Random Dungeons Old School Simple Version

[Wonedream]

I can almost guarantee that by tomorrow this time you'll be the only one posting in this thread or it won't even make it to first 20 threads active.

This pic is on gramh folks... thank him for its manifestation!



Impressive isn't it. And yes, this is virtual.

[Wonedream]

An interesting descent.

[Wonedream]

With the right coordinates, this is the sort of graphical effects you can end up with and the sort of random feel of Wilderness also. This pic is of a randomly generated wilderness at a cave entrance. I am amazed, while I would expect to see this level of graphics in DDO, I think this level of randomness is possible so that the cave would still have a random wild feel to it, just a bit less detail, still would be superb if these are the sort of places that end up getting generated by a system that can provide a Multiverse.

[Wonedream]

Before making the entire world of Eberron into an explorable place filled with random quests... random quest logistics must be developed, tested, and put into game. They can then be tweaked, having their settings changes to create all sorts of new and interesting places. The advanced system would have to be built upon the knowledge gained from doing the simple version.

But for now I want to discuss turning Eberron into a real world we can walk around, instead of limited areas, how this can be done without actually needing to make a world, because that is TOOOOO much work.

We will begin with a map of Eberron:



Now this map has known areas and unknown wilderness areas, and possibly areas with roads on them. That brings up to 3 types of basic instances, known instances, unknown instances, and roadway instances. Known instances would be places like the Marketplace, Harbor, some of the slayer areas, etc. They would want to add some slayer areas around the city that includes farms and country life just before it ends and wilderness takes over. Let us say they use a Hexogon system, then for every known area they would want to handcraft an instance on one of the adjustent hexes so all known areas are surrounded by new known areas that show how the city turns into country... if I leave my city... eventually I am in the country between the city and the wilderness. These areas would or could also be known areas, or could have some randomized system as well. Beyond that you leave the known areas and enter the wilderness, these hexagons can be forest, mountain, plains, etc, each with its own randomized landscape probabilities and logistics. Each instance getting a coordinate similiar to a GPS.. it would look like this:



You will note that many of these hexagons are the same symbol, in which case they would represent wilderness of plains, mountains, volcanos, Sea, and so on. When and if you wonder to the edge of one landscape explorer instance, a pop up would inform you that you are leaving that instance and about to enter a new one. These instances are then generated using a procedural generated system, and will get monsters and other things placed in them as well, possibly a cave to some quest no one ever seen before or will see again. When they leave the instance, it is deleted instead of saved, this saves Mem because it would be too much Mem to save the entire world possibly, but if not, the Dev Team could make the world all known instances without hand crafting every one.

Now you step into a wilderness instance and something like this gets generated:



And if you guessed forest, or forest mountain side, you guessed right. Places like this could be provided on demand as toon walks around the planet or swims or what not. (ok... really you would get tired trying to swim across the ocean, but that is another issue).

This would be a good place to use a Fly spell... something the game will want to add eventually anyways, but with constraints so it isnt abused in many quests.


Now for paths, they could either handcraft all terrain with paths in them leading from one known place to another, or they could make add a path logic to the forest so it knows the path (be it a yellow brick road, stone path, gravel, dirt road, cobble stones.. or a RIVER...) goes from north to east or so on.



No one is forced to travel this long way, shortcuts in city still exist (but they might charge a few GPs now), but it would be loads of fun going off into the wilderness in search of whatever randomness (possibly a cave, or mines, or dungeon... or... keep on...the borderlands...) of quest and adventure that awaits them. This would make Eberron feel much bigger just knowing these areas exist, and even when you are in the city you would not feel like that was all there was to existence, but that you were in an actual virtual planet named... Eberron!

I didn't get too much into how to get procedural generations to do this, just how to fit wilderness areas of generated areas into a system that gives us a virtual world to explore without actually needing to handcraft a virtual world. There is already some info and ideas here how this can be done, and plenty of material all over the internet with manuals and guides explaining step for step how to set up different kinds of procedural generated systems.

