Reaper XP

[Elfishski]

Thats too bad. As many have posted making it fit the normal Bravery Bonus range in heroics would be so much more friendly towards making groups happen for many reasons.

Disagree, -1 to the many +1's on this.

If you would be running Reaper 1 at level to get full XP but are 2 levels over at BB then run Reaper 2 and your extra levels will probably make it easier and about the same XP because of scaling. I like that it encourages doing things at levels where they really are extremely hard, and I'm happy taking an xp hit if I can't handle it at a lower level.

I would recommend cutting the 50+... to be more like 10+... to make the scaling more linear, increase the multiplier by a fraction to compensate.


If you remove the stupid awful power creep trees that nearly everyone hated on first sight when unceremoniously dumped on us, and still hate even as they hopelessly chase after them, and replace them with something less power creepy (tree of only shared-timer clickies of various kinds you can fill out slowly gaining extra charges as you do), and an eternal ability to gain tiny amounts of hp/sp as gaining reaper xp, then by all means expand it to bravery bonus size. The trees continue to add a horrible taste to what is otherwise a real success in Reaper. Serious fail.

Or just shrink bravery bonus levels to match reaper bonus xp if that will make everyone happy that the grouping incentives are aligned... (...don't really do that, but it's where the corrupt-a-wish logically heads)

[KomradKillMachine]

Disagree, -1 to the many +1's on this.

If you would be running Reaper 1 at level to get full XP but are 2 levels over at BB then run Reaper 2 and your extra levels will probably make it easier and about the same XP because of scaling. I like that it encourages doing things at levels where they really are extremely hard, and I'm happy taking an xp hit if I can't handle it at a lower level.

I would recommend cutting the 50+... to be more like 10+... to make the scaling more linear, increase the multiplier by a fraction to compensate.


If you remove the stupid awful power creep trees that nearly everyone hated on first sight when unceremoniously dumped on us, and still hate even as they hopelessly chase after them, and replace them with something less power creepy (tree of only shared-timer clickies of various kinds you can fill out slowly gaining extra charges as you do), and an eternal ability to gain tiny amounts of hp/sp as gaining reaper xp, then by all means expand it to bravery bonus size. The trees continue to add a horrible taste to what is otherwise a real success in Reaper. Serious fail.

Or just shrink bravery bonus levels to match reaper bonus xp if that will make everyone happy that the grouping incentives are aligned...

Full of terrible ideas, please try again.

[Stormraiser]

Players are correct, over-level uses base XP. Modified the OP.

(My bad, you can bash me as I gave the bad info to Cordovan. Shouldn't be multi-tasking when creating player facing posts.)

Sev~

This is embarrassing.

1) A sincere question for you Severlin, what is your exposure to actually playing the game? Being in a quest, leveling, TRing, thinking, "wow just 500 more xp and I can level up use my shiny sword of good!"

I can understand how the information regarding a new mechanic could have gotten crossed. But to include chest loot bonuses, first day quest bonus, TR xp penalty, those are things that should have jumped out to anyone who has pulled up an exp report in a quest.

2) Can you address the nearly unanimous voice in this thread that is saying that the level related mechanic is: confusing, punishing to groups, conflicting with the BB system, unfair to level 20 characters who can't run level 18 or 19 quests at reaper? Can this at least be discussed internally? It seems the adjustment shouldn't be overly difficult, since the devs will have to research the code anyway to make sure they are intimately knowledgeable about it before they further post it (right?)

In a client service industry, the client just asked you to change something - what are you going to do about it?

Please don't use the term my bad, that's not very client facing, it also makes light of this incident.

Stormraiser

[Avocado]

Because it doesnt make sense.
So reaper xp is equal to: 50 + (3 * Base Challenge Rating of the Dungeon/Raid * Number of Reaper Skulls). So kobolds new ring leader takes all of 2 minutes and it is labeled as a long quest. You get base 94 xp reaper on r3. Take WGU in epic. You get base 363 reaper xp on r3. WGU also takes probably 2 hours on r3. Many epic quests take 10 times longer than any heroic quest yet they may award 3x the reaper xp. So, what is wrong with this picture? No wonder everyone who really wants reaper xp is tr'ing and doing heroics. Its more efficient by a factor of at least 10. There is no question that most anyone caring for reaper xp will tr. Another example: Spies in the house heroic = 88 base xp. Epic spies = 119 base xp (280 on reaper 10).

Dungeon level is not factor that affects completion time. So why use it in the calc?

