Dwarven Bard Thrower - Ultimate Bad Axe

[bobafettucine]

Been playing around with a dwarven bard/ranger/rogue throwing axe build.

I like bard stuff like Displace/FoM/DD/Haste, decent heals, Inspire Excellence & Swashbuckler.
Dwarf for Throw Your Weight Around, HP and the axe enhancement, and because Dwarves!
Rogue for trapping (might add in another level for evasion, but medium armour isn't so gimp anymore)

I know he doesn't get the extra throws of a standard shuriken build, but axes have much better base damage, and a x3 crit multiplier (with swashy enhancements the smaller crit window is less of an issue).

Haven't crunched the numbers on this yet but I thought I would throw it up here to see how it will be ripped to shreds.


Ultimate Bad Axe
15/4/1 Bard/Ranger/Rogue
True Neutral Dwarf


Level Order

1. Rogue . . . . . 6. Bard. . . . . .11. Bard. . . . . .16. Bard
2. Ranger. . . . . 7. Bard. . . . . .12. Bard. . . . . .17. Bard
3. Ranger. . . . . 8. Bard. . . . . .13. Bard. . . . . .18. Bard
4. Ranger. . . . . 9. Bard. . . . . .14. Bard. . . . . .19. Bard
5. Ranger. . . . .10. Bard. . . . . .15. Bard. . . . . .20. Bard


Stats
. . . . . . . .36pt . . Tome . . Level Up
. . . . . . . .---- . . ---- . . --------
Strength. . . . .8. . . .+5. . . .4: CON
Dexterity . . . 16. . . .+5. . . .8: CON
Constitution. . 20. . . .+5. . . 12: CON
Intelligence. . 12. . . .+5. . . 16: CON
Wisdom. . . . . .8. . . .+5. . . 20: CON
Charisma. . . . 12. . . .+5. . . 24: CON
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .28: CON

Skills
. . . . .Rg Rn Rn Rn Rn Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd
. . . . . 1 .2. 3 .4. 5 .6 .7 .8 .9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
Disable . 4 .1. 1 .1. 1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .23
Open Lo . 4 .1. 1 .1. 1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .23
Search. . 4 .1. 1 .1. 1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .23
UMD . . . 4 . . . . . . . . 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 2. 2. 2. 1. 1. 1. 21
Perform . 2 . . . . . . .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .2 .2 .2 .20
Spot. . . 4 .1. 1 .1. 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .8
Jump. . . 4 .1. 1 .1. 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .8
Swim. . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .3
Tumble. . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
. . . . .32 .7. 7 .7. 7 .7 .8 .8 .8 .8 .8 .8 .8 .8 .9 .9 .9 .9 .9 .9
. . . . .36 .7. 7 .7. 7 .7 .8 .8 .8 .8 .8 .8 .8 .8 .9 .9 .9 .9 .9 .9


Feats

.1. . . . : Dodge
.2 Ranger : Favored Enemy: Undead
.3. . . . : Point Blank Shot
.6. . . . : Precision
.9. . . . : Quicken Spell
12. . . . : Improved Critical: Thrown
15. . . . : Improved Precise Shot
18. . . . : Quick Draw
21 Epic . : Combat Archery
24 Epic . : Overwhelming Critical
26 Destiny: Guardian Angel
27 Epic . : Inspire Excellence
28 Destiny: Doubleshot
29 Destiny: Harbinger of Chaos
30 Epic . : Epic Damage Reduction
30 Legend : Scion of: Arborea


Spells

Bard

1. Detect Secret Doors, Cure Light Wounds, Feather Fall, Remove Fear
2. Blur, Cure Moderate Wounds, Invisibility, Soundburst
3. Displacement, Good Hope, Haste, Cure Serious Wounds
4. Freedom of Movement, Cure Critical Wounds, Dimension Door, Hold Monster
5. Greater Heroism, Mind Fog, Greater Dispel Magic

Ranger

1. Jump

Enhancements (80 AP)

Swashbuckler (39 AP)

• Confidence, Swashbuckling, Uncanny Dodge, Panache
  1. On Your Toes III, Blow By Blow: Range III
  2. Deflect Arrows, Fast Movement
  3. Dashing Scoundrel, Resonant Arms III
  4. Slap in the Face, Battering Barrage II, Wind at my Back III
  5. Thread the Needle, Second Skin I, Exploit Weakness, Coup de Grace: Range

Dwarf (22 AP)

• Dwarven Toughness, Dwarven Constitution, Dwarven Toughness II, Dwarven Constitution II, Dwarven Toughness III
  1. Axe Training
  2. Child of the Mountain III, Axe Training
  3. Axe Training
  4. Axe Training, Throw Your Weight Around

Deepwood Stalker (19 AP)

• Far Shot, Sneak Attack
  1. Favored Defense III, Stealthy III
  2. Melee/Range Power Boost III
  3. Thrill of the Hunt III, Favored Hunter III, Aimed Shot

Destiny (24 AP)

Legendary Dreadnought

1. Extra Action Boost III, Attack Boost III, Constitution
2. Damage Boost III, Constitution
3. Critical Damage III, Haste Boost II
4. (none)
5. Devastating Critical
6. Master's Blitz, Headman's Chop

Twists of Fate (34 fate points)

1. Grim Precision (Tier 3 Shadowdancer)
2. Primal Scream (Tier 1 Fury)
3. Otto's Whistler (Tier 3 Shiradi)
4. Prism (Tier 2 Shiradi)
5. Rejuvenation Cocoon (Tier 1 Primal)

[unbongwah]

Be forewarned: unless they fixed it without updating the PNB, throwing axes don't work with IPS.

