Random Dungeons Old School Simple Version

[Wonedream]

Wall of text, must ... roll... a ... 20... arggg.

Anyway, I'm not a big fan of randgen dungeons (or randgen loot for that matter). I enjoy the most of the "handcrafted" dungeons we have

Im not a big fan of repeating the same thing over and over. Nor am I a big fan of knowing where everything is. Predictable adventures are not really adventures.

[Wonedream]

... ...

I am sure the programmers at Standing Stone could write something to create random dungeons on the fly, given time and budget. The problem occurs when 50 players start new random dungeons at the same time. Now the server needs to randomly generate every variable for all 50 of those dungeons, store that data server side, and transmit that data to all involved clients. I worry that load would cause serious problems for the servers. My previous post was an attempt to visualize a somewhat random dungeon space that would not place a huge strain on servers.

... ...

I realized how to work around this problem last night but was too tired to bring it up. Now I will.

If the dungeon is made of simple blocks it won't use a lot of resources at all, it won't be even close to that of any module we are already playing. The framerates would be insanely smooth and fast. It wouldn't effect anyone else's game at all, if anything, it would free up resources and reduce lag if groups where in these simple places that used hardly anything to stack blocks into a dungeon. They would use more resources playing Tear of Dahkaan, as that module has far more detail and substance then simple blocks. So these simple dungeons would load fast, and play fast and be practically lag free.



How about the more advanced versions where dungeon cube modules are designed instead and used instead of blocks (to make a far superior version with 3d and incredible variety)? This is also easy. The Devs already have a library on all the modules we are playing and so do we have certain resources and library content in client download.

If they make a library of dungeon bits (cubic modules that align randomly into complex dungeons) they simply add it to what our clients as well the same way they added finished modules. So we have all the resources at hand stored in our computer.. the computer determines which ones need to be pulled up as it generates the logic and order of dungeon (randomly within constrained probable limits as set by Dev team), all computers synchronize the dungeon construct rapidly in the same way a finished module works, only difference is it loads bits together based on what server tells its results should look like.

Bam. Everyone is in the same randomized and most complicated place on earth...erm... DDO (if its well done and has a huge library.. adding bit by bit.. the dev team could have loads of fun sculpting out unique dungeon bit surprises and adding them to the random rosters). The module is no longer using any more resources then any other module, since it is using the same logic that finished modules run on... only different is is is assembled from bits to make a complete dungeon being pulled from in the same way a finished module is.


And now there is no lag issues anymore. Easy to do since it is already being done

[Wonedream]

I suppose I will merge the advanced ideas into this a bit so I can refer to them when working it out more carefully when I have time.

Here is how to generate a dungeon bit library very very fast with little to no effort:

http://ddowiki.com/images/Army_of_Shadow_-_Map.jpg

Look at the map I show in example above. Imagine a graph is placed over it, and any of the little square boxes is a potential spot to copy a section of the module out and paste it into a new file. This is to demonstrate how a module could be broken down, off course the graph would most likely not align to make good bits...

But it wouldn't use a graph, that was for demonstration. There would be a CUBE (like AutoCADD having a square that you can move around and copy all contents in square and paste them somewhere else, in another file if you want.. most drawing/graphics/3d graphics programs feature this ability and it is easy to set up lisps for the ones that don't so there is now a command to use over and over and make it easy) and the Devs can move it to where they want in the 3d space model generator and give a command "copy all landscape within Cube" then paste it in a new file and modify the paths a little so they always fit.

Let us say a path ends up on the south wall and north wall, meaning in this bit of dungeon, you can pass from north to south or vice versa. South side has 9 potential places on its square perimeters. TLC TMC TRC LMM MMM RMM LLC LMM RMC. All of these represent tags that would be placed in the name of the dungeon bit's file somewhere specified, maybe first 3 letters of name tag. Or maybe next set, so that the first set can specify if it is a north south, east to south, 4 way, going down from east... or basic directions while the next tag tells it the exact position on the faces. Then it knows all files with StNTLCLMM are going to share certain features every time because they are all South to North / Top Left Corner (from south) / Lower Middle Middle (at north). Other tags are added to name to differentiate and control other features so they can be listed by those qualities only.

Devs make sure Top Left Corner is aligned so that any module with north face that needs to fit and connect has a Top Left Corner path that will align when that named tag is selected from a list of all files with that tag in it, making sure only fitting path ways will be selected ever.

StNTLCLMMCYPLVL10UWBOSTRPRMM is what these names will end up looking like. Yes, it seems pure hell at first to work with them. Then it gets easy and next thing you know.. you are working for an international Airplane company making airplanes in 3d with every single of their 3 million+ parts with this system and getting every single part to line up without even looking at them, just plugging in the codes because you know what you are doing. It is easy once you understand it. And a constant of cube is way way easier then some of the nuts and bolts of the several hundred thousand going in a plane.

They can go through existing material this way, cut up thousands of bits in very short time, and use those bits to create the library that will compose random combinations but controlled probabilities so it is both unpredictable, but consistent with its own randomly selected settings.


I know how to do this. So I know it can be done. Is it worth it... oh yes... it will equate to more revenue then any update this game ever made.

People from other games will hear rumor of DDO's new incredible dungeon maze generator... that alone will catch ear.

But if it features an incredible randomizer with monsters, content, and all...

They will come in swarms and new servers will need to be added. Wayfarer will fill up fast.

This is how much people playing any of their game really want true adventure. If it isn't DDO, it is some other game where you end up repeating the same stuff over and over, since no one has ever made a real dungeon random generator that was good enough to be called GOOD!

It does not mean it is impossible. It just means no one did it yet and so here DDO has the great big opportunity to be the first and thereby gain massive gaming leverage over all of its competitors.

They get richer.

I get to have more fun.

Everyone wins!


As to the question about lag and framerates, I already explained how easy that is to overcome. I think a simplified version would be loads of fun, because it would have the smoothest framerates ever, since it would end up using so little resources. The advanced version would end up using the same amount of resources as any module of equal size uses. So it wouldn't start having framerate issues unless the dev team set constraints too loose and it ended up generating dungeons with 10,000 rooms. These things can easily be controlled.


I would even do volunteer work on this project, so I could play it!

They could make it so good they will find themselves playing it and totally amazed at how it has taken on a life of its own and surprises them so much they are having loads of fun with it.


We might just end up with....

Non-Repetitive TRing!!!!! (Spoken with thunderous booming voice of Awe and Splendor!)

[Gramh_the_Bard]

It's called Diablo 2.

[Wonedream]

It's called Diablo 2.

If you read the thread you would know that does not even come close. I played 1 and 2, and seen 3. None of them are close. They are not DDO, they do not play like DDO, and their randomizers suck. You are not playing DDO in these games, you do not run around with DDO feel, shooting arrows or swinging swords with DDO crunch... not close.

Read the thread in order to understand the difference

And copy this:

We might just end up with....

Non-Repetitive TRing!!!!! (Spoken with thunderous booming voice of Awe and Splendor!)