How about: All epic quest's xp are scaled by 4-5x (roughly), right?. Do the same for reaper like this: 50 + (3 * Base Challenge Rating of the Dungeon/Raid * Number of Reaper Skulls) x 4. WGU now gives 1452 base reaper xp, that is slightly better for the 60x increase in complete time. Your formula is not logical nor does it ughhhhh "balance" epic and heroic play time. Reaper trees dont need more xp for epics tho.

OR

Just make reaper xp a factor of the base xp. Example for 1%. That is 90 xp on heroic (8253 base xp) and in epic (39,422 base) its 433 xp for spies in the house. Sure, that seems reasonable to me. Not 88 and 119.
To account for skull level just make it time 1 for reaper 1, x1.1 for reaper 2, x1.2 for reaper 2. and so on. Reaper 10 should give double reaper xp from reaper 1. Cancel the quest length multiplier because its not important.

[SirValentine]

Players are correct, over-level uses base XP. Modified the OP.

You modified the part about the base level, but you didn't fix this part:

Note that this is not a multiplier to all XP, but rather a penalty to total XP based on the base XP. It works the same way as the normal XP penalty.

It seems to currently be a multiplier to all XP, instead of just a penalty based on the base XP. It doesn't work the same way as the normal XP penalty.

[Elfishski]

Because it doesnt make sense.
So reaper xp is equal to: 50 + (3 * Base Challenge Rating of the Dungeon/Raid * Number of Reaper Skulls). So kobolds new ring leader takes all of 2 minutes and it is labeled as a long quest. You get base 94 xp reaper on r3. Take WGU in epic. You get base 363 reaper xp on r3. WGU also takes probably 2 hours on r3. Many epic quests take 10 times longer than any heroic quest yet they may award 3x the reaper xp. So, what is wrong with this picture? No wonder everyone who really wants reaper xp is tr'ing and doing heroics. Its more efficient by a factor of at least 10. There is no question that most anyone caring for reaper xp will tr. Another example: Spies in the house heroic = 88 base xp. Epic spies = 119 base xp (280 on reaper 10).

Dungeon level is not factor that affects completion time. So why use it in the calc?

How about: All epic quest's xp are scaled by 4-5x (roughly), right?. Do the same for reaper like this: 50 + (3 * Base Challenge Rating of the Dungeon/Raid * Number of Reaper Skulls) x 4. WGU now gives 1452 base reaper xp, that is slightly better for the 60x increase in complete time. Your formula is not logical nor does it ughhhhh "balance" epic and heroic play time. Reaper trees dont need more xp for epics tho.

OR

Just make reaper xp a factor of the base xp. Example for 1%. That is 90 xp on heroic (8253 base xp) and in epic (39,422 base) its 433 xp for spies in the house. Sure, that seems reasonable to me. Not 88 and 119.
To account for skull level just make it time 1 for reaper 1, x1.1 for reaper 2, x1.2 for reaper 2. and so on. Reaper 10 should give double reaper xp from reaper 1. Cancel the quest length multiplier because its not important.

I wouldn't make it a strict factor of the base xp just because it creates more variety in incentivising different quests if some have the best reaper xp/min and different ones have the best regular xp/min (though having reaper strictly favor short quests isn't ideal either given that with no reentry long quests are already much riskier, so more alternatives could be suggested), but I could definitely agree to changing the 3x for all quests to be 4 or 5x for epic and 5 or 7x for legendary.

And again, if the raw power in the trees (particularly DCs, not really a problem for general dps) was removed, they wouldn't be the must haves that they are for people wanting to group at a high level of play and people wouldn't be "forced" to seek the best reaper xp/min, they could just get it at whatever pace they get it from running their favorite content and not worry about it being a glacial pace.

[mikarddo]

Greetings!

We have had some questions about how Reaper XP is calculated, so I wanted to post some details about how we award it.

2.) We take the level of the highest party member and compare it to the base challenge rating. This creates a “spread” between the difficulty of the dungeon and the highest party member.

Once the spread is determined we apply the following penalty:

• If there is a 1 level difference: -20% of base XP.
• If there is a 2 level difference: -50% of base XP.
• If there is a 3 level difference: -70% of base XP
• If there is a 4 level difference: -80% of base XP
• If there is a 5 level difference: -90% of base XP.
• If there is a 6 level difference: -95% of base XP.

Note that this is not a multiplier to all XP, but rather a penalty to total XP based on the base XP. It works the same way as the normal XP penalty.

Sev~

Severlin,

As others have already posted this bonus is infact implemented multiplicatively rather than additively - which in turn means its a harsher penalty in almost all reasonable cases - and a much harsher one in the case of a first time bravery bonus run.

Would you please acknowledge that the game is not working as you describe and further let us know if this is being fixed (preferably soon)? Thank you for communicating - hopefully you will continue to do so even if it didnt go so well in this case

[mikarddo]

Disagree, -1 to the many +1's on this.