Procedural generated systems is the ONLY way DDO will ever make a real virtual UNIVERSE!!! (because it can be generated faster then it takes to get from one instance to the other, something a handcrafting team can never do)

[spyyder976]

I also would love a random dungeon quest area that we could do whenever we wanted to escape the tediousness of doing the same quests over and over again with different toons. Neverwinter Nights had a premium quest pack of Infinite Dungeons that was completely randomized and awesome, which I bought and played a lot, but my computer with it on it died, and you can no longer download it, even though you paid for it. And you do know that they're looking to hire another game designer/developer don't you? Maybe you should apply and move there and build this for us OP!

[Gremmlynn]

Procedural generated systems is the ONLY way DDO will ever make a real virtual UNIVERSE!!! (because it can be generated faster then it takes to get from one instance to the other, something a handcrafting team can never do)

Not to say this is a bad idea in general. But it's not something one would be likely to tack on to an existing game. Especially a game like DDO that seems to have been made in a diametrically opposed manner.

I would think this would be the sort of thing that would be best as a foundation level mechanic. Something the rest of the game is built around so the game code used would be optimized towards that foundation.

Frankly adding any revolutionary new type of system would be a case of reinforcing, if not so much failure, but mediocrity at best. Better to launch something new that isn't tied to that mediocrity, but with the more successful aspects of DDO used.

[Careall]

There already is a pseudo-random dungeon: The Shadow Crypt. This is the most likely form of potential random dungeon in DDO today, where there are pre-designed modules (areas) that you teleport to when leaving a module. The scripting system, I am fairly sure, should be able to handle tracking a set of connection points such as; A <-> F, B <-> R, C <-> M, and so on. If not, adding that functionality to the scripting system should not be too difficult or costly. Memoirs of an Illusory Larcener seemed to also be playing around with some mechanics that could potentially be used for a random dungeon. It appears the players generally stay in a single place; the teleport area, and the dungeon spawns around them. The quest is ok, but there are some issues in that design style that still need to be ironed out before it could go random.

DDO has one of the best physics and AI systems (imho), especially for a game as old as it is. However, there are still problems with these systems as they stand. Occasionally, even in carefully hand-crafted dungeons, toons get stuck. Heck, much to my surprise, I just got stuck the other day in the marketplace and had to use the /stuck command! A randomly generated dungeon would have this problem too often. Then there is the AI pathing: There are already too many complaints about how stupid the AI can get - Hires, Pets, and Mobs all rely on the pathing system to get from point A to B. Certainly, a randomized dungeon in the scheme of The Shadow Crypt would have far less of a problem, but there are new problems introduced.

The most notable issue is that AI cannot cross through teleporters. This seems to be a pretty solid rule in every dungeon. Mobs can't follow you through a teleporter making for easy escapes - just run to the last dungeon room. Closing and locking doors behind players and/or force fields could prevent this, but also prevents much-needed escape routes when things get too tough. It's a balance between an abusive use of teleports versus chance to escape like in regular dungeons where you can just keep running and hope to get close enough to a shrine. Pets and AI can follow you through teleporters, but cannot initiate a teleport on their own. When you die and your hire/pet picks up your stone and... you can't leave the room because the hire/pet can't go through the teleporter. A rescue mission is needed, a cake, or recall. Not the end of the world for sure, but a consideration.

I have noticed recently that mobs have been trained to open some doors/gates on their own. Perhaps it would not be too difficult to train mobs to use teleporters too. However, I am also sure the pathing would have to be recalculated immediately after teleport. AI pathing is an extremely heavy resource drain (a.k.a. LAG!). Multiply that by 10 to 20 mobs using a teleporter at the same time... and suddenly you're playing turn-based DDO.

[KoobTheProud]

I also would love a random dungeon quest area that we could do whenever we wanted to escape the tediousness of doing the same quests over and over again with different toons. Neverwinter Nights had a premium quest pack of Infinite Dungeons that was completely randomized and awesome, which I bought and played a lot, but my computer with it on it died, and you can no longer download it, even though you paid for it. And you do know that they're looking to hire another game designer/developer don't you? Maybe you should apply and move there and build this for us OP!

Random dungeons done well might extend the playable life of DDO for years for players that would otherwise burnout on the same instances over and over.

An expandable RDG would be almost a new game to explore, backed by all the old systems.