[Gramh_the_Bard]

I've read the thread, it comes pretty close to Diablo games, with DDO char gen.

[walkin_dude]

If I want to play random dungeon crawl, there are a lot of options already:

Powder
Nethack
Angband (or one of its many variants)
Dwarf Fortress
many more...

There are page upon pages of these games. I listed some that I think are some of the better ones.

[Uska]

Please stop flooding the forum with your bad idea. Thanks in advance.

He has a lot of bad ideas but this one of the better ones I am just not sure it's feasible or not

Also if you don't like his ideas don't read them or even put him on ignore

[Memnir]

[Feithlin]

I like it. It could be managed a bit like Challenges, as something apart from conventional quests.

(To the Devs, my main toon thanks you for the wonderful update with Racial PLs . I was in game and heard a description and liked it... thinking yeah.. my main is gonna get that too . My alts are swimming in tears, but I came up with a plan for them too, as I gear up my main getting all PLd I will dump lots of stuff of them. If my main ever runs out... my alts will have gear.. Ill just play em casual to enjoy the neat things I never used :P then go back to my main for some R10 action)

Now for the post:

While I was working out an elaborate system for the procedures and probability matrices for the ingredients to make a dungeon generator that generates truly excellence state of the art awesomeness that will have so many of us drooling with endless anticipation as we get lost over and over in the variety itself... I was looking back at the old basics... the old school DM guide for AD&D. Nostalgia kicked in so hard, I felt it heavy, I remembered when I was a kid making dungeons for my friends to play, hours just making them, it was fun. Later I worked out my own random systems, because I found it was more fun to DM when I didn't know what was gonna happen either. So I strolled through memory lane and found the lists of random monsters for dungeons lvls 1 to 10, and some of the other random lists too.

I asked myself what would a simple version look like and how would it be to play.

You can get an idea of it by looking at the variables, so I wanted to share some simple variables to demonstrate how easy it is to expect what and what not. And would even a simple bland dungeon with lots of secrets, simple mechanics, and odd formations still be fun? Let us take a better look and ask ourselves what this simple product would be like to play.


First the random monster charts from old school:

http://www.adnd3egame.com/documents/dmg.pdf

They are in the back, with other random charts of stuff. The monsters are not the same as here, easy to adjust.

What about the dungeons.

Let us use a very simple method this time, instead of modules with connecting pathways, let us use bricks... big bricks.. bland, but easy to program and randomize...

Look at this to help understand what it would look like:

https://www.myth-weavers.com/generate_dungeon.php


Now we can begin the simple operations to turn this stuff into an adventure, lets keep it simple for this demonstration and see if the end result looks like fun


The simple version

Each block in the map is a wall block, solid, you can't pass through it. This dungeon has in its descriptions to justify its bland nature "crog that mad wizard made a poor version of of a dungeon to randomize itself to protect him so know one will ever just know and have a plan to use against him.. bad crog bad now we must kill you"... whatever can work, easy to add story so our toons say, ok, that is why it is made of blocks. This is a simple bland version, remember.


You go into block land dungeon. The blocks look like large monoliths, so it has this crypt feel to it, at least its not so bad. Rooms next to halls? They will leave open spaces. Not if the room is told to add walls at its perimeters.. maybe 1 or 2 meters thick. Now you can't pass. Boom Room!

As it looks now it is horizontal only. This is a simple learning version, still fun, but the baby, not the papa! So let it be simple and horizontal, easy to make, easy to pull off. This is a 2d version.

How might this be unpredictable then since its so bland?

Width of dungeon is random. We dont know.

Height of dungeon is random. Setting can be set to vary and be random. So we wouldn't know the size of the dungeon for beginners.

Room count: On this generator you get none, few, some, many, too many. These can be random. We might end up in just a maze of hallways. Or lots of rooms. It would take a few rooms... halls... to figure out which is which sometimes.. here we are guessing again.

Room sizes can also be set to randomized specs, so we might end up in a place with lots of tightly packed rooms, or spread out large ones. Another thing that keeps us guessing. We are inside this shifting maze remember.

Randomness. Play with this one You can set it up to 95% random or 0% random. So here, we can even set it so the nature of the randomness of the dungeon is now random. It might not be as random, it might be very random. We won't even know how random it is :P What a lot of guessing. Im geting lost, but its fun!

Deadends removed: Play it it.. make some variations. We will figure out if we got dead ends if we start running into em, but we won't know if they are all over the place right away usually, even that will take some running around, scouting... What is it like this time? So it would end up random if and how many dead ends there are. Now not only are we guessing, we are in a maze! This is really getting fun, even if the walls are bland! I like this game... more please.. onward with the demo!

Secret doors: It might have none, it might be filled with secrets... this too can be random so we don't automatically know if it has em or not. Them scouts be working hard!!!

Concealed doors: They might spring open if we get too close.. monsters come rushing out. Maybe not. But another thing to keep an eye out for. Will they always be there, no, so we always end up guessing.

Sparseness: Is this place crowded or spread out. How much can it vary, and how long will it take to figure out? This might get constrained some so it isnt so crowded lag and other things happen, simply set the constraints so it cant get to that point ever. Know the deflection point so you never go near the breaking point. Easy enough. And with all the other things to watch out for, its getting hard to keep up with all the variables... people will probably start making the wrong guesses more often.. but that is just the dungeon, nothing to do with monsters yet.

Level: In our example we will borrow but augment the level idea. The generator I use for the example puts monsters in the rooms, not much, but its for PnP, a different kind of game then online fast action. But you can choose levels 1-20... it already covers heriocs :P lol. Let us assume it adds more monsters and that part is a bit different. And that monsters can also appear in hallway blocks at times, not as often, but it happens. We will add the modified version in a bit.

Grid Size: I couldnt figure out how this would effect anything. It looked like a printing feature. Not sure.

Not sure was seed is referring to either. But this shows a block system.. helps get the idea of how random the environment can get already with simple 2d.


Order of Operations:

This one is much simpler. So first it spawns a map.

It adds monsters, content, traps, tricks, surprises to rooms. It adds a bit of the same to hallways, just not as much (or maybe more :P).

Here we can modify the lists, go back and look at AD&D for some simple insights, and deliver something based on the content within the game. There are things in those lists that aren't here, so modify a bit.

Randomize Contents is in the AD&D DMs guide for a quick snap shot look.
Empty rooms with junk.. things about
Monsters
Treasure
Trick/Trap
Monsters and Treasure

This is outta the book.. so rooms. Modify it a tad
Empty rooms
Monsters
Treasure
Tricks/Traps
Ambush
Puzzle
NPC

And put it in a matrix

Empty Room Monsters Treasure Tricks/Traps Ambush Puzzle NPC
Empty Room
Monsters
Treasure
Trick/Traps
Ambush
Puzzle
NPC


If it gets two of the same that means it gets one. If it gets two mixes.. it gets mixed. Mixes up like.. monsters and treasure.. Monsters and tricks/traps, monsters and ambush (more monsters after fight.. and you thought it was over), monsters and puzzle (always fun trying to solve puzzles with monsters attacking you..)... Treasure might be concealed.. so it looks like an empty room... or the monsters hiding.. or they just appear out of no where by magic.. by crossing the content into a matrix you get 49+7 56 possible things that can happen in a room. Add more variables or cross em again and those number can change quickly. Just adding another matrix.... so you can get monster ambush treasure or puzzle trap ambush brings it up to 343+49+7=399 variations. Then it can have a sequence or none, adding more variations on top of this so that you start with monsters after they die a puzzle appear and after you solve it a concealed door opens and monsters spring an ambush (sequenced), or you enter a room with a puzzle, monsters guarding it, and the concealed door ambush is sprung when you enter thinking it won't be so many monsters (thus the ambush)... (non-sequenced).

