Reaper XP

[bracelet]

I know you guys may well be set against this, but you should really consider making the level base for reaper the same as elite

Right now the player base is split into two camps. Those that want to do reaper with full reaper XP, and those that want to run BB 2 over level.

Once people figured out that there is a massive penalty for running 2 over, the reaver groups went from plentiful to channel-only almost over night. The LFM has gone back to slightly fewer BB runs on HE / EE.

If elite and reaper overlapped with no penalty, it would bring the reaper players back to the LFM.

[Cordovan]

So if i understand this correctly. For example now i have 4 reaper points on X-life toon. When i login after the change/hotfix i would have more reaper points with the same reaper XP ?

I think this depends on how it directly impacts Reaper XP. If it's a matter of TR'd characters needing more XP to hit the same point thresholds, then it - might - mean more Reaper Points once corrected. If it's a penalty applied to Reaper XP gained, then it wouldn't. We'll have to dig into it further.

[Roland_D'Arabel]

I think this depends on how it directly impacts Reaper XP. If it's a matter of TR'd characters needing more XP to hit the same point thresholds, then it - might - mean more Reaper Points once corrected. If it's a penalty applied to Reaper XP gained, then it wouldn't. We'll have to dig into it further.

Am I the only one who is totally confused by this True Resurrection penalty and the above answer by Cordovan?

The XP curve for normal XP requirements for 1st, 2nd and 3 plus lives is actually calculated as a penalty? And now this is applying to rXP?

It's like for years the players have been speaking one language and now we are learning that the devs are speaking a completely different language and everything is being lost in translation.

[Severlin]

Reaper XP was designed to use similar systems to normal XP. As such, the code winds through a bunch of normal XP code, and a bunch of Reaper specific code where we needed it to vary from normal XP. This list was compiled by going through the code itself to list everything that can modify Reaper XP. While technically accurate, I have referred to some bonuses that were removed from the game or that were implemented but never used on live servers.

I apologize for that.

~ The Chest Looted bonus is not used. The code refers to the bonus, but it was taken out a long time ago due to an exploit (as far as I can tell.)

~ The True Reincarnation penalty is a series of effects that reduce normal XP. The code accounts for them, but they are not used and I don't know if they were ever used. This bug would not affect normal TR'd players.

~ The hard lockout is a completely separate piece of code that uses the base challenge rating of the dungeon. The over level penalty described herein works like the normal XP overlevel penalty and is based on modified level of the dungeon. This means it is currently impossible to hit the 5 or 6 overlevel penalty due to the hard lockout.

I will modify the OP. I apologize for the confusion.

Sev~

[dunklezhan]

Reaper XP was designed to use similar systems to normal XP. As such, the code winds through a bunch of normal XP code, and a bunch of Reaper specific code where we needed it to vary from normal XP. This list was compiled by going through the code itself to list everything that can modify Reaper XP. While technically accurate, I have referred to some bonuses that were removed from the game or that were implemented but never used on live servers.

I apologize for that.

~ The Chest Looted bonus is not used. The code refers to the bonus, but it was taken out a long time ago due to an exploit (as far as I can tell.)

~ The True Reincarnation penalty is a series of effects that reduce normal XP. The code accounts for them, but they are not used and I don't know if they were ever used. This bug would not affect normal TR'd players.

~ The hard lockout is a completely separate piece of code that uses the base challenge rating of the dungeon. The over level penalty described herein works like the normal XP overlevel penalty and is based on modified level of the dungeon. This means it is currently impossible to hit the 5 or 6 overlevel penalty due to the hard lockout.

I will modify the OP. I apologize for the confusion.

Sev~

Ah the perils of being a producer and a coder. You just looked at the code and told us what it said rather than what it necessarily actually does, didn't you?

These things happen. Reaper is confusing anyway though so... try not to let them, eh?

Personally, I'm afraid I didn't understand half your first post anyway. All this talk of base XP and % increases based on total Xp...

