Anyone Try Improved Feint After the Revamp?

[Arkantios]

From what it looks like they definitely changed it a bit. It seems to be a single target melee attack, 6 second cool down and whatnot. However the bluff check isn't going off when I hit an enemy. Only when I purposely miss, or jump above the mobs and use it as to not hit any of them, does the bluff check occur. When it does occur however, it seems to bluff most things in a normal cleave range. Can I get some other input from other people that have tested it at all?

[unbongwah]

I haven't had a chance to test the new Imp Feint, but what you describe sounds like how it always worked: i.e., an AoE bluff which only works if you wait for the bluff effect to proc first then attack; if you attack too soon, you seemed to cancel the bluff. That delay - between when you used Imp Feint and when the bluff procced so you could attack - was always the most annoying thing about it, IMO, since it slowed your DPS (had to stop attacking to wait for the bluff effect) and if your timing was off you canceled the bluff.

[Dulcimerist]

I'm considering giving Improved Feint a try, and wondered if anyone could confirm whether or not this issue still exists. A few months ago I heard that Improved Feint was still getting its AoE bluff cancelled if an attack was made immediately after, but recently I heard that this issue had been fixed.

[Annex]

I am sure one of the better Rogue Assassins will be along to provide a detailed response but...I now use Improved Feint all the time. It is a great skill but sometimes produces strange results. For example, against an Enchanted Armor, Shiv works but Improved Feint does not. If you take it, make sure to raise Bluff as high as possible.

[nokowi]

I'm considering giving Improved Feint a try, and wondered if anyone could confirm whether or not this issue still exists. A few months ago I heard that Improved Feint was still getting its AoE bluff cancelled if an attack was made immediately after, but recently I heard that this issue had been fixed.

I wont be able to describe how it works perfectly, but I found it doubling my solo play single target damage in heroics while it was in effect, particularly at lower levels where it is tougher to get sneak attack through weapon/item abilities.

You should expect it to reliably give sneak attack damage against the mob you are attacking, and to be off timer about 1/2 the time. (so x2 half the time for +50% damage for a single target build).

I always have a target selected (using tab), and use single target attacks.


There could be additional benefit for AoE attacks, but I don't use them to judge this. By the time I kill a mob with single target dps, I don't find that I am getting sneak attack on any other mobs.

In group play, or with hire, you can always control getting sneak attack, so the benefit drops depending on how often you find yourself atatcking without sneak attack.

It definitely is worth taking in a heroic build - if you don't mind yet another button to continually use...

I haven't tested how much bluff (if any) skill you need, but I found it applying.

If the stealth/agro system was functional, I would be playing more and have better answers for you.

[Saekee]

it is awesome for solo play and leveling, maybe less interesting for an endgame raiding rogue that works in groups (I read something about endgame rogue in shadow_jumper’s thread foregoing this feat).

You bluff the target mob & all others in a 180 degree arc, so that is also a good defensive moment (they spin around). For TWF rogues, it seems to insert into the attack chain an extra mainhand attack—I feel like there is an extra ‘whack’ in there but am not great at testing these things.

I think a TA would do well to time it right before one of the AoE staff attacks so that you sneak damage a whole group before you.

It seems to have a lower DC, so to speak, than Shiv—the latter has landed for me even with poor bluff gear boosts whereas with Improved Feint, you really want the skill boost (in most heroics the Raven Eye set is almost enough).

It has a really short cooldown so it is hands-down my most common attack

[Dulcimerist]

Thanks for the feedback! I might give it a try after I epic reincarnate, testing it out on the next trip from level 20 to 30. I tend to only quest in groups, but situations definitely pop up where it could be a big help. I've maxed bluff and wear a +20 bluff item, plus a CHA tome and CHA item. I've got one spare feat slot, and Improved Feint might be better than Toughness or Weapon Focus.

In epics running Shadowdancer, I do already have too many special attacks to click on. Time to grow a third hand!

[HuneyMunster]

It seems to have a lower DC, so to speak, than Shiv—the latter has landed for me even with poor bluff gear boosts whereas with Improved Feint, you really want the skill boost (in most heroics the Raven Eye set is almost enough).

If I remember correctly I think Torc said at some point that Shiv does not have a save, so will be just as effective with 1 bluff as it would with 100 bluff. This is most probably why Shiv works on anything such as spiders and oozes, while Feint will just say immune.

[Saekee]

If I remember correctly I think Torc said at some point that Shiv does not have a save, so will be just as effective with 1 bluff as it would with 100 bluff. This is most probably why Shiv works on anything such as spiders and oozes, while Feint will just say immune.