Room complexity:
Most likely 1 content
Use matrix of 2 contents (might still be 1) ... check if sequenced or not
Use matrix of 3 contents (might be 2 or 1 still) .. check if sequenced or not




It adds a starting place... might put you in the middle of a fight right away.

There might be only 1 starting place... there might be many and each player that enters ends up somewhere else in the dungeon... sometimes you got to find the party since you are all spread out.

Starter:
Most common One place (party all comes in at same place as usual)
Rare Multiple starter points (party comes in and is randomly placed in one of the starting points, they might be spread apart and will have to find each other to team up) This can also occur later on if they have to go into a teleporter if the mission has a twist, so they might end up getting separated later on. If it happens right away an exp bonus could kick in to keep them from resetting it, or it could increase the chances of some unique item dropping so they brave it anyways)


It adds a simple theme/mission/objective


Last part.

Themes/missions/objectives:

Rescue Mission (place some random thing or person that gives objective... place dead or alive subject somewhere... chance of boss)
Escort (Help so and so get to such place.. or kill such boss... chance that so and so being escorted will turn mid quest, at end, or not at all)
Guard Something (Don't let them destroy it.. or them... after holding ground for a set time.. go find the boss who organized the attack and teach him)
Plunder (Random NPC quest givers tells tales of great treasure somewhere here.. chances for rare items go up.. turns out its being guarded)
Treasure Hunt (Quest giver says there is treasure.. find it to obtain objective or at least find out it doesnt exist (possible new objective or quest end)
Stop the Evil (NPC quest giver tells about some great evil.. a sorcerer, wizard, lich, dragon.. some mean sounding boss... go stop it!)
Collect the parts (Go find em and assemble such and such to stop so and so. )
Investigate (Find out what happened by simply getting to the end... )
Exterminate (Kill em all... they must be stopped... all of them!!!)
Sabotage (Get in there and set it up to go boom... )
Revenge (NPC quest giver offers reward if you avenge the death of their loved one... it might be worth it...)


Now in most of these cases you have a quest giving thing or person (first objective if find out what the objective is). It connects to where the result activator is that ends the quest or triggers next objective. It is possible there is a barrier in between, a key and a door.

Tell computer to lock room with target (boss, objective goal... ) if it generates a barrier, or randomly use some barriers that will always fit.. maybe boss is surrounded by force field and several levers must be pulled to stop force field... barrier... solution can be randomized.. but must be constrained carefully so the means to over come the barrier is always within reach and the target is always beyond the barrier. In this case locked rooms or putting forces fields is easy and works well. The computer can then place key in any room but locked one. It can even use multiple keys for that room as long as they aren't in that room and not beyond a barrier out of reach.


Objective twists and developments:

Common 1 Objective only.. (simple quest.. can still be a maze of fun..)
Uncommon 2 Objectives at same time
Rare 3 Objectives at same time
Common 2 objectives in order
Uncommon 3 Objectives in order
Rare 4 Objectives in order
Very rare 5 Objectives in order

If they are at the same time it means you can find em without needing to do one first. If they are ordered, it means the next objective appears after first one is fulfilled.

So what is the objective then? No one will really know for sure!



That is it. Nothing more. A simple version to demonstrate. Now try to put yourself in this place. What can we expect? We know the walls will be bland, but might be well done monolith stones so it isn't so unreal looking at least. We know it will be horizontal the whole time.. though it could be modified with layers so we might end up in 3 floors but one quest, we are not doing that for this example though.

We know it will probably have monsters, but we won't know the lay out until we dig in and the longer we do so the more clear it will get (and the more invested we will get). We might figure out if it is dense, spread out... but the lay out itself.. a mystery. We won't know where the traps are. We won't know what the boss is. We won't know the secret paths, which obviously pop up sometimes (not always.. more fun guessing and checking). We won't know if we got only 1 objective or more coming up. We won't know the ending if that is made to variate even if it turns out to be only 1 objective. Our imaginations will fill in gaps and create untold stories... "this dungeon must have been taken over by oozes... since that is all I am fighting so far..." while the objectives will provide the told part "You must help me before it is too late!!!" said the random NPC :P And the adventure begins...


Trappers will be in high demand, more then ever. They will love being so useful. Scouts will be deployed to gather intel in these unknown places, specially if you do them on reaper mode...

Every other class will end up pitted against the unknown, not the most elaborate place, but one still full of surprises. It won't be super off course, but it would be a lot of fun, more so if there was unique treasure that is very rare to find there, but there only. Very rare... a tiny chance... now this place has bait to increase the fun of its unknown aspects even more.. will it pan out that rare item... probably not, most often not, but its still fun looking for them in a place that keeps you guessing every time.


I see this place in my mind. It isnt perfect or ideal, this is the simple version. I am going to work out the more elaborate version update when its ready. A more advanced version would have more matrices, constrains, order of operations more carefully planned out, and is something that takes time and consideration to develop. It would have 3d modules instead of blocks, each hand crafted.. and then copied to make modified versions quickly and place random points about along with border paths. It could be done to produce a truly amazing astonishing endless realm of potential, or an overly simple thing like what is shown here.


Even this simple one here I would have loads of fun playing. I wouldn't play it non-stop, I would go do lots of stuff I know so well, but I would stop off here for some good old try to find it and go through the unknown adventures, old school style. A place that would keep me on my toes guessing, alert, and amazed in a maze :P

[Annex]

If I want to play random dungeon crawl, there are a lot of options already:

Powder
Nethack
Angband (or one of its many variants)
Dwarf Fortress
many more...

There are page upon pages of these games. I listed some that I think are some of the better ones.

Thank you for those wonderful links! I ended up reading every one and a fair few more. When you think about it, the wonderful three dimensional worlds we now adventure through really boil down to very simple core ideas embodied in those old games.

A quick search reveals many online random dungeon generators such as this one: http://donjon.bin.sh/d20/dungeon/index.cgi

Hit <Construct> with the default parameters and out pops a sprawling dungeon!

When I thought about it, the dungeons created with that tool (using default settings) look a whole lot like the first level of the Temple of Elemental Evil. The Temple meanders about with lots of long corridors connecting large rooms in no logical manner. It features a rather uniform appearance and often sparse dungeon dressing. The encounters basically consist of monsters standing around at nicely spaced intervals waiting for us to show up and take their stuff. Except for the boss fight and ballista strong point it is a random dungeon!