Fortunately, the bit I did understand, and the bit that probably matters, is the bit where Reaper XP is based off elite quest difficulty in terms of working out the character level at which you start taking a hit on reaper XP. The skull penalty system starting at +1 character level over that does still kinda penalise the commonly accepted grouping range for BB though.

[LrdSlvrhnd]

I think this depends on how it directly impacts Reaper XP. If it's a matter of TR'd characters needing more XP to hit the same point thresholds, then it - might - mean more Reaper Points once corrected. If it's a penalty applied to Reaper XP gained, then it wouldn't. We'll have to dig into it further.

I have a 1st-life, 2nd-life, and 3rd-life character who've all done enough reaper stuff for at least 1 point. All three were 1K for the first, an additional 3K (4K total) for the second. I haven't particularly noticed any difference in the amount gained per quest, but that means absolutely nothing lol I have absolutely no idea what this "TR penalty" is.

I have no idea if this holds true for those who've TR'd *since* reaper content.

The "example" of an L20+ character getting "a little leeway" for L18 content needs a hard removal from the OP, since an L20+ character CANNOT get into a base-18 or -19 quest on Reaper mode, even with it being a "modified" level of 20 or 21. It doesn't matter how much of a penalty there is if you can't get in in the first place.

[Nyata]

[...]

Fortunately, the bit I did understand, and the bit that probably matters, is the bit where Reaper XP is based off elite quest difficulty in terms of working out the character level at which you start taking a hit on reaper XP. The skull penalty system starting at +1 character level over that does still kinda penalise the commonly accepted grouping range for BB though.

You did understand that part? holy father of dragons! because that is the part where my brain is trying to crawl into my armpit. especially since he uses a level 18 quest as an example with a level 20 character which has reaper lockout....

What I cannot wrap my head around is that apparently, the 'challenge rating' is based on elite, and yet if you... okay example.

I have a level 10 'normal' difficulty quest, so on elite that should be a level 12 quest. and if that is what the challenge rating is calculated on, I should be able to enter on a level 12 character with no penalty to reaper XP.
That is not the case though, a level 12 character is already taking the 50% penalty hit.

and this is where I feel that I am chasing my own tail.

[LrdSlvrhnd]

Fortunately, the bit I did understand, and the bit that probably matters, is the bit where Reaper XP is based off elite quest difficulty in terms of working out the character level at which you start taking a hit on reaper XP. The skull penalty system starting at +1 character level over that does still kinda penalise the commonly accepted grouping range for BB though.

Actually, if that's accurate (although I honestly have no reason to believe it *is* accurate, TBH) then no it doesn't... at least until epics. BB for, say, VoN 3 is L11, and Severlin makes it sound like the penalty would start at L12. In epics of course, it's Level +4, so VoN 3 (at L22, so L24 on EE/reaper) would have a BB of L26, but that would be a 50% penalty to reaper XP.

(Of course, this assumes that what Severlin said is at all accurate, which again, I have no reason to believe it is, based on my experience. Maybe it's what was INTENDED, but it certainly doesn't seem to be what is HAPPENING, as Nyata said.)

[SerPounce]

Reaper XP was designed to use similar systems to normal XP. As such, the code winds through a bunch of normal XP code, and a bunch of Reaper specific code where we needed it to vary from normal XP. This list was compiled by going through the code itself to list everything that can modify Reaper XP. While technically accurate, I have referred to some bonuses that were removed from the game or that were implemented but never used on live servers.

I apologize for that.

~ The Chest Looted bonus is not used. The code refers to the bonus, but it was taken out a long time ago due to an exploit (as far as I can tell.)

~ The True Reincarnation penalty is a series of effects that reduce normal XP. The code accounts for them, but they are not used and I don't know if they were ever used. This bug would not affect normal TR'd players.

~ The hard lockout is a completely separate piece of code that uses the base challenge rating of the dungeon. The over level penalty described herein works like the normal XP overlevel penalty and is based on modified level of the dungeon. This means it is currently impossible to hit the 5 or 6 overlevel penalty due to the hard lockout.