If you would be running Reaper 1 at level to get full XP but are 2 levels over at BB then run Reaper 2 and your extra levels will probably make it easier and about the same XP because of scaling.

Try your example with someone wanting to run R4 at elite level. They would need to run R9 at normal level instead which is a far cry from the same.

If Reaper isnt tough enough at elite level then make it intricically tougher - dont make the leveling scheme differ from the EBB scheme as that simply makes forming groups harder which is an unwanted side effect. Thats the downside you seem to ignore entirely.

[Elfishski]

Try your example with someone wanting to run R4 at elite level. They would need to run R9 at normal level instead which is a far cry from the same.

If Reaper isnt tough enough at elite level then make it intricically tougher - dont make the leveling scheme differ from the EBB scheme as that simply makes forming groups harder which is an unwanted side effect. Thats the downside you seem to ignore entirely.

Sure, if you're capable of running R4 at level, stepping it up to R9 is not the same, but the people arguing over XP are zerging Reaper 1 mostly.

I'm not ignoring that it makes forming groups harder, I think there's a reasonable debate to be had there and absolute merit in your argument on that front. However, pre-reaper all the incentives point in exactly the same direction - run quests on elite and no other difficulty in heroics two levels above base level.

What's most interesting to me is that since reaper was introduced the incentives have become sufficiently convoluted that LFMs are all over the place with people running reaper over level without BB, people running at the base quest level, some still running EBB, and more people putting up hard or normal LFMs too, because with the highest difficulty obviously out of reach the stigma of non-elite is diminished [or maybe I just never looked at heroic lfms before because it never made sense to not-solo in heroics and I didn't have the curiosity about what people are running that I have now?].

Maybe some of that is the major confusion about the opaque reaper xp modifiers after introduction and people trying it out for the first time and it will settle down to be base level only if the formula isn't adjusted, but it seems like having different levels for optimal reaper xp vs optimal regular xp might encourage more people to just play whatever seems reasonable on a day instead of just there being a single obvious way to run quests where challenge is minimized and all rewards are maximized at the same time.

[Seikojin]

Because it doesnt make sense.
So reaper xp is equal to: 50 + (3 * Base Challenge Rating of the Dungeon/Raid * Number of Reaper Skulls). So kobolds new ring leader takes all of 2 minutes and it is labeled as a long quest. You get base 94 xp reaper on r3. Take WGU in epic. You get base 363 reaper xp on r3. WGU also takes probably 2 hours on r3. Many epic quests take 10 times longer than any heroic quest yet they may award 3x the reaper xp. So, what is wrong with this picture? No wonder everyone who really wants reaper xp is tr'ing and doing heroics. Its more efficient by a factor of at least 10. There is no question that most anyone caring for reaper xp will tr. Another example: Spies in the house heroic = 88 base xp. Epic spies = 119 base xp (280 on reaper 10).

Dungeon level is not factor that affects completion time. So why use it in the calc?

How about: All epic quest's xp are scaled by 4-5x (roughly), right?. Do the same for reaper like this: 50 + (3 * Base Challenge Rating of the Dungeon/Raid * Number of Reaper Skulls) x 4. WGU now gives 1452 base reaper xp, that is slightly better for the 60x increase in complete time. Your formula is not logical nor does it ughhhhh "balance" epic and heroic play time. Reaper trees dont need more xp for epics tho.

OR

Just make reaper xp a factor of the base xp. Example for 1%. That is 90 xp on heroic (8253 base xp) and in epic (39,422 base) its 433 xp for spies in the house. Sure, that seems reasonable to me. Not 88 and 119.
To account for skull level just make it time 1 for reaper 1, x1.1 for reaper 2, x1.2 for reaper 2. and so on. Reaper 10 should give double reaper xp from reaper 1. Cancel the quest length multiplier because its not important.

It is convoluted because it is the same as normal questing exp calculations. That is why nothing on the bottom of the exp page matches what you get in the end. Because there are that many variables touching what you get.

Given the explanation, it looks like the exp system was called to be used in reapers difficulty offerings. Nothing that big or dramatic here. Quite the common practice in development. Just the base components of the formula are altered to match the scale at which they want exp to trickle out at.

The big problem though is putting together something fresh that would mesh with everything else. That is why developers and products typically take something they already have and repurpose it for something else. If they wanted to customize the exp train, the game would have had to have exp made as a system detached from everything else that can be tinkered and customized, similar to an xml schema is or a css is.

[nokowi]

Since it's pretty obvious no dev ran a single quest and looked to see if RXP matched what was posted, we can safely assume nobody ran a single quest at cap when they said RXP at cap was fine.