That explains A LOT! thanks for the info

[nokowi]

Thanks for the feedback! I might give it a try after I epic reincarnate, testing it out on the next trip from level 20 to 30. I tend to only quest in groups, but situations definitely pop up where it could be a big help. I've maxed bluff and wear a +20 bluff item, plus a CHA tome and CHA item. I've got one spare feat slot, and Improved Feint might be better than Toughness or Weapon Focus.

In epics running Shadowdancer, I do already have too many special attacks to click on. Time to grow a third hand!

After you try it out, let us know what you think.

[Dulcimerist]

After you try it out, let us know what you think.

I finally remembered to post my feedback!

Improved Feint is working great! I've set all of my rogue special attacks to hotkeys on the number pad, so I can just button mash my way to victory. The "mostly harmless" message pops up when I hit Improved Feint, and the mobs are definitely bluffed with their backs turned toward me, even though I immediately attack again. As long as I keep seeing "mostly harmless" pop up while doing immediate attacks after Improved Feint, is it safe to assume that Improved Feint is properly working?

[HuneyMunster]

I finally remembered to post my feedback!

Improved Feint is working great! I've set all of my rogue special attacks to hotkeys on the number pad, so I can just button mash my way to victory. The "mostly harmless" message pops up when I hit Improved Feint, and the mobs are definitely bluffed with their backs turned toward me, even though I immediately attack again. As long as I keep seeing "mostly harmless" pop up while doing immediate attacks after Improved Feint, is it safe to assume that Improved Feint is properly working?

"Mostly Harmless" is the secondary effect of Bluff which is also applied when using Improved Feint that reduces threat from your attacks after use by 40% for 6 seconds. It proc's whether of or not the target is immune to bluff checks or makes it's save against bluff. If target is immune to bluff you will get the message "X cannot be influenced!". If you are seeing the target spin around(except red named) then you are successfully making your bluff check.


The biggest issue with Improved Feint is that outside of heroic and low level epics the bluff DC required is often between 100-120+ which is near impossible to get on a pure rogue without making huge sacrifices. This was due to changes in Bluff mechanic 2-3 years ago to prevent people to be able to pull single monsters from a pack instead of engaging in the entire pack. Also, the formular that was given for the change is incorrect as in particular casters are getting bonuses to their resistance to saves against bluff such as Abishai in Grim and Barret having DC of over 125. Its still possible with gear changes before using bluff to pull a target, but requires 2 to 4 pieces of gear swapping on your typical rogue combat gear setup.


The feat still has its uses in end game just for the threat reduction so that you don't pull agro off the party tank and lessons the need to slot threat reduction filigree on your weapon.

1> So I was hoping to get feedback on bluff difficulty. I can easily believe bluff resistant may be a little to aggressive, but we are trying account for itemization and encourage players to many throw a few enhancement points bluffs way. Madness... I know... given this has been free beer for so long. The formula for bluff resistant is the creatures level + (1 * quest level). Hard multiplies this # by 1.25, and elite 1.5. This may seem a bit much but our thinking is currently that "solo pulling" is a pretty powerful ability so we're trying to calibrate how much of a commitment a player needs to give to do it reliably.

-Torc

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...15#post5915515

[Saekee]

for TWF it seems to add an attack to the chain with the mainhand independent of all else

[DrawingGuy]

As others have mentioned, Improved Feint is a very good attack, but faces the issue of the nerfs Bluff got a few years back. If you're running 1-20, I'd list it as good enough to be a "must". The ability to turn an entire group of mobs is huge for survival not to mention the application of SA damage. The threat reduction portion keeps it useful even on Bluff immune targets in party to help keep aggro off you.

In Epics it is a bit of a tougher chew. It is tough to invest in Bluff as it usually takes a sacrifice to fit it in. I often solo during my leveling process, so it was worth it to squeeze in Bluff items to keep Imp Feint turns working. At end game, bluff DCs get quite high, so anything short of an all-out investment starts to fail quite often, so it becomes a question of whether you consider the threat reduction worth the cost of a feat.

My personal suggestion is take it at level 3 and use it until cap. Swap it out for the Rogue PL to boost Ethereal at 30. If you don't have past lives to compete for your feats, you can afford to just keep it.

[adrian69]

As others have mentioned, Improved Feint is a very good attack......

I like it, but in my experience it doesn't work well between like 14 and 27 and maybe less than half the time at cap with a bluff item. It seems to have a wonky animation and sometime I swear it does strike a second target, but I've never been able to tell for sure.