I will modify the OP. I apologize for the confusion.

Sev~

OK cool, this clarifies some of the oddities from the OP.

I think I've pretty much got it, the only thing I'm still not 100% about is when reaper uses the elite quest level (base + 2) and when it uses base. I'm thinking that it uses the elite level in the base xp formula, but uses the base level when determining over-level penalties? Is that correct?

[Vanhooger]

I'd agree with this. Change:

50+(3*BCL*Skulls)

to

50+(3*BCL*(Skulls*2))

That would make the following difference:

Level 2 dungeon (level 4 on elite):
1 Skull: 74
5 Skull: 170
10 Skull: 290

level 10 dungeon (level 12 on elite):
1 Skull: 122
5 Skull: 410
10 Skull: 770

level 20 dungeon (level 22 on elite):
1 Skull: 182
5 Skull: 710
10 Skull: 1370

Level 30 Dungeon (level 32 on elite):
1 Skull: 242
5 Skull: 1010
10 Skull: 1970

That makes 10 skulling a level 2 dungeon more XP than 1 skulling a level 30. (not accounting for quest length, of course, which would generally favor the higher level dungeons).

Because 10 skulling a dungeon, any dungeon, is way harder than 1 skulling a dungeon.

That would be a starting point, also bring back some endgame love.

But I'm sure they won't even consider it, as TR system is too important for them.

[Cordovan]

OK cool, this clarifies some of the oddities from the OP.

I think I've pretty much got it, the only thing I'm still not 100% about is when reaper uses the elite quest level (base + 2) and when it uses base. I'm thinking that it uses the elite level in the base xp formula, but uses the base level when determining over-level penalties? Is that correct?

Correct. It uses the Elite level for determining the Reaper XP Penalty incurred by being over-level compared to the Elite level of the quest. For quest entry lockout/access, it uses the Normal level of the quest.

[Nyata]

Correct. It uses the Elite level for determining the Reaper XP Penalty incurred by being over-level compared to the Elite level of the quest. For quest entry lockout/access, it uses the Normal level of the quest.

so is that how it is going to be after the patch? because right now it simply is not.

[TPICKRELL]

Greetings!
...
2.) We take the level of the highest party member and compare it to the effective challenge rating, like normal XP. This creates a “spread” between the difficulty of the dungeon and the highest party member. Note this uses the increased challenge rating based on elite, not the base challenge rating (in other words, the rating for Normal). As an example, a level 31 dungeon on Reaper has an effective level of 33; we use the 33 as the comparison.

A level 20+ character gets no Reaper XP for any dungeon less than 20. This leaves a little leeway, since dungeons with a base Challenge Rating of 18 would still have an effective level of 20. This check returns a penalty of -100%. That doesn’t mean you won’t get XP, just that your XP will be reduced by the full base amount.

Once the spread is determined we apply the following penalty:

• If there is a 1 level difference: -20% of base XP.
• If there is a 2 level difference: -50% of base XP.
• If there is a 3 level difference: -70% of base XP
• If there is a 4 level difference: -80% of base XP
• If there is a 5 level difference: -90% of base XP. Not possible to hit due to hard lockout.
• If there is a 6 level difference: -95% of base XP. Not possible to hit due to hard lockout.

...

Sev~

Sev theres still some confusion. Every time you speak about the overlevel penalty, you are saying things that indicate that the overlevel penalty starts at the Adjusted Quest level, but on live it starts at the base (ie normal level of the quest).

See:

Yes, it's confusing. Even after entering on reaper, it will show "elite" base which doesn't matter to reaper at all. If you enter with level 15 character into level 13 quest on r1, you'll get -50% reaper xp. I noticed yesterday that I was getting way more xp if I enter at base. After patch I decided to do a simple test. Rolled up a fresh iconic character at level 1. Entered ringleader in harbor (base quest level is 2) at R1. Killed 10 kobolds to see the xp report then left the quest and leveled up. The results were like this:

Level 1 character (below base) - 198 XP
Level 2 character (base quest level) - 198 XP
Level 3 character (+1, "hard" quest level) - 160 XP (-20%)
Level 4 character (+2, "elite" quest level) - 99 XP (-50%)

Are you reading the code that matches whats on live? Or are you saying this is how it will behave after an upcoming update? Or something else?