[Wonedream]

I also would love a random dungeon quest area that we could do whenever we wanted to escape the tediousness of doing the same quests over and over again with different toons. Neverwinter Nights had a premium quest pack of Infinite Dungeons that was completely randomized and awesome, which I bought and played a lot, but my computer with it on it died, and you can no longer download it, even though you paid for it. And you do know that they're looking to hire another game designer/developer don't you? Maybe you should apply and move there and build this for us OP!

I wish I had the time for this, but I am juggling many operations now, and my company is a lot to manage. I look forward to releasing my product soon, it's gonna be a big step to take, and there will be no going back once this happens. I am left no choice but to pour my life experience into this process, there are so many variables to consider, and at times I am a bit overwhelmed not by what I am doing, but by knowledge of what that big step will mean for my life. This is all the more reason I must take measure and care to get it right. I have notified a friend who could pull it off, he will likely get around to answering soon. Unfortunately, I hardly have time to play anymore, my days are back to back busy and even then there isnt enough time.

I hope to see this built into DDO, I find the ideas involved in this game to be very interesting. Time will tell. Maybe one day I will finance this myself when I become insanely rich, but for now, I have to stay focused and learn as I go.

[Wonedream]

I have loosened up some time on Sundays to run PnP campaigns with some friends. Loads of fun. I am using random dungeon and npc generators found online to quickly make unique campaigns for them to run through while keeping them in a storyline environment.

They are on a dying planet, being overrun by the undead as city after city falls to the masses. The desperate king drafted them into military service, issued a military edict to kill any who retreat, and stationed them to guard the walls as the city was surrounded by a massive army of undead. As the fog and dead rolled up to the walls, they planned to escape this doomed battle by jumping off the walls and running off into the woods during the thick of battle, but realized there were far too many undead down at the bottom of the city walls to have any real chance to pull that off.

Instead they opted to use the city sewers to escape, and managed to slip unnoticed when the clawed nasties started climbing the walls with ease and tearing into the ranks. They jumped into the septic sludge and made way through the sewers, two from the group passing out from septic shock, but managed to get to a safe room before they all passed out (which would mean they all die as they float and drown in **** and ****). Taken a bit of time to recover, the screams and howls of the undead could be heard coming from the sewer drain entrance they used to jump down from... obvious the undead have found this entrance too and some apparently are jumping down to scout for runaways.

The sewer they entered, I used a random generated dungeon from online to make, with very few rooms and lots of corridors. Worked out perfectly. PnP is so much fun! Can do so much so quick, and has all the features of DnD!

I left them at that cliff hanger, and my friends didn't want to stop "one more room! Really... one more room... then the cliff hanger"

"Nope, it is 6:30 in the morning, I can't think anymore, next week "


I am an old school DM, with a avid love for the game!

I hope to one day see these sort of random systems incorporated into DDO, I continue to believe it is possible, and it would be so rewarding for everyone, both SSG and players.. equating to endless fun and mass revenues $$$.


I look forward to seeing if the party can manage to get out of the sewers alive :P Hopefully they stop kicking the Palidan in tease, after all, in a world full of undead a Palidan makes a great ally

Also noted the special effects in the DDO game appear to be better then before, well done SSG, I admire your commitment to this game. I turned one of my friends on to it, and now he is level 3 He has always played Ninja... so as soon as he unlocks monk... he will be running around playing Ninja in DDO having fun. Keep up the good work and Kudos!

[Wonedream]

IF IF IF IF IF


IF IF IF IF

IFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

Ravenloft is being delayed because they are working on adding procedural generation processes for randomized dungeons... and this is taking longer....

(potentially aroused...)

IT IS WORTH IT!!! Because DDO WILL THEN BE BEST GAME ONLINE PERIOD HISTORY THE END!!!


This is the future of gaming... SOONER OR LATER... I hope DDO leads the way!

[Avocado]

IF IF IF IF IF


IF IF IF IF

IFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

Ravenloft is being delayed because they are working on adding procedural generation processes for randomized dungeons... and this is taking longer....

(potentially aroused...)

IT IS WORTH IT!!! Because DDO WILL THEN BE BEST GAME ONLINE PERIOD HISTORY THE END!!!


This is the future of gaming... SOONER OR LATER... I hope DDO leads the way!

