it would have to blend in a good fighting system which DDO has, and most games do no have. If I find a game that gives both a big reality that feels like a Universe and a great fighting system like DDO has, I am there!

Let's hope DDO leads the Procedural Generation Gaming Industry (which is right now a baby dragon that will get very VERY big) before finding itself under anyone's shadow.

[bsquishwizzy]

So...we've gone from random dungeons that you'll never see happen in DDO, to random worlds / universes that you'll never see happen in DDO.

I think you highly underestimate what it would take (and overestimate what you'd receive) for all of these dreams you've got. Aside from developer time, there is such a thing as technological limits, and economic constraints.
DDO is not being hosted on a NSA-style warehouse of nitrogen-cooled supercomputers with hundreds of terabytes of memory, nor do they have unlimited funding to go off on some deep skunkworks project to make SkyNet its plaything.

I'm all for spitballing things and dreaming, but I think you've gone a little overboard at this point. Just sayin'.

[Wonedream]

So...we've gone from random dungeons that you'll never see happen in DDO, to random worlds / universes that you'll never see happen in DDO.

I think you highly underestimate what it would take (and overestimate what you'd receive) for all of these dreams you've got. Aside from developer time, there is such a thing as technological limits, and economic constraints.
DDO is not being hosted on a NSA-style warehouse of nitrogen-cooled supercomputers with hundreds of terabytes of memory, nor do they have unlimited funding to go off on some deep skunkworks project to make SkyNet its plaything.

I'm all for spitballing things and dreaming, but I think you've gone a little overboard at this point. Just sayin'.

The way your imagination is putting this together would indeed mean it is impossible. The wrong approach will always guarantee failure. To develop a Universe would be easier then it sounds but to store it would indeed not be possible. You can get you home PC to start generating random dungeons, that is how easy that part is. With the right program, you could get your computer to generate random landscapes. A random dungeon is basically a random landscape underground.

It has been discussed how easy it would be to generate a randomized dungeon, and many very simply methods have been provided based on things the Dev team has already done in modules we have seen. So this part we know is possible and can be done right now.

Before it would be possible to create a procedural generation program that can create a DDO Multiverse (you said Universe.. no... no... MULTIVERSE!!! Haven't you read Manual of the Planes?) working out dungeon logic is a prerequisite. Why? Because the computer will need to be able to generate the insides of the places you go to and it will need to know which logic to apply to its probability encounter charts along with dungeon style and content potential.

Before a good dungeon randomizer system can be developed, a simple one needs to be developed and better understood. A simple one won't give as much variation, but can still be fun, thus it could be introduced into the game countless different ways, I use the Old School theme since it is my favorite example and would be loads of fun going into to search for study papers to get education bonuses (all in the thread).

One simple dungeon provides us with a lot of fun, but no universe. Its dungeons would however, surprise us every time, and that is something I miss. Since it is possible to have different themes, they would want to add 1 or 2 more simple versions, but experiment with different variables and methods to learn more about what is going on and how to fit this together. It gets easier each time as learning is inevitable.

After getting comfortable with a few simple versions, they would want to tackle the advanced dungeon bit system and start with a library of 10 really simply dungeon cubic bits start getting just 1 to randomly put itself in snap position to the next. After getting just 1 down, they start working out a simple row. Getting 5 to snap in a row, to create a long hallway with a room randomly showing up in between. After getting this part down, they work on branching east and west. Then up and down, so they can then have an advanced dungeon spawning randomly at the touch of a bottom. They would want to work with heavy constraints at first, telling computer no more then 5. Then they can start to set up the branching and terminal system that will have its variables modified and constrained by specified variables. All this has been explained. This is also something they can do.

After creation a dungeon in its final state and putting it in market where we start playing it, these dungeons are NOT NOT NOT getting saved. After we leave, they are deleted from existence. It would be insane to try to save all the generated random dungeons people make!!!

And this is also true for a system that would make a Universe possible to explore without actually making a Universe.

Once the dungeon systems are mastered... making the Dev team true Dungeon Masters!!! :P... then one of the key ingredients is now ready. Using the advanced system it is possible to create libraries and logic perimeters that will fit any scenerio. Need a hell dungeon? Need a hell underground city? Need a hell cave? Need an abyssmal underwater cave? Need a mineshaft in Archeron? All of this can be easily added if the variable system is set up right as I explained in the thread earlier. So now you can go inside any place you want endlessly...