Then I thought about some of the more recent dungeons and decided to examine Grim and Barret. When you look at the map, it resembles a very simple random dungeon. On Epic Normal Difficulty with a Rogue, Wizard, and Favored Soul hire, it goes something like this:

1) 3 Abashi
2) 3 Abashi
3) 3 Abashi
4) 3 Abashi
5) Orthon Mini-boss and Chest
6) Secret Door and Chest
7) 3 Abashi
8) Trapped Corridor
9) 3 Cultists and Rakshasa
10) 3 Cultists and Rakshasa
11) 4 Cultists
12) 3 Cultists and Rakshasa
13) 4?
14) 4 Abashi
15) 2 Abashi
16) 4 Abashi
17) 3 Abashi
18) 3 Abashi
19) Boss, 7 Scrubs, and Chest

Obviously the dungeon designer spent a great deal of time building that space, adding lots of dungeon dressing, setting the story elements, and so forth. However, from the player perspective, it actually boils down to a handful of simple encounters along a very linear path. (Some dungeons feature much more complex encounters with enemies placed very purposely to cause trouble for the unwary. A random dungeon system will not offer that.)

The poster above brought up Challenges. In my opinion, that is exactly how we should think about Random Dungeons. They do not seek to replace all the fine, hand crafted dungeons in DDO. Instead, they offer the potential of a vast, sprawling mini-game that dwarfs even Dr. Rushmore's Mansion. In layout, pace, and monster placement, a small version could offer Grim and Barret style dungeons. A large version could offer Temple of Elemental Evil, Part I style dungeons.

My internet search revealed a few different algorithms for building random dungeons and I am sure the professional developers at Standing Stone could make a very good one. A 50 by 50 dungeon would necessarily include a minimum of 2500 "blocks" to generate and synchronize with clients. When you start adding dressing, light sources, monsters, chests, traps, and so forth, that number will rise. However, by constraining the size and shape of the dungeon, perhaps it would remain manageable. Play with the tool I linked. It can produce some very interesting layouts, some more suited for DDO than others.

Going back to my synopsis of Grim and Barret, a small random dungeon could consist of 20 encounters--14 fights, 2 traps, 2 secret doors, 1 mini-boss fight with chest, and 1 boss fight with chest. Add 2-6 random collectibles and 1-4 random events for flavor. Make sure 4 fights occur before the first non-fight event and you have something that will always play out like Grim and Barret, making it easy to set experience and treasure, but never quite the same way twice.

The system would need a good selection of mini-bosses, bosses, secret encounters, and so forth, but once set up, it should make for a good Cannith Challenge type exercise. From there, it can become even more elaborate as envisioned by the original poster.

To prevent someone from constantly starting new Random Dungeons and taxing the server, I suggest a one Random Dungeon per hour per account lock-out. (Substitute whatever interval works best to prevent abuse.)

I still think the professional game developers at Standing Stone could do much better than anything suggested so far but it is fun to muse on the subject.

[Wonedream]

I took a look at the games mentioned earlier. They have randomized mechanics that are different from each other, which demonstrates further how one can set their own logic system of probabilities. These are old games though, 2d, and look like commodore 64. I am not interested in finding another game, I find DDO fighting mechanics to my likings. Reaper is a blast, and the fights themselves, you can set the challenge and there is temptation luring you to go too high. That is well done.

I made some pictures for what seems to be DDO hamster wheel theory. I did not make this up, but I keep hearing it over and over. It is, that we keep doing the same thing over and over so we can get better at doing the same thing over and over, and we repeat game content to the point we don't even think about it anymore, we just run in there, jump over the trap, kill the boss, next quest... and pace it so you aren't grinding if you have a long PL process ahead, so anything that slows you down isn't as appealing then.

I thought about stepping into one of these random places the other day while running around the Harbor getting reaper exp. I noted the reaper exp makes it possible to PL much faster, and overall might even be faster even with extra 30 racial PLs, but yes, with so many lives ahead I already know each time I run these what to expect and that I will run them again and exploit my knowledge for convenience.

If I was in a place where I didn't know if death was around the corner (like game intro video makes it sound :P), is it a trap, a mob, a boss, my chance to get help from an NPC who wants to join, is the NPC a werewolf??? assassin??? or worse.. or my only chance to survive this place. Do I trust him? Keep searching every few steps of the way, don't miss anything that might lead to a better chance to survive the unknown.. a timer bomb could go off half way into the quest and now I got 5 minutes.. this place is rough, has no mercy, does not care about the gamers safety or chances of success, it is a risk every time I come here. I can't even figure out how tough the monsters are in the difficulty setting, it helps some, but some of them are tougher and some weaker. I am seeing clusters, liars, families of things that makes sense but all coming randomly still.. that mob of baby rust monsters and bigger ones, and the alpha... hurt a lot! Why am I here, I love the surprises, but I am dying way more often, and this is much harder then any quest I already know. It is more exciting, way more exciting, but what makes it so much more exciting? Ah yes, I am here because rewards here are top notch. The exp for risking my butt in these tense you really really can die now kinda of quests where sometimes I get so screwed there is no chance at all, bad luck, evil Dungeon Master put me to a death dungeon and wiped me... but victory is more exp for taking the risk and time to solve these mazes of no mercy. You can mess up down there.. jump down a wrong pit and never come back.. even if its empty.. you are stuck! The bad things that can happen DO happen down there! Beware and be very aware! Double that! But the rewards, not only is it fun, gives great exp upon success scaled to size of conquest, but these unique items I never seen before.. and I WANT THEM!!! Could it be sentient items... with traces of power scattered that slowly make them better, and their unique random nature itself.. or are there study papers I can gather to turn in at the Old School to gain education bonuses to my stats? (mmmmmmmm yummy.. gotta get the cheese!) By adding unique reward now I am jumping through death traps and the unknown fighting and slaying out of my way mobs.. out of my way traps.. to the treasure.. this place is wild yes. So now I know why I keep doing this, and yes, it is loads of fun, every single quest only I ever had, only me, mine all mine the adventure, my own story, my own tale, my own unique victory! It somehow triumphs better to defeat the unknown and get awesome loot then to defeat the farm to get ahead faster!

It turns DDO into perfection!

So here I show the pictures to show the situation according to other people's theory called Hamster Wheel theory:

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/fd8vl5LJoM8/maxresdefault.jpg

Here we got some hamsters running happily on their wheel chasing the goodies. The wheel is made up the DDO land. The goodies are past life feats, epic past life, reaper, iconic, racial, and gear. They chase they things in a frenzy, some do it one way or another, but anyone who wants to make a character better most likely will end up TRing. Some like to keep on one toon, and have it keep going so a long road is great for them. Others like the fight system, and also like the tree development system, but tire of lack of adventure because they know some stuff so will they can almost sleep walk through it. This makes for those people (and this fits anyone playing games :P.. so people playing other games... getting stuff in repeat land...) the road to perfecting their toons predictable, reaper can lure a bit for these types, but not if it is gonna make the road even longer. Reaper does provide us with challenge on demand, and so for that I think it is a great update.