Please fix cap, so TR/ER for variety or additional past life feats vs staying at cap is an actual choice.

Please run a few quests and look at RXP per time at cap without the first time bonus before you tell us everything is great.

You can't have missed the many many posts where players said they want to test their characters at cap, or the players who just have no interest in TR/ER.

Please fix ooze/scorpion/spider auto-agro of all other mobs so that someone will play assassin at cap.

At level or above quests at cap should get the first time bonus every run, and still get a ransack penalty for repeated runs. This encourages running all quests, without penalizing anyone for being at cap.

[Vanhooger]

Since it's pretty obvious no dev ran a single quest and looked to see if RXP matched what was posted, we can safely assume nobody ran a single quest at cap when they said RXP at cap was fine.

Please fix cap, so TR/ER for variety or additional past life feats vs staying at cap is an actual choice.

Please run a few quests and look at RXP per time at cap without the first time bonus before you tell us everything is great.

You can't have missed the many many posts where players said they want to test their characters at cap, or the players who just have no interest in TR/ER.

Please fix ooze/scorpion/spider auto-agro of all other mobs so that someone will play assassin at cap.

At level or above quests at cap should get the first time bonus every run, and still get a ransack penalty for repeated runs. This encourages running all quests, without penalizing anyone for being at cap.

They never answered any of my post concerning endgame, nor I would expect they will answer to you. I kinda give up at this point, it's obvious they're only interested is TR system.

[MistaMagic]

As the title says.
So what challenge is running Reaper 2 levels over base?.
Our group started off running 1 level over base as that's what we understood was the max for Reaper bonus, when it became known we switched to Base and run on Reaper 3. We are now level 21/22 and still running Reaper 3.
Yes we do die but that's part of it and we accept it so PLEASE stop whinning and crying because its to tuff for you
If you cant stand the smoke get out of the kitchen.

[Vanhooger]

As the title says.
So what challenge is running Reaper 2 levels over base?.
Our group started off running 1 level over base as that's what we understood was the max for Reaper bonus, when it became known we switched to Base and run on Reaper 3. We are now level 21/22 and still running Reaper 3.
Yes we do die but that's part of it and we accept it so PLEASE stop whinning and crying because its to tuff for you
If you cant stand the smoke get out of the kitchen.

The biggest problem is the low player base, I did prove that already in different post last couple of days.

Try to get a party at level with 3 player in the whole server in range, that sound about fun. I had to give up doing my ETR at level as every lfm took about an hour to fill.

As well running overlevel quest R10 still challenging(way more then r10 at level low heroics), as I haven't seen yet a lvl 30 speedrunning with no death GH quest on r10.

And reaper = challenge then remove xp and tree, then I'm with you.

[MistaMagic]

The biggest problem is the low player base, I did prove that already in different post last couple of days.

Try to get a party at level with 3 player in the whole server in range, that sound about fun. I had to give up doing my ETR at level as every lfm took about an hour to fill.

As well running overlevel quest R10 still challenging(way more then r10 at level low heroics), as I haven't seen yet a lvl 30 speedrunning with no death GH quest on r10.

And reaper = challenge then remove xp and tree, then I'm with you.

Ok On Khyber there are at least 3 groups that I know of running Reaper 3 so my answer to you is:-

1) Change servers
2) If no to 1 then solo

[Ellihor]

As the title says.
So what challenge is running Reaper 2 levels over base?.
Our group started off running 1 level over base as that's what we understood was the max for Reaper bonus, when it became known we switched to Base and run on Reaper 3. We are now level 21/22 and still running Reaper 3.
Yes we do die but that's part of it and we accept it so PLEASE stop whinning and crying because its to tuff for you
If you cant stand the smoke get out of the kitchen.

Can you stop repeating this? This is a non-argument. The difficulty can be adjusted to match the 2 levels. There is no logical reason for the reaper and normal xp systems be in conflict. This is only happening because a team of developers that clearly don't know the game that is supposed to be their job did this.

[MistaMagic]

Can you stop repeating this? This is a non-argument. The difficulty can be adjusted to match the 2 levels. There is no logical reason for the reaper and normal xp systems be in conflict. This is only happening because a team of developers that clearly don't know the game that is supposed to be their job did this.

Where did I say this before?

[Ellihor]

Where did I say this before?

There is a quote function in online forums. What I mean "this" is what I'm quoting. Online forums 101.

[Eth]

Ok On Khyber there are at least 3 groups that I know of running Reaper 3 so my answer to you is:-

1) Change servers
2) If no to 1 then solo

3) Don't play DDO.

[MistaMagic]

3) Don't play DDO.

+1