And that already gives us a Universe interiors to explore.


Repeat all this now for the Landscape system and you got a Universe within reach but not using a lot of resources, and generation variation for great travel.

It would work out the same way. Dev team works out simple landscape systems that can be applied to Eberron... random islands way out in the ocean... a forest of twisting trees... desert sands... or try tackling hills and mountains. I will have to give this part more thought and investigation, but I know it can be done, especially a simple version.

They work out a few more even faster then the first since they can use the procedures from the first to stand upon. Then they work out an advanced system. But I have not asked myself about landscape and outside/exterior methods. Now that you say it is impossible, I am tempted to peer at it and see if it can be made easy.

First I would need to ask myself what a DDO Multiverse would need?

A - It would need to be able to provide interiors to the places we explore.
B - It would need to be able to provide exterior regions for us to traverse along.
C - It would need to be able to differentiate both interior and exterior based on location so it can determine proper probable logic.

D - It would have to decide to either store these provided placed or delete them after use. Deletion is the only choice, since we do not have SkyNet to store the 1000s of modules that would be generated over time.

That is it. With these processes it would be possible to generate a universe that can be very different from one place to the next, with places to explore and go into. Or even off to.

DDO Multiverse as I understand it has its outer planes, elemental planes, and other planes that are not of the material plane itself and the Scions at lvl 30 are like bonds to these places for the powers inherent.

So before I tell myself it is impossible I look at what this Multiverse would then need.

Material Plane

Fire
Water
Earth
Air

Ether
Astral

Feywild
Shadowfell
Mechanus
Celestia
Elysium
Aborea
Limbo

These ones are not included as Scion Choices but would be totally expected by everyone familiar with Dungeons and Dragons. Hades might be negiotable, the I hear referrence and see referrence to hell and the abyss so much that it would be a terrible mistake not to include them. They are some of the hottest spots for adventuer there is!
Infernal Hell
Abyss
Hades


So what we see now are Planes, each its own Universe. And before we can dream of accessing this, we got to lock down on a single plane, so we have a system of variables to work with that can be altered and applied to create other planes that will act differently. So we got to focus on one first, obvious choice is the material plane.


DDO can turn into something way out and wild, having the best combat system, and the best environment... it would rule all online games!

The Material Plane needs to be able to generate the environment of the world where we play. So what does this environment include?
Old School Mechanics...

-Plains
-Forest
-Seas
-Hills
-Swamps
-Deserts
-Jungle
-Volcanic
-Badlands
-Ruins
-City


Each of these would have have their own variable systems so they came out different each time, but also produced interesting landscape shapes to travel through. Once their logics and methods are worked out you can use these to create a world like Eberron, with Seas, Forest... etc.

Travelling all around the world then could work on known areas and explorer areas and wilderness. A coordinate system is used like GPS to determine where you are on the planet. If the coordinated say you are in the Marketplace, that means you are in the market place. If you step out into the city and go to an explorer area, you would be in the coordinates of another static zone. If you wandered off to one side of the zone, game could give you new option and warning (you are about to travel into the vast unexplored wilderness. Do you want to go on). If you press enter you would end up in a coordinate that now tells computer you are in a new area never seen before, it would look at the master land map of Eberron, and if the place where you where had coordinated overlapping a forest or desert on the master land map then it would generate a desert or forest for you to pass through. It would be big enough that it would take some time to get to the other side, where you might get attacked along the way.

Once you get to the other end of the landscaped random environment you would get another warning telling you that you are travelling yet further out into the unknown. If you accept, your coordinated change to that of new position, and again computer checks master land map to see you get more forest (big forest region on global map :P)... and you find yourself travelling through forest this way for a long long time, as if... you where really walking across an entire planet! But it isn't really getting any bigger.. it just seems way bigger now! All these zones you pass through are generated for your experience then deleted. It won't matter much when a Multiverse is set up, most players aren't going to go back to Korthos ever for example unless they TR and have no other choice. I do not see any lvl 30s there at all though for a good reason. These are the vague places no one lives (from the city that is) and no one goes to or hardly ever. So they do not need to be stored. Using this allows DDO to stitch together a place as large as they want with static zones where places like the Harbor are and vast distances in between being filled with adventure of their own, also knowing they exist (by access at least) makes everything seem so much more real... like you are in a big big world (like the real one is :P).

DDO would have to work this out for one world first. But before even bothering with landscape systems, there is no point at all if there is no interior systems prepared in advance.