The hamster you see looking off from the wheel is probably thinking "I wonder what it out there, in the unknown place... it seems like I am getting nowhere faster and faster on this wheel, am I just racing my buddies here to get the cheese? What is out there though, perhaps there is more possible reality to explore then this hamster wheel me and my pals are running out... and if I already know it... then its nothing new. Let us set off in search of adventure!!!"

Later on after the Hamster wanders off into the unknown he finds himself in a place now like this in this picture:

https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/mous...s-62111292.jpg

"Where da.. f??? am I??? How... did.. I wind up in this place? It isn't the safe haven of familiar quests I felt so secure doing over and over for easy gains... this place is death!!! It is evil! It HATES me!!! Every time I come here there is that chance I get BOOTED hard, served, and run off with my tail between my legs giving up. Sometimes I screw up, jump down the wrong pit/corridor and can never climb back out. This place can eat me alive without a single monster. I never know when I am gonna activate a trap.. opening doors is scary... touching things... walking... ambushes all over, the layout logic so twisted it is work for my to guestimate every time. Then the monsters, I never know what to plan on... sometimes it just lines up as the big bad luck and a mob of champs somehow are mixed into my humble demise. This place.. it takes longer to move though, I never know how big it is, sometimes its small. Sometimes the objective turns into something I HATE that makes it real hard... and I lose and get mad about it. Wahhh.. oh well, next time I will learn and beat it!!! And get the CHEESEEEE.... the loot... exp here is awesome. Scaled if quest is big, traps help, it knows if I fought a lot of monsters, seems to scale with that too, and even though it is perplexing my brain with riddling maze after riddling death maze, my exp gain is slightly faster then repeat comfort quests I know so well, and there are unique things down here I WANT AND CRAVE... possibly study papers, or sentient items... something down here has me drooling to smack run face first into death over and over in this place"

Ok.. that was quite a thought for a rat. But DDO would turn from Hamster Wheel game into Rat Maze Game. That is a much much more appealing title then Hamster Wheel... it sorta says it all right. You know you are gonna run round and round on it. But endless rat maze of tasty cheese? It already sounds more interesting for someone seeking quests and to pit their minds in puzzling places. Why add puzzles to the game? Because they are fun. But memorizing your way through the dungeon is part of the puzzle.

Here are some OTHER ways to make simplified dungeons, these are all 3d, producing different styles of dungeons.

https://forum.unity3d.com/attachment...o3d-jpg.28143/

In the picture above walls are produced to make the place how you see it. The walls are solid blocks, with very little coordinates, they would still end up taking very little resources and yet produce amazingly complex little modules with lots of twists and turns and places you don't want to jump down or you can't go back. DDO meets pitfall :P Random ladders could easily be added to vertical walls in a place like this. Using the probability logic as shown in here, you could play with constrains to see what is producing consistent good material and what is producing stuff isn't good. You can always set constrains so off that you ruin the result. That is why they are critical for randomization.

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/...mplemaze3d.jpg

Here is a 3d cube maze that looks very very very interesting to run through, even if that was the quest itself.. get through the maze in time, it would be fun. Take away a timer, add monsters, and simple objective, it would be tons of fun. This one could also be made from the blocks by adding a 3d dimension, and would still produce layouts with simple coordinates that are still yielding complex pathways to riddle the mind. Another way to produce something like this very fast is to tell computer entire space is now solid, generate this shape layer in solid cube, now delete the generated area from the solid cube. Bam. Now you got pathways that are complex and a lot of fun to run through. Add good texture, spawns.. done. It could be made to feature rooms, doors, ladders, water, and many other things already existing in game.

This one is perfect for adding a new FLY spell.. don't got the spell? You aren't gonna make it that far. They could add something that gives fly for a certain amount of time. They could add ladders on walls or put water in the low places. Or they could make it so it is no mercy and chances are you won't make it with all those odd shapes to fall down and get stuck in. They could make these things random also, so you could get any of this, or much much different stuff. They could even separate instances to force you through new kinds of root logic so you are in a 3d maze first part of quest, step through door, now you are in a old school sytle dungeon with corridors and rooms.

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/i...Qdp2Qf3vs-ENPA

This picture shows the logic for how dungeon bits would look assembled. Each cube is a bit of dungeon with a path. The bit is either copied from many of the dungeons we already know (which is cool and fun for the brain... "is that... is... is that... Flame Fang's little cove I see in this random dungeon?" maybe it is.. but everything else around it is different, so you wouldn't care that much, you'd be too worried about traps, monsters, secrets, and figuring out where you are in this place.) or a hand crafted bit made by dev team with its own special random features or surprises. They could copy stuff and add more traps then usual, or auto traps, and slip it in.. so we got too comfortable running that path did we... this copy has a surprise!. The paths would take you up and down, north east south west, through water, sewers, crpyts, dungeons, ruins, caves, and countless surprises coupled with sophisticated and beautifully rendered dungeons that are each a truly unique experience and story of their own.

Let the Bards sing tales of those who braved the unknown, over great evil, and achieved glory!

[Wonedream]

Here are some they can absolutely do this stuff right now possibilities. As I thought more and the idea, I realized a lot of stuff they can already do, so lets see how it might be done to make a randomized dungeon. Each method will get its own name, to help refer to how things are being approached, which could be useful for later on.

Monkey Bar Method -

The Devs create a module that is a giant monkey bar cube. They decide if they want to make it 1 floor, 2 floors, or a perfect cube. The monkey bars act like a skeleton. In one of the Shavarath quests they already demonstrated they can place walls that randomly appear sometimes and sometimes not. They have proven they can do this. In the final quest of Wheelon they have shown they can create a floor that you walk on mid-quest. As you need to make the shadow bridge to get to boss.

In this giant monkey bar module, they simple assign the same method for getting random walls and floors (which might be ceilings too if you are under one floor. They can then set constraints and probabilities for how often the walls appear to see what kinds of modules are being produced and then set constraints until all results are within the spectrum of what they want.

This would be easier to make then a normal module. It would also be very easy to alter the monkey bars some to make them and make variants.


Point Method -

This method is similar to the monkey bar method. But instead of using monkey bars and putting wall and floor slabs randomly to turn the monkey bars into a randomized dungeon, it used points, or little balls distributed on a graph grid and stacked at even distances. Slabs are placed randomly to produce floors and walls.


Floors Method -

This would produce an odd place, a different kind of reality that would be easy to alter the background prop while easily placing randomized floors/pathing. A background is produced simply as an endless sea of water (or fire, or something else). A magical floating floor hovers above the ocean and is spread out over a distance so players would be running on these large roads with no walls. They could be made like U beams but so big that the sides of the U become walls, or curved some and made very large like a highway, or very thin like a walk way. They could be flat making it easier to fall of the edged and into the water 50 feet below (swim to the ladder..) making it harder for kiters. This is something they can easily do right now, no question about it. Just randomly generate floors over a sea of water and spread it out so it turns into a quest.