I sincerely hope this is not the case. They should see how ravenlof holds up for end game before embarking on your misguided idea. The doesn't solve the issues of ddo. Invalidating old content and increasing the power can is the issue with the game. Lack of content in end game is only a problem because of the misguided idea of vertical progression. Vertical progression is not a thing. The content of harder but you make it have the same minimum level as old gear is just plain stupid. The devs brought the lack of end game on them selves and the only way to fix it is to nerf the heck out slavers and u36 loot. Down to max 12 stars.

[Annex]

Keep the dream alive!

Cordovan already said Ravenloft is still scheduled for this year.

[Wonedream]

I sincerely hope this is not the case. They should see how ravenlof holds up for end game before embarking on your misguided idea. The doesn't solve the issues of ddo. Invalidating old content and increasing the power can is the issue with the game. Lack of content in end game is only a problem because of the misguided idea of vertical progression. Vertical progression is not a thing. The content of harder but you make it have the same minimum level as old gear is just plain stupid. The devs brought the lack of end game on them selves and the only way to fix it is to nerf the heck out slavers and u36 loot. Down to max 12 stars.

You are not totally clear here, but I am not always clear either.

What I found odd is that you did not address anything at all how procedural generated dungeons and game content would not be good. Not a single line there added up anyway to that. Only a hope, which was also not clear.

Are you aware of how a good randomized module connecting 3d process could turn this into endless adventure where you do not know the dungeon or objective ahead of time, where the dungeon and objectives can totally change on you to throw off predictions by just stepping in?

Do you know how much fun MORIA was, a 2D simple version of procedural generated dungeons. If that was 3d... holy ****... FUNNNNNNN!!!!!


Or how easy it is to merge new gear into this. Or new content into it. Simply control the randomization constrains.

Have you read all 5 pages of this thread and do you really understand what a procedural generated module is?


It is the best way to stop this ridiculous TR problem which has gotten stupid really... 150 TRs or so... ****ing ********!

With random dungeons, endgame is complete. Just make a few of these things with different constrains and they will all come out feeling and looking way different from each other and still be random.


I know they have the ability. Too many randomized features already in the game, from walls, to connections, to where that chest is in the maze of Prisoner.

Or if it is even there at all.



Can you imagine, are you capable of imagining what this would be like?


Where at cap level 30 endless content and stuff for farm is happening at the same time?

Sentient items that require you to STAY at level 30 and go deep deep deep into these dungeons to improve.


If they did it right, the dugeons could randomly end up very odd and dangerous down low.

They might connect... you beat the one part, but have to beat a series, and do NOT know what they will be. Second part... is 50% underwater...

Go deeper and holes connecting to the lower planes start to emerge...

Or you could end up in the Abyss with its 666 layers of madness...

For those still TRing, what a breath of fresh air... something totally unpredictable... with good awards and great exp...

It would not be FARMING anymore, it would be ADVENTURE. Two different things.

Farming is when you KNOW the quest and just want the item, or exp from it.

Adventure is when you do NOT know the quest and want to explore and encounter new challenges.


DDO has turned into a farm game with hamsters running a TR wheel. It is a disaster in its current state.

It still has the most interesting character development and fighting process of all MMORPGs and that is why I am here still.


And I continue to remain aware of this potential, which is MASSIVE.

Kill TRing and no more complains about "I lost my gear, I lost my tomes... or TRing hamster sucks"

It is the ultimate and perfect solution for all the most major issues messing with the game.


I hope you read this thread carefully and really understand what it is talking about, instead of looking at the last few paragraphs and forming the wrong opinion.

Yes, the DREAM lives on, and we might be seeing it soon.

99.9% will agree. Many will change their minds when they realize how much fun it is. There will only be that .1% stubborn people who refuse to ADMIT this is the best system possible because they are too proud to admit they where wrong.

Just ignore them and have fun with the other 99.9%!

We might be on the verge of the greatest update of all time.

Which would have delays naturally.

Patience.

This is going to happen probably at some point.

This is the best sort of update possible, it would give them the power to create a UNIVERSE for us to explore, not just a city and limited areas. Heck they could alters constrains to create a MULTIVERSE with different Universes in it, each generated infinity and deleted as need be so that we could literally run forever into the dark void of space... might need to make our Airships into Space Ships then... Warjammer style!