"You spot a cave entrance underneath the huge rock formations (all randomly generated.. as you travel out into new places)... you enter cave... nothing happens because Dev Team didn't work out interior systems... you shake your fist at the sky and curse the Dev team!"

It won't work. So before I go too much into illustrating how to do this, Ill stop to say it requires preparations and foundations. Interior systems should be developed before exterior systems.

Once they work out and figure out a single world... Eberron... they can alter variables and now start making new worlds on a whim. They can even set up a star system that would have us sailing our ships Spell Jammer style (DDO would muscle in on Star Treks territory then :P) sailing and having space pirate wars or going to new planets that could be randomly generated on the spot... then deleted when we leave or simply have certain coordinated stored so it is still that big planet of water everytime you go there. I think sailing ships through space sounds like something risky, for high levels only... massive space monsters... Dreadnaughts... not for newbs!

If the logic is worked out for the Material Plane, using a coordinate system, and reduction system along with a probability system Spell Jammer would be possible, and it would make production of the other Planes a breeze because none of them are more complex then the material plane, they are all much simpler really.

I see it is possible, and if it did happen it would make DDO the BIGGEST GAME ONLINE :P I might come back later and go over landscape methods more carefully, this is all at a glance, but yeah, it is possible, and no, you do no need a super computer to do it with, I bet a commodre 64 could pull it off even though its graphics wouldn't be so great, and it would take a bit longer to load and obviously a lot of programs wouldnt fit on Commodre, but if you set up a variable system, reduction system, and probability logic system and wrote it into a simple 3d program, you could get a commodre 64 to create a seemingly endless universe even though it really isnt there. The right approach is key to success!

[Annex]

So...we've gone from random dungeons that you'll never see happen in DDO, to random worlds / universes that you'll never see happen in DDO.

In Lord of the Rings Online, Beornings started as a detailed class proposal by a single person. Many people said it would never happen.

In Lord of the Rings Online, many people asked for Cosmetic Weapons. The developers said it was not possible.

In Dungeons and Dragons Online, Reaper Difficulty started as a player proposal. Many people said it would never happen.

Those are a few I can think of off the top of my head.

.....

Even a modest version of Random Dungeons would make a wonderful addition to DDO. I know some people feel that Random Dungeons _never_ generate novel encounters that require player thinking and skill to overcome. In my opinion, the Monster Champion system overwhelmingly refutes that assertion (even if you do not like them). Random dungeons really just add random terrain to existing monster randomization systems.

Let us say such a system includes dungeons of 6 lengths--Very Short (4 rooms; max 1d4), Short (12 rooms; max 2d6), Medium (24 rooms; max 3d8), Long (40 rooms; max 4d10), Very Long (60 rooms; max 5d12), and Huge (120 rooms!; max 6x20). One half of all rooms contain monsters. The other half contain window dressing, treasure, traps, or non-threatening encounters. Each type of dungeon awards a special currency--4 sided dice, 6 sided dice, 8 sided dice, 10 sided dice, 12 sided dice, and 20 sided dice. Players trade dice for equipment, cosmetic items, and pets, all of which involve some element of exploration or randomization.