Floor Grid -

Another method they can right now already do is floor grid method. They make a large floor and ceiling zone, set up a grid of vertical or horizontal, and those are the places where walls might or might not appear. Through in some constraints and now they can determine what it ends up looking like (how many walls, secret doors.. ).


Pre set Dungeon Method -

Another one easy to do and that they already can do as previous existing quests have demonstrated is a pre set dungeon method. In this method, the entire ceiling and floor is pre set, maybe 300 by 300 feet, maybe 1000 by 1000 feet. There are 2 massive slabs, a floor and a ceiling that are, let us say, 1000 by 1000 feet squares placed into static space. Now they can add a generator that will produce results like the ones we have seen in one of the two examples (ill edit and add them here in a bit) shown earlier. When a small map is produced, it is used to tell the computer where on the 3d pre set walls, secret doors, and rooms need to be. All the solid walls clip enough so that there are no gaps for anyone to walk out into the unused zones of the module. It is sealed closed within itself, but ends up being a randomized dungeon for anyone inside it, since all they see are the walls and rooms they can get to.

So if a hall way is generated on the small master map, each grid being x2, y3, x3, y3 etc.. and these two are part of a east to west path, master map tells 3d module put walls on north and south side of grid units x2y3 and x3y3 and now those two units have turned into a path in the module. A room... in a unit with no walls, gets no walls, and where the walls are... corner of room or not, it gets 1 or 2 walls and rooms will always be rooms with this system. A wall with a door or secret door is easy enough to add to this. It produced the same results as the block system almost, but is even easier to set up and uses probably even less resources.


Block Method -

This one might be the simplest, and it is basically an altered version of wall slab method. A master map generator is made (these are easy to do, internet has plenty of them already) like the ones in the previous pre set dungeon method. If a block is solid on the master map, it tells module a solid block goes there. It creates solid blocks only on perimeters of dungeon as needed, so it doesnt make solid blocks far off where they have no purpose. If a room is shown on master map, it tells module add slabs on this vertical and this horizontal position as needed. Place door slab here. Place secret door slab here. If dungeons are set sparse enough, and spread out in the right logic, it could make rooms and halls with only blocks to further simplify this process, though that would put more constraints on what kinds of dungeons we get, they could still end up with interesting path logics with dead ends, circles, and lots of places to explore.


Hatch and delete method -

This one starts with a huge solid cube and then creates a path logic layer that overlaps within this solid and then is asked to delete/subtract from solid cube. The left over is the dungeon. This really isn't hard to do, but initially setting it up would involve figuring out the best variables, and how to get the subtraction to work just right. Once set up though, it could generate incredibly complex 3d dungeons with very simply coordinates very rapidly, they wouldn't use much resources, and lag would be less then if they did a module with so many coordinates more. Server resources would be spared whenever a group of players went into one of these dungeons.


Dungeon Bits method -

This one would end up using the same amount of resources as a module of equal size. It is basically a module made up of random bits placed in rows and columns and stacked into a rubix cube. I have explained this one, but a brief explanation here is that each bit is a small mini/incomplete piece that can be fitted with other pieces to produce amazing places that are rich with detail, artistic development, and alive with a feel of their own as you crawl down holes and up climbing cave shafts, go into mazes, or dungeons, or stranger places yet. This one can produce the best looking produce, but would take more time to prepare initially. However, once a working library of dungeon bits is developed, it would be easy to generate all sorts of randomized dungeons with their own distinct spectrum.

You go to the plane of Infernal Hell... using powerful magic. You find yourself in some barren awful land (a randomized landscape slayer area, also easy to do, but I won't get into that for now). The only thing consistent about this place is the gloomy features, and nasty mobs. Fighting your way though... you reach the entrance of a cave. No one has ever been here before. Hell is a huge place. Do you dare enter. Yes...

A randomized dungeon bit hell dungeon is generated using only hell bits. This place is thoroughly and consistently filled with awful sights, things that creep you out, winding caves, torture rooms, prison halls filled with corpses... you must get to the bottom of this mysterious place, it is so exciting to have journey so far, and to KNOW that you are the only one to have ever came here. This adventure belongs to you and your party, no one else will ever see this place again, since hell is so huge and overwhelming, filled with endless mysterious places like this one. Will you survive? Or will you wipe and be left wondering for the rest of your life what was waiting for you at the end because that WAS your only chance ever since that quest will never happen again.

The dungeon bit method is by far the most superior method, because you can use the library to generate more and more complex stuff that is still random with it.

Tear of Dahkan revisited

Tear of Dahkan quest converted into a slayer area... get to city... and find quest entrance! This takes you into the massive super city of the hobgoblins. Now you know where they all really are coming from. This place is so huge that a randomized bit system is used to get through its first few quests until reaching the center of the city where a semi randomized and partially skulpted quest is the final... the Grand Throne of the Hobgoblin Emporer.

Now.. Tear of Dahkan has its original quest... and maybe now an epic version where original area is a slayer to get to the more intense and difficult quests where you really won't know where the traps are...


It could generate an underwater instance for one part of the random quest, giving it its own objective (like so many adventures already do.. start asking yourself how linear or what not is this objective?), after that part is done, a new instance is entered that is now a fire reality spawning fire dungeon bits, so it makes sense and environment consistent for such a place. Objective is completed and yet a 3rd instance is entered. This is the last instance where the final boss awaits. It is a massive maze with an undead minotaur with absurd powers and as soon as party is in maze minotaur begins hunting them from any distance. Fighting it alone is suicide. If they get split up in the maze and lost, they are doomed... it will find and kill them one by one... and to make it worse, the maze is not 2d, it winds up and down, and around, and twists in circles and dead ends...



DDO offers DIFFERENT kinds of reality since we are going to different planes, some quests really don't need to follow the same logic we see over and over. They can get really wild, and need no justification since this is DDO and magic is always a good excuse :P It got that way because... more and more wizards and evil devil kings have been getting trickier and trickier about not getting killed by a group of would-be heroes! If I were a villian, I would use magic to randomize my dungeons with lots of total death, so no one could ever just plan and figure out how to reach me! Heck, I would seek out help from the immense powers of the out planes, using the natures of these places to help mix up and add to the probable deaths of all who come seeking to stop me! There are thousands of reasons why places like these can occur, and it is possible to mix the same objective into different versions so we can do the "same quest" like we are already doing without it really being the same quest.

Example:

Save that dude in Water Works part 2. Same objective every time we run that quest. This same objective can be applied to a randomized version. Now it is the same quest, but no, it is never really the same quest. Save some guy in the massive unexplored water works sewers that have mysteriously become unstable and keep changing every time someone goes down there.

When you save that guy... every time same guy.. .but different quest... he tells you that it is most urgent to destroy the Chaos Crystal before all of Eberron is swallowed up into Limbo and turns into a mess of madness (never happens, just like Lolth never takes over... but gives a new objective for next part..). Now you got to go further into the sewers closer to the Chaos Crystal itself, and this means it will get even more random and confusing and unpredictable. This isn't gonna be as easy as just knowing it in advance...