Then throw in the Planescape stuff. Not with Ravenloft off course, but Ravenloft working on a procedural dungeon system would fix TR problem, endgame problem gear grind problem, and losing stuff problem all at the same time. We could finally park our capped toons at 30 and PLAY FOREVER ENDLESS CONTENT WITH THEM!


YESSSS PLEASEEEE IM ON MY FREAKING KNEES FOR THIS!!!!

I will TR one toon only, but not because I prefer to play that way, because the game pushed me into it for my toon to be best it can be.

They should eliminate TRs by 50% and just give the Racial bonuses for free as you level up.

They should double the rewards of Class TR so it is half time, only 20ish times not 40. And do this also with Epics so it is 18 not 36. Iconics should also be eliminated.

Get people at cap where they want to be. Give them endless content and you won't even have to babysit them really.

The only chance for that to be lasting, and not outdated next update is with a good procedural system. That is the ONLY WAY. Nothing else will ever work.

Nothing else has worked either.

Look at how things are now, everyone spread out, complaining about this or that, lfms too thin, no endgame, TR is insane, losing gear from so many TRs, breaking hearts...

With endless content taking the place of TR insanity... no more complains about endgame. LFMs become massive. TR is gone, so no losing gear, happy people having fun and more happy to spend money supporting the fun instead of buying lives with Pandora's Boxes to try to get past the nasty grind of endless TRing. Most people just will go to another game when they see how awful it has gotten.

That is why our player base is shrinking.


DDO and SSG NEED THIS BADLY.

And I want to have supreme fun, nothing less!

Please understand what this thread is really about. Please read it carefully. This is the biggest problem solver possible!

[Gremmlynn]

What I found odd is that you did not address anything at all how procedural generated dungeons and game content would not be good. Not a single line there added up anyway to that. Only a hope, which was also not clear.

If you don't mind, I'm going to take a swing or two at this one.

First off, I do like the concept.

The thing is, I have misgivings about trying to jury-rig something like this on to DDO. It seems likely it would only add to code spaghettification and likely wouldn't work well in this rather tired old game.

The other thing is, it would be somewhat like investing in designing a state of the art automotive system for Yugos. It just makes little sense from a business standpoint. For those of us that play DDO, it's a great game. But from an industry perspective it's pretty meh. Also, for those of us that play it would be a great addition, but for the rest of the market it likely wouldn't be much more than "I wish my game would do that" news.

If I were to be doing something like this, I would want to do it for a new game designed from the ground up around it on an engine selected due to it's compatibility with it and the rest of the game designed around the strengths of that engine and with code synergy to avoid spaghettification and with a basic growth plan based on that concept. I surely wouldn't waste a lot of effort reinforcing, if not failure so much, meh. I'd be looking to hit a home run, not enhance a blooper single with that investment. As, even if it turns out to work great with DDO, it wont make DDO the new WoW. It could do that with some game that's new and shiny and hasn't already pretty much cemented it's position in the marketplace.

[Uska]

IF IF IF IF IF


IF IF IF IF

IFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

Ravenloft is being delayed because they are working on adding procedural generation processes for randomized dungeons... and this is taking longer....

(potentially aroused...)

IT IS WORTH IT!!! Because DDO WILL THEN BE BEST GAME ONLINE PERIOD HISTORY THE END!!!


This is the future of gaming... SOONER OR LATER... I hope DDO leads the way!

Sounds wretched

[Wonedream]

Sounds wretched

Oh yeah, as if reincarnating 150ish times isn't wrteched :P

And each time you do it, your toon gets buggier obviously...

And you play russian rhoulete with your toon...

Yeap, because having us TR 150 times doing the same **** over and over is the solution right?

Look, let's just NOT talk to each other then. If you cant see what a disaster TRing 150 times with bugs building up and then on top of it running the same stuff over and over... there is no point and no hope in talking with you.

This system would offer endless new content, endgame, and solutions to keep people playing without turning their toon into a buggy mess while doing the same stuff over 150 times... which is really pretty sad.


You have in the past done this, and by now I begin to wonder if maybe you really work for a competitor and are here to give such lousy advice as to destroy the game so as to destroy competition...

I don't trust you.