Sample Random Dungeon Barter Items:
1) Speckled Egg
...Cost: 2d4 + 2d6 + 2d8 + 2d10 + 2d12 + 2d20 (Die Range 12 to 120)
...Minimum Level 1; Bound to Account; When purchased and used, a Speckled Egg hatches one of 12 new BOUND creature companions.
...12: Gold Bear Cub
...13 - 15: Silver Panther Cub
...16 - 20: Copper Iron Defender
...21 - 28: Black Iron Golem
...29 - 49: White Water Elemental
...50 - 70: Blue Earth Elemental
...71 - 91: Green Fire Elemental
...92 - 103: Red Air Elemental
...104 - 111: Purple Tressym
...112 - 116: Pink Wolf Pup
...117 - 119: Marble Gelatinous Cube with numbers on sides
...120: Striped Pink and White Pseudo Dragon
...(Substitute whatever creature companions work best. The colors correspond to those commonly used for dice.)
..."This rather large egg feels warm to the touch and something moves inside. The occupant probably wants out."
...Edit 3/22/17: Changed UNBOUND to BOUND, thus requiring a player to use the system to gain the rewards.
2) Robe of Exploration; Leather Armor of Exploration; Chain Mail of Exploration; Plate Armor of Exploration
..."This unusually light, sturdy armor looks rather well made for walking long distances. It also provides superior range of movement when negotiating difficult terrain or climbing."
3) Coiled Rope with Grappling Hook
...Cost: 4d4 + 4d6 + 4d8 + 4d10 + 4d12 + 4d20
...Belt; Minimum Level 3; Bound to Account; Feather Fall; Dimension Door 1/rest
..."Seasoned adventurers plan ahead, allowing them to get out of whatever they got into."
4) Atlas of Xendrik
...Cost: 10d4 + 10d6 + 10d8 + 10d10 + 10d12 + 10d20
...Trinket: Minimum Level 20; Bound to Account; When used, displays a map of Xendrik with points of interest including Stormreach, Gianthold; Three Barrel Cove, Atraxia's Haven, Sorrowdusk Isle, The Ruin of Threnel, The Sands of Menechtarun, and so forth. Selecting a location teleports the character to the entry point for that wilderness area. This map works like the Key to Eveningstar with an equally long cool down timer. The map only includes Stormreach and major wilderness areas on the continent of Xendrik. It does not allow travel to singular dungeons or Eveningstar.
...Reference: http://ddowiki.com/page/File:Worldmap_Xendrik.jpg
..."This handy book of high quality maps shows exactly how to get to wherever you want to go."
...Edit 3/22/17: Added much more information about this item and changed name.
5) Bottled Smoke
...Cost: 1d4
...Grenade; Explodes without damage to create a Fog Cloud.
..."This glass philter contains a noxious mixture of alchemical reagents. When broken, the contents quickly expands into a swirling bank of thick smoke, obscuring vision until it dissipates."
6) Firecracker
...Cost: 1d4
...Grenade; Explodes without damage creating a Noisemaker effect.
..."This glass bulb contains two chambers holding acrid black and yellow liquids. When hurled at a hard surface it shatters, causing a very loud explosion as the contents mix."
7) Spelunker's Eye Visor
...Cost: Varies
...Goggles; Minimum Level 3; Bound to Account; Spot +6; Search +6; Detect Secret Door 3/day
...Goggles; Minimum Level 7; Tier I; Bound to Account; Spot +7; Search +7; Detect Secret Door 5/day; Blindness Immunity
...Goggles; Minimum Level 7; Tier II; Bound to Account; Spot +9; Search +9; Detect Secret Door 5/day; Blindness Immunity; Deadly +3
...Goggles Minimum Level 7; Tier III; Bound to Account; Spot +11; Search +11; Detect Secret Door 5/day; Blindness Immunity; Deadly +4; Green Augment Slot
...Goggles Minimum Level 11; Tier I; Bound to Account; Spot +9; Search +9; Detect Secret Door 5/day; Blindness Immunity; Deadly +4
...Goggles Minimum Level 11; Tier II; Bound to Account; Spot +11; Search +11; Detect Secret Door 5/day; Blindness Immunity; Deadly +4
...Goggles Minimum Level 11; Tier III; Bound to Account; Spot +13; Search +13; Detect Secret Door 5/day; Blindness Immunity; Deadly +5; Green Augment Slot
...Goggles Minimum Level 15; Tier I; Bound to Account; Spot +12; Search +12; True Seeing; Blindness Immunity; Deadly +5
...Goggles Minimum Level 15; Tier II; Bound to Account; Spot +14; Search +14; True Seeing; Blindness Immunity; Deadly +5
...Goggles Minimum Level 15; Tier III; Bound to Account; Spot +16; Search +16; True Seeing; Blindness Immunity; Deadly +6; Green Augment Slot
...Goggles Minimum Level 20; Tier I; Bound to Account; Spot +16; Search +16; True Seeing; Blindness Immunity; Deadly +7
...Goggles Minimum Level 20; Tier II; Bound to Account; Spot +18; Search +18; True Seeing; Blindness Immunity; Deadly +9; Clear Augment Slot
...Goggles Minimum Level 20; Tier III; Bound to Account; Spot +20; Search +20; True Seeing; Blindness Immunity; Deadly +11; Clear Augment Slot; Green Augment Slot
"This cleverly constructed visor consists of a single piece of smokey, transparent material, curved to protect the eyes from both the front and sides. It offers amazing clarity with forward and peripheral vision, bringing even shadowy or concealed objects into sharp focus."