Another example of a non-dungeon bit quest that puts us in a some new reality, mixes up little bit, and comes out being tons of fun. The Path to the Citadel of Asmodues. After fighting tooth and nail to the deepest part of the mad dungeons your party has discovered a portal. You decide to step through it, being the curious adventurous sort compelled so easily by its mystery.

You find your party standing on a large floating path, about the size of a freeway, so there is plenty of space to walk around. Peering over the edges you realize this path is just floating in space above a massive ocean of endless lava. Falling would be death no matter what. You would never survive, never come back. You must be 100 or more feet above. This massive path has only one way to go... as as your party travels down the path... mobs stand in your way!

Eventually the party reaches a point where the path forks, and realizes this is a massive floating maze... off in the distance they see a hovering city on rock, a very very dangerous looking place.. and apparently this path is slowly leading there...

The path is set up to be 3 subsequent quests, each with some objective that is the same objective each time. The path is never the same, nor the traps, or ambushes (beholders floating underneath path... hehehehee) or mobs of abashai flying about. This is a hell war, maze, quest, and road to a much crazier more intense adventure to get to the citadel of Asmodeus himself... TRULY OLD SCHOOL DDO BADASSERY as party can now go all over these more and more far reaching places that are becoming easier and easier to set up, and keep us guessing along the way!

Ok, I didn't say how the Citadel would be done. But the point was a path way quest with no walls.

It could be done that you are somewhere in the elemental of water and these tubes provide underwater passage. Or you are hovering on paths above an endless ocean in some odd part of the elemental of plane of water.

They could be dreams.. paths in darkness. Or passing through time, with scenes about that you can not engage with. Lots of different things could be done with just this alone and it is easy enough and already can be done.


If the dev team works out these different methods, it can use them to generate material much faster too! Not only would they be able to generate material faster (just set up constraints and place repeating objectives in non-repeating dungeons/quest) but the material would be more challenging every time, forcing us to really play the game like PAPER AND PEN days!!!!

I SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MISSSSS

PAPER AND PEN DAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYSSSSSS!!!

When I didn't know where I was. The first time I ran Tear of Dahkan... not the second or third or 100th.... Static non-randomized dungeons can be used to make complex and artisic rendered quests, but they lose their freshness where am I feeling after the first run and take a long time to make.

Randomized dungeons, once they have stockpiled various methods, and start combining methods to master the means, would end up making it far faster to make quests, and not only that, make us play the Old School Paper and Pen style where we do not know the quests ever, even if the objective is always the same, so many other things can be randomized its always different each time. Even objectives can be randomized and constrained so we can begin to explore vast far reaching places that have their own logics each... Archeron, Paradise, Hell, Abyss, Fire Plane, some other world, or so on. A random quest in the Abyss would have its own logic so it is always... Abyssmal. For the more explicit and artistically demanding randomized places like that of an Abyss quest, dungeon bits would work best to keep up with what the eyes would expect.

For some simpler fun Old School stuff, some of the other methods would work wonderfully for themes such as some I mentioned. In particuliar, it would work great for the Old School University theme where players would go into a simpler version of randomized dungeon, a place made of large monolithic stones, that is set up to train the players to deal with the unknown. They would go hunting for Study Papers, and turn them in for Education Bonuses.. it would be a place with some neat things to find that fit a Hero University concept... the Old School.

It is the right time for DDO to start figuring out randomization methods for dungeons and master the means to be able to quickly create a Universe instead of a few modules that take a long time each time. It is within reach.

[bsquishwizzy]

The reason why we do not have random adventures is most likely because of the tools they currently use to create quests. DDO is not a simple 3D game. Take a good look at some of the lower-level quests and you'll see where height and terrain often make a huge difference int he quest itself. Traps in corridors have to be strategically placed. Treasures and mobs behind secret doors. Levers that trigger additional parts of the dungeon. Conditions that trigger an endfight. This is not something that can be easily scripted in a short period of time.

That being said, I've always contended that the devs have roughly 75% of what they need to create random dungeons. In fact they already have them. Take a good look at King's Forest and/or Temple of Elemental Evil. With the re-spawns, you can run those for HOURS just for mobs and rares. In fact I've done just that. The only thing you're missing at that point is story elements and a boss fight.

Here's how they can make a random dungeon with what they already have (revised from my previous posts):
1) Create several dungeon layouts. Maybe something like 32 of them. Make them large, single-level layouts.
2) In these layouts, create potential "spawn points" for traps and mobs. They kind of already have this right now.
3) Create an extensive list of possible encounters, like they do at king's forest. Have each quest take 4 of these as required, and two optional. These don't have to be actual mobs, but the can also be levers or non-combat quests.
4) Create an extensive list of random bosses required for end fight. Make the end fight "room" only accessible after the 4 objectives have been reached.
5) Create random story elements that tie everything together.

Likewise, if you went the King's Forest route, you wouldn't need multiple layouts. You would just have an expansive terrain upon which you set the rest of the 5 points I've highlighted. Done.

You see, the ONLY thing that separates something like King's Forest from something like the game Moria, or Rogue, or even Diablo - when you think about it - is a random dungeon level generator. There really is no point to having random dungeons being generated in this game. You are not creating an entire random dungeon world that will level you up as you go. So just use one of several layouts, and randomize the contents.

Getting back to Temple of Elemental Evil for a moment: you want to see what a lost opportunity this was for DDO? You had numerous levels with respawning mobs, and random bosses each with their own specific faction. You could have had the option to have one faction leader give the other a sub-quest to assassinate another faction leader in the quest, or to steal something from one of them and return it as opposed to just an outright fight. There was LOADS of room to do this in. But they really didn't add that kind of depth. And it's too bad.

That and "Memoirs of an Illusory Larcener". I think I was reading a WHOLE DIFFERENT sub-genera of "choose your own adventure" book than some of the people at DDO...

[cdbd3rd]

I neither agree nor disagree with the topic, but that's a lot of thinking & typing for the idea - and THAT I can appreciate. /Props.


There are two diametrically opposed forces at work in the game that will block any sort of major revision like what is proposed through this thread. Major development takes times & resources. (AKA: MONEY.) The game is chock full of people who are trying their darnedest to play as much as possible without giving up their resources. (Again: MONEY.)

Those two things just don't play well together.

[Wonedream]

I neither agree nor disagree with the topic, but that's a lot of thinking & typing for the idea - and THAT I can appreciate. /Props.


There are two diametrically opposed forces at work in the game that will block any sort of major revision like what is proposed through this thread. Major development takes times & resources. (AKA: MONEY.) The game is chock full of people who are trying their darnedest to play as much as possible without giving up their resources. (Again: MONEY.)

Those two things just don't play well together.