[Impaqt]

Correct. It uses the Elite level for determining the Reaper XP Penalty incurred by being over-level compared to the Elite level of the quest. For quest entry lockout/access, it uses the Normal level of the quest.

So people Streaking BB at +2 are getting no reaper XP Penalty?

[Sam-u-r-eye]

~ The hard lockout is a completely separate piece of code that uses the base challenge rating of the dungeon. The over level penalty described herein works like the normal XP overlevel penalty and is based on modified level of the dungeon. This means it is currently impossible to hit the 5 or 6 overlevel penalty due to the hard lockout.

I will modify the OP. I apologize for the confusion.

Sev~

+1 Thank you very much for the clarifications Sev (Cordo as well)

Nice job so far!~
We are loving the difficulty
Did a skull 4 mod and it was tough.
My favorite raid in the game is again a thing. Cheers!!!

[Kerthyn]

Wow this thread is confusing.

What i want to know and sure others want to know is that in game right now to get full reaper bonus you have to run quests at the same level as character level.
ie: level 22 character has to run a level 22 quest. Is this wai?

[dunklezhan]

You did understand that part? holy father of dragons! because that is the part where my brain is trying to crawl into my armpit. especially since he uses a level 18 quest as an example with a level 20 character which has reaper lockout....

What I cannot wrap my head around is that apparently, the 'challenge rating' is based on elite, and yet if you... okay example.

I have a level 10 'normal' difficulty quest, so on elite that should be a level 12 quest. and if that is what the challenge rating is calculated on, I should be able to enter on a level 12 character with no penalty to reaper XP.
That is not the case though, a level 12 character is already taking the 50% penalty hit.

and this is where I feel that I am chasing my own tail.

Oh, no, lol! I understood the one sentence where he just stated it. I didn't understand the longer explanation bit at all, just like you.

Nor am I saying its how its working now, either. I am however going to take it as a statement that this is how it should be working, and that therefore its going to be fixed. At least till there's another correction

I feel that a properly formatting table might go a long way towards explaining all this, you know.

And its always a bad sign when we get to that point in DDO. Cf. the new AC rules, MRR & PRR.

[bracelet]

Correct. It uses the Elite level for determining the Reaper XP Penalty incurred by being over-level compared to the Elite level of the quest. For quest entry lockout/access, it uses the Normal level of the quest.

I don't think this is right. In fact you said exactly the opposite in another post and even adjusted the release notes to match the new thing. Substitute "Normal" every place you said "Elite" in the above sentence and you will have a correct description of the current implementation on live.

I wonder if we are perhaps not getting this across to you guys. But I and others have verified that, for example, if you take a level 8 toon into a *base* level 6 quest on reaper (i.e. one that would be level 8 on elite), you will take a 50% hit to reaper XP.

This is just a really bad idea. It is splitting people off of the LFMs, not adding to them.

[Drwaz99]

Correct. It uses the Elite level for determining the Reaper XP Penalty incurred by being over-level compared to the Elite level of the quest. For quest entry lockout/access, it uses the Normal level of the quest.

That's absolutely not the case as it stands on live right now. Over-level XP penalties are based off "Normal" settings and not elite.

Seriously, you guys need to sit down and go through everything as this is virtually a disaster and I don't think you even see it. That's incredibly scary from a player/customer standpoint.

The more and more you try to sell it, the more confused and out-of-touch you, as a company look - especially when you come back and retract things you previously said - multiple times. It's like no one knows exactly what is going on. I would be incredibly embarrassed.

[Severlin]

Players are correct, over-level uses base XP. Modified the OP.

(My bad, you can bash me as I gave the bad info to Cordovan. Shouldn't be multi-tasking when creating player facing posts.)

Sev~