Edit 3/22/17: Fleshed out a few items and tried to restore my original spacing. Added Bottled Smoke, Firecracker, and Spelunker's Eye Visor.


I have lots more to add to this list but need to take a break. I will work on it later.

[Wonedream]

I like those ideas of yours Annex.

It would be very good also to hear from some official what their thoughts are for the future of any randomized dungeon systems.

Please let us know Dev team what your perspective regarding randomized dungeons is.

I would like to know if my main toon will ever get to deal with the unknown over and over in the same day, next day and every day thereafter, or if it will continue to be modules that I learn and become familiar with after running the first time, and each time thereafter until its embedded in my brain to the point it is more like an unusual arena then a mysterious dungeon.

[Gramh_the_Bard]

I like those ideas of yours Annex.

It would be very good also to hear from some official what their thoughts are for the future of any randomized dungeon systems.

Please let us know Dev team what your perspective regarding randomized dungeons is.

I would like to know if my main toon will ever get to deal with the unknown over and over in the same day, next day and every day thereafter, or if it will continue to be modules that I learn and become familiar with after running the first time, and each time thereafter until its embedded in my brain to the point it is more like an unusual arena then a mysterious dungeon.

They have, by saying nothing at all.

[Wonedream]

I like those ideas of yours Annex.

It would be very good also to hear from some official what their thoughts are for the future of any randomized dungeon systems.

Please let us know Dev team what your perspective regarding randomized dungeons is.

I would like to know if my main toon will ever get to deal with the unknown over and over in the same day, next day and every day thereafter, or if it will continue to be modules that I learn and become familiar with after running the first time, and each time thereafter until its embedded in my brain to the point it is more like an unusual arena then a mysterious dungeon.

Bumped to emphasize the question.

And I wasn't asking anyone else to answer for them.

I will say this Gramh the Bard, silence is neither negative nor positive. I am unable to make any assumptions, if they do not commit to any answer. It means to me the prospect is still on the table, just being left there. Not answers does not equate to "it will never happen" nor "we are planning on it" it usually means they like keeping their options available.

This is one they should experiment with more. I would be more enthusiastic about playing if I had such places to go to. I think a lot of players would too. This means more revenue for all other things, bigger team, etc etc. I will want to pay more money then I already am if that happens. Why, because that is what I want and then I am getting it, so yes, off course I am going to pay for exactly what I want. This is what customers do.

[Wonedream]

Today's procedural generated dungeon: (meaning it used a system of probables and logic to produce a RANDOM DUNGEON)



Do this DDO. Many of us really want it.

[Wonedream]

Ok.. one more pic to show off how good the graphics can be with good textures... in a simple shaped system... this place is looking great. DDO please develop random dungeons for us. Review this thread for ideas. Lets make DDO the best game Online!

[SiliconScout]

The main issue I see with this is simple data. Let's assume / imagine that from a technological standpoint the engine can handle the system then the data is a problem.

You either generate the map and dungeon on the server and send the completed file to the client when they enter (this would be significant overhead on the server side) and hammer the clients load time / data stream. Keep in mind that you need to include ALL the art resources here as well as every object in the dungeon as well as calculate what can/will spawn to be able to handle the ransack bonus, etc. That will end up taking some significant cycles on the server and generate a fairly large file to the client. Multiply this issue in a dungeon with 6 players all with different connection speeds significantly.

OR

You generate a mapping / resource file of some sort and send THAT to the client and have the client create the map and have the client machine do the "heavy lifting" of stitching it all together and generating the file. This makes loading times VERY variable and troubleshooting extremely difficult for them when issues arise. It also means that the client is now vulnerable to an enormous number of exploits where you either manipulate the data sent directly or where it's stored in memory. It's relatively trivial then to manipulate values at that point and if you thought dupapolooza was a big deal it will have NOTHING on the potential here. And having a GM show up might very well be impossible as the "instance" is really running on your end than on the server.


So basically it's the old usability vs. security argument really and I don't expect there is any happy middle ground there.

[Hazelnut]

The main issue I see with this is simple data. Let's assume / imagine that from a technological standpoint the engine can handle the system then the data is a problem.

You either generate the map and dungeon on the server and send the completed file to the client when they enter (this would be significant overhead on the server side) and hammer the clients load time / data stream. Keep in mind that you need to include ALL the art resources here as well as every object in the dungeon as well as calculate what can/will spawn to be able to handle the ransack bonus, etc. That will end up taking some significant cycles on the server and generate a fairly large file to the client. Multiply this issue in a dungeon with 6 players all with different connection speeds significantly.