As I explained, some of these random dungeons would take less time then a normal module. And if they build a stockpile of methods, they can begin to generate new material 5 times a week or more. They could make 50 freaking modules in a day if they master the methods and stockpile these methods into the means (by which it is possible). A floor system only they already have and can do right now super easy. A monkey bar system they can do right now and easy. The point system they can also do right now. The Dungeon Bit system might take some time, but with it they can..

they can TURN DDO into a UNIVERSE instead of a a few fractions of city, some modules, and some tiny wilderness areas. With a random system they can have players wondering though long deserts or forests that make King's forest look small, simply give 3-5 randome regions to cross... get from side a to side b only.. the Dungeons bits would would not be hard to develop, most of their material can be...

copied from already existing quests.


If you are asking about money, to make this would not use a lot of money, and once the method is perfected it will be worth MORE then using the old system that takes so long to pump out a few quests that will only be new one time. With this they can pump out 10 quests a day if they want to... which will equate to a lot of $$$ when lots of people all over the net leave their games when they hear DDO is the first game to make an Amazing random quest generator and is further developing its methods from there.


Player money??? If there is one thing I would pay more for in a game then anything... it is what I just described. I would pay money to purchase access to these places. They would be able to generate many different places with different themes... all random and totally full of surprise with very little investment after the system is set up... I would BUY each one.. so now they are making something I would pay for faster then something that takes a long time and I may or may not pay for.


I would even volunteer to help make this.

Heck, if money is the excuse... what if a team of volunteers offered their help free of pay? I can be very useful as I have spent 20 years working with technical graphics.

[Wonedream]

Here is an article talking about themepark games and how the future of gaming will belong to games that use PROCEDURAL GENERATION SYSTEMS. This is exactly what I am seeing myself too. If I can find a game like DDO with a randomized generation system, coined procedural generation system.. then I will go play that game in a heart beat if it has a good system and not some of the lousy work I have seen so far. We are talking about a system that is able to provide logical yet unpredictable adventures, with twists, turns, and changes throughout. So far no MMORPG has done this to my liking, and I really do hope DDO is the first. But if not, yes, I will go to whatever place can provide my an experience outside the themepark content, and provide me a unique my-toon-only-saw-that-went-there experience that makes me feel like I really am exploring the unknown.

"MMOs are infamous for the exorbitant amount of both time and money that is required to make a fantastic end product. Much of this effort and expenditure goes into producing very specific content such as leveling zones, quest chains, and dungeons. The classic themepark MMO in which all the rides are carefully engineered and maintained is compelling for a time, but the content therein tends to take longer to create than it does to exhaust. This invariably leads to redundant content that ends up on the scrapheap once it has been enjoyed for a time.

Procedural generation corrects much of this redundancy by providing essentially limitless variations of content, adding replayability and variety to the usual MMO repertoire. It also opens up some unique mechanics, like Elite: Dangerous' planned procedurally generated galaxy that is a full-scale replica of the Milky Way.

In this week's MMO Mechanics, I will look at how the genre is evolving because of how accessible procedural generation techniques have become to developers. I'll also explore how this might affect the future of MMOs by examining the mechanics that upcoming titles will incorporate."

https://www.engadget.com/2014/02/26/...is-the-future/


I emboldened and underlined the most important part for DEVS to pay attention to. And I will keep telling them this until they get it and I get to play real original awesome content nonstop or until someone else gets it and I go there to get what I want. Since I really like DDOs game mechanics, I do hope it is the first to do this:

MAKE A GAME THAT PRACTICALLY MAKES ITSELF FOR YOU INSTEAD OF MAKES YOU MAKE IT FOR IT

That is, make a quest generation system that enables you to quickly alter constrains to create an entire universe instead of just making more themeparks. This is the future, if you do not do this, someone sooner or later will, and who ever does the first really good job will RULE the gaming industry 100%!

[Draksel]

if this were done, i foresee an exponential increase in the use of /stuck.

[Wonedream]

So I am now looking at this Elite: Dangerous which uses procedural generation methods to create a milky way that can be explored. This is a massive place with all sorts of bizarre combinations of variables. Apparently you fly in a ship through space, but it is offering something like what I am looking for so I will check it out. I hope DDO does this... it could add a...

It could add a MULTIVERSE with not just one milky way... but

The outer planes each being their own kind of reality using a variable system to make it so they are basically each their own universe. Imagine how players would have to find new levels of cooperation to explore the vast depths of such places "Yeah, my toon is wayyyyyy out lost in some Abyssmal plane... here are the directions to get to the dungeon I am in right now :P" Just being able to go so far out, through portals, and what not, DDO could take this even further, but first it would have to lock down on a single universe. But before it can do that it has to work out its methods and produce regions and/ or just the ability to generation dungeons on a whim that are not repetitive (I have shown how it is possible to mix up the variables so much you end up with endless variations of themes, content, etc) so they can be placed on randomized landscapes for explorer areas...

"You explore a new area no one has ever been to before, with its own monster encounter logic (which had its processes randomly determined) and after a while you have located the entrance to a dungeon..."

They will first need to have the parts before they can look at combining these into bigger systems that oversee larger processes. Starting with a Simple Randomized Dungeon is the first step to developing a good randomized dungeon system. And developing a good randomized dungeon system is a first step to developing a Superb Procedural Generation System that can LITERALLY give DDO players a Multiverse far greater and bigger to explore then anything even 100,000 Devs making modules day and night can produce... develop a procedural generation system that spawns it all for you based on what you told it was possible and how your logic distributed the probabilities!

[Wonedream]

if this were done, i foresee an exponential increase in the use of /stuck.

Yeah, I am sure it would happen more often in these places. I would still go there over and over, and hopefully the /stuck would work twice as fast and have its cooldown half as long for randomized places as such.

Learning how to do this will involve some bugs... probably no more then we are already seeing if they do a good job, but even if there where a few more, it would still be worth it to go explore the unknown and have access to content no one else ever saw or will see again.


Another fix for this is let us compare a random dungeon to VON2. VON2 bugs a lot in many ways. You used to get stuck in some places over and over but that was fixable since it is a static module. Sometimes the spiders dissappear and you don't get your ladder. You can not complete the quest then. Sometimes in VON1 the monsters don't come out during arena fight...

Now in this randomized place if a nack or noony gets you stuck Dev team will never get to fix it, because it the quest is not saved and will vanish after you leave. What they can do is look at what constraints are going to be needed to reduce or control such places from happening, and go into the probability and constraining system an make some changes so random dungeons stops spawning landscape that does that.

What about the content bugging and now you can't go on? Again, in quest, they won't be able to fix that. But again, they can look at the constraining system that allowed it to happen in the first place and add constrains to control it so it doesn't happen as often or at all anymore.

As to YOU.. poor YOU in the quest who spent 45 minutes grinding through monsters and traps only to get trapped in a bugg... with no possible fix for THAT particular quest... they could add a option for Randomized Dungeon/Material Content only called

Bug Out - Bugging out is like Recalling, but you do not get end reward treasure, nor full exp bonus. Instead it adds up the number of monsters you killed and their ratings, how many secret doors you explored, and traps you found and solved, along with how many objectives you got. It then scales this appropiately so you still get something for the time spent pitting yourself against the unknown, which is still adventure and still an experience that deserves... experience points