[Wonedream]

If you don't mind, I'm going to take a swing or two at this one.

First off, I do like the concept.

The thing is, I have misgivings about trying to jury-rig something like this on to DDO. It seems likely it would only add to code spaghettification and likely wouldn't work well in this rather tired old game.

The other thing is, it would be somewhat like investing in designing a state of the art automotive system for Yugos. It just makes little sense from a business standpoint. For those of us that play DDO, it's a great game. But from an industry perspective it's pretty meh. Also, for those of us that play it would be a great addition, but for the rest of the market it likely wouldn't be much more than "I wish my game would do that" news.

If I were to be doing something like this, I would want to do it for a new game designed from the ground up around it on an engine selected due to it's compatibility with it and the rest of the game designed around the strengths of that engine and with code synergy to avoid spaghettification and with a basic growth plan based on that concept. I surely wouldn't waste a lot of effort reinforcing, if not failure so much, meh. I'd be looking to hit a home run, not enhance a blooper single with that investment. As, even if it turns out to work great with DDO, it wont make DDO the new WoW. It could do that with some game that's new and shiny and hasn't already pretty much cemented it's position in the marketplace.

Honestly it is the last thing that will save this game and cement it, instead of it fading into a trickle of players.

There might be some bugs, but they are nothing compared to those bugs making TRing lose things... DISASTER!!!

I say get rid of TRing completely, add a raid that gives PLs but is tough and risky and lvl 30 only, and add random stuff too so we don't have to TR ever again.

TRing is STUPID!

And now it is BUGGY TOO!

Instead of getting us to repeat stuff until literally the game breaks (as we watch it happen now), get rid of that mechanism so we do not TR, and the TR bugs won't happen. And we get to run endless new content. It is a complete win situation for game and players and developers.

TRing failed.

Time to accept this and really fix it.

[Gremmlynn]

Honestly it is the last thing that will save this game and cement it, instead of it fading into a trickle of players.

Except, at this point it wont help enough to justify the expense. If a game isn't a hit within a year of launch, it very likely never will be.

There might be some bugs, but they are nothing compared to those bugs making TRing lose things... DISASTER!!!

Among a lot of other bugs, mostly due to trying to patch in new features the game wasn't built to handle. Which just gives more reason not to invest heavily in this game.

I say get rid of TRing completely, add a raid that gives PLs but is tough and risky and lvl 30 only, and add random stuff too so we don't have to TR ever again.

TRing is STUPID!

And now it is BUGGY TOO!

Then don't TR. I don't and that has never had anything to do with those bugs, which have always been there by the way. I just don't see the meager rewards worth the pain in the ass that I find re-leveling and often playing out of the intended build is. I mean it's a nice option to have for respecing purposes, but if I'm happy with a character, I don't see it as a good reason to change it.

Instead of getting us to repeat stuff until literally the game breaks (as we watch it happen now), get rid of that mechanism so we do not TR, and the TR bugs won't happen. And we get to run endless new content. It is a complete win situation for game and players and developers.

TRing failed.

Time to accept this and really fix it.

No, I think it's time for people to accept that this game is what it is. A marginally successful, at best, game that, while we really like it, isn't really a good platform for major innovation or investment. I simply makes no business sense to put much effort into "fixing" this game at this point. It's to far past it's prime to attract the sort of customer base that would make the effort worthwhile. It's like an old beater car, you put in what you have to to keep it going, but you don't worry about body work beyond smacking it with a hammer enough to allow the doors to open, or new paint beyond slapping some primer bare spots on to keep is from rusting out. Then use it to get around until it costs more than it's worth to keep it going.

Like I said, great idea, just not a great idea to use it in a game that's unlikely to maximize the return on the investment of developing it.

[Avocado]

My issue with tr ing is the power gap it has created. They could easily make end game by updating the already level 30 content. Making the gear viable. The devs shot themselves in the foot by invalidating all there old loot. Why is slavers level 28 which can give 27 spell crit and 185 sp and t3 thunderforged is 28 and gives 22 crit and 150 sp. That isn't vertical progression. That is just dumb. Thunderforged is all but useless. If they could stop invalidating the previous updates loot then I will return to the game. There is no point in farming for stuff if in 3 months it's worthless.