Improved Precise Shot does no attack roll with Throwing Axe weapon types.

Otherwise, you seem to be aware of the inherent DPS issues with this build concept, namely super-slow hit rate compared to shuriken builds and TYWA is an expensive flavor choice. I would definitely consider Killer a must-have; e.g., 18 dwarf (TYWA) / 23 DWS (max Killer) / 35 SB (CdG+TtN+EW) leaves 4 APs to tweak things.

EDIT: should definitely twist Whirling Wrists on any thrower build too.

[bobafettucine]

Be forewarned: unless they fixed it without updating the PNB, throwing axes don't work with IPS.

Otherwise, you seem to be aware of the inherent DPS issues with this build concept, namely super-slow hit rate compared to shuriken builds and TYWA is an expensive flavor choice. I would definitely consider Killer a must-have; e.g., 18 dwarf (TYWA) / 23 DWS (max Killer) / 35 SB (CdG+TtN+EW) leaves 4 APs to tweak things.

EDIT: should definitely twist Whirling Wrists on any thrower build too.

Yeah, Killer is something I was going to re-jig my enhancements for.
I didn't know about the IPS/throwing axe issue. That's a huge problem alright.

Ill probably keep this on file and play around with it a little more in expectation of a fix to IPS and maybe some throwing axe love in the future.

Thanks for the input!

Edit: Also remembered that SB requires light/no armour.

[Monroid]

Just saw your thread and thought it would make a really fun toon, I'm trying it out right now!!

[giftie]

I didn't know about the IPS/throwing axe issue. That's a huge problem alright.

Ill probably keep this on file and play around with it a little more in expectation of a fix to IPS and maybe some throwing axe love in the future.

Couldn't you just go with throwing hammers instead?

EDIT: Nevermind, forgot all named, LGS and TF throwing axes have enhanced base crit multiplier.

[unbongwah]

Couldn't you just go with throwing hammers instead?

Only if you're willing to accept a worse crit profile. Swashbuckling provides +1 crit multiplier bonus to all thrown weapons; but only throwing axes have a base x3 crit multiplier which becomes x4. [Nightforge Spike is the only non-throwing-axe named exception, AFAIK.] Headman's Chop also works with throwing axes, so you wind up 15-18/x4 19-20/x7 in LD with all relevant crit bonuses.

Since a better crit profile is the only advantage to a non-shuriken bard thrower build like this, you want to milk that for all its worth. So it's a darn shame IPS still doesn't work w/throwing axes.

[bobafettucine]

Since a better crit profile is the only advantage to a non-shuriken bard thrower build like this, you want to milk that for all its worth. So it's a darn shame IPS still doesn't work w/throwing axes.

There is also the much higher base damage, but point taken.

[C-Dog]

Such a shame, b/c a dwarf w/ throwing axes is so iconic (small "i"). Shuriken dwarfs ftw, I guess. :/

[trial4221]

Just tested this build on line with an old bard, IPS now works with the dwarven thrower, haven't tested other axes but its pretty nice.

[jakeelala]

So I've been doing lots of tests and trying to theory craft a build that would be terrible with anything other than Shuriken.

Sadly it can't really be done. However:
xIf you really want to throw axes, just mirror of glamouring a throwing axe and use a shuriken. It's really that far behind, there is no way to make it not a huge decrease in DPS due to the existence of Shuriken Expertise.

That being said, a bard shuri thrower with Shuriken Expertise can be quite good

[unbongwah]

That being said, a bard shuri thrower with Shuriken Expertise can be quite good

At which point you might as well do DEX-based drow for free proficiency and Shuriken Expertise feat. Presuming they fixed DWS Improved Weapon Finesse so it works with thrown weapons; otherwise I guess you're stuck with halfling for DEX to dmg.

[Zzevel]

Just tested this build on line with an old bard, IPS now works with the dwarven thrower, haven't tested other axes but its pretty nice.

If this were true it may work with other axes and also other weapon types?

[jakeelala]

At which point you might as well do DEX-based drow for free proficiency and Shuriken Expertise feat. Presuming they fixed DWS Improved Weapon Finesse so it works with thrown weapons; otherwise I guess you're stuck with halfling for DEX to dmg.

DWS Dex to Damage is 100% fixed for throwers