The graphics assets and a lot of the heavy stuff (in terms of network load) can be canned and re-used such that it is part of the standard DDO update. The only thing that needs to go over the network to the 6 players is the layout of the dungeon (which is not very big in terms of modern standards). Monsters, spawn, ransack and all that stuff is already in-place and doesn't need changing. Heck, even the graphics assets are already in-place. Haven't you noticed the re-use of graphics in DDO?

OR

You generate a mapping / resource file of some sort and send THAT to the client and have the client create the map and have the client machine do the "heavy lifting" of stitching it all together and generating the file. This makes loading times VERY variable and troubleshooting extremely difficult for them when issues arise. It also means that the client is now vulnerable to an enormous number of exploits where you either manipulate the data sent directly or where it's stored in memory. It's relatively trivial then to manipulate values at that point and if you thought dupapolooza was a big deal it will have NOTHING on the potential here. And having a GM show up might very well be impossible as the "instance" is really running on your end than on the server.


So basically it's the old usability vs. security argument really and I don't expect there is any happy middle ground there.

What makes you think games don't already have this issue?


The real problem is figuring out how to get random dungeon layout generation into a game engine that was never built to handle it.

[Wonedream]

... ...


The real problem is figuring out how to get random dungeon layout generation into a game engine that was never built to handle it.

The other points have already been explained and are easy to solve in such a way it will have no performance issues. Already there are replies how to do this.

And then we come to this one. I explained how to work out a basic dungeon and how they already got all the stuff they need. The most simple one doesnt involve module placement using dungeon bits. Dev team already made walls that are randomly there are not in Shav quest. Just make those walls into blocks, and place their random locations in a snap formation... bam... and not a single change to any system, or anything. Loading a few blocks extra... takes no time... you could load 100,000 blocks and it would still load fast. These are some of the most simple shapes of all.

I also already provided many examples of things they can do without changing the system. Yes, most of them result in more basic versions, but with some creative input they can still be quite interesting and varied.

Now when we discuss the dungeon bit system, this might be a big problem. The question is, can the Devs make a space generate and add dungeon parts like it does walls in the shav quest? If so... they can do dungeon bits right now. If not, then what you describe is a real problem indeed.

I think if they add a LISP rhoutine that enables them to stacks module bits (dungeon bits I call them) that starts with a static "starting room" and can add from there they got it pinned already.


As to all that other stuff about sending back and forth... easy and not really a problem. Just update the clients to include any resources they might need so it isn't sending files so much. As in... Client now already has BLOCKS in its banks... server doesn't send that.. just the formation. As to different computers and their different speeds... this is no different then it is with static modules already. So it is pointless to even talk about something that is already happening and not an issue.


Let us assume what is this game going to be like if they NEVER do this? I know what will happen... Some other game will beat them to it and do a good version, people will flock to that game, and games that do not keep up with the evolution of MMORPG will become scarcely populated, less interesting with repeat material, and basically end with servers getting closed. Even if some old timers get to together to keep their arena game alive... gradually they will pop off until... the games that are pumping out endless content, with vast universes to explore, and mass populated will be far too interesting for younger people to consider when comparing and deciding what they are gonna do.

I am looking far ahead in time... an old habit... and see now for the sake of DDO how important this is. I will do what I can to protect my favorite game from sinking into oblivion...

And as I said before.. if the engine is SOOOOOO busted and incapable of keeping up there is another easy solution...


GET A BETTER ONE THAT DOES MORE! AND.... so important....

Allow a transfer process so we keep our toons, gear, PLs and are able to transfer them over to the new engine. Could even make some quest that puts you back and forth... so you can visit the old version, play its quests, and see it as a museum foundation of DDO itself. I think this engine probably has a lot of life in it, and that it CAN do randomized dungeons already, and possibly advanced dungeon bit version.

They ought to try and see what they are capable of instead of sticking with what they already know!

[Uska]

The other points have already been explained and are easy to solve in such a way it will have no performance issues. Already there are replies how to do this.

And then we come to this one. I explained how to work out a basic dungeon and how they already got all the stuff they need. The most simple one doesnt involve module placement using dungeon bits. Dev team already made walls that are randomly there are not in Shav quest. Just make those walls into blocks, and place their random locations in a snap formation... bam... and not a single change to any system, or anything. Loading a few blocks extra... takes no time... you could load 100,000 blocks and it would still load fast. These are some of the most simple shapes of all.

I also already provided many examples of things they can do without changing the system. Yes, most of them result in more basic versions, but with some creative input they can still be quite interesting and varied.

Now when we discuss the dungeon bit system, this might be a big problem. The question is, can the Devs make a space generate and add dungeon parts like it does walls in the shav quest? If so... they can do dungeon bits right now. If not, then what you describe is a real problem indeed.

I think if they add a LISP rhoutine that enables them to stacks module bits (dungeon bits I call them) that starts with a static "starting room" and can add from there they got it pinned already.


As to all that other stuff about sending back and forth... easy and not really a problem. Just update the clients to include any resources they might need so it isn't sending files so much. As in... Client now already has BLOCKS in its banks... server doesn't send that.. just the formation. As to different computers and their different speeds... this is no different then it is with static modules already. So it is pointless to even talk about something that is already happening and not an issue.


Let us assume what is this game going to be like if they NEVER do this? I know what will happen... Some other game will beat them to it and do a good version, people will flock to that game, and games that do not keep up with the evolution of MMORPG will become scarcely populated, less interesting with repeat material, and basically end with servers getting closed. Even if some old timers get to together to keep their arena game alive... gradually they will pop off until... the games that are pumping out endless content, with vast universes to explore, and mass populated will be far too interesting for younger people to consider when comparing and deciding what they are gonna do.

I am looking far ahead in time... an old habit... and see now for the sake of DDO how important this is. I will do what I can to protect my favorite game from sinking into oblivion...

And as I said before.. if the engine is SOOOOOO busted and incapable of keeping up there is another easy solution...


GET A BETTER ONE THAT DOES MORE! AND.... so important....

Allow a transfer process so we keep our toons, gear, PLs and are able to transfer them over to the new engine. Could even make some quest that puts you back and forth... so you can visit the old version, play its quests, and see it as a museum foundation of DDO itself. I think this engine probably has a lot of life in it, and that it CAN do randomized dungeons already, and possibly advanced dungeon bit version.

They ought to try and see what they are capable of instead of sticking with what they already know!

I don't think it's anywhere as simple,or easy as you think.

[Wonedream]

I don't think it's anywhere as simple,or easy as you think.

Funny... climbing a mountain can be easy... or hard. Part of it is in the planning and this is well known to mountain climbers. Part of it is in the training. And another part of it is in the perception. Things are always harder if you think they are then they actually are.

Do you think the placement of random walls in the already existing shav quest is impossible... oh wait, it has already been done. My guess is... the procedure for doing that is already established, and quite easy.

As to getting modules to snap themselves into positions, or adding a LISP that would tell computer add this dungeon section to this one, putting that together might not be as simple as the simple version. which they have already done just not made into a full dungeon that way, yes the advanced version might take some thinking, some daring, some courage, and some work... but is it worth it to be ahead of the market and lead the way instead of getting left behind when more and more games start generating an experience of Universal size without even remotely using that much space?

I perceive that the advanced version would not be so simple.. thus it is called the advanced version. And I also say that do not try it until you get the basics down first. Further, I see this game will end if it does not do this... MMORPG is evolving, and this is one of the biggest changes that has already begun.

[Avantasian]

Still missing any sort of example of where randomization creates good content that feels anywhere near "like new content every time".
You don't even seem to acknowledge the tradeoff of quality that randomization invariably leads to.

[Annex]

I like those ideas of yours Annex.

Thank you! I added a few more items to the original post.

It would be very good also to hear from some official what their thoughts are for the future of any randomized dungeon systems.

Based on what I have seen in these forums over the years, the process goes something like this:

1) A player presents a very detailed proposal for a new game system. The more well thought out and detailed the original proposal, the better. (Developers have little time to hunt through long threads of junk for the good parts.)
2) Some players like the idea. Some reject it.
3) The original poster continues to flesh out the idea, keeping it alive.
4) More players take interest, eventually building to a consensus that "this should happen".
5) The developers take interest in the idea. In my opinion, the idea must excite at least one developer enough for that person to internally champion the idea.
6) The developer(s) convince the producer that the idea will work within a single Update cycle given existing resources.
7) The producer slots the idea for an Update and work begins as per the usual Update cycle.
8) About three quarters through development the producer reveals the idea is under development.
9) The Update with the idea arrives. Some players like it a lot. Some hate it. Most are somewhere in between.
10) After a brief period focused on fixing major bugs associated with the idea, the team moves on to new things.

This cycle takes two or three years at the minimum.

In my opinion, Random Dungeons are the sort of thing that very much can happen IF enough players take interest, it gains some momentum, and a developer also becomes interested. It has one huge advantage over lots of other player ideas--the developers could squeeze money out of it in a dozen different ways.

[SiliconScout]

The graphics assets and a lot of the heavy stuff (in terms of network load) can be canned and re-used such that it is part of the standard DDO update. The only thing that needs to go over the network to the 6 players is the layout of the dungeon (which is not very big in terms of modern standards). Monsters, spawn, ransack and all that stuff is already in-place and doesn't need changing. Heck, even the graphics assets are already in-place. Haven't you noticed the re-use of graphics in DDO?

What makes you think games don't already have this issue?

The real problem is figuring out how to get random dungeon layout generation into a game engine that was never built to handle it.

I won't say the game doesn't already have this issue but it's a lot more difficult to pull off and easier to detect when the dungeon is a server hosted instance and the map is a static packed file on the client end. What I am saying is that if they expect the client side to host the instance then the ability to do so is DRAMATICALLY easier and difficult to detect.

If the dungeon instance is generated and hosted on the server in the same manner of the current had crafted dungeons then you keep the security just about the same (it still would be easier than currently but not dramatically so) however the data transmission of that packed dungeon file can be substantial.

If you take the middle ground and host the instance of the server and just send the area(s) that the client needs when it would reduce the amount of data needed to be sent turning it into a steady stream instead of a massive onetime download and would speed the load time. However you are risking performance issues as stitching together even squared block areas without visible seams is highly dependant on the client machine to "get it right". You can design the blocks in such a way so as to dramatically reduce this for sure but you do that at the expense of dungeon quality. Meaning that the dungeon starts to "all look the same".

So even ignoring the manhours it would take to patch the engine, and the inherent risks you take when patching the engine (the MOTU engine update literally took years to resolve all the issues) you still have a VERY significant performance problems.

In short, can it be done? Well of course it can and I have every confidence that the DDO team could accomplish this. The real question is how many man hours would it take to upgrade the engine, build the system, build the art assets, build the models, design the system, smooth out the performance issues and then of course test it all. Having some experience in this area (and I freely admit it's limited as I am not a game developer) I expect you are looking into many hundreds of man hours, perhaps many thousand. That's not to say you couldn't be working on it through 2017 for a release in 2018 but you would need, at a minimum, to make it an "expansion" so that all players would need to pay to use it because that development costs a lot of money and it needs to be recuperated.

How many players would be "happy" if an expansion was simply a "random dungeon system"? Given the blowback from Shadowfell and the very real need to avoid appearing like it's a "Diablo III clone" I am going to go out on a limb here and say that it wouldn't be as many as they would like, especially if it launches with significant issues or if the changes needed for it filtered out into the existing game. I just don't see a Return on Investment that would justify the expense. Perhaps when this game had more players sure but with the existing population this would have to be the "hail mary" play coupled with heavy marketing and basically an all or nothing play to either significantly grow the game OR run it out of cash and go under. If they want to fit it in without undue expense (ie no crunch time, no additional developer time, fit it in as you go along) and try and play it safe I expect it's the sort of thing that could take 3-5 years for them to complete.

Don't get me wrong here though please. If they dedicated themselves to this I think it could happen by the end of this year or first quarter of 2018 but that also means no new content at all until then. And it also assumes that they get it mostly right the first time. I think that if they could do it without a drop in game quality it would for sure open a great many doors of potential, even an actual for real "choose your own adventure" style of quest which would be great. But if they do we need to all recognize that they are taking on a significant financial risk for a very uncertain financial gain that could range anywhere from complete collapse to colossal success but falling even in the middle of that spectrum is likely a net loss for them.

[SiliconScout]

Funny... climbing a mountain can be easy... or hard. Part of it is in the planning and this is well known to mountain climbers. Part of it is in the training. And another part of it is in the perception. Things are always harder if you think they are then they actually are. ...

And every corpse on the slopes of Mt. Everest was once a highly skilled, trained, confident and motivated person.

Just saying there is a very high degree of potential risk involved in going down this road, and as cool as it could be, I don't see the game being in the state to be able to afford to take that risk.